JLynnExtropy: The Minutemen are rascist because they want to shoot and kill Mexicans.

Wow

Awesome. I've been called a socialist or anarchist plenty of times. But never a fascist.

yoursurrogategod General Zang, thank you.

huh...didnt see that coming. Cool.

Victell

"huh...didnt see that coming. Cool."

He gave a thorough analysis with some sense and without the usual bias crap that I usually see. You just spewed garbage, there's a difference.

Where is the post with the armored car pic!!!???

yoursurrogategod
He gave a thorough analysis with some sense and without the usual bias crap that I usually see. You just spewed garbage, there's a difference.

Hahaha. Should have seen that one coming!

Zang's comment comes with added poignancy when it diffuses a flame war on fark whereby two people realize they actually see eye to eye on the same topic.

Truly a first.

JLynnExtropy: The Minutemen are rascist because they want to shoot and kill Mexicans.

Cite?

The Minutemen website, instructions to members, and leadership all have stated that any of the armaments they use are for self-defense only. If they are used offensively, they will go to jail for murder. Don't think that nobody's watching...the media's there, the protesters are there, and the cops are there. Many people are waiting for the Minutemen to fark up so they can make them look bad.

The fact that there hasn't been any such incidents seems to strongly counteract this claim.

If I had the time, I would gladly go down there and volunteer to patrol the border and report violators to the Border Patrol. As there are rather violent, desparate individuals (many of the violent ones are members of drug-smuggling operations and similar groups), I would certainly be armed for self-defense.

inkdrinker

"Awesome. I've been called a socialist or anarchist plenty of times. But never a fascist."

When you resort to name-calling in a pathetic to thwart criticism and support your view, you're not too far away from what the Fuehrer did during WWII in order to win over support against the Untermenschen.

Lets dispense with the "racist" smear, it really obfuscates the point.

General Zang -- and others -- make some good points.

Zang: I think the democrats are scared to go after this from an ethnic perspective. They are scared of being seen as "racist" -- even the labor movement leaders in the USA won't ask for a clampdown on immigration for the most part they say the migrants are taking jobs nobody else wants. But the migrants ar edepressing wages -- htat's why no American will work for this price. The migrant workers from Mexico, would have more rights if they were legal. The Republican politiicans with the excepotion of Tancredo, etc are going to continue to allow illegals to pour in because of the cheap labor. And cheap labor benefits their corporate supporters.

and the flame war reignites.

"Zang: I think the democrats are scared to go after this from an ethnic perspective. They are scared of being seen as "racist" -- even the labor movement leaders in the USA won't ask for a clampdown on immigration for the most part they say the migrants are taking jobs nobody else wants. But the migrants ar edepressing wages -- htat's why no American will work for this price. The migrant workers from Mexico, would have more rights if they were legal. The Republican politiicans with the excepotion of Tancredo, etc are going to continue to allow illegals to pour in because of the cheap labor. And cheap labor benefits their corporate supporters."

Yep. You have 2 groups of people calling each other biatches in Washington when one is simply a slightly darker shade of gray. Sad...

Party Boy

"and the flame war reignites."

I like being mean at times...

Most likely a Saracen.

This is the problem because of the difference in standards of living between Mexico and the USA.

THere's no way in hell we in the USA should have to lower our standards of living with low-wages economies (illegal immigration and wal-marts etc) -- but that's exactly what's happening and will continue to happen. And we have to fight against it with very little help from our own government - made up of politicians who take money from corporations and groups unconcerned about the standard of living in the USA

Any good American will continue the fight against ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION and the WALMARTIZATION the RACE TO THE BOTTOM whatever it's called this week -- this for the good of us all.

YourSurrogateGod
We could actually discuss this topic free from smear or flames. Id like to think im not asking too much, since this truly is a class topic and Id venture to say that none of us represent the captains of industry or earn most of our capital outside of wages/labor.

I believe were really united, as a class, in our position vis-a-vis this topic.

