FARK.com: (1710483) Anti-science agenda taking its toll: India graduates 5 times as many engineers as the US; China 10 times as many

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		Anti-science agenda taking its toll: India graduates 5 times as many engineers as the US; China 10 times as many (news.yahoo.com)		289
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8229 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Oct 2005 at 2:26 AM | Favorite | share:

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goksu		2005-10-13 01:14:11 AM

Apparently math skills quite lacking by submitter.
US=70,000
India=300,000
China=600,000

300/70~4.25
600/70~8.5

Not disagreeing that its farked up, just get the facts straight.

hitchking		2005-10-13 01:20:00 AM

This is actually a fairly old phenomena.

The US has been getting their asses kicked up and down the map when it comes to science education for decades.

DblDad		2005-10-13 01:22:56 AM

Science, schmience. Who needs critical thinking when we can just say, "Jeebus did it!" ?

/Flame on!

etoof		2005-10-13 01:23:02 AM

Maybe the fact that they outnumber us by a respective 4x and 6x?

tarrant84		2005-10-13 01:23:47 AM

Haha, in othe rnews, you do NOT want to hire Indian engineers. Trust me. They suck and none of them have jobs.

etoof		2005-10-13 01:24:09 AM

Plus, in india, it's a whole lot harder to rely on a job flipping burgers. You have to be educated there to make money.

slidillon		2005-10-13 01:24:48 AM

etoof: Maybe the fact that they outnumber us by a respective 4x and 6x?

Knucklehead, do the math....it's still 4.25 and 8.5 as many as us.

jghanc		2005-10-13 01:25:50 AM

Apparently, reading skills quite lacking by goksu:

From the article, India graduated 350,000. 350/70 = 5.

slidillon		2005-10-13 01:26:26 AM

etoof: Plus, in india, it's a whole lot harder to rely on a job flipping burgers

Yeah, the whole they don't eat cows thing makes that kind of hard.

etoof		2005-10-13 01:26:40 AM

slidillon

Eat me asshat. Numbers off the top of my head from Tim.

/don't really need to eat me

LazyMF		2005-10-13 01:28:01 AM

"All your acids and bases are belonging to us, my friend"

slidillon		2005-10-13 01:28:17 AM

etoof: Eat me asshat

Careful what you wish for.........

That will teach you to listen to Tim.

Mordant		2005-10-13 01:28:24 AM

slidillon: Knucklehead, do the math....it's still 4.25 and 8.5 as many as us.

Yes, and then the best of the best move here to make a living. As long as we are cranking out burger flippers to satisfy them we'll be just fine. Americans aren't just home grown.

dodald		2005-10-13 01:29:32 AM

Does anyone know if there is a difference in the threshold for being call an engineer in those countries?

e.g. Would an auto-mechanic in China be considered an engineer? vs. Would they be an engineer in the US?

/Those numbers scare me

Sussman		2005-10-13 01:30:41 AM

Americans hate science. Indians and Chinese hate God.

It's true, cuz I read it on Fark!

goksu		2005-10-13 01:30:47 AM

jghanc
Apparently, reading skills quite lacking by goksu

Damn, it's bedtime for me.
But some of the plans for getting more graduates sound like a good start. They need to get children interested in high tech jobs early, instead of them all dreaming about being the next football/basketball/movie star.

The_Flatline		2005-10-13 01:30:53 AM

Mordant:

Yes, and then the best of the best move here to make a living. As long as we are cranking out burger flippers to satisfy them we'll be just fine. Americans aren't just home grown.

Besides, the administration still things the jury is out on all that "engineering" tripe...

goksu		2005-10-13 01:31:51 AM

dodald
Does anyone know if there is a difference in the threshold for being call an engineer in those countries?
As strict as, probably more strict than american standards.

hitchking		2005-10-13 01:32:12 AM

Mordant: Yes, and then the best of the best move here to make a living.

Not for long. Those countries are owning everybody's asses in economic growth.

helioquake		2005-10-13 01:32:13 AM

I taught in college before and I'd say this: K-12 education in this country is a crying shame. On the other day, my secretary yelled at me for not providing a foreign exchange rate, which I actually did in my travel expense report. It said "$1 = 100 yen". Then she looked at me and yelled again, "that's not what I can use! I need the exchange rate in 1 yen = x dollar!"

I told her to invert the rate. She blinked. She didn't get it.

She's not alone out there. I remember teaching a college student how to convert from mile to kilometer. That's not the worst. Sometimes I had to teach them how to add...

goksu		2005-10-13 01:33:59 AM

The_Flatline
Besides, the administration still things the jury is out on all that "engineering" tripe...

