bark_at_the_moonbat... what...?

Vet_Curm , Sloth_DC,

How about we use both publicly audited software and a voter verified paper trail? Two layers of security are better than one.

I do think it is important to have a voter verified paper trail for the indefinite future. Perhaps, if a well audited piece of code proves to perform perfectly there may be a way to eliminate it for cost savings later. However, for a relatively new system like touchscreen voting, I think verification is extremely important. How else will we know how good it is working?

One of the problems with the above thread is that exit polls are right now our best source of feedback about the integrity of election methods. That's a pretty crappy method of feedback. Verification is used in other technical fields where accuracy is important, like cancer treatment. It should be used in something as important as elections.

What?

Huh?

Actually there were more than two choices

/Green party
//Libertarian party
///lolz

Geeks2themax: US vs. THEM. Most definitely. Haven't seen much to prove other wise.

damn. i better keep looking. it makes me sad that people forget to talk to each other. rationally.

Barnstormer: I find it sad that the candidates themselves will spend 8 figures each on running their campaigns but it's not considered essential or even cost effective to design and deploy the most trustworthy voting machines possible.

Have you contacted your State legislature with your concerns? The figures on what the candidates spend aren't particularly relevant, since they don't buy the equipment.

Vet_Curm: The voting stations might not have to be sealed if a program change could only be done by replacing the write-once memory chips in it. None of this reprogramming on the fly stuff that Diebold was guilty of in Georgia.

True, and relatively simple. Plus it just makes sense - there should be _no_ reason why the code should change just before an election, and _no_ way to change the code just after an election.

I surrender. I hereby pledge allegience to yearly liberal conspiracy theories.

As in 2000 - The blacks were kept from the polling stages! Recount! Wait, you did? Count em again!

and 2004 - The machines in Ohio made Bush win! This evil CEO somehow implanted code into his machines that took points from Kerry and gave them to Bush! omg omg omg!

and in 2008 - God I don't wanna know.

I fail to see how you somehow attribute those failures to Clinton
(in regard to recession and dot-com bubble)

You fail,krysith, because he didn't attribute the recession to Clinton. He stated, factually, that the US was starting a recession before Bush took office. He never said it was Bill's fault.

thanks for playing

nwarlick: I surrender. I hereby pledge allegience to yearly liberal conspiracy theories.

There's something severely farked up when Big Government Party D (as opposed to Big Government Party R) is referred to as "liberal". Perhaps we've lost sight of what liberalism is...

Crazy ass left-wing conspiracy theorists. Happy?

nwarlick

Why is it so hard to believe? It HAS happened before and it will happen again. It is not absurd, regardless of what you may think and want.

Sloth_DC: I believe what he's saying is that good Democrats are quick to make allegations of Republican fraud on flimsy evidence, but loathe to acknowledge glaring evidence of Democratic fraud. Sadly, you're kinda reinforcing his point.

If someone who promised a president a sure win in a state, and is a maker of voting machines AND resigns just before an investigation. wouldn't that make you suspicious?

/knows from experience that this kinda stuff will take at least 2 years to sink in.

BEER!



You all lose. ... or do you?

whyfartsarelumpy

Um, no you fail, because I was not the person you were talking to. I think you were looking for BlueGargoyle.

krysith
How about we use both publicly audited software and a voter verified paper trail? Two layers of security are better than one.

Indeed, although I would feel better if the equipment to process (not produce) the paper trail was manufactured by an entirely distinct and separate company.

One of the problems with the above thread is that exit polls are right now our best source of feedback about the integrity of election methods. That's a pretty crappy method of feedback. Verification is used in other technical fields where accuracy is important, like cancer treatment. It should be used in something as important as elections.

Also agreed, but maintaining voter anonymnity throughout the process does significantly complicate matters. It's like voter anonymnity and cast vote verifiability(and hence integrity) are on opposite sides of a see-saw.

/Plus the current Lt. Gov. of Maryland was good enough to speak at the 2004 Republican National Convention!
//I'm sure it had nothing to do with the fact that he's a black Republican.

Liberals just love to bring up race, don't they.

dubdub: If someone who promised a president a sure win in a state, and is a maker of voting machines AND resigns just before an investigation. wouldn't that make you suspicious?

Ayup. Sure would, and does. And if ya hadn't noticed, I'm one of the ones proposing concrete security improvements in the system. But that doesn't change the basis of the statement one whit - it's hard to take a group seriously which is really intensely concerned with allegations of misconduct on one side, but just as rabidly unconcerned with even stronger indications of misconduct by the other side.

