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(Belper News) NewsFlash 18 dead in Germany school shooting   ( divider line
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9600 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 Apr 2002 at 10:02 AM (15 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»

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2002-04-26 12:22:00 PM  
People illegally acquiring a gun in Germany? It almost sounds like some American foreign intelligence agency flooded a country in the region with weapons...

(Hint for Americans: Yugoslavia)
2002-04-26 12:27:05 PM  
I'd believe you Traxel45, if I thought you could outrun a bullet.

And since he had a shotgun, it's pretty hard to "duck out of the way" of that.
2002-04-26 12:27:46 PM  
BoxerbiatchXX, what do you mean that was funny? Are you saying what I think you're saying?! No... respawn...

*ponders for a moment*

I refuse to believe it. Just like I refuse to let the Jehovah's Witnesses leave my yard without the customary loud bang and tear gas.
2002-04-26 12:28:06 PM  
Stop equating guns with drugs you morons. They are completey different and it is one of the DUMBEST analogies I have ever heard. Of course we need gun laws, we just don't need new more restrictive gun laws. We (USA) already have more laws on the books than we can enforce.
2002-04-26 12:28:15 PM  
Walkman I'll clarify a little. In GENERAL society firearms prevent crime. The subculture you're referring to is a drug and gang culture and can not be considered a part of any acceptable society. Yes, you'll always have some group that goes against the grain but if more people were armed they'd be far fewer of them. Also note where gangs exist: in places that have the strictest gun laws. You won't find a gang invading a small town somewhere in West Texas or the deep South.

there are plenty of shootings in poorer areas down south with lax gun control and no gangs. the reason you don't see shootings in yuppie suburban northern towns is not because anyone there owns a gun (most don't), but because people there are well off and don't get in that many conflicts with others. of course, in cities, denser population also accounts for more crime. but widespread gun ownership simply adds to the likelhood of death after a conflict: in the inner city, in robberies, in cases of domestic violence, everywhere.
2002-04-26 12:29:41 PM  
It would also be pretty hard to KILL 18 people with a shotgun, eventually you would have to reload because there is no way you could get them all on one magazine. When you see Johnny go down you don't stand there and wait for your turn.
2002-04-26 12:30:15 PM  
I was serious about the tear gas thing.

2002-04-26 12:30:15 PM  
I love how these anti-gun people try to leap to the conclusion that if a gun cannot be used succesfully in every scenario to defend one's self that they are useless in self defence. Yet they argue that guns should be banned even though it will not totally stop violence, even gun violence.
2002-04-26 12:30:25 PM  
I thought Germans had guns under control...maybe "gun control" doesn't work so well after all?

Well put Walkman.

one anecdote does not prove a point. i'd be interested in seeing overall stats about homicide and guns in Germany vs the US.

but i'm going to lunch now, so i'm not going to look for it : )
2002-04-26 12:31:06 PM  
Here's how people get shot when others don't even try to prevent it.

I saw a story several years ago and don't recall where it happened (Houston maybe?) but it was in a McD's (someone can find the story, I'm too lazy). Some guy went nutjob, pulled out a .45 and started shooting. Killed several people. The thing that struck me the most was after it was all over and they were talking to the survivors was one guy said he "was standing right behind him in the line when he pulled the gun! I barely made it to cover before he started shooting!" You what? You had a chance to rabbit punch the farker and stop it before it ever got started and you farkING RAN?!? You cowardly piece of shiat. If I'd been the cops I'd have charged this asshole with accessory to murder.
2002-04-26 12:31:10 PM  
While I agree with you that we should just enforce the laws on the books, the drug analogy is accurate. When something is highly desired by criminals, no law will keep them away from it.

2002-04-26 12:31:19 PM  
In GENERAL society firearms prevent crime. The subculture you're referring to is a drug and gang culture and can not be considered a part of any acceptable society.

Therefore, we should outlaw gangs and drugs...oh, wait a second here, they already are illegal! Silly me!
2002-04-26 12:32:47 PM  
I hate news like this. :(
2002-04-26 12:33:34 PM  
Texaggie79: A better analogy would be guns and fundies.
2002-04-26 12:35:08 PM  
I personally don't understand the whole "rednecks love to shoot people opinion" of so many of the people here. I admittedly live in a region heavily populated with rednecks where damn near everyone owns multiple guns. Interestingly enough, we have at most 5-8 shootings (not murders, but shootings) in the county. But when I turn on the news at night, I hear about all the suburbanites and the city folk farther east of me in the Baltimore-DC area that are shooting each other like it's WW3.

