Congress has approved more than 300-billion dollars for military needs and reconstruction in Iraq, as well as Afghanistan.


Wow. Iraq seems at this point to be the ultimate bottomless money-pit. Probably not a popular idea, but I wonder if anyone ever considered it might be cheaper, in terms of money, lives and ongoing stability, to just offer Saddam and his family a couple of billion to get the f*ck out of Iraq back in 2003?

Violence in Iraq hinders reconstruction?

Hell you say!

Mother got a new job?

Mission accomplished my arse!

I'm sick of Iraq. I'm sick of the Middle East. I'm sick of Islamic extremists wanting to kill everyone who isn't as insane as they are. I'm sick of our executive branch being the personal farktoys of the Saud Royal Family.

We just need to expand solar, wind, geothermal and nuclear power. Expand use of hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles and hybrid vehicles. In short, wean ourselves off of middle eastern oil. Then we can pack up and leave the middle east once and for all... then, and only then, will the mission be accomplished.

Not to start a flame war, but I don't care what happens to the middle east. We've done enough damage as a nation to the region. Let's just leave and never come back.

Of course it is; that's the insurgents' game-plan.

They know they can't beat the US militarily, and as long as we can keep the place from blowing up completely they'll eventually lose what little support from the public they have left. This is called "asymmetric warfare": Avoid attacking your opponent directly, but keep attacking soft targets under their protection in the hope that it'll discourage your opponent enough to say fark it and go home.

This is why the Democrats are on the enemy's side here. They've already subscribed to the insurgents' game plan.

Captain obvious also mentioned to me that if you di'int 'destruct' something, you wouldn't have to 'reconstruct' something.

WADR esperton, your idea was um, (can I say "dumb?")

"This is why the Democrats are on the enemy's side here."

Wow. That certainly didn't take long.

You should donate your next paycheck to Iraq reconstruction efforts. That'll stick it to the terrorists.

Mouser: This is why the Democrats are on the enemy's side here.

What a load of krap,

First of all, the Dems supported this war as much as the Republidems, and second of all, who exactly is the "enemy" of whom?

Nobody in Iraq is my enemy, nobody in Iraq ever stole my money, nobody in Iraq ever carjacked me and humiliated me.

Check out Xaxors comic, and then rethink your "enemy" status.
/I think You are the enemy

Mouser - "This is why the Democrats are on the enemy's side here."

Wheeeee!

Arg... didn't mean that entire rant to be in boldface.

Sorry.

CanSomeonePleaseKilltheChristmasShoes: Nobody in Iraq is my enemy

When we refer to enemies, we are referring to those guys who are killing and maiming our soldiers and civilians over there as well as the government and people they are trying to protect.

AFAIK the Germans never came over and started carjacking people or stealing peoples' wallets here in America either, nor have pretty much all of our past 'enemies'.

In fact, the only enemy that ever came over to America and started stealing our shiat was Britain, and that was 230 years ago, and then again 40 years later.

*casts suspicious eye at UK*

Instead of spending HUNDREDS of BILLIONS of dollars into the region, just imagine what our nation could do if we spend that money on ourselves.

It'd get wasted, that's what I imagine would happen. For example, my city still has a pretty harsh infrastructure with some failing sewer systems and storm drains. It can be a bit of a problem from time to time.

We also have recently had to turn off half our streetlights for lack of funds (though they're back on now, I believe), and our police and fire-fighters both are going without adequate pay.

Yet, what program has been going on for years and will continue to draw support from the treasury? Why, the project to rebuild every street curb in the whole damn city, that's what. They're ripping up the old ones whether they need to be ripped up or not and replacing them with brand new curbs. Everywhere -- the entire city one street at a time.

Thank god they're saving us from those dangerous, dangerous curbs, man. Much better than, say, eliminating the periodic flooding the south-east side sees during heavy rains.

YOUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK!

