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(MSNBC)   Newly discovered memos show that Enron caused California blackouts to gouge consumers   (msnbc.com ) divider line
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9852 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 May 2002 at 8:52 AM (14 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2002-05-07 10:06:32 AM  
Axis of Evil
N
R
O
N

Damned Republicans....
 
2002-05-07 10:07:10 AM  
That looks like shiat...sorry guys. Unless you're damned republican.
 
fb-
2002-05-07 10:07:29 AM  
Harmonia, Appie,

I agree. War on terrorism is over. Big deal. Yawn.
 
2002-05-07 10:07:31 AM  
Platinim, I do think that the size of a prison population tells you a lot about a country.

I should say that Scotland is second only to Turkey in European terms, mainly due to the war on the poordrugs too.
 
2002-05-07 10:07:40 AM  
There wasn't really "deregulation" in California. Some regulations were removed, but a bunch more were tacked on.

A completely deregulated energy market would have been better than the regulations we ended up with in California. A few intelligent, well-placed regulations would probably have been even better, but that might be too much to ask for.


I agree, but people saying it was the "environment" in CA that gave Enron the impetous it needed to pull this grand larceny is plain stupid talk. Ditto with blaming capitalism.
 
2002-05-07 10:07:51 AM  
Fb-
I bet I could blow the lot on Crack and Hookers in a month.
 
2002-05-07 10:08:56 AM  
Fortheloveof

Who's in charge of the Army? The roads, bridges and highways? Who makes the big decisions about how things get done? A committee?
You know what a camel is? It's a horse built by committee.
 
2002-05-07 10:09:20 AM  
those are the goals I'm trying for in this. No real government, the people you live with are your individual controls.

Eggsactly.

I've found that people are less likely to freak when concepts like a locally-organized, non-nationalistic cooperative society are explained using words of three syllables or less:)
 
2002-05-07 10:09:27 AM  
bigal

that's my main problem, I'll tell you when i have found a way around it.

fb-
one problem, fort knox doesn't have that much gold there anymore anyways. We ended the Gold standard remember?
 
2002-05-07 10:09:39 AM  
all i know is i worked in an internet datacenter during all the blackout mess and it sucked waking up knowing my day was gonna entail blackouts and crossing fingers that UPS' and generators would hold up. thats cake compared to waking up in federal pound you in the ass prison....
 
2002-05-07 10:10:38 AM  
Anarcho-communism may sound attractive, but believe me, it'd never work.

Nice to hope, though.
 
2002-05-07 10:12:40 AM  
Platinim, I do think that the size of a prison population tells you a lot about a country.

Well, it does, but I don't think you can just hang that statistic out there during a debate and think it's going to mean much once someone else brings up the other factors involved in those incarceration rates.

Speaking of which, anyone rememeber what happened to those 1 000 Arab/Muslim guys "detained" last fall? How many are out of custody? Were any actually connected to terrorist groups at all?

And when will Ken Lay go on trial for the crimes committed by his company?
 
2002-05-07 10:13:23 AM  
also in a communist state(the one i'm working for) if you don't work you get kicked out. period. (btw i'm for anarcho-communism.)

1) Someone has to decide whether you work or not, and someone has to kick people out. It'll definitely not be "all" the people deciding, in case there are more than 10 people in the community.
2) There is no such thing as anarcho-communism. Communism means dictatorship. See point 1.
3) The problem with Communism really is that that someone who decides whom to "kick out" is allowed to choose very arbitrarily, and the amount of people getting "kicked out" tends to become _huge_.
 
2002-05-07 10:14:37 AM  
Fortheloveof
One answer is: a big assed computer.

Don't know if you have but try reading some Iain M Banks. He's got some good thoughts on the matter.
 
2002-05-07 10:14:47 AM  
mayoboy,

think sweden, each 'civilian' is armed, and part of the education system is selfdefense. And as i said direct representation. Working on a road? fine that is work, you get fed, a house, clothing, etc. the farmer farms you build, both are needed. The most important part is to make sure everyone is doing essential tasks, and everyone realizes all the work as essential. A standing military is not nessecary, or even desirable. It just leads to tension with the neighbors.
 
2002-05-07 10:15:09 AM  

This isn't about communism/capitalism, not really. I doubt anybody here thinks that China is a Worker's Paradise. This is about a huge company, with incredible financial leverage (ie. ability to make their money generate more money, put pressure on governments, buy politicians etc.) abusing the capitalist system to make scads of $$ by essentially scamming the citizens of the United States. Adam Smith, who codified the idea of the "free market", also said that it was neccessary for governments to REGULATE large financial entities because otherwise they would egregiously abuse both their workers and their customers in order to maximize profits. He didn't think all markets should be completely "free", he just came up with the economic theory of the idealized free market which could be used to analyze real economic systems.


The Enron case is a perfect example of exactly how an entity with vast financial resources can SUBVERT the free market by illegally manipulating their finances and acting covertly. If the consumer has no choice, the market is not "free". If companies hide information from the consumer, the market is not "free".

 
2002-05-07 10:16:15 AM  
And when will Ken Lay go on trial for the crimes committed by his company?

