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(Norml.org)   Witness who filmed cops beat down suspect gets handwritten offer from cops of $1000 to give up camera and video   (mapinc.org) divider line 155
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17564 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Nov 2005 at 10:32 PM (9 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2005-11-15 12:50:21 AM  
worldbeater: I'm sure that the newspaper is involved in a scheme to smear the police department and is willing to lie in order to advance this agenda.

I assume you're responding sarcastically to my post. If, in fact, the newspaper has videotape evidence of wrongdoing by the police, why don't they post it? You'd think they'd be happy to support their claims with visual evidence. Their failure to post the video makes me wonder what's really on it.

I've been interviewed a few times for newspaper stories. When the story came out, I was wondering just who they really interviewed. I've also seen news reports of incidents that I was personally involved in. If they hadn't given the location, I'd have thought they were talking about some other incident.

It's not beyond comprehension that a reporter might have an agenda, and might take bend the facts to support that agenda. I'm not saying that happened in this case, but the fact that they're not posting the video makes me suspicious.
 
2005-11-15 12:54:23 AM  
Amigajoe: -I'm sure many Mexican cops have civil, positive interactions with the public on a daily basis. Doesn't mean they are corrupt bastards. You're setting up an argument where it would be virtually impossible to establish a pattern of misconduct no matter HOW prevalent it was, while making broad assumptions of your own with NO evidence AT ALL. You're jumping to unwarranted conclusions just like the people you criticize, just in the other direction...

If you could show me where I said all cops were trustworthy and infallible I'd agree with you. In fact, I've already said that some cops are assholes. My entire point of contention is the attitude of:

Donald_McRonald: Criminals w/ badges.

buttsecks: The pigs get more corrupt and more brutal every day. Welcome to police state Amerika.

PigHogger: Hey! They're not called "pigs" for nothing...
 
2005-11-15 12:55:01 AM  
Amigajoe: -aren't corrupt bastards that is...


I gotcha.
 
2005-11-15 01:21:28 AM  
biatch all you want about the idiots saying things like "I hate cops" and lumping them all together, but just realize that they're not the ones you need to be woried about; they're not the ones with power.

There are certain sectors of our society that absolutely insist that law enforcement needs...no, deserves to be given absolute authority when in the line of duty; that everything they do is for the defense of our citizenry and they are therefore above the law (unless it's a VERY extreme case.) you see them come out of the woodwork every time something like this happens:

On one side, you may have the "hippies" or whatever other derogatory names you may prefer for poor, relatively educated people, who will immediately jump to the conclusion that the blame for the controversial incident at hand lies entirely at the feet of the police.

On the other, you will have your Bill O'Reilly "daddy government" types who will immediately jump to the conclusion that even if excessive force, or whatever, was used, that the victims MUST have done something to deserve what they got, even if it was in their past, they'll find SOME excuse, because they believe that it's their duty to protect law enforcement/authority wherever and whenever possible and that authority should always be given the benefit of the doubt.

Now, both are dumbasses, but I ask you: which one is more dangerous? Which one, if you look at it objectively, bothers YOU more, and why?

BTW, I have friends in the Houston Police and in the Texas DPS (State Troopers), and all of the ones I know are stand-up guys who try to be as respectful as possible when dealing with those who treat them with the respect due ANY stranger, cop or not. But let me tell you something: if they witnessed a fellow policeman treating a citizen badly and/or violently and there were no objective witnesses, they would NEVER bring it up again. Their loyalty, despite the oath they took, is to their fellow officers first, and the citizens they are supposed to be protecting second. I imagine this is true for the vast majority of law enforcement organizations all over this country.

I ask you: is that right? I realize it's a natural tendency for them to do so, but is...it...RIGHT?

As for the whole drug issue, I donate to Law Enforcement Against Prohibition.

Their big public awareness thing right now is a Texas policeman named Howard Wooldridge who has been riding across the country exclusively on horseback wearing shirts that say "cops say legalize drugs, ask me why"





Sure looks like a dirty hippie, don't he?

Check 'em out, if you like.
 
2005-11-15 01:30:09 AM  
Ostizzle: Hey man, I don't have to respect your authority I just expect you to be there when I need you.

Actually, I've come to expect that they not be there when they're needed.

The only time that I've personally needed the cops was when my roommate's car was broken into. He had an assload of shiat stolen.

A call to the police resulted in them telling him to call his insurance company, that they basically weren't going to bother coming out for something minor like that.
 
2005-11-15 01:41:46 AM  
Here I am once again in this type of thread...

/i took a good long walk to get rid of the urge to say knee-jerk comments such as repeating Ice-T's famous/infamous (depending on which side of the fence y'all on) "K..."

*sigh*

The Cops' actions speak for themselves. They are indeed Gangs with a Badge and a Paycheck. 'Nuff Said.

Avoid them at all costs.

