2500 yards is a mile an a half if I am doing hte math and understanding correctly.

That can't be right, can a guy with a scope even see a mile and a half?

The Larch: I'll explain it to you slowly.

What evidence do you have that I am a racist? The fact that I don't respect third world mentalities and ignorance?

At least it was not a Hmong Jury!

What evidence do you have that I am a racist? The fact that I don't respect third world mentalities and ignorance?

Umm, yeah... you kind of defined it. The idea you seem to consider different = ignorant.

Howard Dean's Coward Genes: What evidence do you have that I am a racist? The fact that I don't respect third world mentalities and ignorance?

Ummm... would I need any other evidence?

Howard Dean's Coward Genes

Welcome to what happens when you let the third world and its mentality into America in the name of doing good...

Since Katrina, we have discovered among ourselves the U.S. is a thrid world country. May be not in wealth, or technology. But mentality. Make no mistake about it.

I also heard the rednecks in the south do their cousins. Grandmas teach sex education to their grandkids in a practically way. And common knowledge that teachers sleep with students.

What does it prove?

Want to paint everybody the same color with the same brush?

Yes, you would. Racism refers to race, not culture. By all means, call me a culturalist.

mlloydm: I actually think we're kind of on the same page here. Hitting a man at >1000 yards is damn near impossible. With the right equipment (and a hell of a lot of training), you can really reach out there and hit *something,* but it's pretty specialized high dollar stuff.

Not just anyone can do this. You also have to blessed genetically. It's like hitting a big league fastball. Most people can't do it.

on any fark thread where racism is brought up, people start calling other people racists. you don't like what someone posts, they must be a racist.

Mosey: Umm, yeah... you kind of defined it. The idea you seem to consider different = ignorant.


Ok, I'll play. Do you consider female circumcision a valid cultural practice? Because I consider some things that are "different" to reflect ignorance.

neoconBimbo: Want to paint everybody the same color with the same brush?


There are stupid people here too, nobody disputes that. But at least we don't stone people to death, practice female circumcision, polygamy, incest, etc... (at least on a large, socially acceptable scale).

Racism sucks, shiat happens, but you would hope it wouldn't come to something like this over some words. Definitely getting what he deserves; you don't kill six people in self defense, by chasing them down.

Howard Dean's Coward Genes

There are stupid people here too, nobody disputes that. But at least we don't stone people to death, practice female circumcision, polygamy, incest, etc... (at least on a large, socially acceptable scale).

I don't remember or hear about the Hmoong people carry out female circumcision, stone people to death. We are talking about Hmoong people here right? Not towelheads.

Polygamy? How about Utah?
Incest? Georgia? Virginia? Missi.?

I also heard the Ohio state is teaching in school Intelligent Design.

Talk about BACKWARD.

knobmaker
Doh. I guess I should have quoted what I was replying too.


I never claimed, nor do I believe that anyone can hit a man sized target at 3000m with conventional small arms. But equipment sized targets can be hit at tht range with some specially equiped rifles.

And I should add that there is no way in heck that I'm ever going to be able to do this.

Ok, I'll play. Do you consider female circumcision a valid cultural practice? Because I consider some things that are "different" to reflect ignorance.

Gosh, your *big* evidence before was they were polygamists... way to move those goalposts.

You just keep talking and the more you talk the less arguing anyone who calls you a racist needs to do.

Here is a hint, you say things like "they" when speaking about entire races and cultures, mix two cultures up and take the worst of both and attribute it to a possibly third culture with a nice, wide brush. Not, "some" or "a slim minority, but "they" and your "they" isn't even right, just the right color.

/Normally the last person to call anyone a racist as easily as that word is thrown around.
// You sir, are a racist.

Howard Dean's Coward Genes: But at least we don't stone people to death, practice female circumcision, polygamy, incest, etc... (at least on a large, socially acceptable scale).


It's ironic that you decry stoning people for adultery, and also complain about the practice of polygamy.

neoconBimbo
Incest? Georgia? Virginia? Missi.?

your forgot to include other stereotypes...irish drink, polacks are stupid, etc, etc, etc.

