When I joined my grad school in 99 (Major: Optics, i.e. laser stuff and the like), we had 80% (yes, that's 80%) of non-US born citizens from all over the World, every year we would have 20 foreigners coming in for 5 US citizens.

When I graduated in 04 with my PhD the number was down to 60% and we had 5 foreigners coming in for 20 US citizens. Why? Not because US students got brighter, but because following 9/11 a huge chunk of the NSF (National Science Foundation) money went to the Army/Navy/Air Force programs, hence our faculties needed students allowed to work on "classified" research. Result: the school had to lower the qualifying exam requirement because the success rate dropped from a pretty good 95% to a laughable sub-50%... The level in Math & Physics of some freshly entered American students was a joke. American students don't care much about science, most want to make money faster and don't want to spend all that time getting a PhD, it's a fact.

For those who think the H1B visa is the reason of their unemployment get your facts straight, this administration has dropped a couple of years ago the number of admissions by 66% (2/3)!!! My advice: get better in school otherwise stop whining about others taking your jobs because they are brighter than you.

cfreak

The population of China is NOT 3.5 billion!
where the hell did you get that?
engineering grads:
US=70,000
India=300,000
China=600,000

engineering grads as percentage of population
America .023%
India .027%
China .046%



Population
America 300 million
India 1.1 billion
China 1.3 billion

One basic flaw of this degree disparity contention that everyone who has commented on this subject thus far has missed entirely is the fact that an Indian Bachelors degree only takes three years to acquire. I dont know about China, but I do know this for a fact with regard to India.

I cant help but wonder how many more degreed professionals the US would be turning out if it only took three years to get a bachelors degree.

whats so great about engineers?

Just maybe it's quality over quantity?

//duh.

UTKEngineer

"Since when does 50+K cound as low pay? And there are plenty of job opportunities out there for competent engineers."

No kidding, we have head hunters calling our office at least once a week trying to pick up our employees. Top engineers

"So, I call bs on "Dubya's anti-science stance" unless you want to provide a more specific example."

Ehh, that's just trolling.

We're still operating (in this thread) under the assumption that we desperately need science and engineering students. Why? Is everyone that can do math and physics entitled to a sweet income? Engineering, far as I can tell, is a field that has needed an economic slap in the face/adjustment for years.


True entrepreneurial engineers and scientists will come up with enough good ideas to keep themselves rich and employed. The ones who just want $60-80K/year to sit in a cubicle and play around on a computer are going to miss out.

The educational state of the US isn't solely the fault of poor teachers. There are really, really good teachers out there, but part of the problem is parents who don't give a flying fark about their children's discipline or school performance. Perfect example is the kids in my wife's class. One of them was kicked off the cheerleading team for being convicted of a DUI/DWI, and the parents lobbied to get her reinstated. The administration relented, and now this kid has been shown that all that matters is having money and power, and the little people will bow down before you. In the higher socioeconomic echelons, we're raising a cult of Paris Hilton, and there's not stopping it.

This is just one of the huge issues bubbling just under the surface of the veneer of prosperity in this country, and when the oil hits the anus (man, I love that phrase, it's so catchy), and the prosperity/bread & circus goes away suddenly (3-5 year timespan), they're all going to erupt simultaneously in a vicious, self-reinforcing, multiplicative way. We're heading for a class war in the next decade that should make the French Revolution look weak. I fear greatly for what comes after, when we've "thrown off the shackles of oppression," or whatever jingoistic crap the opportunistic bastards who sieze power are going to spew.

For some factual information on this subject, check out the Department of Labor's Bureau of Labor Statistics website.

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm

At this point I would like to apologize for introducing facts into this argument of opinions.

UTKEngineer

"Since when does 50+K sound as low pay? And there are plenty of job opportunities out there for competent engineers."

No kidding, we have head hunters calling our office at least once a week trying to pick up our employees. Top engineers

"So, I call bs on "Dubya's anti-science stance" unless you want to provide a more specific example."


I got news for ya. 50K for an engineer is not high pay. Prior to the engineering crash in this country, engineers routinely earned 80K or more. My starting pay back in 1985 as an BSEE was 60K (yes, that's 20 years ago).

As for Dumbya's anti-science stance, it's well documented. Do your own research. Pretty much every professional scientific organization, both here in the US and abroad, have complained about Dumbya's manipulation of basic scientific research to force it to comply to his political policies.

laxidasical: The majority of kids that are in my classroom have a severe mitochondrial defeciency and cannot think. They have a Pentium I brain in a Pentium 4 world and the hourglass is ALWAYS showing.