I don't care, Mexicans are welcome in my book.

Go Wal-Mart!

Party Boy

"We could actually discuss this topic free from smear or flames. Id like to think im not asking too much, since this truly is a class topic and Id venture to say that none of us represent the captains of industry or earn most of our capital outside of wages/labor.

I believe were really united, as a class, in our position vis-a-vis this topic."

Heh... guess that sammy is doing a bigger number on me than I thought.

/i'll back off...
//is an immigrant who came here legally...
///doesn't like illegal immigration...
////doesn't like people who don't see the difference between legal and illegal immigration...

So what's a guy gotta do around here to be called an Islamofascist? I've never marked that one off the list.

YourSurrogateGod
how hard was it for you to get in the country?

the Unions are backing off this because they're hemmoraging members... and the only ones picking up members are the Latino-dominated SIEU.

2005-10-09 10:45:59 PM Crunchy Frog [TotalFark]
Most likely a Saracen.



"Saracen Pig!"

....

"Spartan Dog!"

Party Boy

"how hard was it for you to get in the country?"

It was a pain, a serious one. When the Iron Curtain fell, I had to go to the US Embassy over and over and over and over and... well you get the idea. Had to do lots of checks (medical stuff.) It took atleast 2-3 years. But it worked and I'm a proud US citizen now.

YourSurrogateGod
congratulations. 2-3 years sounds is a large chunk of time to deal with, what I imagine, lots of invasive red-tape. im guessing your in computers? How have you found the job market re: immigration. Id like to hear your unique take on this.

Open up the borders and let them all in!

Party Boy

"congratulations. 2-3 years sounds is a large chunk of time to deal with, what I imagine, lots of invasive red-tape. im guessing your in computers? How have you found the job market re: immigration. Id like to hear your unique take on this."

Well, I've lived in the states for 12 years, so I'm pretty well established. I speak the language fluently. The first 5 years are tough, but when you master the language it's only a matter of reading some stuff up about it and applying it. When you come to a point that you don't really differentiate from your friends then you're effectively part of this country (and I love bein' part of it.)

As for a job, *lol*, I'm still in college, I came here when I was a youngin'. I've done some charity work and odd-jobs for cash (what most teenagers do) while here, if that's what you wanted to know...

/needs to move out of the rents' house...

MinnesotaJack said:

General Zang -- and others -- make some good points.

Zang: I think the democrats are scared to go after this from an ethnic perspective. They are scared of being seen as "racist" -- even the labor movement leaders in the USA won't ask for a clampdown on immigration for the most part they say the migrants are taking jobs nobody else wants. But the migrants ar edepressing wages -- htat's why no American will work for this price. The migrant workers from Mexico, would have more rights if they were legal. The Republican politiicans with the excepotion of Tancredo, etc are going to continue to allow illegals to pour in because of the cheap labor. And cheap labor benefits their corporate supporters.

Don't fool yourself by thinking that the Democratic members of Congress have different motives in this game than the Republican members of Congress have.

It's all the same game. Cheap labor who can be bullied because they're here illegally is the primary goal. The secondary goal is the bullying of ALL American labor, using the cheaper illegal labor as a club to beat them with. A tertiary goal is to keep any real change from happening in Mexico, by siphoning off all of their most industrious workers.

Now, just like a football team has players who play in different positions, the Democrat politicians and the Republican politicians play different positions on the field.... even though they're all on the same team.

The Democrats are there to use the "race card" defense and the "xenophobe" defense against anyone who takes the logical position that we should enforce the immigration laws that are on the books.

The Republicans are there to use the "soft on crime" defense, and the "invasion by people who won't assimilate" defense against anyone who takes the *other* logical position that if we can't get along without the labor performed by illegal immigrants, then we should legalize their status.