Like an Unicorn... a Good Cop is just imaginary. They're all bad, period. Even the good cops don't turn in the bad cops, and that makes them bad.
 
2005-11-15 02:09:30 AM  
"Overload the police with victimless crimes & other minutiae & eventually only creeps & bullies remain cops."
~ Rick Gaber
 
2005-11-15 02:13:06 AM  
Satan

My special satanic prayer is for each of these farktards to get a superb personal ass-whupping, get robbed in a bad way


Justice Department crime statistics were released about a month ago. They show that something like 33 percent of all burglaries / thefts were solved or resulted in an arrest.

It would appear that if you are robbed, there may indeed be better people to call than the police as statistically they won't be able to help you anyway.

The same goes for assaults (46 percent solved or with an arrest).

In other words, you are already mostly on your own anyway. Calling the police in times of trouble just seems to be an exercise to help people feel better.

Thanks for playing though.
 
2005-11-15 02:16:18 AM  
Put me in the "more supportive of the police than hateful of the police" category. Even when I was young and a bit of a trouble maker, the cops always treated me cool, mainly because I was always cool with them. FYI, I was a dark skinned, long haired little mexican american punk who liked to get his drink on and thought I was a Rastifari. When I got caught doing something that I knew was wrong, I just admitted it, I didn't start pissing and moaning about the law or the police state. I just had the attitude: "What the hell, you caught me." Even though I had a fair amount of contact with them as a youngster, I never met a bad cop. I can be sure that there are bad ones out there, I just have never met any personally.

Now that I am an older guy, I frequently work with the cops in my work with troubled youth. These guys and ladies are incredibly patient with these juvenile offenders. Sometimes I get pissed because they are too nice to the kids! One cop even fostered one of the kids and has the little guy living in her farkin' home. Ironically, the kid's parents are incarcerated. In addition, I know quite a few cops that are reservists in the military, and have to leave their homes and families for months at a time. I got respect for them. They put themselves out there, they put up with a lot of stuff, but they still seem like pretty nice people despite their stressful job. Just wanted to share my experiences, your mileage may vary. Oh yeah, and as a former reader of "High Times", I don't believe anything Norml has to say.
 
2005-11-15 02:25:18 AM  
don't they know it's available on the internets for free?
 
2005-11-15 02:26:29 AM  
Ostizzle

Sorry, I find it highly unlikely that I'll be getting cuffed by any police officers any time soon because I FOLLOW THE farkING LAW.


WHat's that got to do with not getting arrested?? There are plenty of stories, some here in this thread, about people who did nothigng wrong, but were arrested.

Oh, but I forgot- they don't count to you.

And if it were to occur that some overzealous idiot decided to arrest/abuse me, I wouldn't take my one experience and throw it around internet forums as the gospel.

You'd just 'forget it', Right? Because, after all, it's just one 'overzealous idiot', right? Sure some laws were broken (and maybe a few of your ribs, too!), but hey, you wouldn't say a thing, right? No complaint to the cops, you wouldn't say a word to yor friends, relatives, neighbors, etc, Right? You'd just shut up and be a good little subject, right?

Why is it that is acceptable to stereotype cops as corrupt and power hungry

There are four classifications of cops-

1) those that commit crimes. 'Bad cops'.

2) Those that don't commit crimes, and know about group 1, above, but don't arrest them. Covering up crimes is a crime by itself, so these cops are also 'bad cops'.

3) Those that don't commit crimes, and who arrest groups 1 and 2 (these are pretty much nonexistant- Serpico, anyone?).

4) Cops that don't commit crimes, and who are too stupid to know that there are other cops committing crimes.

SO, cops are bad, bad, nonexistant, or dumb. None of which a cop should be.
 
2005-11-15 02:51:23 AM  
fredklein

Stereotyping is so much easier than thinking, isn't it?
 
2005-11-15 03:07:47 AM  
corn-bread Justice Department crime statistics were released about a month ago. They show that something like 33 percent of all burglaries / thefts were solved or resulted in an arrest.

It would appear that if you are robbed, there may indeed be better people to call than the police as statistically they won't be able to help you anyway.

The same goes for assaults (46 percent solved or with an arrest).


Yeah, we have a prison overcrowding problem in this country because the cops are too lazy to arrest people. Right.
 
2005-11-15 03:14:32 AM  
CruiserTwelve

Stereotyping is so much easier than thinking, isn't it?


I wasn't stereotyping. I was telling the truth. Was there a classification of cop I missed?
 
2005-11-15 03:24:05 AM  
I live about 80ft from East Colfax and Pearl St. in Denver. Crack central. Don't believe me? Pay a visit ANYTIME. SEVERAL police cars are in this area 85% of the time. Doing work I dare any of you cop haters to do!! I'm VERY glad they do it too. If they were not here CONSTANTLY, the rate of B.S. crimes would be astronomically higher in my area. Their efforts are wholeheartedly thanked by myself and all the buisness owners I talk to and support. Surfing through crackheads to get to my favorite food places is not for the meek.