...and the slow pace of reconstruction is making the population less content which is the kind of thing that tends to help the insurgents.

bbcrackmonkey:


CanSomeonePleaseKilltheChristmasShoes: Nobody in Iraq is my enemy

When we refer to enemies, we are referring to those guys who are killing and maiming our soldiers and civilians over there as well as the government and people they are trying to protect.

Who is "we" kimosabe?
BTW you are aware that defending yourself from foriegn aggression and invasion is legal according to international law, the Hague/Geneva, natural law- and that the Nuremburg tribunal established that unprovoked invasion of a soveriegn state is the absolute definition of "war crime?"

In fact, the only enemy that ever came over to America and started stealing our shiat was Britain, and that was 230 years ago, and then again 40 years later.

Which is why
A- we should have kept our a$$e$ out of WW1, and
B- If we did have to pile on, it should have not been on the English side, who in 1914, were pretty fresh after having burned Washington DC.

But we always kiss out enemies ass, and betray our friends so why should WW1 be any different.
/Serbia

Captain Obvious also figured out why my Dishwasher stopped working and started smelling bad! Is there ANYTHING he can't do??

/yes I KNOW it's MR. Obvious
//Long time listener, first time called

B- If we did have to pile on, it should have not been on the English side, who in 1914, were pretty fresh after having burned Washington DC.

You do realize that this happened over 100 years before, yeah?

Captain obvious should have been there in 2003 to tell Bush it was a bad idea to invade, or at least that it was a bad idea to both remove a government AND also purge everyone from government who knew how to run the place.

Violence happens in situations where there's a complete and utter lack of authority... whodathunkit?

"B- If we did have to pile on, it should have not been on the English side, who in 1914, were pretty fresh after having burned Washington DC."

Mon tete, il'assplode!

NineInchNader:

We also have recently had to turn off half our streetlights for lack of funds (though they're back on now, I believe), and our police and fire-fighters both are going without adequate pay.

Streetlights, police and fire departments are 3 perfect examples of government wasting taxpayers money, so they are all better off turned off, and fired, and let's sell the left over equipment to the Soviet Union or some other police state who really wants teh krap.

Espertron:

The region has been a toilet of violence, extremism, fanaticism, terrorism, despotism, tyranny and occupation for over 60 years.

OK that's a dumb thing to say (though it's your opinion OK)
I know a guy who took his family back BACK to Iran because he found the police state to stifling HERE. He went back to Iran w/ his family for the freedoms.

Instead of spending HUNDREDS of BILLIONS of dollars into the region, just imagine what our nation could do if we spend that money on ourselves.

"our Nation?" You meen the con-artists in government?
You want to creat another huge government "pretend to make energy" boondoggle?

Let the Middle Easterners take charge of their own destiny for better or for worse. Of course, that will never happen if we are dependent upon their oil like some smack-addicted junkie. It means we will be involved in their affairs...

BS, all Saddam ever wanted to do was sell US his oil, and invade his weaker neighbors.

I'm sick of Iraq. I'm sick of the Middle East. I'm sick of Islamic extremists wanting to kill everyone who isn't as insane as they are.

You are a Republican troll couching your demonization with pretend "Bush is Saudi Puppet" language.

All Islamics want is us to "GTFO of their Moslem lands" and maybe stop bombing them. Wow that really makes them INSANE "THEY DON"T LIKE BEING BOMBED OMG!!!"

We just need to expand solar, wind, geothermal and nuclear power. Expand use of hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles and hybrid vehicles. In short, wean ourselves off of middle eastern oil. Then we can pack up and leave the middle east once and for all... then, and only then, will the mission be accomplished.

What a load of BS.
Oil is cheap now, so let's buy it.
When it gets too expensive, we can let the engineers in the United States develop alternative technologies to power our industries.
/oops I forgot they are all working for NASA shooting off rockets at the moon. (wasting TONS of enery and $$$$$$)

You were pretty unsure which side to join during WWII too if I read things correctly. You all seem pretty quick to point out that you helped us and saved the world from the Nazis etc...

"B- If we did have to pile on, it should have not been on the English side, who in 1914, were pretty fresh after having burned Washington DC."

