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(MSNBC)   Newly discovered memos show that Enron caused California blackouts to gouge consumers   (msnbc.com) divider line 293
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9844 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 May 2002 at 8:52 AM (12 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»

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2002-05-07 09:31:10 AM
Bah its nothing to do with capitalism/communism. He broke the law and he should get pounded in the ass.

If he gets away then its the fault of the government which you commies love so much. (And dont pretend that a commie/socialist government is any less corruptable then a capitalist one.)
2002-05-07 09:31:39 AM
" I realize just how uneducated...."

"No way--whos play Hendrix?......"

2002-05-07 09:31:44 AM
Looks like Al Gore's buddies are in deep shiat.
2002-05-07 09:31:53 AM
I think it should be illegal for one company to own another company. If someone wants to sell their business, they should either sell their percentage of it, or if they own more than 50% of the business, liquidate it.
2002-05-07 09:32:44 AM

Oh, in that case it's justified ;-) And my panties are still clean...

No offense intended, none taken... my shot are as cheap as anyone's

(dang this takes the fun out of discussion like this, don't you think?... lemme try that again
FoMoCoBo, you're a farking fascist! Viva el revolucion! ;) )
2002-05-07 09:33:43 AM
For all of you new kids, Harmonia is a Scottish male.

2002-05-07 09:36:04 AM
Carlos, exactly. Based on the story, it looks like Enron did break the law and at best followed unethical practices, but the Socialists running California created the environment for it.

Side note to stinky hippies: CALIFORNIA DID NOT IMPLEMENT ENERGY DEREGULATION! If they deregulated, then how could there have been price controls in effect?
2002-05-07 09:36:15 AM

good one.
2002-05-07 09:38:13 AM
DOWN with the capitalist regulation of how i write spanish!!
DOWN with the sexist word genders!!

viva THE revolution

2002-05-07 09:38:14 AM
2002-05-07 09:38:30 AM
Enron did break the law and at best followed unethical practices, but the Socialists running California created the environment for it.

So it's Califorinia's fault that Enron is a bunch of crooks?
2002-05-07 09:39:12 AM
Good thing Bush let Enron write his energy policy for the country.

I guess buying a candidate into office has it's advantages.

2002-05-07 09:39:32 AM
Communism can work

china != communism
china = marxism
USSR = marxism

true communism has not been tried since the celts (gaul celts, not the goths).
2002-05-07 09:39:43 AM
Ken Lay has a purdy mouth.

He will have fun in jail.
2002-05-07 09:42:37 AM
So it's Califorinia's fault that Enron is a bunch of crooks?

No, it's California's fault that their power system is so screwed up. Enron took advantage of that and got caught. Enron is responsible for their own actions.

Watch the same thing happen in Hawaii if they end up regulating the price of gasoline.
2002-05-07 09:43:12 AM
That's why there needs to be *some* regulation!

Good thing Enron got stopped

Bad thing that the CEO's ripped people off and stole their money.

Kenneth Lay should be tatooed with swasticas and roomed with a rastafarian in prison.

Now... if we could only find that asshole who screwed over Global Crossing and ran off with $400 million
2002-05-07 09:43:19 AM

Communism was practiced by the first Pilgrim's in the States and they nearly starved. Read the REAL history of Thanksgiving. They florished when they gave everyone property rights and there was INCENTIVE to produce.
2002-05-07 09:44:58 AM
BoCoMoFo, I am a socialist. China is full of Western owned factories churning out toys for Mcdonalds, so going there wouldnt really sute me.

So Bocomofo, hows the portfolio?
2002-05-07 09:44:59 AM
This is just one more reason I can't stand Enron Hubbard and his stupid Diabetics books.
2002-05-07 09:45:24 AM
So, Harmonia, you've succeeded in igniting the colonists again.

Surely you're aware that capitalism is a system, outside of which Enron was acting. There are laws regulating the baser instincts of participants, which it appears they violated with impunity (and glee, even).

Unfortunately, like any human-designed system, it leaks, and those fatherless individuals are likely to get away with too much of their ill-gotten gains.