/ in atlanta but haven't dated family yet

neoconBimbo: I don't remember or hear about the Hmoong people carry out female circumcision, stone people to death. We are talking about Hmoong people here right? Not towelheads.

I was speaking generally to refute the idea of cultural relativism, which was employed by Mosey as a "broad brush" to say that Hmong people couldn't possibly be ignorant, just "different".

Anyone doubting the ability to hit man-sized targets at,in this case, 800 meters (880 yds) should check out this video of Blackwater guys at work in Najaf.

http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2677403?showw=no&refsite=6721&htv=12&htv=12

(no html skills, cuz I suck)

/ in atlanta but haven't dated family yet


Maybe you need to tell Pappy to stop bogarting.

/sorry
// couldn't resist, sorry again.

Howard Dean's Coward Genes

I was speaking generally to refute the idea of cultural relativism, which was employed by Mosey as a "broad brush" to say that Hmong people couldn't possibly be ignorant, just "different".

You SIR. Is a coward.

Clearly, there is something wrong with Hmong culture in America. There is no other way to explain their overwhelming failure to succeed.

Mosey

haha :)

Why am I a coward? You employ a broad brush stroke and paint me as a racist, I prove how stupid PC ideas about cultural equality are. Seems reasonable enough.

If you really need more evidence of how miserably the Hmong have performed at integrating I'll find it.

Sachlpch: Y'know I hate to say that this guy might've gotten a bum deal,
Deadmeat: My take on it is that it was a clash of cultures ... Vang responded to protect himself, but the law thought he was a bit overzealous.
Sphinx16: This whole thing stinks. Stinks of poorly trained LEO's, stinks of lazy self-important D.A.'s, stinks of the whole inbred process. There's a feeling that Vang didn't get a fair trial, that there was no possible way that he'd get one. True or not, it's there. We're gonna have to deal with it.
deviantpdx: Somehow I do not believe he is a "violent, dangerous criminal". Wrong place, wrong time and the wrong thing in hand.

The reason this case is doubtful and complex to some people is the un-PC racial element: a non-white massacred a bunch of unarmed whites. That isn't supposed to happen in a multicultural utopia like America; it doesn't fit the proper formula for interracial crime.

If we take out the racial element (make the killer white too), or reverse it (white criminal shoots a bunch of unarmed non-whites whose land he is on), the proper legal outcome would be obvious to everyone: guilty as hell, life in prison.

If you really need more evidence of how miserably the Hmong have performed at integrating I'll find it.

This can not possibly be real... Will you be asking at your Klan meeting?

You don't even see (among other hints I gave you) that you are starting with a premise, and looking for any evidence you can find to prove a sterotype, and obviously ignoring any that is contrary.

You just keep talking, it is to the point it is entertaining.

Rast2

Precisely.

Mosey: This can not possibly be real... Will you be asking at your Klan meeting?

I'm not starting from a premise. I have read many, many articles detailing their struggles to assimilate and general cultural backwardness. If you believe the major political parties about multiculturalism you're a sheep.

I even provided a few in my P-O-S-T numero uno in this thread. I'm sure you can dig up many others, just Google it.

Howard Dean's Coward Gene

Wow. Usually, when you call someone names on the internet, they ignore you, or try to prove you wrong. You're the first to get go out of his way to prove me right.

The one question that'll probably come up on appeal is whether what he did counts as first-degree murder.

I'm not sure hunting down the rest of the victims would count as premeditated. I'm sure he didn't plan to kill 6 people when he went out hunting, and even though he did hunt the rest of them down, he might have gotten caught up in the moment.

He was out hunting, after all, and ended up with the long pork instead of a deer.

Rast2: The reason this case is doubtful and complex to some people is the un-PC racial element: a non-white massacred a bunch of unarmed whites.

A psychotic scumbag killed six people, and is going to prison for the rest of his life. That part is sad, and complex, and depressing by itself.

