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(ABC)   Remember earlier in the week when the Senate blocked the renewal of the Patriot Act? Maybe not so much   (abcnews.go.com) divider line 437
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12375 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Dec 2005 at 12:18 PM (8 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2005-12-22 01:19:17 PM
VinDiesel: I didn't even realize there was an appeal right for something like that.

Visitors did until the Patriot Act came in. It's all part of the "closing the borders" ideaology I guess. Either way it means that if the immigration guy doesn't like the look of you, you're screwed, "The Terminal" stylee.
 
2005-12-22 01:19:34 PM
more fun with civics. can you guess which crazy country hatched these ideas?

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
 
2005-12-22 01:20:18 PM
crawlspace:

Oh yeah, anybody remember this guy? Let me remind you; Aldrich Ames. Busted spying for the russians. Clinton authorized busting down his door and searching/arresting without a warrant.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/sleeper/tools/lamberth.html

This speech was given by Judge Royce Lamberth, former presiding judge of the United States Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, to the University of Texas Law Alumni Association on April 13, 2002. Lamberth is the only FISA Court judge ever to have spoken publicly about the court. In this speech, he describes the FISA process and the changes to the law after the passage of the Patriot Act. He also discusses how FISA was used in the investigations of CIA mole Aldrich Ames and FBI spy Robert Hanssen.

I'm sure all of you recall the Aldrich Ames case, the CIA officer who was a Russian spy, and the key role the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court played in his case. The attorney general had also authorized physical searches of Ames's home, not pursuant to court order, that turned out to be very productive. Had Ames gone to trial, that would have been a hotly litigated issue. The president and the Congress wisely reacted by amending the statute to now require that physical searches for national security reasons also be authorized by the court. The court had authority all along to authorize physical entries to plant eavesdropping devices, but the court had never authorized physical searches for information. The amendment to the statute became effective just as I was appointed to the court in 1995, and Attorney General Reno presented to me at that time all physical searches that she had authorized for my review as to continuation. Many new legal questions were presented and resolved to the court's satisfaction.
 
2005-12-22 01:20:28 PM
It's an act too briskly forged by professional power-brokers parlaying fear that some seem to trust was born without defect. I do not. It's an American thing.
 
2005-12-22 01:21:07 PM
Vet_Curm

The bastard Democrats filibustered a few judges, so it's all their fault!!

Did they even get around to it with anyone? I know they threatened to.

And what about Harriet's up or down vote?
 
2005-12-22 01:21:21 PM
Re: roundblack

Stop that intruder. They're READING unsanctioned literature!

I thought we burned all those copies!! Don't listen to them!

Back to work, EVERYBODY!
 
2005-12-22 01:22:11 PM
I love reading from all the hippies who think you can hold hands, sing 'cumbaya', and everything will be OK if we just behave better.

If it's not too much trouble, please point out the civilization / society that did as you espouse and that survived and flourished? Thanks in advance...

There is only one way to defeat the enemy - you kill them.

/doesn't agree with everything GWB does
//agrees with a whole lot less of what his opposition is selling
///if Dems were in power now, we'd be defeated or they'd be wiretapping too
////Merry Christmas To All !!
 
2005-12-22 01:24:30 PM
Buffalo77, civil liberties lost? How about this one. Under the Patriot Act, law enforcement officials can go into a book store or library and request a record of every book you've bought or been lent. And the person who hands over this information is bound by law not to reveal it. Granted, you probably don't read, but I do and its none their &*^%$ business what I read. That's one example. I'm at work -- I don't have time for more.

/Give Me Liberty or Death!
 
2005-12-22 01:25:06 PM
OralB: What? Where's the republican utopia that we were promised?

They protected our right to have Christmas Trees and candy canes this year!!! Can you imagine what would have happened if the secular lieberals had their way??? Christians would be rounded up by UN world government troops and forced by Janet Reno clones into concentration camps to sing holiday carols and drink soy nogg.
 
2005-12-22 01:25:09 PM
pontechango: More wacko Republican Bullshiat.