Oh man that is classic. I'm putting this in my quote book!

/It's sad, but true.

HMMF-4

"Indian Bachelors degree only takes three years to acquire. I dont know about China, but I do know this for a fact with regard to India."

Thats probably a factor, but just for reference IIT (Indian Institute of Technology) is actually a very tough engineering/technical school in India comparable to the top schools in the US. It was set up by the government to encourage engineering and technology development in India. But, what I find funny is, they are complaining of a brain drain to the US because their students can get good job here in the states that pay multiples times more then anything offered in India. Indian companies just generally cant compete with that.

Another thing is India and China are just beginning to organize Professional Certificate for engineers and ASME/ASCE etc type associations and technical standards that countries like the US and Europe have at for decades. Besides, it takes at least ~4 to 5 years of professional experience in the US to become a professional engineer in the states

Other factors that play into this: India/China has societal problems like the US, but there seems to be monumental scale differences between the countries. Difference between the haves and have not is huge in India and China compared to the US. Indias caste systems and China communism and curtail on personal/political freedoms also come to mind. (yeah, yeah, yeah, US is doing that also, thank you peanut gallery)

I cant help but wonder how many more degreed professionals the US would be turning out if it only took three years to get a bachelors degree.

I dont really think that would matter. I would guess a majority of those with engineering degrees dont actually go into in engineering, just as Im guessing most Chinese or Indian graduated dont either.

/Back to my smart ass comments only

Here in W's America, we don't need science, we got Jesus! We're pumping out more and more Bible-thumpin manual laborers every day, while the countries who actually value science produce the educated people that our Jesus-lovers will work for. Just a matter of time until we're a superpower no longer. Praise the Lord!

J_Z

Thats probably a factor, but just for reference IIT (Indian Institute of Technology) is actually a very tough engineering/technical school in India comparable to the top schools in the US. It was set up by the government to encourage engineering and technology development in India.

Not really. There are NO schools in India that are the equivalent of anything in the US. Please do not believe me. Check with any reputable educational equivalency evaluation organization. I deal with these companies all the time for this exact reason (immigration) and an Indian degree is only worth 3 years of US schooling. In order to qualify for H1B visa to come to the US, a candidate is required to have their Indian bachelors degree AND a minimum of 3 years of verifiable work experience to compensate for the missing year of school (3 years of experience equals one year of school). The degree by itself is not sufficient and is not the equivalent of a US bachelors degree.

Please dont believe me and look this up for yourself.

As competition increases, their education may be improving, but it still isnt recognized in the US.

I believe the brain drain that you speak of is due to the missing amino acids in their diets. This comes from not ingesting animal proteins.

Meat is good.

All I can say is the following:

Friends don't let friends become engineers.

/was going to become one
//glad I didn't

HMMF-4: One basic flaw of this degree disparity contention that everyone who has commented on this subject thus far has missed entirely is the fact that an Indian Bachelors degree only takes three years to acquire. I dont know about China, but I do know this for a fact with regard to India.


It takes the same time in Europe (3 years).

Also, a typical science PhD in Europe takes 3 years (as opposed to 5 in the US).

HMMF-4: As competition increases, their education may be improving, but it still isnt recognized in the US.

Yes it is. My university has tons in Indian postdocs, very talented, bringing their own money from international fellowships (H.F., LSRF, and so on) and their PhDs (acquired in India) are definitely recognized and honored.

I believe the brain drain that you speak of is due to the missing amino acids in their diets. This comes from not ingesting animal proteins.

Hahaha!


methinks you are rather misinformed.

Indian engineers trained in India.... Bhopal anyone?

The problem is too much emphasis on Liberal Arts. Also, math and science need to be promoted towards females more.

Me? I'm a software engineer at MTU, where the ratio 75% male, 25% female(like 80% are biology majors though....) and also has 300 graduate students from China/India.

Thanks for the back up on that shipud.

To anyone who doubted me...........

SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

told ya so! told ya so! told ya so!

Na na na na na nah!!!!

Oops. Is my maturity level showing?

lals33: Friends don't let friends become engineers.



Hey now,, I resemble that remark:P
I am only a little nuts.

shipud

Postdocs are not bachelors - the minimum requirement I spoke of. I did not say anything about exceeding requirements with higher education, beyond the minimum four year degree.

so there.

and yes, amino acids in animal protein is what makes brains evolve into higher intelligence. this is why predators always evolve to be smarter than the grazers.

Backing you up on what? My point was that while a US student needs 4 years for a science BSc and 8-10 years to reach a science PhD, in Europe it is done in 3 and 6 years respectively. It's the quality of education that matters, and I think that in the US it takes sol long because universities have to make up for the deficiency of science education in High School.

