Mugato: If you look up the definitions in the dictionary, agnostic means "one who disclaims any knowledge of God but does not deny the possibility of His existence," while atheism is defined as "denial or disbelief in the existence of God."

I am sure one can dig into theology and all of that fluff and pick nits until the end of time, but these definitions are pretty straightforward.

canyoneer: Mugato: If you look up the definitions in the dictionary, agnostic means "one who disclaims any knowledge of God but does not deny the possibility of His existence," while atheism is defined as "denial or disbelief
in the existence of God."

What dictionary?

Word History: An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and heaven but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not they exist. The term agnostic was fittingly coined by the 19th-century British scientist Thomas H. Huxley, who believed that only material phenomena were objects of exact knowledge. He made up the word from the prefix a-, meaning without, not, as in amoral, and the noun Gnostic. Gnostic is related to the Greek word gnsis, knowledge, which was used by early Christian writers to mean higher, esoteric knowledge of spiritual things hence, Gnostic referred to those with such knowledge. In coining the term agnostic, Huxley was considering as Gnostics a group of his fellow intellectualsists, as he called themwho had eagerly embraced various doctrines or theories that explained the world to their satisfaction. Because he was a man without a rag of a label to cover himself with, Huxley coined the term agnostic for himself, its first published use being in 1870.

Being agnostic has nothing to do with not knowing whether there is a god, and everything to do with believing that the existence or nature of god is unknowable. Simply put, if you don't know whether there is a god, you are an atheist. If you assert that I don't know whether there is a god, you are an agnostic.

Actually, StubePT, the church will give free counsel to those who cannot afford it. The thing is, you have to ask yourself, what is meant by "religion should be free"? I agree with that statement, I think. But what is religion? Is it getting to sit in a Catholic church and listen to latin? If so, how could anyone get away with charging for that? What is it that you are asking to be free? In reality, the priest has to eat, the church heating bills have to be paid, etc. etc.

//dunno, just more thoughts for conversation

The thing about scientology is that its tenants and ideas are not readily available to the public. If you want a bible, there are a ton of places you can get it for free, and you have pretty much all there is to christianity. Same goes for nearly all other religions. Scientology works by keeping what its central beliefs are a secret from those who don't pay thousands of dollars to them. At that point, very little will shake your belief in scientology.
Ok, sorry to interrupt the flame war. Please continue, I need the heat to pop my popcorn. *Yum*

Roxor: The thing about scientology is that its tenants and ideas are not readily available to the public. If you want a bible, there are a ton of places you can get it for free, and you have pretty much all there is to christianity.

Christianity has cycled between the extremes over its lifetime. Used to be you had to pay to get baptized, confirmed, absolved of sin, married, and buried. Now the very basis of Christianity's founding was, in a sense, to take power away from the Pharisees, and turn the Jewish religion away from a fee-based system to a personal system - much as Buddhism was in many respects founded to take power away from Hindu priests. However, it didn't take very long for the basic pattern to reassert itself, and in the West there eventually came the Protestant Reformation to accomplish much the same thing again. That being said, there's certainly an expectation in most churches, Christian or otherwise, that all practicioners will contribute to the church to the best of their ability.

Sloth_DC: "What dictionary?"

Webster's II Office Edition.

I don't really care, you know. I say that such questions are intrinsically unanswerable because they concern things that are by definition unobservable and unprovable by humans. Supernatural stuff is "of or pertaining to an order of existence beyond the natural world." Such an order of existence is pure conjecture.

However, cutting down Pinyon pines for stupid repositories of spoon-bender fluff and blabber is undeniably real and undeniably less-than-brainless. Also real are the fine sirloin steaks and whiskey served up at the Legal Tender Saloon.

"I once sat on a mesa above the Rio Grande for three days and nights, trying to have a vision. I got hungry and saw God in the form of a beef pie."

- Edward Abbey

So, in about four million years, when an intelligent alien explorer finds the charred remains of Earth....it's going to think we were all Scientologists, because that's what will survive.