At least we may take some solace in the fact that the market is now some 10% smaller than it was, much of the reduction permanent, as we were incented to figure out how to use less power.
2002-05-07 09:46:03 AM
It's california's fault that they're scared of nuclear power.

'nuff said.
2002-05-07 09:46:40 AM
By the way, for all the conservatives making the claim that this was caused by "socialists", please keep in mind that it was Republican Governor Pete Wilson who signed energy deregulation into law.

2002-05-07 09:47:16 AM
Ken Lay won't go to jail, Fastow won't, not even that cocksmoker from Arthur Andersen who testified with the "I was just following orders, mein herr" won't.

That's what sucks the worst; the criminals go free becasue the head crook is in the White house.
2002-05-07 09:47:18 AM
I think an easy answer would be to make the former Enron executives pay back the consumers. Anything they earn over the minimum wage gets taken as taxes. If they don't earn enough then their internal organs get auctioned off to make up some of the difference. Seem fair?

I would suggest 'the chair' instead, but there isn't enough electricity left to run it.
2002-05-07 09:47:20 AM
Remember when California's power problems were the fault of tree-hugging hippies who wanted that "environmental concern" and "green energy" stuff? Yep, Enron had nothing at all to do with the state's power problems. It was all those commie hippies.

Funny that when a company finds itself unable to act ethically, it's still the government's fault. Not that I'm a fan of handing everything over to a few people acting as the State, I just find the implication humourous.
2002-05-07 09:47:22 AM
Well thats why they pay me the big bucks Cardinal

"Surely you're aware that capitalism is a system, outside of which Enron was acting"

Nope, Enron was classic capitalism, screw everyone to make a profit, but make sure you buy yourself some politicians in case it goes wrong.
2002-05-07 09:49:48 AM
05-07-02 09:39:32 AM Fortheloveof
Communism can work

Ah! Thanks for clearing that up. That explains why the kids in North Korean orphanages are starving to death.

Communism will never work because it attempts to subvert the natural human desire to better oneself, whether that be monetarily, materially, or by other means. Communism punishes people for trying to better themselves, and rewards the laziest in society. Another reason communism will never work: a communist nation's leaders get fat, rich, and happy off the labor of the proleteriat(sp), which defeats the precepts of communism from the outset. Did we ever see Soviet leaders standing in line at Moscow butcher shops and bakeries to buy food? Nope. Did we ever see them live in little crackerbox apartments? Nope. They live way far and above everyone else. They were able to better themselves, yet they deny that same right to their fellow countrymen. Hypocrites.
2002-05-07 09:50:49 AM

and the celt sacked/ransomed rome how many times?

Besides that too, wasn't true communism, as you pointed out the colonist didn't have incentive to work well. In true communism, the individual improves as the community improves. Also they, like most of the other colonist spent most their time looking for gold instead of growing food. That tends to cause problems too you know.
2002-05-07 09:51:23 AM
Capitalism= Corruption & freedom
Communism= A little less corruption & no freedom.

Hmmmm, I chose door number one!
2002-05-07 09:52:18 AM
Reading these comments, I realize just how little I know about the economy. I bow to you guys' superior intellect.

How about capping companies at $1 billion? Would that be okay?
2002-05-07 09:53:10 AM
Capitalism Includes the legal system designed to deal with market failure (monopoly power, fraud, market manipulation, as here, etc.).

There are pros and cons to it, surely--but Enron happens to be a poor example of either. The flaws that allowed Enron to flourish--briefly--are not systemic. Crooks are everywhere.

Or are you saying there are no crooks in Socialism? No great train robberies?
2002-05-07 09:53:48 AM
"Capitalism is indeed good. Unethical greed and taking advantage of people for your own profit is not."

Capitalism = Unethical greed and talking advantage of people for their own good.

Methinks there is something wrong with your statement.

Also this needs the OBVIOUS tag, not PSA.
2002-05-07 09:54:34 AM

What incentive would people have to succeed if there is a cap on success?
2002-05-07 09:56:03 AM

Thats right people are only motivated by money, thats why firefighters are paid more than CEO's, otherwise they wouldnt do all those dangerous things.
2002-05-07 09:56:45 AM
Seriously. So Enron conned some idiots out of their money. Big deal.

