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Ignore "Hang On Voltaire" ON

2005-12-13 12:49:49 PM nwarlick

And I would say your an apathetic tool living in denial.

"Yeah, Leadership sucks, eh? It's too hard and always someone else's fault."

So it's your argument that Bush should make all decisions, control the actions of others, and all over make sure nothing goes wrong during his tenure?

What a second, I thought you were biatching that Bush took too much control of the government.

/hypocrisy

nwarlick

Yep, it grew 5% this year, keeping up with the steady rising trend.

How many times do I need to explain it - debt isn't a bad thing if you can pay it off. Our ENTIRE ECONOMY RUNS ON THE SYSTEM OF CREDIT. Might want to run back to econ class for at least the first class of the semester.

Considering the fact that we went from 230 billion to trillions of dollars in debt, makes me queasy, that I can say. As for paying off that debt? He isn't going to. He has left that mess to other presidents down the line, to me, my family, my children, my childrens children. How fair is that? Is that good money management? Nope. Not in the slightest. And don't dictate economics and politics to me. I am half a step away from my Major in PoliSci and minor in History. You are insulting my intelligence.

Hang On Voltaire

Regressing into trying to equate the influence and motives of a governor to that of a corporate officer is pretty ridiculous. MY NEXT DOOR NEIGHBOR PROMISED ME BUSH WOULD WIN IOWA!!!! HE STOLE THE ELECTION!!!. monetary influence is a huge, huge incentive in the world we live in.

Code_Archeologist
Hang On Voltaire Personally I think that Kerry should have fought the election results. But he had farktards running his campaign who told him he should not. These are the same farktards who cannot seem to win a single Democratis election, and keep telling the Democrats to water down their message, or be non-confrontational. ie. they are the ones who have been pussifying the Democrats for the past 15 years.

Fought what? There was, and still is, no evidence of fraud. Get over it.

nwarlick

This keeps getting better. First you say that accusations of electoral fraud are from crazy liberal conspiracy theorists who can't get over losing the election, but then you say that you too would like to see the real story? Make up your mind.

Then, to defend your completely inane economic statement, you give me a link to a website that describes Donald L. Evans giving a speech about how great the Bush economy is. Donald L. Evans was appointed by Bush! What else would he have to say about the economy!?

Talk about hypocrisy -- invalidating the claim of one article due to biased advertising on the website, and then providing a link which cruxes on the argument of a man who could not possibly be more biased unless he were the president himself!

Hang On Voltaire: But But But I thought Jeb Bush stole the 2000 election for Bush.

Where did he say that, or do you just assume everyone who disagrees with you has the same opinions on all isues?

"And I would say your an apathetic tool living in denial."

Ok I relinquish my cynicism. Bush paid off the leader of Ohio to give him the election - meanwhile they hired thousands of officials to help rig the election, and somehow covered their trails enough so that only a genius blogger could discover them, a genius who will soon be assassinated by President Bush.

MWeather
Where did he say that, or do you just assume everyone who disagrees with you has the same opinions on all isues?

You wanna wager that he believes that about the 2000 election?

2005-12-13 12:51:46 PM shaneo785

Hang on Voltaire is a liar who constantly and intentionaly alters and spins truth to either somehow justify his guilty conscious, or perhaps he is getting paid by the Bush administration. Either way, he is nothing but an apologist for Bush and anything Bush does. I would just ignore him if I were you, or maybe point and laugh at him.

Hang On Voltaire: here was, and still is, no evidence of fraud.


how do you have evidence if there is no paper trail?

Hang On Voltaire


straw
man
fall-a-ceeeeeeeeeeey
lah-te-tah

Everybody loves new technology, until people realize that these things are rushed to market by overworked developers and lying marketers. Suddenly, oh, shiat, this SAN doesn't work at all, or, this voting machine uses Access (god, that's scary) because the aforementioned developers didn't have time to develop a secure database.