Also, at least for PhD's acquired in India (for quite a few institutes) they are honored by US universities (fro employent purposes) BCIS (for visa purposes) and international grant agencies (for funcding purposes).

DrySocket:For example, you would prefer to be treated by a doctor trained in america than one trained in India or China, trust me.

I for one would prefer to be treated by a doctor trained in India. Here the doctors only think about money and giev you the latest concoctions that cost $300 for a farking cold (happened to me .. well thats what the insurance was billed) and how to avoid a lawsuit. Doctors in India will often treat a patient free of charge. It is not all about money. Here in the U.S. you have pretty lousy GPs .. everyone wants to be a specialized coz thats where the money is.

HMMF-4
Just asked the Indian who works in my building. Apparently, the non-engineering bachelor's degrees in India are 3 years. Engineering degrees are 4 years and after the first year you have to still qualify for the field you want (Elec, CS, Mech, etc.) or switch universities.

HMMF-4: and yes, amino acids in animal protein is what makes brains evolve into higher intelligence. this is why predators always evolve to be smarter than the grazers.


Not going into the bizzareness and total inability to verify this statement, um, you DO realize that there are a couple of hundred million Hindus who eat meat? Just not beef. I have never actually met a vegeterian Hindu (althouh I know there is a high proportion), Indian, only beef abstainers.

Ramachandran (from the Ramachandran plot) was vegetarian, BTW.

shipud

Check with any reputable educational equivalency evaluation organization. I deal with these companies all the time for immigration and an Indian degree is only worth 3 years of US college level schooling. In order to qualify for H1B visa to come to the US, a candidate is required to have their Indian bachelors degree AND a minimum of 3 years of verifiable work experience to compensate for the missing year of school (3 years of experience equals one year of school). The degree by itself is not sufficient and is not the equivalent of a US bachelors degree.

This isnt just time to compensate for high school level knowledge. The educational equivalency evaluation companies evaluate the level of knowledge and Indian bachelor degrees ARE NEVER the equivalent of a US bachelor degree. I see this issue constantly.

But I guess you would know more than all those doctorate degree people who do this for a living.

anIndian: For example, you would prefer to be treated by a doctor trained in america than one trained in India or China, trust me.


Well, many Americans ARE flying to India for treatment, I guess that answers your question.

http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=2016

Shipud

India for treatment?

And some go to Mexico for inexpensive plastic surgery.

An apendectomy in Russia only costs about $100. I don't think I'd go for that deal either.

Stupid is as stupid does.

I quit grad school to get a real job. Why be some professors slave for 7 years of your life.. from living on loans and less than poverty line income.. no insurnace benefits or retirement...while working 80 hours a week.. to graduate and make 60 grand a year as a professor?

The incentives are just not there.

The US graduate program is basically dead right now. I won't go back until they pay their RA's and TA's decent wages, give real stipends for the doctoral programs, and generally treat the grad students with some measure of respect.

As I see it right now, the only people in the graduate field are those that 1. are almost finished, 2. lack any and all social skills in order to obtain real employment, 3. are unable to find a job because the market is tight.

HMMF-4: Stupid is as stupid does.


More like necessity. Since medical care in the US is pretty mediocre or inaccessible (unless you are really rich: the US is pretty much lagging in all popoulace health and healthcare indices, see WHO reports).

The Indian hospitals which service medical tourists are top of the line, designedto cater to rich (by Indian standards) foreigners, and are actually inaccessible to most Indians. They are still cheaper than, and probably as good as, what you can get in the US.

Who gives a shiat, as long as the proles consume and fatten the bourgois by buying their crap???

They hand out Engineering and Comp Sci degrees in India as if they were tic-tacs.

And finally upper managers here in the tech sector (cant name which, sorry.) are getting wise to it.

They aren't hiring engineers from that region until the applicant has completed a degree at an accredited western university.

The per capita thing needs to be reevaluated. 50% of all engineers graduating from US universities are foreign born. In addition to that, 25% of ALL engineers working in the US are foreign-born. As for the supposed lack of jobs for "American" engineers, that's a myth. In high tech fields, there is a severe shortage of applicants, not jobs. That is why companies have to hire so many engineeers from overseas.

Shipud

You and I must live in different countries. Im not rich and my health insurance is through my wifes employer. We have enjoyed excellent health care since she began her employment there. We have had several health issues resolved in an efficient and caring manner, paid for by her insurance provider. If you now have crappy health insurance or none at all, then look for a job/career that can provide you with some. Its really that simple.

