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		One thousand executions. That's it? (news.scotsman.com)		257
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smeegle		2005-11-29 03:50:46 PM

mrexcessA bit late for that, isn't it? I mean, in answer to your question, no. But it already is. This is my government.

If I could control everything my government did I would be all powerful queenshiat for a day.
The corruption of government falls on the karma of the corrupted officials.
I vote against politicians who support the death penalty.

elchip		2005-11-29 03:51:20 PM

2005-11-29 03:39:38 PM Sloth_DC [TotalFark]

There is an excellent example of this in the Gospel of John. When a crowd found a woman taken in the act of adultery, Jesus was asked what should be done with her, whether the prescribed punishment (death by stoning) should be carried out.

Whereupon his mum immediately brained the whore with a rock. Errm, sorry, wrong story. This incident does not in any way invalidate the laws of the Old Testament - it merely says that it is Jehovah's job to punish you for eating shellfish and pork, not man's.

Which, again, shows that the old laws are still in effect, just removed from earthly enforcement.

What goes into the mouth does not make anyone unclean; it is what comes out of the mouth that makes someone unclean. -Matthew 15:11

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love. -Galatians 5:6

Michaluk		2005-11-29 03:51:25 PM

I find it infinitely amusing that a lot of the same people who are pro-abortion are anti-death penalty and vice versa. Just pick a side you morans!

Gyzhor		2005-11-29 03:51:39 PM

GWLush

Thanks. I'm done now, honest. I just can't take these semi-religious flamewars seriously.

GWLush		2005-11-29 03:52:11 PM

ruggerbear

That sounds like the begining of every serial killers story. Therefore, you scare me.

jayday		2005-11-29 03:52:45 PM

Im kinda on the fence with the whole execution thing.

I believe it should be used, but only in cases where there is zero percent chance of a mistake. Say under circustances where there is video, pictures, multiple witnesses backed up by definitive forensics, that sort of thing.

If there is any possibility(reasonable proof) that there may be another reason, but the person is still found guilty(which seems to happen somehow) then I dont see a problem with life imprisonment. There have been one to many times where people that have been found guilty and were executed have later been found to be innocent. That in itself should be reason enough to change the laws to a certain extent.

For those of you who disagree......
Please tell me then, how much is the life of an innocent man worth?
Who then should be put to death for the murder of this innocent man?

barkingatthemoon		2005-11-29 03:53:36 PM

Eraser8
Well if you take into account Sodom, Gamorrah, and the cannanites I think he topped 1000.

Perhaps if you took into account the fact that those events ALL predated the Christ, I think you'll find that your argument is nonsensical.

Not so...
According to Jesus, He is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end...He has always been from the beginning of time, God is the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit. He, Christ is one with God, and yet He is part of the Holy Trinity, which is The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit...So He (Christ) was, and is, and always will be, GOD.

So in point of fact, the Sodom and Gamorrah example is accurate.

smeegle		2005-11-29 03:54:11 PM

Well I am outta here. It's been,,,scary.

GWLush		2005-11-29 03:54:12 PM

jayday

Ditto

eraser8		2005-11-29 03:54:59 PM

Sloth_DC writes: This incident does not in any way invalidate the laws of the Old Testament - it merely says that it is Jehovah's job to punish you for eating shellfish and pork, not man's.

Are we to believe that Mary Magdelene is to be tormented by God for her sins? Of course not. That's a plainly ridiculous idea.

Mary Magdelene's sins, while more serious than that of the woman taken in adultery, were forgiven. Her record was "expunged" by virtue of her faith in Jesus. That doesn't invalidate the Ten Commandments (or any Old Testament law) of course. And, in fact, I never argued that such was ever the case. I argued, quite correctly, that the coming of the Christ signified the release from the tyranny of Old Testament law. I argued that peole were, by God's act to personify divinity, the people were to be judged according to a different standard (faith in Jesus Christ).

Jesus's purpose cannot be reduced to one word or one concept, of course. But, if we were to try, the most relevant words would be forgiveness, redemption, reconciliation, faith, charity, love.

Jesus Christ would never have signed a death warrant because he would have held to the belief that every life is sacred and that no person should be cheated out of the chance for redemption.

Which, again, shows that the old laws are still in effect, just removed from earthly enforcement.

Meaning, again, that Jesus would never have signed a death warrant.

Dadburns		2005-11-29 03:55:10 PM

Well, I guess I have to post this....

\Fuel for the fire
\\Flame on

J.Garcia'sRightMiddleFinger		2005-11-29 03:55:16 PM

Boy, what a deterrent

whidbey		2005-11-29 03:55:33 PM

1,000 executions. That's it?