And the Lord then giveth Henry Ford 2 tablets containing the blueprints for an intellegently designed automobile.
/speaking of, has anyone seen bevets lately

etoof		2005-10-13 01:34:57 AM

slidillon

Go back to the Boobies links, noob.

helioquake		2005-10-13 01:36:16 AM

dodald: Does anyone know if there is a difference in the threshold for being call an engineer in those countries?

Most of them (I've met) are just as good in terms of technical skills. A handful few are exceptionally good (rare, though). But all of them have the same problem -- they are just too proud to take orders from others. This in turn leads to a problem in team works.

But my experiece with Indians is very limited. Someone can correct my view on this.

TommyymmoT		2005-10-13 01:36:28 AM

WE'RE NUMBER ONE!
WE'RE NUMBER ONE!
WE'RE NUMBER ONE!

At...absolutely....nothing.
Not in ANY area.

Oh wait, we have more of our populace, per capita, in prison, than any other country in the world.

WE'RE NUMBER ONE!
WE'RE NUMBER ONE!
WE'RE NUMBER ONE!

Maybe it's time we stopped screaming it, and started being it.

Handsome Jack Manitoba		2005-10-13 01:37:26 AM

*sigh*

slidillon		2005-10-13 01:39:41 AM

etoof:

slidillon Account created: 2003-11-26

Eat it Geek boy!! I left your soldering irons on.....ha Ha hA

Mordant		2005-10-13 01:40:37 AM

hitchking: Not for long. Those countries are owning everybody's asses in economic growth.

I don't have kids, so the folks that hate science in America are screwing a longer term generation than I'll be around to see.

etoof		2005-10-13 01:40:56 AM

slidillon

You BASTICHE!

Those numbers are fake.

soze		2005-10-13 01:41:34 AM

Well, it would certainly help if engineers in the US had jobs that would hire them. I'm in Albany (went to RPI, actually), and the situation is pretty grim out here.

acanuck		2005-10-13 01:43:07 AM

Did I miss it or did none of you knuckleheads notice that per capita it's pretty well a dead heat (using submitter's calculator)

salsashark1		2005-10-13 01:43:33 AM

atheists are stupid.

slidillon		2005-10-13 01:45:09 AM

etoof: Those numbers are fake.

Look at the profile oh tall, gangly one....the profile does not lie.

etoof		2005-10-13 01:47:02 AM

atheists are ~~stupid~~ not gullible.

fixed it for you

RTLee		2005-10-13 01:47:44 AM

dodald Would an auto-mechanic in China be considered an engineer? vs. Would they be an engineer in the US?

There's other dynamics at work other than qualifications. I lived in Shanghai, China a couple of years ago working on a TV show. We had a local girl working for us as a tape-op (videotape operator), which is essentially an entry-level clerical job cataloging and duplicating videotapes. This is the kind of thing a recent college graduate might do for their first job out of school.

What did she do before working for us? She was a doctor, an actual MD working in a hospital. And why was she working for the round-eyes? Because we paid her to log tapes FOUR TIMES what the Chinese government paid her to be a doctor.

So, as long as American companies keep paying top salaries and the United States still provides the best standard of living in the world, we'll still be able to pull in the top talent, no matter where they originate from.

etoof		2005-10-13 01:48:01 AM

slidillon

Nope, you're making those up

Crosshair		2005-10-13 01:48:19 AM

acanuck [TotalFark]

Did I miss it or did none of you knuckleheads notice that per capita it's pretty well a dead heat (using submitter's calculator)

Yea, are we the only two that can see this??

etoof		2005-10-13 01:51:17 AM

slidillon

I think we should stop. People are gonna think we're dating or something.....

TommyymmoT		2005-10-13 01:52:23 AM

soze
Well, it would certainly help if engineers in the US had jobs that would hire them. I'm in Albany (went to RPI, actually), and the situation is pretty grim out here.

I'm in Albany (Niskayuna) too.

But Wait!
Isn't Albany "Tech Valley"?
(Yock Yock Yock)

Where politicians give free research labs away?
And when something is actually invented, the manufacturing of it is outsourced to another country?

That "Tech Valley" bullsh*t makes me laugh my ass off.

Does anyone really think that all the good engineers are going to move here to endure a climate that is cruel at best, and has the economic outlook, and crime rate, of the Black Hole Of Calcutta?

Abagadro		2005-10-13 01:53:30 AM

Best to look at it per capita:

China: 600k per year, pop 1.3B = 1 engineer per year for every 2166 people in the population.