*gets his white out and pen*

Yep, I've got a new winner for the stupidest thing I've ever read on Fark.

Streetlights, police and fire departments are 3 perfect examples of government wasting taxpayers money, so they are all better off turned off, and fired, and let's sell the left over equipment to the Soviet Union or some other police state who really wants teh krap.

It's... well... what? You don't like the Fire Department? Or is this sarcasm that's sneaking in past my radar? Are you suggesting that we each, as citizens, fight fires on our own with garden hoses and super soakers?

Or are you simply suggesting the privatization of emergency services?

..its better to fight them there, than in america?

CanSomeonePleaseKilltheChristmasShoes

No need to sling insults. I haven't called you any demeaning names. I haven't called your opintions 'dumb.' You are the one being insulting and offensive. I can assure you, I am not a 'conservative troll'.

All I'm saying is that perhaps, just perhaps, the Middle East, will be better off if we stay out of their affairs. I believe we would be. Let them manage their own destiny. If, for example, Saudi Arabia and other Middle Eastern neighbors are scared shiatless that some dictator is attacking/conquering his neighbors, perhaps they should take the initiative and defend themselves instead of the US doing it for them (and charging us for oil all the while).

Think of it as... the Prime Directive from Star Trek. You wouldn't call Captain Picard a conservative troll... WOULD YOU? Hmmmmm?



/not politically conservative
//definiately not a Bush supporter
///doesn't consider the USA, as your Iranian friends called it, a police state. Not yet, anyways. I don't see any women being forced to cover their hair/faces or denied traveling or voting rights.

clevershark:

ME- B- If we did have to pile on, it should have not been on the English side, who in 1914, were pretty fresh after having burned Washington DC.

THEE-You do realize that this happened over 100 years before, yeah?

That is what I was trying to point out, Captain Obvious.

dukefluke:

"B- If we did have to pile on, it should have not been on the English side, who in 1914, were pretty fresh after having burned Washington DC."

Mon tete, il'assplode!

You have got me there Mon Duke, I wish there were a way to help out the French and nobody else.

Megram, your post is a mind bender.
Mozetti, If your post were an award I would display it proudly!

Let's see......Germany- Did NOT invade us,
..............England- DID invade us......... LET's HELP ENGLAND!!!!

XmasShoes

Mozetti, If your post were an award I would display it proudly!

Contact my secretary, for a modest fee we can make this happen.

Btw, Where in "DC-area"?

/Baltimoron
//currently in Germany
///the slashies, they're addictive!

Let's see......Germany- Did NOT invade us,
..............England- DID invade us......... LET's HELP ENGLAND!!!!


So, by your reasoning, Britain should've been on Germany's side in WW1 because some Frenchman invaded England in 1066?

http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=7681

Amid all the brouhaha over whether I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, Karl Rove, or any number of Bush administration insiders had a hand in leaking the name of covert CIA agent Valerie Plame, the essential crime at the core of the investigation and its probable starting point often gets lost in the shuffle...They were out to get them [Plame & Wilson] because Wilson drew attention to the provenance of the infamous "16 words" uttered by President Bush in his 2003 state of the union address, in which Bush claimed that Iraq had sought out uranium to make a nuclear bomb in "an African country." Even as the FBI was following the trail of the forgers, the Italians were looking into the matter from their end. A parliamentary committee was charged with investigating, and they issued a heavily redacted report: now, I am told by a former CIA operations officer, the report has aroused some interest on this side of the Atlantic. According to a source in the Italian embassy, Patrick J. "Bulldog" Fitzgerald asked for and "has finally been given a full copy of the Italian parliamentary oversight report on the forged Niger uranium document," the former CIA officer tells me: "Previous versions of the report were redacted and had all the names removed, though it was possible to guess who was involved. This version names Michael Ledeen as the conduit for the report and indicates that former CIA officers Duane Clarridge and Alan Wolf were the principal forgers. All three had business interests with Chalabi."

