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(Fark)   Bush speech discussion thread. Please keep hands and feet inside ride at all times. LGT a very important piece of paper   (law.emory.edu) divider line 1235
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10134 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Dec 2005 at 8:32 PM (8 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2005-12-18 09:50:30 PM
RooBoy

Just for you:

 
2005-12-18 09:50:32 PM
Weaver95: Was spying on US citizens without a search warrant issued by a court really legal?

The scariest concept to ever come out of the 'war on drugs' was the concept of 'secretive warrants' that allowed for covert wiretaps of drug suspects.

I always thought that particular bit of legal code would wander into other areas.



There's a pretty huge difference between a 'secretive warrant' and no warrant at all Weaver95. Let's try and compare apples to apples, shall we?
 
2005-12-18 09:50:51 PM
Weaver95: The scariest concept to ever come out of the 'war on drugs' was the concept of 'secretive warrants' that allowed for covert wiretaps of drug suspects.


Actually, secret warrants have been around since before the War on Drugs - specifically FISA (1978). But in every case, you must still get a warrant.

You can get it up to 72 hours after you start surveillance.
You can keep it a secret for ever.
But you must get a warrant.

The scary thing about the NSA spy thing is that it specifically was warrantless search of US Citizens on US soil. Which appears to be illegal, but Bush is justifying under plenary Presidental powers during times of War.

Except, of course, that sort of thinking was struck down by the Supreme court after the Civil War.
 
2005-12-18 09:51:25 PM
General quasi-paranoid question:
Is there a way of checking if you're being checked on by the government?
 
2005-12-18 09:52:17 PM
anybody else like the paula abdul + peter griffin duet??

"..i'm dressed like a cat"
 
2005-12-18 09:52:52 PM
Dinki: Weaver95: Just google for the Patriot Act and read *all* of it.

Good luck with that. Didn't most of the people who voted for it give as the excuse for not reading it that it's just too voluminous to read?
 
2005-12-18 09:53:16 PM
SAAAAAAD.
 
2005-12-18 09:53:25 PM
mychihuahuas: General quasi-paranoid question:
Is there a way of checking if you're being checked on by the government?


Easy. Call the FBI and ask for a copy of your file under the FOIA. If they already know your address, you're being spied on.
 
2005-12-18 09:53:28 PM
This speech should've been made like 3 years ago; its too late to try convince us of his "plan" now.
 
2005-12-18 09:53:28 PM
Weav:

Make you a deal. You either quote the USAPATRIOT act that authorizes the President to do what he did or admit it's the provision of FISA where he broke the damned law.
 
2005-12-18 09:53:33 PM
Oktoberain

And what a fine, Godless POS you are.

/fark you.
//I like my odds.
 
2005-12-18 09:53:51 PM
THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION LOST THE WAR, NOT THE CRITICS.

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED?
 
2005-12-18 09:53:56 PM
No, mychihuahuas, thats the whole point of why Bush wants to bypass judicial review. He wants no one to know who he's spying on, even conservative federal judges with top secret clearance.
 
2005-12-18 09:54:17 PM
MadMattressMack: You forgot: Snake! Snake! Snake! Snake


no we elected tham
 
2005-12-18 09:54:32 PM
coachwdb: I wish George H.W. Bush would have pulled out of Barbara.


hilarious. thats a t-shirt there.
 
2005-12-18 09:54:57 PM
This was done by the NSA, which is covered by FISA.

Or so we assume. To date, nobody is really sure just who's directly responsible for oversight on the NSA. Hell, the memo authorizing their creation is still classified as is large portions of their charter.

For all we know, this WAS covered under the Patriot act....which brings me to my next point - namely that it's virtually impossible to voice even reasonable concerns about what the NSA and/or CIA are up to without coming off sounding like a kook.
 
2005-12-18 09:54:57 PM
2005-12-18 09:44:17 PM Tapakip


anyone? anyone at all?

anyone watching family guy know what that pinball segment with stewie was referencing? the 123456789101112 thing. i remember it, but i have no idea why.





It's from Sesame Street.
 
2005-12-18 09:56:13 PM
Who is this mystery guest, bubba oreally?

Just some troll, lying under the bridge.
 
2005-12-18 09:56:29 PM
Weaver95:

Think of them as seperate quantum realities, each evolving/changing depending on the observers.

Weaver wins
 
2005-12-18 09:56:48 PM
Make you a deal. You either quote the USAPATRIOT act that authorizes the President to do what he did or admit it's the provision of FISA where he broke the damned law.


Declassify the entireity of the NSA charter and the excutive order that was the basis for their creation and then I can go back over the law and give you an answer.
 