Well, I guess that's proof against any intelligent designer.

/hope and pray Michael Crichton doesn't start his own religion

krode: These couldn't be seen from space. Contrary to popular belief, not even the Great Wall can be seen from space.

Um, are you sure about that? The terraserver and google maps image were taken from ... where now? Lemme see....

hmmm.....

oh, yeah

SPACE!

The best L. Ron Hubbard quote:
"The purpose of women is procreation, so I don't feel bad for any raped woman."
L. Ron was a woman hater. He thought nothing of human life. His true religiog was Ordo Templi Orientis, which basically just stated that people are animals, take everything you can from them, anyway you can, there are no laws. He's my hero.

I find it amusing that so many of the people who say that the stories of Scientology are absolutely ridiculous also believe that a Middle-Eastern goat herder walked on water and that another one talked to an invisible man in the sky that gave us rules that we must live by.

Christianity as an institution may not be as blatant a scam as Scientology, but that doesn't make the stories any less ridiculous.

balloot
... If existence came from non-existence at some point (and it must have) then science isn't equipped to deal with that.

You mean that our current science isn't equipped to deal with that. Who says in 50 years we won't have widely accepted theories that describe with the Big Bang and the 4 universes that came before, with more to follow?

Remember, "science" is not static and does not have limits. It wasn't so long ago that "science" said the world was flat you know. Science/knowledge evolves and becomes (hopefully) more accurate over time.

Personally I believe that the universe and existence itself is so complex that God/Big Bang/FSM/whatever are just our attempts to make some kind of sense out of something that is beyond human understanding.

I believe in what I can see and feel. I'm happy and that is all that matters IMHO.

Please insert standard "OMG Scientology is teh stup1d" here. Because it is.

A Very Merry Unauthorized Children's Scientology Pageant

I kid you not.

Anyways.

TheMaskedUnit: I don't know. A lot of the stories in the bible can be explained... such as Noah actually being a Mesopotamian Merchant and stuff like that.

But Prince Xenu?

I mean, come on.

Oh, and for those of you who say Christianity is not a cult or is radically different from Scientology because the Christians are not out to get your money: have you ever been to the Vatican? They have some phat lewtz there, let me tell you!

There is a LOT of money involved in Christianity, don't kid yourself. Maybe they don't charge you $180 for an evaluation or whatever but they still pass the collection plate and a piece of that action goes to the church.

2005-11-29 01:39:47 AM NokNoKCPU
I say we get together a bunch of Farkers, buy a ship and set sail on the ocean, make ourselves an independent nation and declare war on the Scientologists' SeaOrg by boarding that floating rustbucket of a ship Freewinds.
/pir8s

Butch Coolidge:
"The Freewinds? That sagging, old rust bucket is designed like a garbage scow. Half the quadrant knows it, thats why theyre learning to speak Xenuese."

Vincent:
"Don't you think you might'n outta rephrase that, palooka?"

Butch Coolidge:
"I didn't mean to say that the Freewinds should be hauling garbage. I meant to say that it should be hauled away as garbage."

/High Travoltage Ensues?
//"L. Ron Hubbard is a swaggering, overbearing tin-plated dictator with delusions of godhood."
///join the science faction fark club

Jument: Remember, "science" is not static and does not have limits. It wasn't so long ago that "science" said the world was flat you know.

I could be wrong, but I don't believe "science" every claimed the world was flat - even the ancient Greeks (the guys who invented science) figured out not only that it was round, but how big around it was (something which, I might add, Christopher Columbus farked up pretty badly). The _Church_ insisted the Earth was flat, because a round Earth makes certain Biblical passages wrong.

Scientology is a fraud, it's been a fraud since it was created. Want the inside scoop, do some research on Hubbards's son. Learn about his home life, his father/mother, the church, the criminal aspects, and his eventual escape.



/bring it on xenu
//i'd like to go down to my local scientology "reading room" and take a big fat dump on their carpet.