Would there be fewer "heat of the moment" deaths going on with no guns? Probably. However, if guns are completely banned, then to use the cliché, only the baddies would have the guns, because they would still be circulating, just like drugs. And I can get drugs within an hour or so if I want them, even though they are illegal. Ban guns and you'll have the same problem.

As for the whole "call the police" idea. I'm all for it. If someone breaks into my house, you'd better believe I'm calling the police. I'll tell them what's going on, and if he gets too close before the police get there, which would almost certainly be the case, then I'll do what needs to be done and take the bastard down.

I believe this comes down to a matter of personal responsibility. That, in my opinion, is what is wrong with this country, or the world for that matter. Noone wants to take any responsibility for anything and leave it all up to someone else. If you have an open pit on your property that is marked and the property is posted, you can still be sued, and you will lose, if someone falls in and gets hurt or killed. I've seen it happen (the suing part). I'll take responsibility for my own actions and my own defense and my own guns. Unfortunately, many others will want to keep the government as their mommy to protect them. Do as you wish, it's your right and I wouldn't dream of taking that from you. I just ask that in return you let me mind my own business and enjoy the shooting sports.

Oh yeah, btw: I've never shot anyone, nor have I ever been so much as tempted to. Perhaps everyone isn't as stable as me ;)
2002-04-26 12:35:20 PM  
"I refuse to let the Jehovah's Witnesses leave my yard without the customary loud bang and tear gas."

shiat! What a brilliant idea! And all this time I've been throwing buckets of urine at them.
2002-04-26 12:35:32 PM  
Wasn't it England who recently started arming beat cops?
2002-04-26 12:36:12 PM  
I forget what year but a puerto rican man in New York killed 80 people in a night club with a dollars worth of gas and a match.

Try doing that with a gun.
2002-04-26 12:36:33 PM  
No, Warakiya, I just appriciate your sence of humor. I thought the comment was pretty deeply funny. I didn't mean to sound sarcastic or anything. I believe in God and everything, but argh...Jehovah's Witnesses. Tear gas is a good idea. :)
2002-04-26 12:38:04 PM  
Here are some interestion fact to throw into the mix
* In 1996, Dr. John R. Lott of the University of Chicago Law School published the results of
a crime study conducted using FBI data for all 3,045 U.S. counties from 1977 to 1992. (15)

* The study sought to answer the question, "What happens to crime when states adopt
right-to-carry laws?" (15)

* Between 1977 and 1992, 10 states adopted right-to-carry laws. Dr. Lott's study found
that the implementation of these laws created:

-- no change in suicide rates,
-- a .5% rise in accidental firearm deaths,
-- a 5% decline in rapes,
-- a 7% decline in aggravated assaults,
-- and an 8% decline in murder

for the 10 states that adopted these laws between 1977 and 1992. (7)

* Using 1995 numbers, this amounts to:

-- 1 more accidental gun death,
-- 316 less murders,
-- 939 less rapes,
-- and 14,702 less aggravated assaults

* Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. Between 1987 and 1996, these changes
occurred: Florida United States
homicide rate -36% -.4%
firearm homicide rate -37% +15%
handgun homicide rate -41% +24%
2002-04-26 12:40:11 PM  
ACK! *slaps self across face* Sence=sense.
2002-04-26 12:42:48 PM  
Here is the deal. You break into my house I am going to call the police. After your ass has a bad case of lead poisoning. Simple.
2002-04-26 12:43:00 PM  
Aw gee Guiness! You're ruining the antis "but more guns equals more crime and more death" argument. Sheesh. Tossing out facts in a flame war is absolutely inexcusable! Turn off your computer and go to your room! You should be ashamed of yourself!
2002-04-26 12:48:53 PM  
3 people with one crossbowshot? Are you drunk? Have you ever shot a crossbow, I have. You'd be DAMN lucky to get one person , and the damage would be much much less than a single bullet. When you tried to reload after that one shot, you'd be jumped on by everyone else.

Yes I have shot a crossbow. The bolt will penetrate at least 1" into solid oak which translates into much more than 1 person. The fact that you don't know that the projectile is called a bolt makes me doubt that you've ever even fired one.