Now, by alternating their plays, the Republicans and the Democrats can create the illusion that they're somehow on opposing teams.... but that's simply not true. The only goal of both parties is to maintain the current status qou of illegal immigration combined with no enforcement of the law. All of their seemingly-opposed moves are directed at their common goal... because their coaches who wrote the playbooks for both of them are the corporate money-men who underwrite all the re-election campaigns.

I mean... how stupid can people possibly be. The Republicans used to trumpet about how they were going to lock down the border and enforce the laws on immigration and "stop the flood", ect.... yet now that they've held the presidency for five years, and held a solide majority in both houses of congress for years... the border is just as unpatrolled as it ever was. Because they NEVER planned on actually following through on their position.

Oh... and the Democrats, who always crow about how immigrants shouldn't be treated as "illegals", and that "no person should be considered illegal", and "we need the labor they provide, and couldn't get along with it"..... well, they held the presidency for eight years, and had a large chunk of congress for four of those years... and yet, they also did nothing to change the status qou, because they also never intended to follow through on theiir stated position.

It's a scam.

That's why I support the Minutemen, even though they're probably light-years to the right of me politically.

I support the Minutemen because every day they operate, they show-up the complete hypocrisy of a government that no longer even pretends to serve the people who supposedly elect them, but instead simply play-act at fighting "the other side" while they all take orders from their corporate campaign donors.

YourSurrogateGod
Your definately in the same boat as many others in looking for a job - which really is the crux of this topic. I wish the best of luck to you in finding one post-graduation.

I'm going to research the topic of how difficult immigration is into this country further. Its definately something I know little about.

This topic also has an important corollary: outsourcing.

Protect our borders, bah, the terrorists are going to be the ones who come in legally. Or more likely they will come from Canada, if they are going to try and cross illegally, the Arizona desert is brutal year round.

If this is really about trying to stop migrant/drug smuggling then you could probably do better with a high flying surveillance aircraft. Having just one of these vehicles only means the smugglers (who are smarter than our rube of a Shariff here) will move down the border a piece.

Others are worried about migrants taking good jobs away from Americans. I tell you if I see one more Mexican CEO I am going to pop a cork. When they are not taking the plum executive positions they are taking those high paying Fast-Food, house cleaning, and agricultural jobs. Oh wait those jobs pay crap...

The truth is they can not stop them from entering, there are just too many. Not when they just keep trying... there were estimated 3 million illegal immigrants in the last year, only one thrid were caught. However, we don't know if those numbers contain any repeat attempts. The right thing would be to produce a policy that allows them to pass through the legal check points and therefore eliminate this farce.

It just goes to show how pathetic this whole "Homeland Security" department thing is- that the borders leak like a sieve. Local police departments have to pick up the slack and buy armored vehicles? That's really bad. However, I say good for them, the local and state governments should step in if the Federal government abdicates its responsibility or is too incompetent to do the job.

As for allowing illegal immigrants in, the answer is no. We have laws to keep from everything degenerating into a free-for-all. However, the laws should be changed to allow a lot more people in. The only major requirement would be that after 6 months, their status as a resident should be contingent on having found a job. As long as they can make a living in the U.S. (or wherever they want to be), then I say they should be allowed to. The people who don't, should get a pat on the back, a wish good luck, and a ticket back home.

Fun-with-Monkeys We already have a high unemployment rate and adding people w/o adding jobs is a bad mix.

When I hear people from the U.S. say that I laugh. The U.S. has one of the lowest rates of unemployment in the world. Hell, in most places if you have 12% unemployment and you're doing spectacularly.

Im signing off - thanks for the discussion.

Could be a Pandur 2:

General Zang:
I support the Minutemen because blahblahblah...

OK you lost me there. The Minutemen are not out there because of some lofty socio-political goal, but rather that they're underemployed poor white trash who hate Mexicans.

I'm mexican. And damn farking proud of it. I live in border state, and illegal inmigration pisses me off.

You know why? None of the goverments (both mexican and american) truly care. They don't. And you wanna know why they don't pass legally?.

The legal visas are expensive. And take a lot of time.