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1994_rpt/ssci_ames.htm

The Senate Select Committee on Intelligence (hereinafter "the Committee") received its initial briefing regarding the case on the day the arrests were publicly announced. The facts contained in the affidavit supporting the arrest and search warrants were summarized by representatives of the FBI.



Thanks, Pontechango. I didn't want to have to look it up.

Now, crawlspace, if you would tell us WHERE you got your "facts" from or go crawling back to wherever you came from (I'm assuming it would be a "space")
 
2005-12-22 01:25:19 PM
Freedom chained
Civil liberties simply discarded
Millions of deaths for nothing apparently
Broken oath President
Broken moral compass
Using God as your weapon
Sickening acts from your position
Whining the Constitution is
NOTHING BUT A GODDAMNED PIECE OF PAPER
We the people are shouting
YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A GODDAMNED LIAR
Hijacked America for oil money
Crashed us for greed
Created a false war
Fighting an ism
Faceless boogey man
Forever in your control
Keep your servants scared
Stupid King W
Deception works well for a while
But the truth will be revealed
And you will be in chains
America weeps but can see
through your bullshiat
Careful your actions,
For you are quickly becoming
a hater of our freedom
 
2005-12-22 01:25:27 PM
I was waiting for one of the people like crawlspace to show up with his "if its not hurting you" arguement. That type of attitude sickens me. Americans should be concerned about everyones civil rights not just their own selfish selves.

People like that remind me of a story my dad told me when I was young. My dad was invovled in many civil rights marches and demonstrations when he was a young man. One day his rather racist uncle talked to him and said "Why are you doing this? You aren't a black." The uncle didn't use black he used another word that the fark filter won't allow but you get the idea. My dad answered because its the right thing to do.

Thats why we oppose these abusive laws. Not because it effects us personaly, though in some cases yes it does. But because opposing them is the right thing to do if you are a freedom loving American. Losing our civil rights, and yes these laws take them from us, is unamerican and we should never stand for it for any reason.
 
2005-12-22 01:25:35 PM
DaScotsman

True, killing the enemy is a very effective way to defeat them. However, the citizenry of this entire nation is not "the enemy."

I can remember when being a citizen meant something.
 
2005-12-22 01:27:14 PM
DaScotsman, go move to China -- You'll be 'safe' there.
 
2005-12-22 01:28:08 PM
I love it. Bush just admits to an illegal wiretapping enterprise, and instead of taking this oppurtunity to say: "holy shiat, what is happening to our country? Maybe we need to stop and consider these powers we are handing over to the Executive branch." the Senate caves in, and halts attempts to put the most miniscule limits on the Patriot Act ("hey, maybe we should look at this again in a few years."). Don't think for a second they'll put any limits on this thing during an election year. The Democrats would rather vote in the 3rd Reich than be called "weak on defense".
 
2005-12-22 01:28:47 PM
roundblack

Liechtenstein?
 
2005-12-22 01:30:16 PM
Buffalo77

Gosling exactly what civil liberties have you lost?

Ooo, ooo, let me try and field this one!

It's highly unlikely that my personal civil liberties have been violated either by the PATRIOT ACT or Bush's secret wiretapping that went over the head of the FISA court, but both still bug me. Why? Because the government is picking and choosing who's civil liberties to take away. It may not be me, but there are other Americans who are routinely having their liberties stripped because they may have affiliations with a terrorist organization (which in and of itself is a subjective definition, not that I disagree with the assessments made so far of al-Qaeda and other groups). You can't play the terrorism card and expect to have carte blanche when dealing with people. It's the same thing that happened in the 1950's with Communism ("I hold here in my hand...."), only this time there are no public hearings, no televised events, just people being spied on, arrested, and detained in secret.

The US Constitution guarantees certain rights to all Americans, and it guarantees that you get to keep those rights even if you've committed a crime. In fact, some of those rights are specifically aimed at people who've committed a crime! Why should you get to keep your guaranteed rights and someone else give them up just because the government decides to?