I've had my bad experences with the police too. As I very much enjoy, and have no shame about smokeing all the pot I can get my hands on. (That said, it's VOTEING that will change that, not argueing with cops) I very seldom have troubles though because I am decrete enough to smoke in PRIVATE and I don't STAND ON THE STREET PUSHING IT ON OTHERS!

If I had a gun and badge I'd do a LOT more damage to these asshats than I just read about. That's why I can't be a cop.
And I doubt most of you have the knutts to do what I WATCH them do every day and every night.
They bust 10 crackheads and 15 more take their place and 5 of the 10 they busted are released and soon return. VERY tough work.

Drug policys have got us to this point. Not "currupt" police. Most police would gladly chase down molesters and killers IF the voters would stop requesting them to enforce our misguided "War on Drugs" created by long dead, bias politicians.

Make crack farkin' free at the supermarket and ALL this shady crap INSTANTLY disappears. Crack junkies can do it at their leasure and die early. Hopefully they die before they breed. (natural selection)

Drunks, don't bother me much. Just sad.
Hookers, I have zero problems with.
Crackheads, RELENTLESSLY get in my face, intimidate the people actually walking around GOING somewhere besides the farking street corner, push their asshat way of life on children, drive customers away from our neighborhoods buisnesses, decrease my property value, and get into very bloody fights.

If I could, I'd put on a silly costume and send the bulk of them straight to the hell they are headed for anyway. Thank goodness the police are there insted of me having to be some crazy vigalantie and I can relax and feel safe to sit in my home and just write my complaints.

You want to smoke crack? Fine. Go somewhere private and do it. Keep it out of my face, out of the public eye, and get out of my back farkin yard.

/I don't need HBO where I live.
//Can't believe how many fark posters are defending crackheads and slandering police. You obviously don't live where this is a REAL issue.
 
2005-11-15 03:33:35 AM  
CruiserTwelve

Yeah, we have a prison overcrowding problem in this country because the cops are too lazy to arrest people. Right.


No, we have a prison overcrowding problem because:

1) No serious Death Penalty.
If murder was punished by a march out back the court building and a firing squad, That'd be a serious deterrent and also cut the costs of keeping and feeding a prisoner for life. I've had it up to here with people protesting the Death Penalty because some poor schmuck convicted 30 years ago is proven innocent with DNA tests. Well, we have the damn tests today, so we won't make those kinda mistakes again. Simply enforce the Death Penalty, and if someone is found to have falsified evidence or lied on the stand, give them the same penalty (after all, they murdered the first defendant thru their actions).

2) Arrests for victimless crimes.
If the cops spent the effort they waste busting potheads investigating real crimes, there'd be fewer potheads in jail, and more room for the real crooks. But, god forbid the cops go after the real crooks. There are posts on this thread where people called the cops because they got robbed and the cops told them to call the insurance company,and that they (the cops) wouldn't bother coming out to investigate.

3) Lack of new facilities.
Make the prisoners work!! Make them work, give them a fair wage, and deduct rent, food, and the cost of any fines from their income. They can work (anyone can carry/lay cinderblocks) building new buildings like... schools and jails, to name two.
 
2005-11-15 03:39:23 AM  
fredklein Was there a classification of cop I missed?

Yeah. How about the ones that go out day after day and try to make the place you live better and safer for you? The ones that don't whine about having to wear a bullet proof vest on the job because there are idiots in this world that will kill a cop to avoid taking responsibility for their actions. The ones that treat people politely even when they're called lazy, stupid, anti-social thugs? The ones that will change your wife's flat tire in the rain, that will stand in the hot sun all day directing traffic because there's an accident and you don't want to be late for work? Let's see, that makes up the 95% or so that you missed.
 
2005-11-15 03:42:31 AM  
I have a simple solution to the problem of police brutality: set the punishment for trying to cover it up to about 10 years minimum. Even if it turns out that the cops were in the right to hit their suspect, they should be punished if they try to cover it up.
 
2005-11-15 03:50:38 AM  
Some cops are assholes.
Some people are assholes.
All cops are people.

I don't really know where I'm going with this...
 
2005-11-15 03:51:04 AM  
Barbecue Bob
I live about 80ft from East Colfax and Pearl St. in Denver. Crack central. Don't believe me? Pay a visit ANYTIME. SEVERAL police cars are in this area 85% of the time. Doing work I dare any of you cop haters to do!! I'm VERY glad they do it too.


Well, it seems to me they are not doing a very good job, considering it's still "crack central".
 
2005-11-15 03:51:17 AM  
Hmm that was almost a haiku
 
2005-11-15 03:55:48 AM  
fredklein

1) No serious Death Penalty.