As an IT guy, I love reading about the new developments, but I wait till the stuff's been proven before I even think about implementing it.
This is probably the case with these machines. The usual rush to get these things up and running is more important than quality product (see XBOX 360).
While it's possible that there was some conspiracy stuff going on here, it's probably just another case of bad management and shoddy product without enough testing before going to market.

/hates Bush
//doesn't think he's the antichrist, just a spoiled idiot

nwarlick:

"I meant that credit is quite rampant throughout American economy. Last time I checked, just about every American was in debt in some way, but it is not a bad thing if you can pay it off.

So unless America plans on going bankrupt anytime soon, I'd say we're ok."

---
Lousy save. Credit is rampant because during the past three administrations, predatory lenders handed out credit cards to everyone over the age of 17, something that wasn't the case until the late 1980s, when the highest interest rate on a credit card was probably 15%.

Of course, you'd need to be old enough to remember before Reagan to understand that.

It isn't a good thing, and we aren't OK. Consumer debt is not an indicator of overall economic health.

"I am half a step away from my Major in PoliSci and minor in History"

Actually, I believe you said in a past thread you were a freshman.

/I'm a political science and journalism major
//with a minor in psychology

nwarlick

The election was almost TWO YEARS AGO! I'm sure if he was going to get swarmed with allegations, it would have been some time ago.

1 year and 1 month. Learn to do some math and read a calender

When do we get to start torturing him?

(last time I checked, our economy was growing and democracy has been spread to two countries in his terms.)

Last I checked... just today...

BAGHDAD, Iraq Dec 13, 2005 Gunmen killed a Sunni Arab candidate for parliament and militants tried to blow up a leading Shiite politician in separate attacks Tuesday, the last day of campaigning for Iraq's election.

( Four U.S. soldiers killed near Baghdad

Tuesday, December 13, 2005; Posted: 11:43 a.m. EST (16:43 GMT)

/Last I check US deficit was 8,142,000,000,000.00

nwarlick

Let me explain a bit to you.

Techically I am a Freshman.

However on paper, I am 4 credits away from walking.

Clear that up for you?

"It isn't a good thing, and we aren't OK. Consumer debt is not an indicator of overall economic health."

Noooo, we're not ok. Being twice as economically powerful as the second most economically powerful nation (china) in the world and having an economy that is still growing isn't ok. When can I rip out the tinfoil hat and bottled water.

"Techically I am a Freshman.

However on paper, I am 4 credits away from walking.

Clear that up for you?
"

How can you technically be a freshman with ~116 credits?

nwarlick

Do you even have any idea the kind of power that China has over our economy?

Linking your stories from crap websites that can't be considered objective journalism by any stretch of the imagination only hurts your cause. There are plenty of more credible ways to bash Bush's policies, but those of you relying on places like Rawstory and Dailykos are just being stupid. You'll never change anyone's mind with that crap, and rightfully so.

nwarlick
Ok I relinquish my cynicism. Bush paid off the leader of Ohio to give him the election - meanwhile they hired thousands of officials to help rig the election, and somehow covered their trails enough so that only a genius blogger could discover them,

i should hope you're serious, because THERE ARE NO TRAILS!!! That's a part of the huge scandal! Now you're getting it! The Diebold voting machines are easily hackable (as we've established earlier in the thread by the tech dudes), there are no paper trails to record each vote counting for what it was intended, and now a resignation from the CEO of the corporation that made the machines amidst increasing concern about the election's accuracy.

I'm going to start writing down who is saying what, because ONE of you is definitely Michael Moore, and another one of you is definitely Michael Savage

http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/

http://www.michaelmoore.com/

These guys should be featured on Celebrity Deathmatch

When Bush said he was going to run the country like a corporation, nobody thought he meant like this guy or Enron, did they?

"Do you even have any idea the kind of power that China has over our economy?"

On the contrary, do you have any idea the power we have over China's economy?

We help them and they help us, don't make the mistake of undermining American economy - it still is the most powerful in the world by a longshot.