Jument
There is a LOT of money involved in Christianity, don't kid yourself. Maybe they don't charge you $180 for an evaluation or whatever but they still pass the collection plate and a piece of that action goes to the church.

Not to mention they don't pay taxes on any of it. Not even Enron was as shady as organized christianiaty.

They may be loonies, but nothing lends credibility quite like burying something in the ground for a few thousand years and then digging it up again, as if the fact that it's ancient somehow validates it. Hopefully in a few thousand years, our intelligence will have advanced to the point where intead of standing in awe of whatever mysterious-looking trinket comes out of the ground, people in that age will instead just look at it and say "Steel plates? Couldn't these idiots just write this stuff out on paper and laminate it? What a bunch of self-absorbed goons. Screw this, I'm going home and playing Madden 3006."

Every scientology discussion always devolves into christian/atheism flaming. Personally, I think Scientologists are posing here as atheists just too deflect the arugment away from Scientology. It's like having a discussion about Idi Amin, and a vegetarian comes along and deflects the discussion away from cannibalism too duck pressing.

You know, I once thought of preserving humanities knowledge on stainless steel plates in case of an apocalypse.

Then I figured that if there were an apocalypse the people would be less interensted in knowlege and more in survival and they would probably use the plates as roofing material or whatnot.

I was in the Sea Org and it's motto is "We Come Back." The symbols in the desert are actually the "Church of Spiritual Technology" symbol, or CST, which is the tax entity at the very top of the organization heiarchy (The CST is new as of the mid-nintees and was not an L. Ron Hubbard creation).

The idea is that when the Sea Org members "come back" many years from now, after a possible earth destroying war, we were to look for those symbols, unearth the tablets and start everything back over. It was proposed that the Sea Org is composed of those people who have always died and returned in some fashion to save the world from terrible things; this would just be another one of those times.

I took a tour of one of the offsite versions of these containers at Author Services in Hollywood and they're basically fairly large personal safes with the plates inside. We weren't allowed to touch the containers or the plates. L. Ron Hubbard's fellow Sci-Fi writing friends have been shown these vaults as they are associated with the Writers of The Future contest (a writing and illustration contest indirectly related to Scientology, but none the less promotes L. Ron Hubbard's name).

Obviously I'm no longer in the Sea Org or affiliated with the Church.

Just to cover my bases a lot of Scientolgists think Tom Cruise is acting like a nut and John Travolta (who's just referred to as JT in the Sea Org) comes off gay.

Also, I know I was had, it's all goofy as hell and I'm no longer affiliated with the Church. I definetly see the kookiness of all of the Xenu crap, etc.

/"I work for L. Ron Hubbard and I've got to say..."

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo -

I am comfortable with my spirituality and am fine with yours. You need not 'open your eyes' or ask me to open mine. If you are living a kind life and do unto others, that's great! Whatever gets you there and, more importantly, respect for others and how they pull it together.

It's a big boat, there is room for all.

ChicoEscuela: It's a big boat, there is room for all.

There's no room for you on this boat, only if you're taking a course.



The Freewinds - Ship owned by the Church of Scientology, used to deliver upper OT levels.

/All aboard, for love

This is actually old news, if you can call it news. It was on ABC's 20/20 in 1998 and the time stamp on the terraserver is 1997.
/all hail Xenu!

I'm old enough to remember when L.Ron was just a writer of sf crap. I still can't believe the religion he started as a gag has gotten so big! People *really* want to believe in something, even if it's... clams.

FishCake

I don't really think that Scientology was started as a gag. So much effort was put into codification and orginization that if it did start out as a gag, it turned serious pretty quickly. Plus, Science of Survival (the first true Scientology book, after Dianetics) was too much drudgery and seriousness and not enough flash for a book that launched a gag.