2005-12-18 09:57:05 PM
2005-12-18 09:47:58 PM barneyfifesbullet [TotalFark]
I laughed at Bush's begging.
He sounded like he was trying to unload the worst used car on the lot on a sucker buyer. Pathetic.


Here here, first he insulted and labeled a lot of us, and then he starts begging us to push our views aside and support his actions, what an asshat. And I would like to point out Mr. President that you don't suffer the consequences all by yourself, AirForceVet has clearly pointed out those that really suffer.
 
2005-12-18 09:57:12 PM
bubba oreally:
"And what a fine, Godless POS you are."
---

Takes one to know one, you fishwallet.
 
2005-12-18 09:57:12 PM
MightyTribble: Actually, secret warrants have been around since before the War on Drugs - specifically FISA (1978).

The War on Drugs started in 1971. At least that's when Nixon launched his "all out offensive" in the "War on Drugs" (his words).
 
2005-12-18 09:57:14 PM
So who wins teh flamewar ?
 
2005-12-18 09:57:34 PM
orrinbloquy: Make you a deal. You either quote the USAPATRIOT act that authorizes the President to do what he did or admit it's the provision of FISA where he broke the damned law.

can we stop arguing over little things and just agree that what the president did was morally reprehensible and, if not inviolation of the strict LETTER of the law, was in violation of the very SPIRIT of what the constitution stands for?
 
2005-12-18 09:57:45 PM

Congratulations Republicans...

you lost the war.
 
2005-12-18 09:57:52 PM
This president sucks monkey. A monkey that's past his prime!! If you still believe that he is doing what is right, then you are a complete retard. It's that simple folks. He is worthless as a leader. His buddies are getting rich off of this war. We are going to be paying for his mistakes for decades. Thank you very much anyone who voted for him. And if you did then you are an even bigger tool then he is. If you truly love this country like some of you neocon farksticks claim to, you will write your congressman/woman and demand that this administration be held accountable for every fcking thing that they have done.
Bush, Dick, Condi, Rummy, and the rest of the flunkies should be locked away. They should be forced everyday to recite the names of the American military personnel who have perished in their worthless little war. They should be forced to write personal apology letters to the families of the deceased. The collective mass of wealth from each of their families should be liquidated and given to the families of the deceased.
You'll see. The longer this goes on, the more you will agree with me on this. A simple prison term is too good for these bastards. What they are doing to this nation and to the world is reprehensible.
Ask yourself this: Who is worse, those commiting the murders? Or those making a profit from the murders?

The American military should never be treated as toy soldiers in a sandbox. God bless the American military. They serve dutifully, and it is our duty to make sure they arent treated like this.
 
2005-12-18 09:57:59 PM
mychihuahuas: Is there a way of checking if you're being checked on by the government?

Sure, open Outlook or whatever scheduler app you use and put in a new task entitled "Kill the President". If the secret service or fbi show up the next day, then you know they're watching you.
 
2005-12-18 09:58:21 PM
MightyTribble
Are you kidding? Is it that simple? I'm not just being stupid on this point to be cute, though I admit I am ignorant on this point. Can you really just call the FBI and get the information about whether they are spying on you? Is there a number for the NSA also?

/all these questions are asked in earnest
//I am not being cute as I've been often accused of being
///Thank God for slashies otherwise the true meaning of this message would be lost
 
2005-12-18 09:58:33 PM
AirForceVet
Just you prissy. I don't believe you ever belonged to any military force, much less our USAF. You, Madamme appear to be a little week in the knees.
 
2005-12-18 09:58:51 PM
Weaver95: namely that it's virtually impossible to voice even reasonable concerns about what the NSA and/or CIA are up to without coming off sounding like a kook.



I think we may be in the middle of a sea change in that regard. The simple fact is almost everyone supports intelligence gathering, but the agencies never seem to know where to draw the line. And if the administration doesn't draw it for them, then things like this happen. The same thing happened in the 60's.
 
2005-12-18 09:58:59 PM
Tapakip: anyone watching family guy know what that pinball segment with stewie was referencing? the 123456789101112 thing. i remember it, but i have no idea why.

It's Sesame Street from the early years (I see that segment at least a few times a month :-P), but since the same people did Electric Company I can understand some crossover.
 
2005-12-18 09:59:30 PM
It's unknown whether or not Bush's power grab for spying on Americans was either legal or illegal.

But it certainly should be discussed, and more importantly, investigated.
 
2005-12-18 09:59:50 PM
they just bleeped out "cock"...
 
2005-12-18 09:59:50 PM
orrinbloquy: Takes one to know one, you fishwallet.


GIS for "fish wallet"
 
2005-12-18 09:59:53 PM
Weaver95

Not unless you wanna pay me to be your research assistant.