So the CEO of a company who manufactures voting machines, and ... oh, just by the way, happened to be the Bush's campaign manager in the state that decided the election .... resigns the day before a judge decides whether he must show his source code (which he's adamently refused to do at this point).


Another Michael Moore conspiracy. Nothing to see here people. Move along.

ZipBeep: nobody thought he meant like this guy or Enron, did they?

the fact that he ran every company he touched into the ground kind of was a tipoff for me...

nwarlick

How can you technically be a freshman with ~116 credits?

New York Military Academy and a bunch of Summer College and AP courses. The school I go to had some issues with this, and still registered me as a freshman with everything that is included in freshman priveleges (i.e., no car, live on campus, freshman housing so on and so forth). Would you like to see me walk in June?

"So the CEO of a company who manufactures voting machines, and ... oh, just by the way, happened to be the Bush's campaign manager in the state that decided the election .... resigns the day before a judge decides whether he must show his source code (which he's adamently refused to do at this point).
"

When I get it from a trustworthy news source that doesn't sell anti-Bush gear, I will be skeptical. I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm just saying it has no evidential backup right now so I'm not going to believe it.

I'm a pretty rabid anti-bush supporter. I think the guy is slime, and I DO happen to think that this election may have been tampered with. Was it tampered with enough to sway the election in his favor? I kinda doubt it. And even if it was, does it really matter? No, he's only got a few more years left to fark up. The country is all ready pretty deep in debt, and he can't really make it THAT much worse. We're slightly more secure than we were before, and again, he probably won't make the situation worse. International comtempt for us can't get much worse than it currently is, so he can't really hurt us there. His policy in Iraq, while flawed, can't make things any worse than they are right now, so "staying the course", while quite dumb, won't make things any lousier than they are at this point. Just 3 more years, and we'll be rid of the dumbass for good. Might as well let this disease run its course, and hopefully, if it doesn't kill us, it'll make us stronger.

That said having been said, I DO think we should look long and hard at how we go about voting, and tabulating those votes. The cornerstone of democracy, something we claim to hold dear, is voting. We should A) drop the electoral college system, as a popular vote would be more fair, and B) make damn sure that every vote is counted correctly. Whether you're a liberal, a conservative, a neocon, a democrat, a tree hugging hippie, in the green party, a real republican, or what's being passed off as a republican these days, you should be concerned about vote fraud. I almost don't care who gets elected, just so long as they are elected fairly, and my vote gets accurately recorded.

nwarlick: So you don't trust a website that sells anti-Bush gear, but you will trust a website that quotes exclusively a Bush appointee?

I'd love to watch you walk. It still confused me, though. I finished my freshman year when I was a senior in highschool (I did joint enrollment at a local college), but didn't think you could get more than 1 year done.

InmanRoshi
So the CEO of a company who manufactures voting machines, and ... oh, just by the way, happened to be the Bush's campaign manager in the state that decided the election .... resigns the day before a judge decides whether he must show his source code (which he's adamently refused to do at this point).


Another Michael Moore conspiracy. Nothing to see here people. Move along.


eh. you're probably right. the dems are just whiny losers...*wait they care about bipartisan justice*.....erm......wait a second...if it were that these were legitimate allegations, they would have surfaced long ago! this is a long story, the election was YEARS AGO. DUH ....*er.......wait......it was only a year ago, and there were concerns about the voting machines since the 2000 election....um...shiat.......uhhhhh* YOU ALL SUCK.


/screw you guys i'm going to watch television news...they'll make it all okay, won't they? *curls up in fetal position*

The whistleblowers have clearly demonstrated the potential for fraud, but we have yet to see smoking gun testimony that it actually occurred. There's a lot of indirect evidence that these machines were at best unreliable and at worst tampered with, but it is indirect evidence. To Bush supporters, this is vindication and to Kerry supporters it is sufficuent proof.

It ought to be enough for a federal grand jury, though. Put the searchlight on every technician, account rep, and executive at Diebold. If the worst suspicions are indeed true, somebody will roll over and squeal.