The un-PC element is that racist assholes have been coming out of the woodwork and latching onto this trial. And every one of them seems to think this trial "proves" their preconceived notions about race. And, there are plenty of racist liberals and conservatives latching onto this one...

He fought in a war. He is a man who has been trined to fiht for his life, who has fought for his life. You don't forget that sort of thing in a hurry. The army kills people professionally, it's best not shoot at them.

Although the Hmongs deserve respect for fighting gor the US,taht said, chinese and white people will never get along as groups. From what I've seen, minorities do fine as long as they are on their own. They end up fitting in as anybody else.But when you get two or more minorites, then you get grouping, you get resentment, you get racism. It will forever be 'us and them', and there's nothing you can do other than move to a country with more people who look like you. You can respect other cultures at ams length but once they start living right next to you every day of the week it's another matter.

Everybody is racist at heart. But we can avoid being racist in action if we live on seperate continents.

Immaculate Misconception

I was wondering what you were doing carrying a G3 in the USMC, but you answered my question.

I actually think we're kind of on the same page here. Hitting a man at >1000 yards is damn near impossible. With the right equipment (and a hell of a lot of training), you can really reach out there and hit *something,* but it's pretty specialized high dollar stuff.

/I have no problem shooting under 2MOA off a bench with a 40 year old Model 70 .243.
//But I still maintain shooting a sub MOA group in the field takes shiatload of skill.

I agree that we're kind of on the same page.

I think I have a new un-favourite FARKer.

Howard Dean's Coward Genes does have a few (note, a few)valid points. Recognizing a cultures downfalls is not being racist. I grew up in MN & saw a lot of good & bad from the Hmong community over the past couple decades. While most are hard working, educated, & willing to assimilate, there is still a group that just refuses to. Some feel that their culture trumps our laws. Domestic violence is fairly common in the hmong community as it's (supposedly) acceptable to beat your wife. There have been cases in some not so rural & outer rim suburban areas where dogs & cats have been butchered for food. In some asain cultures it's (supposedly) an accepted practice to marry 1st cousins & marry young women off to older men. Not to mention the fact that some had a hard time realizing there are limitations on hunting & fishing & where you can do these things. Keep in mind, this is the minority of the community. But some bleeding heart, white guilt types are OK w/ this behavior since it's "preserving their culture".

The greater Hmong community has been working very hard to help newer arrivals realize that America is not southeast Asia & some of their old practices are not accepted here. They have also done a good job of reviving some bad neighborhoods in the Twin Cities area, getting involved in politics & education, supporting local businesses, etc. It's a combo of cuture shock & growing pains. While many Americans have no problem w/ accepting immigrants, the immigrants themselves have a responsibility to assimilate as much as possible. Society will eventually deem what parts of their cultures are acceptable & what is not. Until then, they have to do what they can to get by & blend.

Paranoid_Android: He fought in a war.

Not unless you consider weekends in the Guard a "war."

chinese and white people will never get along as groups.

Hmong are not "chinese."

When you can't get the simple stuff right, it's hard to take you seriously on the complicated stuff.

Be careful thinking this guy is symbolic of a trend. Hunting, racial tensions, property rights, weapons -- that's the farking definition of how most people in the history of the world have been murdered. Reading up on the hmong is interesting, but I don't know why this psycho is supposed to be representative of his culture.

Sphinx16:Minnesotans think Wisconsin is a hick backwater, prove us wrong.

No, we don't, actually. Minnesotans in Minneapolis/Saint Paul think everywhere outside of their urban jungle is backwater, whether it's Wisconsin or the rest of their own state.

That was the part I really didn't like. From what I understand, the guy was an infantryman in a long and bloody war. Would anyone expect any different reaction from a returning Vietnam Vet?

You shoot at someone's feet, you better expect a serious farking response.

This is the 400# gorilla nobody seems to see.

Bullshiat.

The only one that says he was shot at is the guy who shot 8 people, and only one of them was armed in the first place to have even done it.

MrGumboPants:Reading up on the hmong is interesting, but I don't know why this psycho is supposed to be representative of his culture.