Just google for the Patriot Act and read *all* of it


Well you were the one making an affirmative assertion so I assumed you had some basis to do so. The Patriot Act isn't a carte blanche to do whatever the president wants. It expanded some powers, but not completely. I've read a lot of it (it is monsterously long) and don't remember seeing anything about this. In fact, quite the opposite. There are procedural protection built in to most of the expansions that were not followed in this case.

I HAVE read the FISA (as amended by the Patriot Act) and the ECA (as amended) and what he did isn't authorized by either of those.

So, unless you can show me otherwise, I will continue to maintain that it was illegal.
 
2005-12-18 10:00:17 PM
mychihuahuas: MightyTribble
Are you kidding? Is it that simple? I'm not just being stupid on this point to be cute, though I admit I am ignorant on this point. Can you really just call the FBI and get the information about whether they are spying on you? Is there a number for the NSA also?

/all these questions are asked in earnest
//I am not being cute as I've been often accused of being
///Thank God for slashies otherwise the true meaning of this message would be lost



I'm sorry, I was kidding. :)
/You can file a FOIA for your FBI file, though
//won't tell you if they're secretly spying on you
///Curses, Foiled Again!
 
2005-12-18 10:00:58 PM
In this speech, Bush really seemed like he wanted to level a threat at people who don't support him, but all he was allowed to do is call them "defeatist."
 
2005-12-18 10:01:19 PM
The same thing happened in the 60's.

Yeah, but they had STYLE back then! Paying hookers to dose random johns with LSD so you could study the effects had a certain 'james bond-esque' evil villian panache to it.

/MKULTRA
 
2005-12-18 10:01:56 PM
I missed the speech, did he admit that he lied America into the war and then lost the war because he is an incompetent drunken moron and can't do shiat right?

Because that is the speech I am waiting for.
 
2005-12-18 10:02:02 PM

MR. RUSSERT: The law is very clear that a person is guilty of an offense unless they get a court order before seeking to wiretap an American citizen. Why did the president not get a court order?

SEC'Y RICE: The FISA is indeed an important source of that authority, and in fact, the administration actively uses FISA. But FISA, in 1970...

MR. RUSSERT: The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.

SEC'Y RICE: The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, exactly. FISA, which came out of 1978 at a time when the principal concern was, frankly, the activities of people on behalf of foreign governments, rather stable targets, very different from the kind of urgency of detection and thereby protection of a country that is needed today. And so the president has drawn on additional authorities that he has under the Constitution and under other statutes.

MR. RUSSERT: What are the other authorities?

SEC'Y RICE: Tim, again, I'm not a lawyer, but the president has constitutional authority and he has statutory authorities.

MR. RUSSERT: But no one's explained that.
 
2005-12-18 10:02:19 PM
AirForceVet: You take point first, by tearing up your National Socialism card.

Man, what class and style. You called me a Nazi. Let's see you expand your mind and call me something more high-brow, like a "Neo-Con" or a "Bush-Bot".

If you are a true vet, you are a shame to the service.
 
2005-12-18 10:02:24 PM
Fark = We really don't like Bush because he's a warmonger we hate the oil industry Republicans are all criminals he's stupid.

You know, rational thought and everything...

I'd love to know how many of you made up your minds about this speech before you knew what he was going to say.
 
2005-12-18 10:02:53 PM
Well you were the one making an affirmative assertion so I assumed you had some basis to do so

I do. I'm just not interested in spending an hour digging up the links and pasting them into a fark web forum so they can be promptly ignored by all concerned.

If you can't be bothered to do your own damn homework, I'm not gonna do it for you.
 
2005-12-18 10:03:34 PM
 
2005-12-18 10:03:35 PM
fish wallet:
 
2005-12-18 10:03:38 PM
I have an honest question to ask of you all:

Do you want us to be successful in Iraq?

A simple yes or no will do.
 
2005-12-18 10:03:55 PM
Defeatism and despair, huh? Hell, I've gone through middle school. I was the guy that got picked on. THAT is despair. What the anti-war people are engaging in is realism. (And some insanity, but those are the trolls. You get them on both sides of every issue.)
 
2005-12-18 10:04:08 PM
You know, that idiot Dumbya is doing things that the old soviet KGB could only dream about.

I'm so glad he's protecting my freedoms. Otherwise, there'd be people demanding my papers when I travel, or reading my mail, or tapping my phones, or placing my name on secret 'no fly' lists, or holding me in prison without charges or legal representation. I'm glad he believes in open and transparent government and that he understands a democracy depends on our public offices being open to public scrutiny and public input.

//sarcasm


The sad thing, it used be that elected officials served in *public* office and represented *private* citizens. When did this idea get so peverted?
 
2005-12-18 10:04:18 PM
 
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