I agree with you on that point, but even a serious death penalty would only eliminate a miniscule number of prisoners.

2) Arrests for victimless crimes

Like what? Do you really think there are a large number of potheads in jail? Most cops don't even arrest "potheads" any more. In most cities marijuana possession isn't even a jailable offense. Now, if you think crack is a victimless crime, see Barbecue Bob's post above. As for the cops not coming out for theft from a vehicle, that's just how life is today. Unless you're willing to pay a heck of a lot more in taxes, cops have limited resources and must have to prioritize their efforts. A simple theft with no suspects has a very low solvability factor, so no cop responds. We're too busy handling the daily shootings, rapes, carjackings and other serious crimes to spend time on the little stuff anymore. People in jail for victimless crimes are a very small number of prisoners.

3) Lack of new facilities.

Again, I agree with you about making prisoners earn their keep. But what if they refuse to work? What do we do, put 'em in jail? In addition, the lack of new facilities is only a result of the core problem, which is too many people in jail. And guess what? Cops put every single one of those thugs in those jails.
 
2005-11-15 04:06:40 AM  
fredklein Well, it seems to me they are not doing a very good job, considering it's still "crack central".

One of the most frustrating periods in my career was working narcotics. I worked Colfax (crack central in the Denver area) almost daily. We arrested crack dealers by the score, but it was fruitless. As long as there's money to be made, there will be someone willing to chance an occasional arrest to make it. Once a crack dealing area is established, and it doesn't take long, it's almost impossible to eradicate it. If the dealers and the customers know where to find each other, they'll continue to cruise that same spot. I've sat in a marked patrol car and watched dealers sell drugs. The dealers know that even if they're arrested they'll just get probation and they'll be right back out in a few days.

Our "war on drugs" is a sham. We should put all that money into treatment programs to stop the craving that America has for cocaine. Once we reduce the demand, the dealers will go away. As it is right now, we arrest a crack addict they spend a night or two in jail, and they're right back on the pipe. If we could arrest them and put them in a treatment facility we'd be a lot better off.
 
2005-11-15 04:14:12 AM  
SinPoker

Some cops are assholes.
Some people are assholes.
All cops are people.


I think you hit the nail on the head. Cops are people. Not all of them are saints, not all of them are sinners. They're people, and they have strengths and weaknesses like anyone else. Yeah, some of them are lazy, some of them are mean-spirited and over-bearing, but all-in-all most of them are just trying to do their job and make it to retirement.

Unfortunately in my profession the sinners tend to get all the press. If cops are involved in a thousand good arrests and make one bad one, which one makes the front page? Which one gets posted on FARK? Some cops arrested the armed guy that killed his girlfriends parents after a dangerous high-speed chase yesterday, but the cops that allegedly used excessive force during a drug stop got posted on FARK.

Oh well.
 
2005-11-15 04:39:01 AM  
CruiserTwelve

Yeah. How about the ones that go out day after day and try to make the place you live better and safer for you?


I'm sure Hitler thought he was making the world "better and safer" by killing Jews and starting a World War. I DON'T want cops trying to make my world "better and safer". I want them to 1) Enforce the Law and 2) OBEY the Law. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
2005-11-15 04:39:02 AM  
Geez, f those cops.
 
2005-11-15 05:05:09 AM  
CruiserTwelve

Like what? Do you really think there are a large number of potheads in jail? Most cops don't even arrest "potheads" any more.


"Marijuana Arrests For Year 2004: 771,608, Record High; FBI Report Reveals"

As for the cops not coming out for theft from a vehicle, that's just how life is today.

'Cops not investigating crime' = 'cops not doing their job' = "just how life is today". Hmmmmm.

Unless you're willing to pay a heck of a lot more in taxes, cops have limited resources and must have to prioritize their efforts.

I pay 1/3 my salary in taxes. So do most people. And we get very little for it. I've NEVER been helped by the police, and I have been hassled by them.

A simple theft with no suspects has a very low solvability factor,

Especially if the cops don't bother to show up.

Again, I agree with you about making prisoners earn their keep. But what if they refuse to work? What do we do, put 'em in jail?

Well, since their pay goes toward rent (of the jail cell) and food... and we can't very well kick them out of jail for not paying... I guess they don't eat.
 
2005-11-15 05:08:49 AM  
Don't read out of context fredklein.
There are so many crack junkies in my area, the cops job is AMAZINGLY difficult. That corner I mentioned is the heart of it, but it's not as if the police can just sit there and wait for the crackheads to blow a bugle. If the cops sit there, they just go a block one way or the next, or the next, or the next. They're more persistant than flys on crap when it comes to harassing people and avoiding the po-po.
As I said, 10 get busted, 15 new goons show up to take their place. That's number was just for an idea of what's happening. The real numbers are much larger. I'd estimate, very conservatively, that 100 arrests are made in a three block radius of me every week and that's still not enough. And overcrowded jails can't afford to keep petty goons from getting released. Denver has even discussed putting up jail TEBTS to deal with all the inmates. What a epic tax burden on everyone!
Police didn't create that. VOTERS did. Misguided drug policys created this stupid situation that drains our resources. Police should be after people who are right now hurting others, but they have to deal with the repercusions of bad lawmaking and chase people who should already be dead. (They are trying to kill themselves with their drugs of choice anyway.) VOTERS should change policys. Police are just doing what they can with the resources and authority they have.