Just before the 2004 election would be my guess.
 
2002-05-07 10:17:00 AM  
05-07-02 10:14:47 AM Fortheloveof
mayoboy,

think sweden, each 'civilian' is armed, and part of the education system is selfdefense. And as i said direct representation. Working on a road? fine that is work, you get fed, a house, clothing, etc. the farmer farms you build, both are needed. The most important part is to make sure everyone is doing essential tasks, and everyone realizes all the work as essential. A standing military is not nessecary, or even desirable. It just leads to tension with the neighbors.


Pardon me for interrupting, but what's to stop the next "anarcho-communist" enclave from killing everyone in your enclave, and stealing your food and supplies if they get sick of working?
 
2002-05-07 10:17:19 AM  
Why in Hell we don't we firebomb a few corporate offices and lynch a baker's dozen G.O.P. suits in front of their mansions is beyond me!

I'm not trying to be funny, I'm not trying to start a flamewar, but why are we taking it almost daily from these greedy motherf**kers?

Thomas Jefferson said we should have a revolution every twenty years. How about we have one now - French flavored!
 
2002-05-07 10:17:40 AM  
Kapital
And what are the odds on a "Presidential Pardon" just after said election?
 
2002-05-07 10:18:08 AM  
Coelacanth, you just missed your chance. Le Pen was defeated over the weekend.
 
2002-05-07 10:19:44 AM  
bigal,
Iain M Banks is a good place to find material.

ironbar
i won't take your word on it, it hasn't been tried, until it has it can still work.

xynhr,
direct representation can work. The community as a whole decides.
 
2002-05-07 10:19:59 AM  
BoCoMoFo:Republicans are not greedy for the most part. They simply believe you should have the right to keep what is yours--you kbow, since you EARNED it!!!!!

I have one question to ask you. Do you think Enron "earned" this money? The Republicans (and I acknowledge, some Democrats) believe they did.

If all you can come up with to repudiate differing opinions is to call people "commies", then you are a pretty pathetic character.
 
2002-05-07 10:19:59 AM  
BUG
majority of people at Enron either knew about this and/or participated.

i feel less and less for them

I'm sure none of you give a shiat about this, but having worked for Enron, I know first hand that your statement above is bullshiat. True there were a bunch of people who knew what was happening, but there were more people that didnt know. You have no idea what is is like having worked for them and having that stigma attached to your resume for life. Not only did we get farked by the company we trusted, but now we will forever have that name attached to our resumes, and believe me people judge based on that. I dont expect nor do I want any sympathy from anyone, but I live this daily and just because the company filed bankruptcy doesnt mean it has ended for us. so before you sit in your rose colored world and pass down your judgement on us make sure of you know what your talking about, because I sure the shiat (nor are any of the people I worked with) living high off the hog. We are standing in the unemployment line, trying to fend off the bill collectors because we too lost everything we worked years for.
 
2002-05-07 10:20:46 AM  
I wonder if anyone died as a result of rolling blackouts? You know, senior citizen gets heatstroke in LA, accident at a dead traffic light, something like that.

[image from lavender.fortunecity.com too old to be available]

I think we can try 'em for murder.
 
2002-05-07 10:21:08 AM  
Someone has to decide whether you work or not, and someone has to kick people out. It'll definitely not be "all" the people deciding, in case there are more than 10 people in the community.

That "someone" deciding whether you work or not is... you. You decide how you'll contribute to your own growth, and the success of the community.

And it can easily be all the people of a community deciding. I've been involved in consensus decision-making before involving anywhere from five to twenty to more people. It can work, and work well. There are ways of involving every member of a group while not requiring every person to speak up at once, and there are definitely ways to do it without requiring a permanent body of chosen "representatives" to do all the thinking and rule-making.

There is no such thing as anarcho-communism. Communism means dictatorship. See point 1.

You may find this enlightening.
 
2002-05-07 10:21:29 AM  
BigAl, hopefully Lay will get a Presidential pardon in late 2004/early 2005. That will mean that Bush was defeated.

3Horn
 
2002-05-07 10:22:23 AM  
ironbar,

the same thing that stops you. besides if one of the "enclaves" (as you call them, not a bad name) is attacked, the "overclave" (?)(meaning the other enclaves) find out they can act as they see fit.
 
2002-05-07 10:23:38 AM  
BigAl:
Depends on who wins the election.
 
2002-05-07 10:25:28 AM  
Harmonia- I'm butting in, but I saw this this morning, and thought of you.

China honors new rich as "Model Workers"
 
2002-05-07 10:25:32 AM  
dragon,
thanks for that, your explaination came out better than mine did.
 
2002-05-07 10:25:57 AM  
Funny.. all you dittoheads bleating about how this wasn't illegal, or it was really California's fault and blah blah blah.. I bet you still also believe that Democrats are soft on crime, right? Willie Horton and all that?

Glad that doublethink is working out for you.
 
2002-05-07 10:25:58 AM  
PlatinumDragon, I do believe 5-20 people can work anything out among themselves, but it's ludicrous to believe 5-20 million people would.

As I said, in *no* communist community is it the *people* deciding things. It's the propaganda suggesting people that they are always in charge, while deep inside it's always clear-cut dictatorship.