A car full of gas? Heh. through a brick wall? You'd make a nice charred mark on the outside of the building, and maybe they'd have to have a fire drill cause of you.

Well let's see. You really think a brick veneer wall is going to stop a car? Even brick and block won't. Hit at a window and you'll be inside with no problems.

I know you don't like little things like facts get in your way but try and be a little more realistic.

a molotov cocktail? Are you serious? It's pretty much impossible to kill anyone with one of those. You might light a couple people's pants on fire, you could even burn them if they stood still for long enough, but you wouldn't kill anyone unless you got a really lucky shot. haven't you ever seen protesters throw them at riot cops? they just dust off the flames and keep coming, in worse case, they get a burn scar on their leg.

Ok, let me pour flaming gasoline on you and let's see what happens. They're throwing from 30 or 40 feet away. Try it from 5 or 10.
2002-04-26 12:50:35 PM  
"The shooting came just hours before the German parliament approved a new bill tightening the country's already strict gun controls."

Deja vu, all over again! Seems that whenever a major gun control bill would go up for a state assembly's approval (during President Splooge-stain's reign), a school shooting erupted just days before the scheduled vote.

"Tricks of the trade," I guess. Except the Germans are much more prompt.
2002-04-26 12:51:20 PM  
Boogybrown wrote: "I forget what year but a puerto rican man in New York killed 80 people in a night club with a dollars worth of gas and a match."

I've been telling the government to ban Puerto Ricans for years, but no one listens!

back on topic... Guinness_man Those are interesting statistics, but they don't indicate a cause-effect. I'm sure I could find a statistic that says people in Thailand who own toasters are more likely to use condoms. That doesn't mean that one causes the other.

Changes in laws, police procedures, community involvement, economic growth, etc. all affect crime rates. To pin all the changes on gun ownership is misleading.
2002-04-26 12:52:23 PM  
Let's all turn our guns in and let the government patrol our homes and streets. Maybe put a real nice armed guard in each class room.
2002-04-26 12:52:44 PM  

Actual crime statistics with a link (full of footnotes) to back them up have no place on this board.

In the future, only make statements like

"My sister's friend's second cousin knew someone who once saw a picture of a gun and three years later she got cancer. Guns should be illegal"


"My uncle's cousin's brother's friend was eaten by canibals because he didn't have a gun to defend himself due to liberal treefarking anti gun fanatics."
2002-04-26 12:52:45 PM  
/blockedIP fires his heavy crossbow of maiming and torture at Texaggie79 for 82 HP of damage.

/Texaggie79 slumps to the ground, smoldering, his soul sent to hell due to paladin blockedIP's close ties with the big benevolent chick in the sky.
2002-04-26 12:52:50 PM  
Oh come on. In the real world, antagonist does not usually mean "a burglar robbing your house". Situations like employee suprising a burglar, rival drug dealer, bully at school, person you are in an argument with, etc, all happen MUCH more often than the mythical "protecting your family" situation. If weapons weren't present, they would not likely end in death.

You mean like the way that homicides have skyrocketed in States with right to carry laws?
2002-04-26 12:52:57 PM  
Tabe- how bout an armed guard in yuor living room
2002-04-26 12:54:43 PM  
Hey, this doesn't look like an infinite number of comments to me!
2002-04-26 12:56:33 PM  
"Hey, this doesn't look like an infinite number of comments to me!"

Just keep hitting the F5 key
2002-04-26 12:56:51 PM  
First off, in actually keeping with the topic, I'd like to offer condolences to the families and friends of this horrible event.

Now, jumping away from the topic and into the main-stream conversation about gun control, I'd like to comment on this quote from Walkman.

"An armed society is a polite society."

For comparison, let's place Canada, with strict firearms laws, side by side with the United States and it's not-so-strict firearms laws. The following statistics are from 1998.

Population: 30,000,000 (roughly)
Total Homicides: 555
Total Robberies: 28,879
Firearm Homicides: 151 (27.2%)
Firearm Robberies: 5348 (18.5%)
Firearm Homicides per 100,000 people: 1.8
Registered hand guns: 30,000 to 35,000

United States
Population: 280,000,000 (roughly)
Total Homicides: 16,911
Total Robberies: 446,625
Firearm Homicides: 10973 (64.9%)
Firearm Robberies: 170,611 (38.2%)
Firearm Homicides per 100,000 people: 4.1
Registered hand guns: 30,000,000 to 35,000,000

Interesting Facts
Twice as many firearm homicides were committed in the United States by children 14-17 years old (1165) than all homicides in Canada combined (555). In Canada, more than five times as many suicides (815) than homicides (151) were committed with firearms.