India: 450k per year, pop. 1B = 1 engineer per year for every 2856 people in the population.

United States: 70 k per year, pop. 296M = 1 engineer per year for every 4228 people in the population.

So controlling for population, it is more accurate to say that they churning out engingeers at twice the rate in China and 1.5 the rate in India than in the US.

EnoMan		2005-10-13 01:53:46 AM

soze: Well, it would certainly help if engineers in the US had jobs that would hire them.

Ramen. And if the U.S. Government would stop sabotaging American engineers via the H1B Visa process. My professional organization is saying that the Senate is planning to increase the number available by 60,000 a year for the next 5 years, at least.

jghanc		2005-10-13 01:55:34 AM

dodald:
For the engineering fields I'm familiar with (i.e. chemical and polymer), the requirements and knowledge of Indian and Chinese immigrants are as good, or better, than most of the equivalent "engineers" I've interviewed or worked with in the past 10 or 15 years. In fact, if you look at the literature submissions over the past 20 years, at least in polymer science and many chemical areas, there's been a distinct shift toward the east in research and published data. There's also been a distinct shift in the skills and intelligence of American engineering students since the late 1990's (based on my interviewing them and working with them)--you kids these days are just damned DUMB. Spoiled, dumb, and lacking any knowledge of much beyond the Internet and video games.

In other words, in my tiny restricted world view, the quality of engineers from the East is better than most coming from homegrown US engineers, by a long measure. Part of this is due to US firms outsourcing and setting up facilities ex-US. Part of this is due to Americans, by and large, being dumber. You certainly can't expect the average buttmunch with drooping pants and spinning hubcaps to be as interested in Fourier transforms and thermodynamics as a 2nd-world student looking to better his family with a good job.

Once you couple the drooping pants buttmunch etc. with an American education system that is more interested in arguing mythology vs. science and testing skills vs. knowledge, articles like this are simply stating the obvious. If America was Rome, we'd be moving to Constantinople about now.

And if you walk across my lawn, I'll shoot you.

DISCLAIMER: The author is a 40-year-old curmudgeon with a ChemE degree from MIT, 1987. His opinions may not match up with whatever is current in the universe this evening.

Bonzo_1116		2005-10-13 02:08:11 AM

Can I get an AMEN for jghanc!
I've been working in the pharmaceutical/medical device industry for ~10 years now, and a good fraction (between 1/4 and 1/2) of the synthetic/creative chemists I've worked with have been from Asia. The mechanical/electrical engineers have been mostly US born, though. Most of the places I've worked have also sourced at least some raw materials internationally. Clinical trials happen world-wide, too.

It's a big wide world out there; get used to it, you provincial goons. I for one, welcome our well-educated international overlords.

/33yr old not-quite-a-curmudgeon with a chemistry degree from MIT, 1994.

helioquake		2005-10-13 02:10:38 AM

Bonzo_1116: /33yr old not-quite-a-curmudgeon with a chemistry degree from MIT, 1994.

What the heck? Are we infested by MIT folks here?

/currently at MIT (working)

God-is-a-Taco		2005-10-13 02:12:07 AM

Ahem, that's "Freedom Scientists" to you.

/from older Fark greenlit

Bonzo_1116		2005-10-13 02:23:28 AM

helioquake
At MIT they train you that sleep is unnecessary. Why do you think there's so many of us hanging around here on the night shift?

MIT is also chock-full-o-International students. Something like half the grad students are from overseas.

bmihura		2005-10-13 02:33:05 AM

On a side note, the USA wins for number of trial lawyers per capita!

Victell		2005-10-13 02:36:02 AM

No wonder. Hell, you tards in this thread cant even figure out simple arithmatic.

Aeonic_Blue		2005-10-13 02:36:05 AM

Oh yeah? Well, we have waaaaay cleaner what than India, and we have more personal possessions than the chinese.

Take that!

the_alphabetman		2005-10-13 02:36:45 AM

helioquake
Business majors I assume?

/Once saw a book titled 'How to solve business problems using a calculator' at the university bookstore.

gweilo8888		2005-10-13 02:37:06 AM

2005-10-13 01:23:02 AM etoof

Maybe the fact that they outnumber us by a respective 4x and 6x?

3.6x and 4.4x, actually. Populations:

US: 297 mil
India: 1080 mil - 3.6x
China: 1300 mil - 4.4x

Now consider that they're graduating 4.3x and 8.6x as many engineers as us, and you have a major disparity.

India graduates 20% more engineers than we do for any given number of people; China graduates 95% more - so almost twice as many as we do *for the same population sample*.

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