Is that the guy the 'tolerant' democrats threw oreo cookies at?

What yes it is!

dubdub: Sloth_DC: I believe what he's saying is that good Democrats are quick to make allegations of Republican fraud on flimsy evidence, but loathe to acknowledge glaring evidence of Democratic fraud. Sadly, you're kinda reinforcing his point.

also. please investigate voting problems elsewhere. i got no problems with that. i encourage it. do it. please?

QuentinR: Liberals just love to bring up race, don't they.

No, but Democrats sure do.

bark_at_the_moonbat
... What on earth does a waste of perfectly good Oreoes have to do with this discussion?

Sloth_DC: Ayup. Sure would, and does. And if ya hadn't noticed, I'm one of the ones proposing concrete security improvements in the system. But that doesn't change the basis of the statement one whit - it's hard to take a group seriously which is really intensely concerned with allegations of misconduct on one side, but just as rabidly unconcerned with even stronger indications of misconduct by the other side.

you posted this while i wrote my answer. i totally agree. please go ahead and investigate any voting irregularities. keeping democracy is a main concern of mine.
i am all for a papertrail that the voter can confirm before leaving the votingbooth.

The irony of the oreos is the idea that a successful, responsible black man must be "white on the inside." Anybody who's really black must need a handout from the lib's.

I'm far more concerned about the "bigotry of low expectations" coming from liberals than I am from any supposed conservative racism.

Which I've never really seen, BTW.

Sloth_DC

Exactly.

That still leaves the problem of the security of the vote accumulator platforms, though.

Now now...

This can all be resolved very easily.

Just make the source code and the data publically available.

Either

a) It will turn out that the results were legit, and we can have more confidence in the election system

or

b) It will turn out that the electronic voting system is faulty and that no accurate results can come of it.

Either way, all sides of the politcal spectrum would want honesty. Right?

I mean, if you DON'T want to open up the code and the data, you obviously have something to hide.

QuentinR

The irony of the oreos is the idea that a successful, responsible black man must be "white on the inside." Anybody who's really black must need a handout from the lib's.

While I do not agree throwing Oreos at people (give them to me, I am 20 pounds underweight), I find that rationale a bit.... unbelievable. Has any Democrat come out and said that? I don't think they have. And I really don't think irony applies here. Just, you know... pointing this out.

bark_at_the_moonbat: s that the guy the 'tolerant' democrats threw oreo cookies at?

Aside from this being a largely overblown incident (one or two cookies, not the "pelting" that was being decried just a few weeks ago, strangely at the beginning of campaign season, when at the time, Mr. Steele, nor anyone else cared a whit)....

Umm, how do you know the thrower(s) were/was a Democrat?

Might he/she/they not have been Libertarians? John Birchers? Agents Provocateurs? Anarchists?

Awful lot of assuming you're doing there.

Not to mention ending a sentence with a preposition.

/unwashed mass

Vet_Curm: That still leaves the problem of the security of the vote accumulator platforms, though.

Which at least has the distinction of not being a _new_ problem - this one's been a concern since at least the days of the Hollerith Tabulator - and, frankly, was even more of a concern with human tabulators :)
And, fortunately, it's a solvable problem - there is no reason why there cannot be accumulators built by competitors to read the same spec to backcheck the results.

QuentinR: bigotry of low expectations

whaaa?
sex with animals & racism. please keep slandering democrats. i think the democrats are rightwing farks like you. and i love how you slander the democrats for being rascist, when in reality it is all about being rich or poor anyway. color doesn't go into that discussion at all. please grow out of this way of thinking.

also : papertrail/electronic voting. please stay on topic.

It's amusing watching neocons running backwards through a cornfield like this.

What's boggling is that they don't seem to feel a thing.

/opporotunity and motive, even smoke; but let's not check for a gun or the victim's pulse?

someone said the next ceo of diebold could be a dem

//did someone just neocrap their pants?
///the real issue, needing a trustworthy vote tabulation system

QuentinR: I'm far more concerned about the "bigotry of low expectations" coming from liberals than I am from any supposed conservative racism.

Which I've never really seen, BTW.

I have, and it can be pretty nasty. But I agree that the bigotry of paternalism is, at best, at least as nasty.

Felgraf, what it (oreo throwing) has to do with the problem of voter fraud is this:

The theme of this thread is Republicans Bad - Democrats Good.