If the police were not near me, it would be worse. Far worse.
The only reason I can safely sit in my building and write my thoughts is the fact that the police are probably within a 1 minute responce of my 911 and even the crackheads know better than to break in to buildings around here. They just wander the area, harassing whoever they can, looking for other junkies and potential junkies(i.e. KIDS), and trying to avoid the police. Thankfully, most crackheads are way to stupid to avoid cops forever. Thankfully the police are willing to come to my area and help with this crisis. I could not possibly do what they are doing. I'd be killed in a hour if I tried.

I wish the cops here had authority to execute every crack pusher on sight. It's more than justified from what I see daily. However, they can't, they won't, they don't.

So is it your opinion, fredklein, that we don't need police because they can't keep up with troublemakers? That thery're doing a poor job?
No police would be nothing short suicidal here.
Read my entire post please.

Cops are not doing a bad job that I've seen. Policy makers are.
The war on drugs is being lost and VOTERS are responsible.
Remember (reading history about) Prohibition on Booze? It created criminals and did not decrease the desire for the substance. It created Al Capone and people like him. Our drug laws are an identical mistake.

It's way past time for a differant, more logical and effective approch.
My personal idea for a solution is to give anykind of junkie whatever drug they want for next to nothing.
Then INSTANTLY:
No more "Al Capones" of the drug world.
No more junkies robbing people to get what they want.
No more eye sore pushers spewing there lifestyle on children just to afford there own addictions.
No more crack whores.
No more nonviolent criminals in jails at taxpayers expence.
Far less addicts will survive to breed and create more disfunctional citizens.
Cops can be more able to chase the people hurting other people.
EVERYONE will be able to walk around my area, and similar areas all over the USA without as much danger and disgust.
What little money the drugs would cost can be taxed and maybe used to balance the stupid budget?

That's my idea for a solution, what's yours?
 
2005-11-15 05:13:03 AM  
CruiserTwelve
As long as there's money to be made, there will be someone willing to chance an occasional arrest to make it.

"Occasional arrest"?!?

I've sat in a marked patrol car and watched dealers sell drugs.

See, this is what I mean. Why didn't you arrest them? By your own words, you 'sat there' and watched a crime happen, and did nothing.

The dealers know that even if they're arrested they'll just get probation and they'll be right back out in a few days.

So arrest them again in a few days. And arrest them again a few days after that. Eventually they'll wise up. Or get stuck in prison under the 'Three Strikes' law.

Once a crack dealing area is established, and it doesn't take long, it's almost impossible to eradicate it. If the dealers and the customers know where to find each other, they'll continue to cruise that same spot.

Makes 'em easier to catch.

If you actually try to catch them.
 
2005-11-15 05:27:45 AM  
"Probable cause, got flaws, like dirty drawers.
Meet me at the corner store so we can start the street wars."

-Fugees
 
2005-11-15 05:32:24 AM  
You've got to be KIDDING??
No fredklein, Crackheads won't "wise up"

And while the cops bust some asshat crackhead 47 times to accomplish nothing. REAL criminals are out killing, rapeing, molesting, ect... and you have all the cops busting people who need to "wise up" Babysitting the disfuntional?
Throwing dollars at dimes there sir.

They are junkies that care about nothing but crack. Period. They don't care about their own life. They don't care about your life. Not a damn thing except getting crack. You can't make them not want crack because you send them to jail.
They will just meet other junkies and discuss how to get more crack. You can't ever possibly make them stop wanting, and doing whatever they can to get crack.
No win fredklein. & Cops catch all the heat for crap laws created by people who seem to know nothing about addictions.

Come on down and watch for yourself. You'll see the epic problem here you seem to think the police can magicaly fix.

Maybe you should join the police force if you got all the answers?
 
2005-11-15 05:45:06 AM  
Barbecue Bob
That's my idea for a solution, what's yours?


1) Legalize drugs. BUT, make any crime done while under the influence punishable as if it were the most serious crime of the type. ie: if you are high and you accidently kill someone, it's automatically considered as serious as Murder 1. Including Death Penalty.

2) Allow citizens to excercise their 2nd Amendment Right. If people were allowed to carry guns freely, there would be a lesser need for the police to 'protect' people, and more free time for the police to investigate crimes. Now you'd think this, combined with #1 above, would lead to lots of drug-fueled shootings. I doubt it. And at least the (sober) victim could fight back and shoot the shooter.