[snip]

Ledeen has kept the neocon faith and the same friends for all these years. He's still buddies with Ghorbanifar. In December 2001, he had a meeting in Rome with Ghorbanifar in the company of the Pentagon's top Iran specialist, Larry Franklin, and Harold Rhode, assigned to the Office of Net Assessment, a Pentagon think tank. Also at the Rome conclave: a number of Ghorbanifar's Iranian friends, including a former senior official of the Revolutionary Guard. Rounding out the distinguished guest list, we have the Italian delegation, consisting of SISMI head honcho Nicolo Pollari, the head of Italy's military intelligence agency, and Italian Defense Minister Antonio Martino, a neocon favorite. Once again, Ledeen plays the middleman but what kind of a deal was he trying to negotiate? Franklin, we now know, was busy spying for Israel during this period, handing over classified information to AIPAC officials Steve Rosen and Keith Weissman: he has been indicted and has turned state's evidence: the trial is set to begin in January. To this day, Franklin maintains he was just trying to get AIPAC's assistance in moving a more pro-Israel agenda in policymaking circles. Rhode is an ideologue of a similar coloration. Together with Franklin, Rhode helped set up the Defense Department's Office of Special Plans, which stove-piped phony "intelligence" provided by Ahmed Chalabi's Iraqi National Congress and hyped the case for war. Rhode and Franklin worked hand in hand with Chalabi, and, as United Press International intelligence correspondent Richard Sale reports, they had certain interests in common: "According to one former senior U.S. intelligence official who maintained excellent contacts with serving U.S. intelligence officials in the Coalition Provisional Authority in Baghdad, 'Rhode practically lived out of (Ahmed) Chalabi's office.' This same source quoted the intelligence official with the CPA as saying, 'Rhode was observed by CIA operatives as being constantly on his cell phone to Israel,' and that the information that the intelligence officials overheard him passing to Israel was 'mind-boggling,' this source said. It dealt with U.S. plans, military deployments, political projects, discussion of Iraq assets, and a host of other sensitive topics, the former senior U.S. intelligence official said."

[snip]

Fitzgerald's reported interest in the Italian parliamentary report indicates just how his investigation is broadening. The forgeries, the lies fed to us by Ahmed Chalabi and his fellow "heroes in error," the leakage of vital U.S. secrets to the Iranians all point to the existence of the conspiracy the prosecutor is tasked with uncovering. In the course of their campaign of deception, the conspirators not only outed a CIA agent who was working in the vital area of nuclear proliferation, they also passed on classified information to foreign nationals, including the Israelis and the Iranians. They committed forgery and God knows what other crimes.

NineInchNader:

It's... well... what? You don't like the Fire Department? Or is this sarcasm that's sneaking in past my radar? Are you suggesting that we each, as citizens, fight fires on our own with garden hoses and super soakers?

Or are you simply suggesting the privatization of emergency services?

Yes absolutely-
You know the companies that mow all the yards in the HOA neighborhoods now, and they also come around in wintertime and shovel out the streets? (the .gov doesn't do this) and it's a cinch to have them provide fire service first, and soon people would realize that security services would also be far better provided by the private sector, and far far cheaper prices, and with no .gov police: no jack-asses speeding up and down the highways at 90 MPH, carjacking people, stealing their money, and giving them sanctimonious speeches about the dangers of "speeding."

Espertron:

No need to sling insults. I haven't called you any demeaning names. I haven't called your opintions 'dumb.' You are the one being insulting and offensive.

Well that's kind of an insult isn't it?

All I'm saying is that perhaps, just perhaps, the Middle East, will be better off if we stay out of their affairs.

OK,
but if you are subtly recommending an embargo of Middle East fuels, that is economic warfare, and NOT "staying out" of their affairs.

[MIDEAST}- Let them manage their own destiny.

I wish the US federal government would take this policy with the whole world (it's what the founders recommended specifically)

I wish the US gov would take that policy with regard to my own life, and stop plaguing me with Nanny-State dictatorship

///doesn't consider the USA, as your Iranian friends called it, a police state. Not yet, anyways. I don't see any women being forced to cover their hair/faces or denied traveling or voting rights.