I don't see how people can argue that everyone having guns is a good thing. Statistics show that it't not. How can you argue fact?
2002-04-26 12:57:33 PM  
Trax - Sounds good to me. As long as he doesn't bogard the popcorn.
2002-04-26 12:59:27 PM  
Its simple Canadians are french
2002-04-26 12:59:30 PM  
IDC-Tarin Are you adjusting your statistics for proportions of ethnic groups with known higher incidences of homicide?
2002-04-26 01:00:49 PM  
In Canada, more than five times as many suicides (815) than homicides (151) were committed with firearms.

If you are going to off yourself a gun does make it easy.
2002-04-26 01:03:08 PM  

The US has over 1,000 times more handguns (feel free to divide by nine for the pop difference) and roughly only double the handgun murder rate. Shouldn't our rate be at least 100x Canada's? How's our rate for non-gun related murder compare to Canada ?
2002-04-26 01:04:11 PM  
It truly is ironic that this incident has pro gun control people arguing that limiting access to firearms will prevent these kinds of tragedies. And yes I believe it is fair to juxtapose the stats of alcohol related auto fatalities and injuries with gun deaths and injuries (they are shockingly close in their totals), because they are both indicative of some misusing something that can and are used responsibly by the majority.

Please save the guns are only designed to kill argument for the Olympic athletes that win medals for murder. There are roughly 70 million of us that have found recreational uses for them as well. And yes the fact that they can be used to kill is why I own certain firearms for defensive purposes

Yes I suspect that banning guns from private ownership in this country would reduce (though not significantly) the number of "crimes of passion" that end in death. However, there is an inherent danger in living, any of us can be killed or injured as the result of the stupidity and malice of others. Punishing people that have yet to behave in a criminal way is both reprehensible and in theory illegal. I refuse to quietly accept punishment and limits to my freedom, because of the actions of others, so that you may feel safer.

It is funny that those of you that consider me paranoid because I own a firearm for defense suffer from the same fear that I do, that some one with a gun may at some time be a threat. The difference is that if you take away mine, the ones that I fear will still be out there.

Sorry for the length of my rant. I will now go outside and enjoy some fresh air before work. Any one that would care to reply to my rant is welcome to e-mail me. I would hate be accused of stirring the pot and running away
2002-04-26 01:04:23 PM  
Bad_CRC.. NONE of your arguments are valid...

It IS our right to bear arms.
2002-04-26 01:05:14 PM  
Cosimo: I just grabbed stats from a bunch of websites. Regardless of where you come from, it's a whole lot easier to kill someone if you have a gun in your hand.

Breezer: Same goes for suicides. Guns make it far too easy and painless. I guess jumping off a building is just as easy and painless, but then you actually have time to reconsider. Of course, the extra time isn't going to do you much good as you're falling and thinking "well shiat."
2002-04-26 01:06:05 PM  
It all really comes down to Mom and Dad (family values), not gun controll...
2002-04-26 01:08:26 PM  
Man this thread has been fun, at least both sides are educated with good points
2002-04-26 01:08:34 PM  

Two reasons to argue your facts.

a. It's the individual, not the gun because if you took away the guns, people would use knives/bats/etc. and
b. a gun is more convenient to use for a homicide.

Face it, the US is a huge ethnic melting pot with a history in violent aggression.
2002-04-26 01:09:02 PM  

A person should be able to off himself in any fashion he chooses.
2002-04-26 01:09:22 PM  
I think we should clone Tabe and keep him in everyones living room.
2002-04-26 01:13:12 PM  

Ah, that explains Japan's high suicide rate. Easy gun access.

"I guess jumping off a building is just as easy and painless, but then you actually have time to reconsider."

I didn't realize you could change your mind while falling and defy gravity. This statement explains where you get your opinions.

"In this house we obey the laws of physics" - hsimpson
2002-04-26 01:13:20 PM  
Oh my god.
2002-04-26 01:14:50 PM  
Don't blame the guns....Blame those damn BULLETS !
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