3) Toughen all penalties. Murder? Death Penalty! Make prisoners work, not just lie around all day. Make them pay for their cell space ('rent') and their food! No work, the rent adds up, and they don't get any food until they start working.
 
2005-11-15 07:08:50 AM  
Satan

No matter how much one may hate the police, it is still their job to help you when you need it. In fact, it's the SERVE part of protect and serve. So whether or not I am a cop hater, they get paid to help me when I need it.

I don't particularly like dentists either, but they don't get to take my money and then ignore me.

Cops have to help me when I call, so your point about the haters liking the cops when they need them is moot.
 
2005-11-15 07:27:01 AM  
This thread is useless without video.
 
2005-11-15 07:56:51 AM  
The only thing I like about cops is their high suicide rate.
 
2005-11-15 08:01:05 AM  
Electrify:

You or your friend should e-mail ron at ckln dot fm -- he does a radio show about police abuse and brutality, and what happened to your friend may fall within his areas of interest.
 
2005-11-15 09:51:51 AM  
Breaking news: fredklein gets desperate, brings up Hitler, loses argument entirely. Film at 11.
 
2005-11-15 10:42:54 AM  
About the whole "rent" idea. Instead of not giving them food like one person suggested, give people convicted of lesser crimes shorter jail sentences if the actually work. Or keep the money in an account in the convicts name, and pay them a set wage, when the get out, the get access to the funds.
 
2005-11-15 10:44:15 AM  
the = they x3
 
2005-11-15 11:04:53 AM  
Ostizzle: Sorry, I find it highly unlikely that I'll be getting cuffed by any police officers any time soon because I FOLLOW THE farkING LAW.

You mean like these people? Note that they got a lot worse than just arrested. (From a post I've made before in pot threads):

While nobody has died of marijuana directly in the entire history of civilization (the word "cannabis" comes from the Sumerian / Babylonian word for cannabis hemp, "K(a)N(a)B(a)" and that [cuneiform] is the oldest written language! Thus, the word "cannabis" is from one of the longest-surviving root words in any human language!), many do die as a result of it being illegal. Of course, all of these are vicious drug criminals who get taken out by the DEA and other agencies in the process of doing their valid jobs, and who richly and justly deserve their fate, right?

Vicious drug criminals like: 35-year-old Baptist missionary Veronica Bowers, and her 7-month old daughter Charity, shot down over Peru in April, 2001. "As part of a long-standing arrangement to stop drug shipments, U.S. government tracking provided the information for the Peruvian Air Force to mistakenly shoot down a Cessna plane carrying missionaries. Killed in the incident were Roni Bowers, a missionary with the Association of Baptists for World Evangelism, and her daughter, Charity. As of August, 2003, the United States is considering reinstating the shoot-down program. Perhaps they think by now we've forgotten."

Or 46-year-old Willie Heard, of Oswatomie, Kansas, who heard his 16-year-old daughter cry out in fear in the middle of the night, one night in February, 1999. Mr. Heard, loving husband and father and good protector, took an empty rifle to scare off the burglars or rapists he believed had invaded his home, and marched down the hall to confront them. Turned out that it was SWAT agents on a drug raid, who then shot him dead in "self-defense." Turns out that they were at the wrong house.

Or how about: 14-year-old Ashley Villareal of San Antonio, who was shot and killed in February, 2003 by DEA agents who mistakenly believed that her father (whom they had no warrant for) was driving?

Or how about: 57-year-old Alberta Spruill of Harlem, who died of a heart attack from the shock of having police burst into her home and setting off flash grenades in the middle of one night in May, 2003? They were acting on a tip, but had the wrong address.

This guy looks like a vicious drug lord, right? Actually, he was 75-year-old retired Methodist minister Accelyne Williams of Boston. In March of 2004, an informant gave them his address and a SWAT team battered down his door, wrestled him to the floor, and tied his hands behind his back, where he died of a heart attack. Wrong address again.

Then there's this obvious crook: 39-year-old Kenneth B. Walker, husband, father of a young daughter, respected church-goer, and a Blue Cross / Blue Shield middle manager for 15 years, was pulled over in his SUV less than a year ago (December, 2003) by police during a drug investigation. No drugs nor weapons were found, but that didn't stop Deputy Dave Glisson from fatally shooting Mr. Walker in the head. This was in Columbus, GA.

Or how about 11-year-old Alberto Sepulveda was shot to death in the back while following SWAT instructions and lying face-down on the floor with his hands behind his back during a drug raid in September, 2000? He was a seventh-grader of Prescott Senior Elementary School of Modesto, CA.