There is a breed of rabid "atheists" on Fark who spend much of their time ridiculing the beliefs of others. I note how often they express their views in a crude and misanthropic manner. I sense, in their sarcasm and venom, a yawning inner emptiness as if they are consumed by the void in their hearts. Their suffering has made them bitter and filled with hate. They lash out in their pain, as a wounded animal might, doing their best to appear brave in the face of the cold darkness of the unknown. I equate them with certain types of fundamentalists who also revel in ignorance and condemn those who do not share their beliefs. Like the "fundies" they ridicule they are convinced that they have a monopoly on Truth. They are like human cockroaches who thrive on decay and destruction. Most of them are no doubt outcasts who feel marginalized when they see people of all faiths living happy fulfilled lives when their lives are apparently so empty and meaningless. Why else would they expend so much energy tearing down others? They point out the failings of the few and the fraility of men through out history as "proof" that there is no value to faith. I read these crudely written flames and the smug self-congratulatory responses of their fellows and I sense spiritual agony in these poor people. They have not learned that there is so much more to spirituality than simple theism. Truth is revealed as we develop spiritually and there is so much for us to learn. Close your mind and you stop growing. Stop growing and you die.

/Taoist

Lord_Farktard

I think L. Wrong Humbug started his little church as a scam, but he got way into it and started believing all the crap he was writing. Having thousands of devoted followers can do that to you.

Not to mention that he probably developed a serious drug psychosis about the time he started writing the OT levels. There's a letter he wrote to his wife about the time he wrote OT3 (the level with all the Xenu junk in it, but I don't have to tell YOU that) in which he confesses he's been getting heavily into rum and amphetamines...which sounds like just the thing to make an already strained mind snap, if you asked me.

Mugato
There'd be a lot more revolutions than there were throughout history if the serfs, slaves and the generally screwed over didn't have something supernatural to believe in.

Made me think of my favorite Napoleon quote:
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich."

Let me sum this flame war up....

Everyone agrees that Scientologists are whack jobs, but most men would still hit Lisa Marie (oh that was the MJ post).
Most people don't have anything negative to say about Jewish people...neither do I...Daily Show is really funny.
Most people ignore most other religions and choose to pick on Christians.
Most Christians are whiny babies (like most Republicans)...We own everything (except Hollywood the Jews own that) quit acting like you are still being fed to the lions.
Agnostics seem to be pretty cool people, so they have no business getting involved with this flame war.
Atheist that flame on Fark are a holes.
Anyone that thinks that they are better than anyone else is an a hole.
Anyone that gets into a flame war with an a hole is a dumb ass

In closing believe in what you want to believe in. Give your money to what ever you want to give your money to. What some loser in his moms basement has to say about your religion should be of no consequence.

/flame on

JakeWasHere

LRH was an intelligent guy with a megalomaniacal complex who used those smarts to do both good and bad.

I'm still reeling from my time with the Church.

/Why am I naked and standing in the course room? Oh noes, they're going to send me to Ethics!

Gunter glieben glauchen globen

As been stated previously, almost anything could be seen from space with enough magnification. My point was naked eye.

I say 'almost' because the atmosphere filters out certain wavelengths of light, making some things actually non-visable from space. Even the great wall has to be seen with radar, not visible light.

stoneycase
I know you're not reading this thread anymore but please don't hate on the reading rooms. That's not part of the church of Scientology; those belong to the Church of Christ, Scientist and that's something entirely different.

Mugato: I don't think that's the same thing. Not believing in the boogeyman indicates a disbelief in the boogeyman. Not believing in God indicates a disbelief in the Christian God, the Hindu gods, Me, the Klingon god, and any supreme being, including any beings that evolved to the point of having abilities so beyond ours that they may be considered gods. so real atheism is a much larger sweeping propositon than not believing in one specific fictitious creature. It precludes anything that can't be explained with our current scientific knowledge.

---

An atheist wouldn't believe in any god OR the boogeyman. That's being consistent.

A non-boogeyman-believing theist would believe in god, but not the boogeyman. Why?

Can you name a single reason that would support why god exists, but not the boogeyman?

Let's say you heard a strange noise outside. Could be the wind, could be a raccoon, could be...the boogeyman! Why would god be a viable explanation for unexplainable things, but not the boogeyman?