Though, I'd choose communism over anarchism any day.
 
2002-05-07 10:26:43 AM  
"overclave" (?)(meaning the other enclaves) find out they can act as they see fit.

Except the three different bodies have three different ideas on how do do things and nothing gets accomplished. Meanwhile, the strong leader takes over the weak leaderless enclaves and suddenly he's building his own country.
 
2002-05-07 10:27:48 AM  
Ctenidae, that's an interesting article.

In his speech marking the Communist Party' s 80th anniversary last year, President Jiang explained the decision to admit businessmen into the party and said it was done out of the need to "expand our popular support and increase our social influence".

And while the appeal of party membership for private entrepreneurs is growing, the urban jobless scoff at the idea of Communist Party somehow improving their downtrodden life.

"We no longer love each other," said Liu Wei, a laid-off state worker-turned-cab driver. "The Communist Party courts those who have money and pay high taxes."


Communism surrenders.
 
2002-05-07 10:27:56 AM  
Good point, MayoBoy.
 
2002-05-07 10:28:57 AM  
OK, idiots, listen up. This is one point that I think that everyone is missing. When Gov. Gray "dumba$$" Davis needed electricity, he said, "Sell me electricity right now. I need everything that I can get" As a sales manager, when someone tells me that, I automatically add 10% on. If they are going to take everything I have, I am not going to give it away. Period.
This is silly to say that Enron took advantage of California. They did not.
They took advantage of a situation where something was needed and they were one of the few people that could offer it. That was all. IMO, they did not do anything wrong in California.
Where they screwed up was in their books. They and A/A did some not very bright accounting methods that were caught.

END OF STORY
 
2002-05-07 10:30:15 AM  
Just proves again 9/10 what I have been saying for ages.

China is not socialist its state capitalism, thanks CT for more proof.
 
2002-05-07 10:30:21 AM  
MayoBoy,
And the definition of an elephant: a mouse built to government specifications.
 
2002-05-07 10:31:52 AM  
Now normally I stay out of the whole liberal/conservative debate, but really guys, it has just sunk to the level of pure name calling and slandering. At least if you are gonna argue, play nice when you do.
 
2002-05-07 10:32:27 AM  
Harmonia- So you agree that Communism does not work at all, and never really did?
 
2002-05-07 10:33:17 AM  
yes different enclaves have different ideas, they don't have to work together if they don't agree. also just because you don't have a government does not mean you are weak or leaderless. The community can choose to follow someone if they so desire, for a brief or long term reason. I don't think that will happen, but it could. Also why would anyone want to reenslave themselves to a government by following some "leader" (read slavemaster) into a "government" that will really only benefit him and those he wants it too.
 
2002-05-07 10:33:19 AM  
Appie

Couldn't be - they're to closely related. It would have to be something like "A jewelry box built to government specifications".
 
2002-05-07 10:35:01 AM  
Sheepish , your analogy only counts if you routinely setup several smaller comapnies, and trade your product back and forth among them to increase it's price well above the original value.

3Horn
 
2002-05-07 10:35:12 AM  
Want a smoking gun? How 'bout a smoking bazooka?
 
2002-05-07 10:36:26 AM  
"Thats right people are only motivated by money, thats why firefighters are paid more than CEO's, otherwise they wouldnt do all those dangerous things."

How does that prove that people aren't motivated by money? Firefighters get paid less because for every guy with an MBA, there's probably hundreds of high school GED's willing to train for public service. Did you see the 9-11 special with the firehouse scenes? I doubt those guys had the opportunity to choose between the cushy 6 figure CEO position and the firehouse job.
 
2002-05-07 10:36:47 AM  
Fortheloveof

Because if you look at it honestly, people are basically sheep. They have to have a leader (herdmaster) and direction (sheep dogs). If left to their own devices, with no leader and no direction, the majority of people would die of starvation and be overcome by barbarians.
 
2002-05-07 10:37:29 AM  
I do believe 5-20 people can work anything out among themselves, but it's ludicrous to believe 5-20 million people would.

Then there wouldn't be groups of 5-20 million people making decisions. I should note that under most anarchist strains of thought, the concept of a "nation" composed of millions of people and delineated by borders is anathema, as it implies restricting the movement of certain people and limiting certain privileges of habitation and control to certain people.

However, there are ways to facilitate decision-making among very large groups, through a carefully-designed and established spokescouncil-style system. However, such massive decision-making bodies would be temporary and very, very rare, only formed in the most dire situations (say, a looming natural disaster over a large region). Most decisions made at a federal or state level today would either be made by a community, or wouldn't even come up as issues.

In an anarchist framework, the largest political unit with any form of permanence would likely be a regional spokescouncil, probably composed of communities and organizations over the area of a county - and that body would have no greater powers than any individual. The decision-making bodies are there for organization and conflict resolution; implementation is still left to individuals and communities, and people may organize (or not) as works best for them.
 
2002-05-07 10:37:40 AM  
MayoBoy,
You got a point there.
 
2002-05-07 10:39:10 AM  
Appie

Usually, I wear a hat to hide it.
 
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