I guess we're lucky, huh?

A third of them in Texas. No surprise.

Nice to see we're keeping alive the traditions of the Middle Ages. We wouldn't want them to die or or anything horrible like that...

Felgraf		2005-11-29 03:55:41 PM

barkingatthemoon
Ah, but that depends on how one *views* God. If one views god as a being capapble of change, then the God of the New Testament could, conceivably, act and be quite different than the god of the old.

The New Testament does appear, after all, to be what happened when God got Religion...

GWLush		2005-11-29 03:55:57 PM

barkingatthemoon

Fine, then let God off the guilty.

Laughing.Boy		2005-11-29 03:56:19 PM

I'm dissapointed... I thought we'd be well over 10,000 by now. There's no shortage of people deserving of it.

mandib		2005-11-29 03:57:20 PM

Stinky93

I would have a different stance on the death penalty if we could guarantee that life sentenced persons did not get out on parole, or did not ever get back into society.
But that is not the case. There are too many repeat offenders that have been recycled in the prison system multiple time walking around free in this country.
How many times have you seen on the news that an arrested child molester had a record a mile long?

I would tend to agree with you. The legal system needs to be revamped so that really disgusting and terrible crimes are never able to get out of prison. But for the time being, we have to work within what we have. The system is fallible and not reliable, I'd rather take the chance save one innocent person from dying unjustly, then just say "screw 'em all".

Death!!! Thank you Jaysus

That's where you lost me. Death shouldn't be the answer to social ills.

/I'm not soft on crime, I just have a hard time believing that this is all black and white (pardon the pun) and that we can't come to a conclusion that suits us both

mrexcess		2005-11-29 03:58:19 PM

smeegle
If I could control everything my government did I would be all powerful queenshiat for a day.

True, but the fact that you continue to support that government brings with it a heavy moral burden, I'd argue. You're taking ownership of it, therefor you absolutely must prevent it from doing harm, else some of the responsibility does fall to you. I don't like it either, believe me, but I think that's a less insulary moral outlook. It isn't all on our politicians, they're simply a reflection of our society.

/later, sis

eraser8		2005-11-29 03:59:15 PM

kywcat writes: If a person is evil he is dealt with in the end by God.

How are you not understanding this? If it is Jesus's position that retributive justice is to be handled by God on the spiritual plane and not by man on the temporal one, how could you possibly come to the conclusion that Jesus would sign even a single death warrant?

ruggerbear		2005-11-29 03:59:15 PM

What scares me is people that are willing to give these assclowns another chance. Oh, you poor thing, you were raised in poverty and had a drug addiction, so even though you killed a family of 4 while you were high, we think you can do better so we're going to give you another chance. BULLSHIA***, you blew your one and only chance, now you fry.

Stinky93		2005-11-29 03:59:40 PM

J.Garciblahblah

It's not a deterrent. It's a form of permanent elimination.
A jury does not sentence someone to death based on deterring the next guy.

Snake939		2005-11-29 04:01:06 PM

J.Garcia'sRightMiddleFinger

Correlation != Causality, but it sure is a pretty picture. Thanks for lighting up my day!

mrexcess		2005-11-29 04:01:24 PM

The death penalty is vengence, not justice. Call it for what it is, at least. Bloodthirsty farks.

krelborne		2005-11-29 04:02:06 PM

J.Garcia'sRightMiddleFinger: mocking and gaining joy from the death of another person is sick, possibly sociopathic (except in the case of the victim's family, which would be understandable.)

That's an interesting disclaimer. The family is allowed to appreciate the justice being carried out, but if anybody else does it, they're sick? Can't say that I agree with that assertion.

GWLush		2005-11-29 04:03:16 PM

ruggerbear

Where has anyone said they would give that guy, in your example, a second chance?

J.Garcia'sRightMiddleFinger		2005-11-29 04:03:40 PM

Don't let logic get in the way of feeling better about yourselves through the suffering of others.

eraser8		2005-11-29 04:06:54 PM

ruggerbear writes: What scares me is people that are willing to give these assclowns another chance.

First, how is locking someone up for life giving him another chance?

Second, I would support the death penalty on the condition that prosecutors seeking the sentence and jurors making the determination would themselves be killed if they convincted and executed the wrong man.

Stinky93		2005-11-29 04:07:08 PM

mandib
I'm all for another solution, but until we come up with the memory re-write technology, I think death is the best we have. It's sort of a global bannination.