Sometimes it's not even an accident or wrong address or bad information. Sometimes it's premeditated:
61-year-old reclusive millionaire Donald P. Scott of Malibu had a ranch that the Los Angeles County Sherrif's Department wanted to seize and forfeit for the local government. They messed up, though, and didn't plant the drugs that they'd intended to plant and upon which the search warrant was based. In October of 1992, a 32-man assault team raided his ranch and shot him dead in front of his wife. No drugs, not even the ones that were supposed to've been planted as phony evidence, were found.

A later official report found: "It is the District Attorney's opinion that the Los Angeles County Sheriffs Department was motivated, at least in part, by a desire to seize and forfeit the ranch for the government. Based in part upon the possibility of forfeiture, Spencer obtained a search warrant that was not supported by probable cause. This search warrant became Donald Scott's death warrant."

19-year-old Tony Marinez of De Valle, TX, was sleeping on the couch in a mobile home that was targeted by a drug raid one night in December of 2001. He sat up and was shot in the chest. He was not the target of the raid.

Finally, onto the topic of medical marijuana, there's this guy: Meet 50-year-old Peter McWilliams of Laurel Canyon, CA, author of this book:
He was a world-famous author and an advocate of medical marijuana, not only because he believed in it in principle, but because it was keeping him alive (he had AIDS and non-Hodgkins lymphoma). After California passed a law legalizing medical marijuana, Peter helped finance the efforts of Todd McCormick to cultivate marijuana for distribution to those who needed it for medical reasons. Federal agents got wind of his involvement, and Peter was a target for his advocacy. He was arrested, and in federal court was prevented from mentioning his medical condition or California's law (a violation of one of the most important foundations of our jurisprudence system, that the accused may bring any relevant evidence to bear). While he was on bail awaiting sentencing, the prosecutors threatened to take away his mother's house (used for bail) if he failed a drug test, so he stopped using the marijuana which controlled his nausea from the medications and allowed him to keep them down. He was found dead on the bathroom floor, choked to death on his own vomit.

For more information on these and (unfortunately) many, many others, visit this site.

Now, who here still thinks that legallizing pot will cause more harm to society than keeping it illegal does? Look those people and their families in the eye and say that to their faces. I double-dog dare you.

Also, to anyone here who still supports the prohibition of this non-addictive, never-once-having-killed-anyone, God-created-and-commanded herb-bearing-seed, would you still support it if it were your kid who was shot by SWAT agents thinking that they were targeting you, and that on false information? Or your wife and infant daughter who get shot out of the skies over Peru while there to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, due to false information supplied by the DEA? Or your mother who drops dead from a heart attack when they break into her house with flash grenades by mistake? Or your 11-year-old son who gets shot in the back in a drug raid while face-down on the ground in obedience to the police that you taught him to trust? Or when some greedy local government decides to use the drug laws as a handy-dandy means to take away your property by framing you for drugs, and kill you or one or more of your loved ones in the process, in full view of others of your loved ones? Or even your husband or father or uncle who chokes to death on his own vomit when refused the only medication that could keep him alive, which was legal in his State, in the process of a Federal kangaroo court witch-hunt trial which trampled Constitutional States's Powers (Tenth Amendment) and among the most important principles of American jurisprudence, etc. etc. etc., all because if we were to legalize it, when somebody, somewhere, might actually use it to (oh, the horror!) have a good time?
 
2005-11-15 11:10:38 AM  
heh heh, I was just listening to Body Count -Cop Killer yesterday. I'm not suggesting or condoning murdering a cop but it just goes to show again why that song was written.
 
2005-11-15 11:10:47 AM  
What might have been a good discussion has been dumb-phucked to death.

Nothing more to see here, move along.
 
2005-11-15 11:35:26 AM  
You know, when you stoop to citing the freakin' Fugees, you have lost the argument...and your mind.
 
2005-11-15 11:54:04 AM  
CruiserTwelve

Yeah, we have a prison overcrowding problem in this country because the cops are too lazy to arrest people. Right.


You're a funny guy. You "refute" my point that the vast majority of crimes are unsolved by implying that over-crowded prisions say otherwise.

THEN you turn around later in the thread and openly admit that 1) Cops often are not sent out for car thefts and 2) Many burglaries are tough to solve due to no suspects.

You have refuted yourself. Well played.
Not very logical or consistent, but well done.
 
2005-11-15 12:16:54 PM  
COMALite J: You mean like these people? Note that they got a lot worse than just arrested. (From a post Ive made before in pot threads):

I probably shouldn't say anything because it's going to look like a cop-out but I honestly don't even want to start on your dumbshiat legalization propaganda. I do like the out of context references to the Bible and playing the sympathy of "servants preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ", however. Funny to watch the stoners who could two shiats about Christianity, much less living a Christian life using this as "LOOK POT SHOULD BE LEGAL" when the rest of the time they're biatching about why Christians shouldn't push their "anti-gay agenda" on America...because America isn't a Christian nation!
 