Well he took his wife and daughters back with him, and they di'int go kicking and screaming. In fact the ones crying at the airport were the (families) females STAYING HERE.
/and I'm not making this up, though prolly nobody believe a brother

...and with no .gov police: no jack-asses speeding up and down the highways at 90 MPH...

Yeah, I love how the cop cars haul ass everywhere, including running red lights, with no sirens or flashing lights of their own going on. Basically, just little boys daring someone to stop them from playing with their toys.

The ones that really piss me off are the ones on country highways that ride three inches off of someone's bumper. You know for a damn fact that they're just trying to get the person to either speed up (at which time they'll bust them for speeding), or get them nervous so they make a mistake (like not using a turn signal, at which time they'll bust them for not using a turn signal).

Personally, I can't decide which would be worse -- the profit hungry corporations safeguarding us or the profit hungry politicians. Both seem to be farked up.

2wolves: "Who'd have thought that a conservative president would create a welfware nation. On our dime."

Just in case you hadn't noticed, Bush's intention seems to be to deliberately bankrupt the United States government. A very good way to do this would be to embroil America in an unwinnable perpetual war in the Middle East so that all discretionary spending is directed there rather than here for literally decades to come.

This is just a theory, but it helps explain the otherwise inexplicable decision to invade Iraq. On every level it was a self-evidently bad idea, yet the Administration went to extraordinary lengths to make it happen. Why would they jump through so many complex hoops to do something so stupid?

Iraq will fail. If a stable gov't does arise, it will be like the taliban. But likely the country will remain in civil war for the forseeable future. People supporting this war are simply stupid. Anyone who understood the social dynamics of the region was telling us in 2003 that even if Saddam were removed, a stable nation would not result for decades.

But hey, I guess it's job security for the military.

And the way the US economy is going, maybe we can shift all those auto-workers into the army and take over another country and fark it all up too.

It's really just a change in title rather than a full blown promotion.

Didn't even get any stock options out of this move. :(

2wolves:

Who'd have thought that a conservative president would create a welfware nation. On our dime.

We don't have a conservative president, haven't since Harding. What we have is an International Socialist (Managerial Elitist) in the white house. Every politician in US is an International Socialist cept for ONE.

Btw, Where in "DC-area"?

Howard County MD presently moving soon, got family in Balmer, have lived in the Fatherland myself. Have enjoyed the freedom they enjoy on their highways (freedom no American can ever know in his "own" country)

2005-10-19 09:27:37 AM binnster [TotalFark]

So, by your reasoning, Britain should've been on Germany's side in WW1 because some Frenchman invaded England in 1066?

my reasoning sees a difference between "9" hundred years, and "one" hundred years.

900 years = pretty damn long time ago
100 years ago = my Grandpa in his hay (or maybe his parents, but not that long ago) AND I don't want to betray his friends. OOPS- ALREADY DID THAT. Serbia

submitter
Everyone is too busy with their sticks rears to remember to congratulate you on your excellent headline.

Two cents guys, not your 2 hours of the morning.

CanSomeonePleaseKilltheChristmasShoes - "my reasoning sees a difference between "9" hundred years, and "one" hundred years."

Using that reasoning, there are no Americans apart from the Indians.

It's a really farking stupid argument.

NineInchNader:

Personally, I can't decide which would be worse -- the profit hungry corporations safeguarding us or the profit hungry politicians. Both seem to be farked up.

"Profit hungry corporation?"

Just speaking for myself, nobody at Wallmart ever sent me a letter threatening me to show up at their store or office, to come and have my money stolen, and if I don't come they will personally kidnap me through force of arms and throw me in a cell for - ever? years?

Wallmart never carjacked me and stole my money and gave me a sanctimonious speech about "speeding", all Wallmart does is try to get stuff to sell REALLY CHEAP, and send me invitations (adds) to please come to their store (voluntarily) and buy the stuff (only if I want to)

Compare that to the government who just steals your money outright (if you refuse the theft they simply kill you Gordon Khall)
and I'll take the "Money hungry corporations" any day.

canyoneer:

Bush's intention seems to be to deliberately bankrupt the United States government.