I guess what it boils down to for me is: What if tomorrow it's my rights that the government decides to arbitrarily takes away?

That's why I stand up protect my rights, and the rights of every other American.
 
2005-12-22 01:31:37 PM
DaScotsman

///if Dems were in power now, we'd be defeated or they'd be wiretapping too

I don't give a shiat what political party they belong too - get a farking warrant. Don't be so quick to hand over the rights so many have died to give you.
 
2005-12-22 01:31:51 PM
DontMakeMeComeBackThere: "I personally can't wait until the Dems elect the next president and then the world will be instantly transformed unto a wonderful utopia where all are kind and good."

Yes, and I'm looking forward too to dying in that blaze of fire whilst holding my head high because I supported what was morally good.

chaoscube:"Um, maybe you haven't heard, but the Patriot Act doesn't do anything to stop terrorists. All it does is erode or just destroy the civil liberties of a formerly free nation."

Yeah but hopefully a few prospective terrorists have been dug out of their warms beds late at night and beaten senseless without anyone knowing.

HappyDaddy:
Yeah, you the man!
 
2005-12-22 01:32:15 PM
OralB
And what about Harriet's up or down vote?

Bush's al-Qaeda torpedoed that.

(does anybody remember what al-Queda translates into English as? It works on multiple levels)

Did they even get around to it with anyone? I know they threatened to.

Under current rules, the actual filibuster doesn't take place, only the threat is raised, and that's really too bad.

The old version showed who had fortitude, stamina, lungs of iron, and most importantly, bladder control.
 
2005-12-22 01:32:41 PM
macfrugal: holy shiat, what is happening to our country? Maybe we need to stop and consider these powers we are handing over to the Executive branch.

Oh god no. If anything, Bush is even more vocal and arrogant about the abuses. He vows to continue the creepy surveillance and Constitution be damned! This is "war," as far as he's concerned...
 
2005-12-22 01:33:52 PM
ZipBeep:

Now, crawlspace, if you would tell us WHERE you got your "facts" from

Drudge, I'll wager. That reliable fount of conservative gossip.
 
2005-12-22 01:34:26 PM
Paschal: Buffalo77, civil liberties lost? How about this one. Under the Patriot Act, law enforcement officials can go into a book store or library and request a record of every book you've bought or been lent. And the person who hands over this information is bound by law not to reveal it. Granted, you probably don't read, but I do and its none their &*^%$ business what I read. That's one example. I'm at work -- I don't have time for more.


Not only that, they tried to use the Patriot Act to get info on Doctors who did abortions. The Doctors responded here: Association of American Physicians and Surgeons

Maybe the NeoCons need to look a little closer at this. They are always saying that nobody has read it, but apparently they HAVE read it, but don't UNDERSTAND it. Which is pretty typical of NeoCons, IMHO.
 
2005-12-22 01:35:06 PM
Here's the plan.

Extend it to the end of Bush's term. When Hilary is sworn in, she will have to start all over. That way when something happens it happens on her watch not Bush's.
 
2005-12-22 01:35:45 PM
Vet_Curm:

(does anybody remember what al-Queda translates into English as? It works on multiple levels)

I think it originally meant data-base. It's arabic for "rolodex of reactionaries".
 
2005-12-22 01:37:52 PM
DaScotsman: if Dems were in power now, we'd be defeated or they'd be wiretapping too


Please elaborate on this idea of our being defeated?

Who exactly is it that you believe would have defeated us by now had we not begun limiting the protections of the Constitution?

Please be specific, "terrorists" is not a valid answer.
 
2005-12-22 01:38:52 PM
DaScotsman: There is only one way to defeat the enemy - you kill them.


Who are these enemies? Everyone else in the world???

/Can't find the damn cartoon where the guy is standing in the middle of a bunch of corpses and says "I win!"
 
2005-12-22 01:39:17 PM
Lets just cut to the chase and make Bush king.
 
2005-12-22 01:39:47 PM
Paschal: HappyDaddy you are an IDIOT. Oh wait, you have been profiting since this adminstration has been in office. HappyDaddy, you are a very smart man.