My comments (Ladled with sarcasm and biting homor, I admit) are designed to make one step back and consider that the problem of elcetion day mischief is bigger than these voting machines and it most DEFINITELY involves both parties - I'd say about 50/50.

The idea that the Deomcrats are the 'good guys' (The noble people) is riotously funny.

For instance, Democrat controlled Chicago is absolutely NOTORIOUS for rigged elections. But that goes way back before most of you angry lefties were born.


Get a better CANDIDATE and you won't have this problem. That is all you have to do. Why not do that instead of screaming fraud and throwing food at conservative speakers?

Sloth_DC
And, fortunately, it's a solvable problem - there is no reason why there cannot be accumulators built by competitors to read the same spec to backcheck the results.

True that, two sets of accumulators that should always agree on the results.

bark_at_the_moonbat: For instance, Democrat controlled Chicago is absolutely NOTORIOUS for rigged elections. But that goes way back before most of you angry lefties were born.

Oh, it's not _just_ a historical oddity - perhaps you've noticed that Chicago has actually recently run into a shortage of good public policy lawyers because so much of the city government is up on corruption charges.

bark_at_the_moonbat: For instance, Democrat controlled Chicago is absolutely NOTORIOUS for rigged elections. But that goes way back before most of you angry lefties were born.

please investigate that. things like that shouldn't be allowed to happen. voting fraud is bad for everybody
how many times do i have to say that?

Vet_Curm: True that, two sets of accumulators that should always agree on the results.

As long as we're on the subject, is there any particular reason we shouldn't ink people's fingers when they vote?

Login: QuentinR
Account created: 2005-12-07 18:50:47


Jesus Christ.. another one?

I think you "guys" are actually only one maybe two people. How's that for a wacky liberal consiracy theory?

krysith,

you are correct, sir. I am an illiterate asshat. (sorry)

I owe you a beer.

As long as we're on the subject, is there any particular reason we shouldn't ink people's fingers when they vote?

I don't want the inside of my nose to be purple. ;)

whyarefartslumpy

No prob. A Yuengling or Tecate would hit the spot nicely. ;)

bark_at_the_moonbat
Meh, I don't think the Democrats are much better than the republicans.. they're both pretty scummy. After all, they're POLITICIANS! Most, save but a few, really only care about themselves.

Which is, perhaps, why this DieBold thing is distressing. Yes, Democrats may, indeed, have committed fraud elsewhere, and if they did, then it was wrong. But if these Allegations are true , then the office for one of the most important people in American politics was, potentially, altered.

And that would be a Bad Thing. And, heck, this isn't even an 'attack' on Bush. He may not have even known about it. But if someone unscrupulously altered or toyed with the code, then there could be a problem. I really don't trust any private orginization to deliver a fair, accurate answer if there's no oversight, REGARDLESS as to who's in charge of said company/division. Way, way too easy for someone with an ulterior motive to change/alter the course of events.

(Furthermore, the security on Diebold machines is... kinda crap, from what I've read.)

Login: QuentinR
Account created: 2005-12-07 18:50:47


Jesus Christ.. another one?

I'm new to fark. Aaaaaaand?

bark_at_the_moonbat

Might as well come out now....

I threw that oreo. I am a Communist and love Communist things. My organization, SMURF, coordinated these attacks to spark precisely this kind of argument between the two major political parties. It is a brilliant effort to bring down the system in attempt to set up a socialist society that would promote peace and general well being. The oreo was a symbol of the the way we are going to divide America, and become the better party. You see, the two darker portions of the oreo represent the parties, and the white cream represents the Communist Party. The symbolism denotes how people always go for the creamy middle first, as it is their favorite part. Then the rest of the cookie is just wontonly consumed or even thrown away. We are the cream. We will become the better part.

Sloth_DC
As long as we're on the subject, is there any particular reason we shouldn't ink people's fingers when they vote?

None I could think of, except that some of our lady Farkettes might object to having their manicures ruined ;)

(ducks and covers from barrage of incoming brickbats)

GWLush, notice how strange the weather's been getting lately?

Well, let's just say it has a little something to do with certain 'friends' of mine and QuentinR's over at Area 51.

That, these so-called 'voting' machines and our plot to infiltrate FARK are but mere componants of our grand scheme...

(Rubs hands together in sinister fashion, while cackling, as red glowing steam billows up around my dark, flowing robe)

Can I make a sweeping generalization too?

Liberals throw oreos and pies.

Conservatives kill gays and blow up abortion clinics.

That was fun. You guys might be on to something.