Hunters in Minnesota and Wisconsin don't like running into Hmong out there because too often they're poaching and/or trespassing (a well known and documented problem that every outdoorsman is aware of around here).

This guy just happened to have been doing both, not to mention having been ticketed for doing it before... of course that's going to create tension with the hunters you run into out there. Even before the shooting it was guys like this that were creating the problem in the first place.

He's not representative of his culture, but he's representative of a problem with it that is probably the primary cause of contact with most of their caucasian neighbors.

Paranoid_Android:

He fought in a war. He is a man who has been trined to fiht for his life, who has fought for his life. You don't forget that sort of thing in a hurry. The army kills people professionally, it's best not shoot at them.

Although the Hmongs deserve respect for fighting gor the US,taht said, chinese and white people will never get along as groups. From what I've seen, minorities do fine as long as they are on their own. They end up fitting in as anybody else.But when you get two or more minorites, then you get grouping, you get resentment, you get racism. It will forever be 'us and them', and there's nothing you can do other than move to a country with more people who look like you. You can respect other cultures at ams length but once they start living right next to you every day of the week it's another matter.

Everybody is racist at heart. But we can avoid being racist in action if we live on seperate continents.

Where should I begin.

1. He didn't fight in a war.
2. Soldiers are not trained to be murderers.
3. Hmong people are not Chinese.
4. The number two doesn't automatically create racial strife.
5. YOU may only be able to respect other cultures at a distance, but I (as most other people) have no problems with people from other cultures.
6. Not everyone is a racist. While everyone can acknowledge the difference between races and cultures, not everyone demonstrates prejudice, believes their race is superior or practices discrimination based on race.
7. You are an asshat.

I like this idiocy : "All Caucasian, all American. Why can't there be one Hmong? Why can't there be one minority in there?" Pofwmyeh Yang said. "I believe only one person can judge, and that's God. But God didn't judge today."

So, he wants non-Americans to sit on a jury, and doesn't believe in an omnipotent God.

"They didn't even give him a loaded rifle. He was all alone in that courtroom. God would have given him an assault shotgun at least."

AtomicPenguin

Minnesotans in Minneapolis/Saint Paul think everywhere outside of their urban jungle is backwater, whether it's Wisconsin or the rest of their own state.


You nailed that one. Mpls/St Paul is full of people that grew up in the sticks & are embarrased by it. So they come running to the biggst cow town in the midwest to prove that they're cosmopolitan & progressive.

From what I understand, the guy was an infantryman in a long and bloody war.

Then you don't understand.

Hey The Larch ,

You seem to be defending this murderer and condemning anyone who thinks that murder is wrong as a racist. So, if you had the power to decide the outcome of this trial, how would YOU have handled it?

AtomicPenguin

He's not representative of his culture, but he's representative of a problem with it that is probably the primary cause of contact with most of their caucasian neighbors.

Is Vang a representative of a problem as a poacher /trespassor in Minnesota?
Or is he a representative of a problem as a Hmong poacher/treapassor in Minnesota?
Or is he a representative of a problem as a Hmong person in Minnesota?

I don't seem to find any evidence to back up what you said. Please help me out.
Or you were just saying.

kr0m0z0ne:

You guys should try living in a culture where you are less than a 1% minority. The abuse, getting cold-cocked in the subway, the constant stares, the random people who come up to you and start screaming, the people who spit on you randomly. All these things happen to me with varying frequency.


This has happened to you in South Korea? (according to your bio) Seriously??

carridin1: Hey The Larch... You seem to be defending this murderer and condemning anyone who thinks that murder is wrong as a racist.

I apologize for whatever I said that you misinterpreted this way. I'll chose my words much more carefully next time, with the understanding that many people on the internet either ate lead paint chips or suffered massive head wounds as children.

blah. imo.

1) he's guilty. he might not be guilty of murder for all the deaths, but he sure as hell is guilty for murder for a good deal of them.

2) i bet the other hunters did use racial epithets and threatened him.

3) i bet there was a lot of racism involved in the trial and in the fall out of this case.