The only thing the WHO is an authority on is finding reasons to crap on the US. Yeah, whatever (said while making stroking motion). If you really believe any of the BS that is festering in the UN septic tank, than you arent worth conversing with. Quit parroting the liberal BULLSHIAT and get a job.

What youre really complaining about is that health care isnt free. Boo hoo. Move to France. Everything over there is free if you dont work. If youre going to parrot the UN crap than obviously thats what youre really looking for.

The problem is.....................

The math classes, at least at my university are all taught by foriegn people, who you can't even farking understand through their thick accents. Combine that with the fact that there are a lot of complicated theorums, proofs, and equations in math which have "hard to pronounce" words associated with them and you have the reason why University Caluculus is F***ing impossible.

Just saying

BTW
HMMF-4 FTW

Our science graduation rates have little to do with "anti-science" freaks. Dr. Leon Lederman, director emeritus at Fermi Lab, says the lackluster rate of science grads in the US is due to indifference of the subject at the remediate level. K-8 teachers don't want to teach math and science. They don't know how to teach math and science. Schools look at gifted students as abherrents and put them on ritalin and prozac.

India and China take their gifted students and put them on a hacker education path.

The bomb is at B: The math classes, at least at my university are all taught by foriegn people, who you can't even farking understand through their thick accents. Combine that with the fact that there are a lot of complicated theorums, proofs, and equations in math which have "hard to pronounce" words associated with them and you have the reason why University Caluculus is F***ing impossible.

My high school didn't offer an advanced level of Calculus. So I studied out of the books. Then I came to the U.S. and took more Calculus taught by Russian TAs and professors (and of course, by Americans). Yeah, they had terrible accents, but then I always had a book to study with.

I aced them all (actually I tested out two of four calc).

So, what is your problem?

/Generally, the problem lies with poor reading ability in students. Yes, I'm blaming on high school English teachers now.

Just to let you fellows know a bit of knowledge. When you complain about how the fundamentalist right seems to not fund public education sufficiently...THIS IS INTENTIONAL. They, the fundamentalist right, absolutely hate public education. They feel it takes the control out of their hands, so by now they just become elected representatives and work to defund the system along with infiltrating the school boards and dictating guidelines. So complain all you want that public schools are not funded enough. Yes, funding schools based on property taxes creates an inherently flawed system. Yes, etc etc etc. They want the system to fail. They want to be able to abolish the entire notion of public schooling and return to privately run schools. Of course these same people usually have the belief that they are rich/etc because they are righteous so God is rewarding them (and this makes for an interesting worldview on its own).

droptone

Stop it! Youre killing me.

The reason why those who fund education are so unwilling to spend more is the failure of public schools to provide a decent education no matter how much money they spend.

I forget the exact numbers, but in my county the cost per student is around 3 times higher than private school, with less than half the educational quality. Money is not the problem. Stupid teachers and a lack of properly managing money they have are the central issues. When I was in college I recall those who would profess with a vapid glazed look in their eye that they wanted to teach children. I would laugh and wonder why. It was apparent that being around a bunch of first graders was the only way they were going to feel like they had any semblance of intelligence.

When public schools start producing a decent product with all the money they have to spend, maybe those of us who pay taxes wont mind the expense.

They have plenty of money. What they need are decent teachers and someone to properly manage the money they have.

As much as I would like to blame the fundies...I actually feel itz our societies fault. We make heroes out of sports stars and ditzy blondes who sing and dance. Engineers, scientist and such are ridiculed for being nerds. Why study for years for an intellectual job that is not sexy, when you can learn how to shoot a basketball, drop out of high school and make millions.

Just about every time Al Greenspan has testified to the congress critters he works in the abysmal education stats as being the most serious of the long term threats to the economy. He has focused on the fact that American students at the end of the 4th grade test out with the best in the world, but by graduation from high school those same students are at the bottom of the global barrel.

Both my parents are teachers in NJ. My dad is a teacher in Irvington/Newark ...which many of you might know to be a total shiathole. Anyway, the teachers want to teach your basic classes yet there is always some moron that wants everyone to learn "diversity" and " self esteem" . And on top of that, parents could not care less what thier kids do. It really has nothing to do with the teachers, its the kids that come in and know that if they fail, they can blame it on the teacher. Its funny, becuase the govt. spends much more money on the urban school districts yet nothing ever comes out of them.

It's pretty simple.
Americans are stupid. It's okay, it won't kill you to admit it. Why are Americans stupid? Let's start with the obvious.

Television.