It strikes me that it is very easy to sit around and argue about rehabilitation from some ivory tower somewhere, but the reality on the street is that brutal crimes are being committed, and somehow, it has to be stopped. You can lock up a child rapist for ten years, but ten years later he's out on the prowl again.

Sloth_DC		2005-11-29 04:08:09 PM

elchip:
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love. -Galatians 5:6

The Ministry of Paul takes precedence over the Ministry of Yeshua? Interesting.

What goes into the mouth does not make anyone unclean; it is what comes out of the mouth that makes someone unclean. -Matthew 15:11

See, this is why you can't trust Christianity and Creationism - it's just so inconstant and always changing. Clearly, any Law of Christianity cannot really be treated as more than a Theory ;-)

mandib		2005-11-29 04:08:15 PM

krelborne

That's an interesting disclaimer. The family is allowed to appreciate the justice being carried out, but if anybody else does it, they're sick? Can't say that I agree with that assertion.

I do. The family has the emotions and feelings and need/want for vengeance that can only come from a deep and scarring emotional loss. No one else (government, witnesses, or people who enjoy seeing people "fry")has that deep emotional pain. Therefore they can appreciate the justice because they, themselves would want to carry it out. Whats not to understand?

J.Garcia'sRightMiddleFinger		2005-11-29 04:10:31 PM

That's an interesting disclaimer. The family is allowed to appreciate the justice being carried out, but if anybody else does it, they're sick? Can't say that I agree with that assertion.

Yeah, revenge is normal reaction for someone. Getting joy out of someone's death when it doesn't impact you is not. The governor of a state especially shouldn't be getting joy out of it.

themeaningoflifeisnot		2005-11-29 04:12:04 PM

"Abolition of the death penalty is most consonant with the example of Jesus, who both taught and practiced the forgiveness of injustice."

US Bishops, Statement on Capital Punishment, Article 13

kywcat		2005-11-29 04:12:46 PM

eraser8writes how could you possibly come to the conclusion that Jesus would sign even a single death warrant
It is because I do not believe in it. I studied this stuff intesely for 13 years and came to the conclusion that there is no retribution in the afterlife and that things must be dealt with here on earth. To stick your head in the ground while the world spirals out of control and to allow people to continually murder is asinine. I feel that we must be responsible for ourselves and take action when needed.

mandib		2005-11-29 04:13:27 PM

Stinky93

It strikes me that it is very easy to sit around and argue about rehabilitation from some ivory tower somewhere, but the reality on the street is that brutal crimes are being committed, and somehow, it has to be stopped. You can lock up a child rapist for ten years, but ten years later he's out on the prowl again.

you're assuming that I've never had a crime committed against me or my family. Don't.

Also don't assume that I live my life grandiosly waving from my ivory tower and trying to give some pittance to the peons below me.

/sometimes farkers speak from experience about crime and rehabilitation. For the one that did what he did to us, I wish to God that he would have been in jail for a significant amount of time (instead of a short while) and was rehabilitated while he was in there. That way the chances are greater that he won't do it again

mAd_mt		2005-11-29 04:16:26 PM

The death penalty is pure crap. DNA matching has exonerated many and has proved some of the executed as innocent.

It has no deterrent value. Period. Murder still occurs. Habitual child and infant molestation still occur.

Lock them away for life. It's more cost effective. The Dahmers of the world are eliminated naturally by other convicts who also have nothing to lose.

The death penalty is not cost effective. It is expensive.

eraser8		2005-11-29 04:17:55 PM

kywcat writes: It is because I do not believe in it.

That sentence is unclear. What is it that you do not believe in?

things must be dealt with here on earth.

True. But, how do you figure that's relevant to my original point?

To stick your head in the ground while the world spirals out of control and to allow people to continually murder is asinine.

It's even more asinine to believe that the only alternative to capital punishment is sticking one's head in the ground and allowing people continually to murder. The civilized world has abolished capital punishment and, inexplicably (if your logic were valid), the civilized world has not descended into anarchy and orgiastic murder.

krelborne		2005-11-29 04:18:16 PM

mandib: I do. The family has the emotions and feelings and need/want for vengeance that can only come from a deep and scarring emotional loss. No one else (government, witnesses, or people who enjoy seeing people "fry")has that deep emotional pain. Therefore they can appreciate the justice because they, themselves would want to carry it out. Whats not to understand?

It's true that the pain is not personal, but it's easy for someone to react with disgust/outrage and empathize with the victims. They, too, can have some of those same emotions and the same reaction. That's why I don't agree. If you're going to say that one is sick, you should say that the other is sick, to be consistent.