I was profiting prior to the Bush presidency, am profiting now, and will profit after it has ended. Thanks for your concern.

pontechango

Have you caught on to the fact that Attorney General Reno authorized a warrantless physical search of Ames' residence before physical searches were allowed under FISA?
 
2005-12-22 01:41:40 PM
Long live King Bush!

hmmm...where's that good bush/bad bush pic?
 
2005-12-22 01:41:57 PM
pontechango: They protected our right to have Christmas Trees and candy canes this year!!! Can you imagine what would have happened if the secular lieberals had their way??? Christians would be rounded up by UN world government troops and forced by Janet Reno clones into concentration camps to sing holiday carols and drink soy nogg.


Christmas??? Dammit, you mean "Happy Winter Sparkle Time!!!" :D
 
2005-12-22 01:42:05 PM
pontechango
I think it originally meant data-base. It's arabic for "rolodex of reactionaries".

That's good.

I like "fanbase of fanatics" too.
 
2005-12-22 01:43:06 PM
HappyDaddy: Have you caught on to the fact that Attorney General Reno authorized a warrantless physical search of Ames' residence before physical searches were allowed under FISA?


Let's get a link to that.
 
2005-12-22 01:43:44 PM
Let's get a link to that.

Or, you know, you could look it up your damn self.
 
2005-12-22 01:44:23 PM
Have at it.

Google Ames + "warrantless search"
 
2005-12-22 01:45:12 PM
HappyDaddy

Have you caught on to the fact that Attorney General Reno authorized a warrantless physical search of Ames' residence before physical searches were allowed under FISA?

Regardless of whether that's true or not (and I'd have to dig into the subject elsewhere...I mean no offense that I don't simply take you at your word since this is a hot-button issue at the moment), it didn't make it right then, and it doesn't make it right now.

The excuse that someone else committed the same crime holds no water to me. It doesn't hold any water in court, either.
 
2005-12-22 01:45:18 PM
HappyDaddy

I didn't know that you were a lawyer, color me surprised. >:/

With your obvious knowledge of the Constitution, how can you stand behind any piece of legislation that could be used to encroach upon the rights of innocent people?

Question: Do you believe that Americans possess a Constitutionally protected "right to privacy"?
 
2005-12-22 01:45:54 PM
If memory serves, those noble Romans tried the whole "kill thy enemy most verily dead" to keep the peace and ....well... lost. Somehow we need to walk a fine line between appeasment and war-and lets be honest, it ISNT an easy choice to make considering the nightmare that is human history(I went for drama there). The Romans made themselves so hated that Alaric slid into Rome on a carpet of germanic dead-the numbers of casualties inflicted by the empire in the ages past gave him more power over his people and made his job much more a crusade then it needed to be.

All hail Alaric for President.
 
2005-12-22 01:46:19 PM
I was just thinking...Maybe we should extend the Patriot Act permanently. It does protect us from terrorists after all, meaning those who act outside the law and spread fear.

We NEED the Patriot Act to protect us from, and to prosecute Bush, Cheney, the crew, Gonzales, Asscrack (frm attorney general), and that joker Limbaugh. If only we had the Patriot Act when Reno was in office!

Save the Patriot Act before it's too late.

//i know, i know: lame joke.
//need to go back to comedy school
 
2005-12-22 01:46:21 PM
Gosling, how exactly are the dem's pWnd when they were the ones pushing for the short term extension?

This short term extension is a good thing, for everyone. The patriot act provides a set of good and powerful tools, along with a set of poorly written provisions that remove necessary judicial oversight that potentially remove our freedoms. The patriot act can be fixed, and should be fixed instead of just scrapped entirely. This gives politicians time to fix it, instead of rushing to a purely political vote for the rest of the week.

Of course, we'll probably just be in this situation in 6 months again, but I'd like to hope that we can make meaningful progress towards a patriot act that makes the groups that protect us more agile while not harming our freedoms.