And conning people out of their hard-earned money is perfectly KO, unless it's the government doing it.
2002-05-07 09:56:46 AM
also in a communist state(the one i'm working for) if you don't work you get kicked out. period. (btw i'm for anarcho-communism.)
2002-05-07 09:58:22 AM
You fail to realize that different people are motivated by different things and we need all of those different people in order to succeed.
2002-05-07 09:58:48 AM
This is about rampant corruption and deregulation.

I am unable to see what the communism/capitalism argument has to do with this.

You telling me the old Soviet mandarins weren't corrupt?
The Chinese upper leadership isn't corrupt?
North Korean leadership isn't hoarding food from their people?
That price fixing works?

2002-05-07 09:59:23 AM
MayoBoy: I think that when companies get to the $1 billion/year earning bracket, the individual who started it is largely out of the picture in the day-to-day running of the company. At this point, the company would be spun off into smaller subsiduaries, who can then start toward th $1 billion/year earnings goal.

Wait a minute. Am I being naive to think that there wouldn't be some control held by the parent company? Probably. Maybe that's why this hasn't been enacted.

I guess my initial point was that companies can get too big so that they're too powerful for everyone's good.

I need a beer. *Psshhhhht* Mmmm. Beer.
2002-05-07 09:59:28 AM
Well at least I can do Ti Chi in the morning and not get dragged off to some re-education camp like in China.
2002-05-07 09:59:30 AM
(btw i'm for anarcho-communism.)

Don't even try to throw terms like that around here. About three people will get it, the other fifty will see the words "anarchy" and "communism" and blow an artery.

I'm for freedom, cooperation, sharing, and mutual respect for person and life - all the things my parents tried to teach me when I was five.
2002-05-07 10:01:57 AM

as i said that isn't communism, that is marxism.
at the same time with anarcho-communism, the individuals in the community are in a direct republic, instead of USA republic. There will be no "government officials" to take care of.
2002-05-07 10:02:53 AM
Frolixo, remind me again, which nation has the highest proportion of its population incarcerated?
2002-05-07 10:04:05 AM
A fantastic system, but on a small scale. Kibbutz works very well, try and scale it up to a nation and there are too many variables to control and everything goes to shiat.
2002-05-07 10:04:05 AM
This is about rampant corruption and deregulation.

There wasn't really "deregulation" in California. Some regulations were removed, but a bunch more were tacked on.

A completely deregulated energy market would have been better than the regulations we ended up with in California. A few intelligent, well-placed regulations would probably have been even better, but that might be too much to ask for.
2002-05-07 10:04:22 AM
Sprotzek: 'dems fightin' wards, partner. ;)
2002-05-07 10:05:04 AM

That's because China is actually smarter about somethings than the US. China just shoots the troublemakers. Guess what, no more trouble.
2002-05-07 10:05:22 AM

In the end, that argument is just playing scoreboard games. Many of the people in Chinese jails are there for political reasons - they rubbed the state the wrong way. No sense trying to justify that if you're for freedom.

On the other side, a significant portion of those incarcerated in the U.S. are there due to the War on (Some) Drugs, itself an example of widespread government corruption that has eroded ideals of freedom. Not to mention how much a certain intelligence agency is making off the black market...
2002-05-07 10:05:26 AM

those are the goals I'm trying for in this. No real government, the people you live with are your individual controls.
2002-05-07 10:06:04 AM
...Microsoft continues to generate huge amounts of free cash flow.

At the end of last year, according to the company's most recent filings, its cash (and short-term investments that can be converted to cash in less than a year) totaled a whopping $38.2 billion. The Microsoft juggernaut continues to generate another $1 billion a month, putting the total cash today well above $40 billion.

This is a mind-bogglingly large pile of dough. No other nonfinancial firm has more liquid money at its disposal, and only a handful of banks do. It's more cash than Ford, ExxonMobil and Wal-Mart have combined, and nearly four times as much as Intel, the tech company with the next largest cash balance. It is enough to buy the entire airline industry -- twice. Or all the gold in Fort Knox, four times over. It is enough to buy 23 space shuttles or every major professional baseball, basketball, football and hockey team in America. It is an enviable stash. Who wouldn't love to have a bank account like that?
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