2005-11-15 12:23:01 PM  
2005-11-15 12:38:35 AM Ostizzle

Why is it that is acceptable to stereotype cops as corrupt and power hungry because of a "pattern" of individuals who had negative experiences of them but everybody and their brother will cry "RACIST!" for suggesting that inner city blacks are more prone to violence? If I were to say that homosexuals act a certain way, negative or not, I'd be labeled a homophobe. But for some reason, bashing police officers who do a job that inarguably contributes to the safety of our communities is perfectly acceptable.


...perhaps you are unable to see the difference between those who are born a specific race/sexual orientation and those who CHOOSE a career that encourages abuse of power and corruption.

Nobody is born a cop. They choose that path.

I'm allowed to hate cops in the same way I'm allowed to hate how much I pay for bad service from my phone company.

/hates the phone company more
 
2005-11-15 12:35:41 PM  
Good point about the difference between hating someone for their race or something of their choosing.

I would still disagree about the encouraging of abuse of power and corruption. Either way, what I said before still applies. Some people hate blacks because they've met a few thugs and neanderthal acting idiots but most reasonable people would agree that that is not an accurate representation of all black people. I believe that this is analagous to people choosing to misrepresent all police officers as criminals because of the stories we hear or the chance encounters we have with a few bad cops. In a city where you have, let's say, 30+ cops on patrol for 12 hours a day, interacting with countless criminals and everyday citizens, I believe it is fair to say that the examples of corrupt behavior we hear about are relatively small in comparison to what they would be if all cops were criminals. But again, the popular choice seems to be to avoid reason, stick your head in the ground, and blindly choose to disrespect or hate some men and women that DO love their communities, their jobs, and helping people.
 
2005-11-15 02:46:45 PM  
corn-bread:

You're a funny guy. You "refute" my point that the vast majority of crimes are unsolved by implying that over-crowded prisions say otherwise.

THEN you turn around later in the thread and openly admit that 1) Cops often are not sent out for car thefts and 2) Many burglaries are tough to solve due to no suspects.


You're avoiding the point of my post, which is that crime rates are so high nowadays (in relation to police resources) that cops just simply don't have the resources to investigate every single crime that occurs. If you're willing to double your taxes, then cities can hire enough cops to come to your house and spend hours investigating the radio being stolen from your car. Until then, cops have to prioritize.

I wish we could investigate every car break-in and burglary, but we have shootings, robberies and the like that take priority.

I used the prison overcrowding fact to illustrate the fact that cops ARE arresting people, and arresting people for serious crimes that require long prison sentences. We didn't decide to stop investigating low solvability crimes out of laziness or incompetence, we did it out of a need to utilize our limited resources elsewhere.
 
2005-11-15 02:55:54 PM  
fredklein: 2) Allow citizens to excercise their 2nd Amendment Right. If people were allowed to carry guns freely, there would be a lesser need for the police to 'protect' people, and more free time for the police to investigate crimes.

I have mixed feelings about this. In Colorado, we have a "right to carry" law that allows anyone with a clean record to obtain a CCW. That's fine. However, the responsible people that are concerned enough about their welfare to obtain a CCW and carry a firearm are also responsible and smart enough to avoid the areas where crimes are being committed. Some guy carrying his gun in a relatively safe area of a city does nothing to prevent the robberies and shootings that occur daily in other parts of that same city. Carrying a gun is also not going to stop some thug from breaking into your car or house when you're not around. Frankly, while I support the right to carry law it really has little overall effect on crime.
 
2005-11-15 03:11:12 PM  
fredklein

I'll respond to your other proposals:

1) Legalize drugs. BUT, make any crime done while under the influence punishable as if it were the most serious crime of the type. ie: if you are high and you accidently kill someone, it's automatically considered as serious as Murder 1. Including Death Penalty.

It's hard enough to convict someone of murder. Throwing in the need to prove someone was under the influence of drugs will just make it harder. In addition, those things (accidently killing someone while under the influence of drugs) are ALREADY illegal.

3) Toughen all penalties. Murder? Death Penalty! Make prisoners work, not just lie around all day. Make them pay for their cell space ('rent') and their food! No work, the rent adds up, and they don't get any food until they start working.

Toughen all penalties? I absolutely agree with you on that, but again it comes down to whether you're willing to pay the taxes necessary to build and staff all the prisons that would be required.

We have the death penalty here in Colorado. I support it, but I have to admit it doesn't work. I'd like to see a return to the old west where they drag the guy out and hang 'em immediately after the judge says "guilty!," but that will never happen. Now it takes years and years to actually carry out a death sentence, and costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to fight all the appeals. Also, the death penalty does not deter murders. People who murder either (a) don't care about the penalty or (b) don't think about the consequences of their act or (c) think they'll never get caught.

As for withholding food and charging rent, you'll have to take that matter up with the Supreme Court. I agree that prison conditions are too easy in this country, but that won't change until the constitution changes which will be never.
 
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