\naive

In reality though, whatever gets passed, Bush wiil just go outside the law.
 
2005-12-22 01:46:42 PM
DrLong

Yes, and I'm looking forward too to dying in that blaze of fire whilst holding my head high because I supported what was morally good.

...

Yeah but hopefully a few prospective terrorists have been dug out of their warms beds late at night and beaten senseless without anyone knowing.


Unfortunately, because of the Patriot Act the Feds were monitoring what you wrote, misunderstood that your wanting to die in a blaze of fire did not mean that you were going to "suicide bomb" US citizens, and now will treat you like you want the terrorists to be treated.

/Well, kinda.
 
2005-12-22 01:46:47 PM
Last week the press secretary said Bush would veto an extension. He wanted the whole enchilada.

Now the senate has called his bluff. Watch for the pussy flip flop. Scotty has already refused to use the "V Word" again, because he knows Bush has already been totally pwn3d.
 
2005-12-22 01:47:05 PM
 
2005-12-22 01:47:11 PM
HappyDaddy: Have at it.

Google Ames + "warrantless search"



Ames was acting as a foreign agent, which according to FISA makes a warrant unnecessary as far as I understand.
 
2005-12-22 01:48:22 PM
HappyDaddy:

Have you caught on to the fact that Attorney General Reno authorized a warrantless physical search of Ames' residence before physical searches were allowed under FISA?

Have you caught onto the fact that FISA allows 72 hour retroactive warrants? I don't know the details but it's pretty obvious from Lamberth's statement that the court and Congress were fully-informed and affirmed the searches.
 
2005-12-22 01:48:25 PM
Hender

you are almost right. the constitution gaurantees these rights to all people. regardless of their geographic location.

it sickens me that we are so quick to throw away civil rights for people that were not fortunate enough to be born inside the US.
 
2005-12-22 01:51:06 PM
I am going to tell you people how to figure out whether or not you actualy agree with the patriot act:

http://news.findlaw.com/cnn/docs/terrorism/hr3162.pdf
(this can be found on GPO, and in many other places, I just used this link because I don't remember where I found the copy that I have on my computer)

there's your patriot act's full text. Some of you mouth-breathers may be put off by the sheer size of the thing; I know how you all feel about reading things that are long and boring, but these are the laws that govern you; you should know them, so take the time to read them.

To find the sections of the USC that are being talked about, and changed, go here:

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/uscode/

if you want to search for a code, use this as an example
Title 50 of the USC section 1702 could be found by searching "50USC1702"

Form an educated opinion, as opposed to just thinking what the TV tells you to think. I am not a lawyer, nor a politician, I am just some guy who's sick of listening to 'journalists' and media outlets sensationalize the most mundane and useless stories in order to get you to tune in to their commercials.

Every little piece of factual information you learn makes you a more worthwhile person. People dislike me because of the contempt that I hold for their ignorance, but this does not matter to me. Uneducated/partially educated opinions on matters of law and science often do more harm than good.
 
2005-12-22 01:51:46 PM
pontechango: Drudge, I'll wager. That reliable fount of conservative gossip.


That shows you how these wingnuts manipulate the facts. The authorization from Clinton is ONLY on foreign intelligence and only in cases where no US citizen is likely to have

By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States, including sections 302 and 303 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 ("Act") (50 U.S.C. 1801,
et seq.), as amended by Public Law 103- 359, and in order to provide for the authorization of physical searches for foreign intelligence purposes as set forth in the Act

From Drudge via the Washington Post: to "places where you wouldn't find or would be unlikely to find information involving a U.S. citizen"


Apparently, he doesn't even READ what he writes, or, again, doesn't understand it.
 
2005-12-22 01:52:02 PM
Immaculate_Misconception: Ames was acting as a foreign agent, which according to FISA makes a warrant unnecessary as far as I understand.


Let me further qualify that by stating that I know there is still judicial review in the process.
 
2005-12-22 01:52:34 PM
asdfbeau

Are you the comic book guy? Cuz if you are, you need to put "..." thingies between your words.
 
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