This is just a theory, but it helps explain the otherwise inexplicable decision to invade Iraq.

The decision to invade Iraq is very explicabable: A unified Iraq under Saddam was a threat to Israel. Israel had their puppet (USA) step on Iraq and now it's a shambles of a state in civil war and no threat to anybody.

The real mission was accomplished.

Billions and trillions of $$$ shovelled at Cheneys friends' war companies was just icing on the cake.

EnormousJuan: Iraq will fail.

Irag was invaded so it would fail. What happened was a great success for Israel (who called the shots) and the money men, who always win anyway.
/Halliburrton. Cheney, war companies, merchants of death, etc

dukefluke: (what I said):It's a really farking stupid argument.

As opposed to what you said which was frigging brilliant.

CanSomeonePleaseKilltheChristmasShoes

my reasoning sees a difference between "9" hundred years, and "one" hundred years.


Oh, I see, in that case, you must be right! Actually, you're not right, you're wrong and probably completely insane!

CanSomeonePleaseKilltheChristmasShoes

You know the companies that mow all the yards in the HOA neighborhoods now

When it comes to dealing with an HOA, I'll take the worst government official or cop over those guy, thank you very much!

A lot of the HOA's are as bad enough as it is, I can't imagine them with guns or any actual authority.

Besides, when you get right down to it, an HOA is just an inferior form of government. If you got rid of all the town, county and borough governments, before you know it the HOAs would be merging with each other in the name of efficiency, expanding their territory and soon you'd have something indistinguishable from local government. Except you might not be able to vote and the courts would always rule against the individual homeowner.

Just speaking for myself, nobody at Wallmart ever sent me a letter threatening me to show up at their store or office, to come and have my money stolen, and if I don't come they will personally kidnap me through force of arms and throw me in a cell for - ever? years?

Wallmart never carjacked me and stole my money and gave me a sanctimonious speech about "speeding", all Wallmart does is try to get stuff to sell REALLY CHEAP, and send me invitations (adds) to please come to their store (voluntarily) and buy the stuff (only if I want to)

Compare that to the government who just steals your money outright (if you refuse the theft they simply kill you Gordon Khall)
and I'll take the "Money hungry corporations" any day.

Meh, Wal*Mart has benefited from the deaths of their employees, as we've seen in the past through the illegal Life Insurance policies some of the branches have taken out.

We've also seen West Coast energy companies drive up profits by creating artificial blackouts, quite literally laughing at the hazards this creates as well as the inconveniences.

Personally, I've only been robbed by the cops a couple of times in the past. I'm robbed by coporations on almost a daily basis it sometimes seems.

I suspect the billions in disappearing funds probably doesn't help either.

CanSomeonePleaseKilltheChristmasShoes -
"As opposed to what you said which was frigging brilliant."

As I recall, about the only thing I contributed to the conversation prior to your little brainfart was the word "Wheeee!".

So yes, in comparison, you're absolutely correct.

CanSomeonePleaseKilltheChristmasShoes: So, you think Bush would deliberately bankrupt the USA on orders from Israel? Or do you think he just wanted to kill two birds (three birds?) with one stone?

I don't buy the argument that Iraq was a threat to Israel, the USA, or anyone else, for that matter. Look at the state of their military and non-existant "WMD" programs. There was no there there. Saddam couldn't control Anbar Province or the Qadisiyah Expressway (Baghdad Airport Road) or the bandits of Amarah. Saddam's government didn't even control three provinces in Kurdistan since 1991. He and his (non) unified Iraq were no threat to anyone.

This was and is about petroleum, Shoes. Saddam's crime was to be sitting atop 15% of the planet's oil, and light sweet crude, at that. The good stuff. If other "benefits" were to be had, they were secondary to getting all that Arabian Go-Go Juice.