Saying that because Kerry didn't ask for it then means that an investigation is unwarranted now is disingenuos. The fact that no such investigation has been started smacks to me of a coverup.

"So you don't trust a website that sells anti-Bush gear, but you will trust a website that quotes exclusively a Bush appointee?"

That article is all over the place. I originally saw it on AOL news, but I did a quick ask.com search for it. There are many, many different sources.

You can't really put a slant on economic growth anyway.

/fact check

Andyxc And even if it was, does it really matter? No, he's only got a few more years left to fark up.

"Noooo, we're not ok. Being twice as economically powerful as the second most economically powerful nation (china)"

M-hm. I'll leave you to figure out where China's economic power resides, and how dependent we are on a Communist nation's ties to "freedom-loving" industrialists.

"in the world and having an economy that is still growing isn't ok."

Reagan ended inflation. By driving the deficit through the roof, deregulating industry to unprecedented levels and slashing corporate taxation. Did the economy grow? Yes. Did it grow enough to keep GHWB in the White House after a slam-dunk in Iraq? No.

Did Clinton and Congress erase Reagan's deficit? Yes. Which growing economy are you most enamored of?

. Reagan's at the cost of a then-record deficit
. Clinton's growth, erased deficit and dotcom bubble
. The current record deficit coupled with uncontrolled spending

Andyxc: That said having been said, I DO think we should look long and hard at how we go about voting, and tabulating those votes.

Pen, paper and representatives from each partitipating party to supervise the counting. Simple.

If some people screw up and can't mark the paper correctly then so be it.

O'Dell was a vocal personal supporter of GW Bush. Okay. So that's why Diebold voting machines are rigged. They come from a company who's CEO supported Bush. Clearly guilty of election fraud.

O'Dell displayed a moral deficit by engaging in alleged securities fraud. Hmmm. But he was fired because the voting machines "are" rigged. I'm glad you cleared that up.

O'Dell's company refused to submit source code to a review board. That board could hurt Diebold if a reviewer reveals proprietary technology to a competitor whose code is also submitted. Hmmm. But it's not an intellectual property issue, it must be to conceal rigged voting machine software.

Ooooh. Those alternate perspectives must be surpressed, and smeared into oblivion. Quick! Spike their cool-aid before they wake up!

/Where did all the conspiracy kooks come from?
//That grassy knoll is taller than I thought.

You guys are forgetting a fundamental point - the CEO was not a technician. In order to program this "bogus code" that gives Bush the victory, my guess is a bunch of people would have to be given the task.

It's hard to keep a secret with a large group of people.

Unhip1
The lingering suspicion of voter fraud doesn't just exist because of the Ohio results. If you'd notice the mention before of the almost symmetrical discrepancies between exit poll results and actual poll results on the day of the election, an eyebrow should go up. Plus, the "trail" you speak of doesn't exist with Diebold machines. Tampering with votes and not needing hundreds of head to help you is part of the beauty of the scheme. As you say "no evidence, so no case."
But that isn't the implication here, and you and Hang On Voltaire seem loathe to infer from even overwhelming circumstantial evidence, which only means you're firm in your convictions....but not firm enough to ignore the criticisms and move on to bigger fish.

You just don't get it. Exit polls are not very reliable. The real polls (Zogby, Strategic, Mason-Dixon etc) all had Bush winning Ohio. Others had Kerry and all were within the margin of error. http://www.electoral-vote.com/2004/states/ohio.html Here is your evidence:

1. The exit polls were wrong
2. The CEO of Diebold promised to deliver Ohio to Bush (which to you means fraud and to me looks like what every other head of a state campaign says to a candidate. As demonstrated by the quotes I provided)

nwarlick

NYMA offers a program where you can begin earning your college credits the summer before you Junior year. I took advantage and went until right before I came to school in September(not smart I must admit, I barely passed Junior year. Balanced it out Senior.).