Snowflake Tubbybottom		2005-11-29 04:18:50 PM

elchip
No, I can't back that up with statistics right now, and I might be wrong. But I think I'm right.

On that you are correct, which I agreed to. However there are still more whites than blacks being executed was mine.

While on the surface it appears that blacks get an unfair shake on the sentencing statistics don't show the whole problem. Yes they are sentenced to the death penalty at a higher per capita rate but they also commit crime at a heigher per capita rate respective of racial breakdowns. So is it unfair justice or appropriate justice?

eraser8		2005-11-29 04:20:29 PM

Snowflake Tubbybottom asks: So is it unfair justice or appropriate justice?

When blacks are killed at a rate disproportionate to their commission of capital crimes, it is injustice.

owtytrof		2005-11-29 04:21:03 PM

So I'm right, then? It's Christian to support the death penalty because it echoes the hypocrisy of the Christian God?

/since no one contested my assertion, I feel an implied agreeance

snowjack		2005-11-29 04:23:39 PM

I wonder how many of those 1000 people were innocent of the crime they were sentenced to death for. Forgiveness isn't about what's done to the perpetrator as a result of his actions. Forgiveness is about what happens in the hearts of the victims. Death is a cold, cold response that doesn't help anyone heal. If you don't understand this, your heart is already broken, and you're stumbling in the dark looking for a light that will let you see, and let you heal.

Snowflake Tubbybottom		2005-11-29 04:24:34 PM

eraser8
When blacks are killed at a rate disproportionate to their commission of capital crimes, it is injustice.

So are you in the "lets kill more whiteys" or"kill less black guys" crowd?

Put me down for killing whitey.

peepee mcpoop		2005-11-29 04:24:49 PM

i think if we really all get behind this, and use that good-ole-fashion american know how, we can beat the war in Iraq for number of american deaths.

Stinky93		2005-11-29 04:25:02 PM

mandib

No offence intended. It wasn't you specifically I was referring to. Just people in general that have never had a crime committed against them.

I know a person first-hand that is un-rehabilitatable. The crime has not been committed yet (that I know of), but this person is walking around every day with zero conscience. And there is nothing I, or any relatives, or society can do to give this person a conscience.
In my years of trying to understand, I've done a boatload of reading of all the different types of disorders. My conclusion after all these years is that a person without a conscience cannot be rehabilitated into gaining one. I wish that were not the case.

youngandstupid		2005-11-29 04:25:36 PM

The death penalty should be considered as pest control. When a person shows themselves to be bad for society in the sense of habitually criminal activities (rape, murder, theft ect.) they should have the oppurtunity to do so again elliminated. Quickly, painlessly, and hopefully cheaply.

Jument		2005-11-29 04:25:54 PM

eraser8
Perhaps if you took into account the fact that those events ALL predated the Christ, I think you'll find that your argument is nonsensical.

It all came from the same God, did it not? Or did God get all soft and mushy after all that hellfire and brimstone stuff?

worldbeater		2005-11-29 04:26:26 PM

I think there are more varied and compelling arguments for the death penalty philosophically than against it. You can consider social contract theory and the criminal's right to be punished as well as deterrence (though this is a poor stance to take with all the empirical data) and pure, old-fashioned punishment.

The only position I see as tenable for those against execution is that all human life is sacred and not to be taken under any circumstances.

I'm talking about capital punishment as a concept here, not the current flawed implementation of it. I do believe it is possible to get a flawless implementation of capital punishment, but we're far from it.

kywcat		2005-11-29 04:26:46 PM

eraser8
I do not believe in your point that Jesus would sign a death warrant. Christianity seems to have a view of Jesus being all forgiving when he clearly states that vengence will come to the earth through him as he sits on the right hand of god.

Secondly you would have to agree that some people will not be rehabilitated and their crimes are gruesome. It serves no purpose to keep this person in prison for life. It is much more merciful to end his life.

If you really think that Jesus would not sign a death warrant to kill someone then how can it be he will be giving vengance at the end? This does not make since. Those that are foregiven is because they changed. Some people will not.

eraser8		2005-11-29 04:27:24 PM

Snowflake Tubbybottom asks: So are you in the "lets kill more whiteys" or"kill less black guys" crowd?

Neither. I'm in the "abolish death penalty" crowd.

eraser8		2005-11-29 04:28:28 PM

Jument writes: It all came from the same God, did it not?

Oh, good lord. We've been through all this. Read through the thread. Then, get back to me.

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