If it were possible to reduce the bureaucracy and make the visas less expensive, there would be more legal workers, both goverments could have a win-win situation, and we'd all be fine!.

oh, yeah. I'll take this out of the way too.

Oh BTW, I live in Sonora, in Mexico. We're like Baja, only drug cartel-free (for the moment, in the south of the state they're kinda powerful, but that's because we have our little brother, Sinaloa, right there, the rest of the state is pretty much calm).

Weaver95: We really need to beef up the southern border. Alot!

We can't - the ACLU said that's racist.


Got a cite?

Clem: Mexico likes illegals coming here, as the illegals here send US dollars back to Mexico. They estimate this year EIGHTEEN BILLION DOLLARS will be sent to Mexico.


Isn't that like a week's worth of war in Iraq?

This sign needs point values beneath each person.

Then again, if you hit one, my U.S. tax dollars will pay for their hospital bills while Blue Cross cancels someone's policy for having a history of rashes.

Gotta love it.

Good for him, I hope he captures a whole bunch of illegals and ships them back to Mexico.

Crazytree said:

OK you lost me there. The Minutemen are not out there because of some lofty socio-political goal, but rather that they're underemployed poor white trash who hate Mexicans.

Is that true? Is that how the Minutemen describe themselves, and is that how they state their goals?

Or is that just the spin that the Democrat-Republican status-qou machine decided to use to discredit them?

For instance... you just know that because the Minutemen are pissing in the soup of the powers-that-be, that if they EVER committed any actions that were even slightly illegal while patrolling the border, that they'd be in jail faster than you could blink.

So... have any Minutemen been arrested for treating illegally-entering immigrants in a bad way? Have any Minutemen been arrested for doing bad things while at the border? Because, you just know that if one of the Minutemen even had an old unpaid parking ticket that he'd be cuffed and in the back of a patrol car instantly.

So, please provide citations for any of the Minutemen on patrol having been charged (formally), and arrested for mistraeting people or doing anything illegal... if you can.

In my mind... if the Minutemen are doing nothing illegal, and if they aren't mistreating anyone, or doing anything but simply observing and reporting illegal border traffic... then who cares what they beleive in the privacy of their own minds?

If someone is breaking no laws, and obeying all codes of civilized conduct, and treating people decently, WHILE performing a public service, then does it really matter what their private motivation is?

If one of the Minutemen thought he was the reincarnation of Joan of Arc, and believed that houseplants were minions of eviiil.... but his observable public behavior was always legal and polite, then who cares?

Heck... and that's even *assuming* that your accusation of rascism were even true.

So...

1) Please cite where the Minutemen themselves decalre that they're doing this because they hate Mexicans. I highly doubt you'll find such a qoute.

2) Please cite reliable multiple sources that show that Minutemen have conducted illegal activity or mistreated people while on patrol. I also highly doubt that you'll find that either.

No offense... but without evidence, and without sources, then your statements about the Minutemen being rascists is simply conjecture... or an example of someone who bought the "race card" defense when it was spoon-fed to him by one faction of the powers-that-be.

General Zang hits the nail on the head again.

General Zang

Um.

That's some horseshiat logic right there buddy.

Compliance with the law and the stated goal of those jumped-up white trash losers has nothing to do with what their private motives are. That requires inference. The facts are such that, if any inference is to be drawn, it is that they are there because they either love circlejerking each other over the red-white-and-blue flag and feel Mexicans to be a threat to America, simply hate Mexicans, or both.

mugen.: if any inference is to be drawn, it is that they are there because they either love circlejerking each other over the red-white-and-blue flag and feel Mexicans to be a threat to America, simply hate Mexicans, or both.

I think their fathers showered with them and took them to Turkish prisons, too.

mugen.

Compliance with the law and the stated goal of those jumped-up white trash losers has nothing to do with what their private motives are.

Isn't that sort of what he was saying?

Their private motives are irrelevant. They are complying with the law and, to some people's minds, doing us all a service.