Ever since the boob tube moved into every American household the slackjawed masses have been glued to it. They care more about what happens on the idiot box than what happens in their own life. Back when it was new, it was pretty harmless. An interesting if slightly vapid diversion at best. Shows like I Love Lucy and Ed Sullivan were pretty banal. Now with such utter tripe as Survivor, MTV and American Idol clogging the airwaves it's almost as if the TV networks are deliberately trying to keep us stupid so we'll stay tuned in.

TV is part of it. The rest lies on parental responsibility and that thing the US calls a public education system. It has been designed not to educate and inform students, but mostly to keep them out of trouble until they're old enough to become another drone for the corporate machine, where they will work for 30-40 years, retire with a meager pension and grow old in a managed-care facility. American businesses don't want innovation and never have. They find something that works, stay with it until it no longer works, then attempt to change the laws to MAKE it work (see RIAA, MPAA for examples). Now with the No Moron Left Behind, it's almost illegal to fail a student who's not smart enough to pass on his own. You know what? LET HIM FAIL. If we continue lowering the bar these kids are just going to get dumber and dumber. Just look at grade inflation. A 1200 on your SATs now is worth much less than a 1200 on the SATs was even 10 years ago. Hell when I took the SATs you weren't allowed ANYTHING except a No. 2 pencil and some scratch paper. I hear now they allow graphing calculators? WHY?!

I know full grown adults who can't add two numbers together in their heads. Something like 12,485,392+ 843,290 I could understand having to work out on paper, but 12+9? If you need to whip out a calculator to tell me that's 21, then you sir need to GO BACK TO SCHOOL.

The really sad part is that nobody cares. As long as little Timmy pretends to have learned something, and as long as his harried, underpaid and mostly careless teachers pretend to teach him, there are no complaints.

jwrebholz

Pension? Who gets a pension anymore?

Where do you work and are they hiring?

jwrebholz

BTW, I've said the same about a million times. I've been TV free since 1988.

2005-10-13 01:46:29 PM HMMF-4
Stop it! Youre killing me.

The reason why those who fund education are so unwilling to spend more is the failure of public schools to provide a decent education no matter how much money they spend.

I forget the exact numbers, but in my county the cost per student is around 3 times higher than private school, with less than half the educational quality. Money is not the problem. Stupid teachers and a lack of properly managing money they have are the central issues. When I was in college I recall those who would profess with a vapid glazed look in their eye that they wanted to teach children. I would laugh and wonder why. It was apparent that being around a bunch of first graders was the only way they were going to feel like they had any semblance of intelligence.

When public schools start producing a decent product with all the money they have to spend, maybe those of us who pay taxes wont mind the expense.

They have plenty of money. What they need are decent teachers and someone to properly manage the money they have.

If you aren't a member of the 'fundamentalist right' then my post doesn't apply to you. There is nothing inside it saying you cannot critique the efficiency of the public school system without being a member of the 'fundamentalist right'. The reason why this is important is because those people who want entirely privatized institutions for religious reasons would still want them if the efficiency argument did not hold.

I usually try to hold back personal attacks, because they are pretty pointless but It was apparent that being around a bunch of first graders was the only way they were going to feel like they had any semblance of intelligence. ... Wow, just wow. You've got to be kidding me. What, the, fark? So people who want to teach those younger than them are doing so because they want to feel better about theirselves? Well goddamn, I guess the reason why I want to be a professor of philosophy has more to do with an inferiority complex than my curiosity of the problems of philosophy and desire to express the interesting aspects of philosophy to others. Thanks for the clarification.

Sure there may be some of those sorts of people teaching the young, but every single one of them?

Thanks for the link to http://www.freedomhouse.org/!

Going to spend some time perusing it.

Please re-read what I previously wrote. I said the ones (wannabe teachers) that I met. Not all of them, dumbshiat. Do you believe its possible that I met all of them? Ive seen dipsticks like you formulate this same argument before. Its too easy to accuse someone of generalizing when it isnt true. Try again.

As I alluded before, your comments on the fundamentalist right were ridiculous, unfounded and unsubstantiated. BTW, Im an atheist and no, Im not defending them (fundamentalist right).

Its good that you are working on becoming a philosophy professor. You are obviously not qualified to do anything productive.

OK dude?

I'm an astronomy professor in the U.S., and I bring in a few hundred thousands of dollars in grants per year. I currently employ two post-docs named Zhaohui and Rajib. One is a U.S. citizen, and the other is getting his green card. You do the math.

mbrother

Astronomy? Now there's a worthy profession.

I'm an Aquarius. What's your sign?

Sorry, just kidding.