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(Reuters)   Words stung, rifles were un-slung, shots rung, hands were wrung while lawyers flung dung from their tongues, and now the Hmong had better watch his bung   (today.reuters.com) divider line 276
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9840 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Sep 2005 at 5:49 AM (8 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2005-09-17 12:10:08 PM
The Larch:

No, I feel a good deal of compassion for the childish and the backwards who project their own prejudices into any situation . . . for instance . . . . well. . . . nevermind.

;)
 
2005-09-17 12:11:53 PM
Immaculate_Misconception

If you were in the USMC, what was your MOS? If not, what country did you serve with?

There's a huge difference between shooting at a person, and equipment. A person tends to move around in unpredictable directions, and the're small as hell compared to any piece of equipment.

As far as an individual weapon being effective at 3000m, I'm calling BS right now. The bullet may be able to carry that far, but you're bordering on indirect fire. At 10,000ft, and a 2000 fps average bullet velocity, you're talking a flight time of 5 seconds. There's a whole lot of (moving) air between you and a target. Even with a fast, heavy round like a .50BMG, hitting even a stationary target at that range is damn near impossible. If you're talking about a sniper shooting at structures/equipment, it's quite feasible, but only because it presents a very large target.
 
2005-09-17 12:13:54 PM
Ditto: I can put a bullet in a quarter at 100 yards with my rifle.

Doubtful. Unless you're shooting off sandbags with a rifle that wouldn't be much fun to haul around the woods.
 
2005-09-17 12:15:42 PM
The Larch:

Hitting a man-sized target beyond 300m with open sites is difficult.

Every Marine qualifies with his/her rifle at targets out to 500m:

http://www.marines.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/0/302619F6BAB498E48525706F00619B 42?opendocument
 
2005-09-17 12:19:56 PM
Carlos Hathcock says .50BMG is the shizzle.
 
2005-09-17 12:23:19 PM
Doubtful. Unless you're shooting off sandbags with a rifle that wouldn't be much fun to haul around the woods.

Nah man. I can do it freehand, drunk, and on ludes.

/sarcasm

Of course my accuracy is going to vary depending on the shooting conditions. That should be obvious.
 
2005-09-17 12:24:19 PM
Why can't we get this kind of creativity in real headline writing? Instead newpaper writers make us suffer through "Bee Collector Stung by Criticism" or "Man Goes to Bed with Itchy Butt, Wakes Up with Stinky Finger". What's up with that?
 
2005-09-17 12:25:13 PM
mlloydm: If you were in the USMC, what was your MOS?

2336 the first time around.
2305 when I was recalled.
 
2005-09-17 12:26:31 PM
'The Larch
dangerprobe: These families deserve compassion...

So, you only feel compassion for those you believe "deserve" it? That's very interesting...'

Wow so this is what a dude on the rag looks like. Take a Midol bro.
 
2005-09-17 12:27:32 PM
 
2005-09-17 12:28:15 PM
Oh and this would have never happened if we would have given him a shrimp boat. after the hurricane. bubba gump. out.
 
2005-09-17 12:28:49 PM
The Troll's guide to posting on the Vang story...

1. Always refer to the people that were killed as racist redneck assholes, because everyone knows that people who live in Wisconsin and hunt are racist redneck assholes through and through.

2. Always assume that the people who were killed fired at Vang first, because everyone knows that racist redneck assholes love threatening people with their guns.

3. Always claim that the people who were killed must have used lots of racial epitaphs, since everyone knows that white hunters never pass up a chance to put down other races.

4. Don't believe the white hunters when they say that they didn't use any racial epitaphs, since everyone knows that racist redneck assholes always lie on the stand to cover up their racism.

5. Never bring up the fact that Vang has gotten in trouble for trespassing before, and that he clearly understands the concept of trespassing, as evidenced by the fact that he has posted "no trespassing" signs on his own property before.

6. Try to raise the idea that Vang was a traumatized soldier from Laos/Vietnam, despite the fact that he imigrated here when he was eleven.

7. Always believe all of Vang's testimony, since its only white people, and not minorities, that lie.

8. Never bring up the fact that Vang has gotten in trouble with the DNR before, and might not have liked the idea of being reported to them again.

9. Always assume that the only possible reasons Vang opened fire is either because he felt threatened, or because extreme racism made him crack, because everyone knows those are the only reasons non-whites commit crimes.
 
2005-09-17 12:29:31 PM
Didn't we get enough of this yesterday?
 
2005-09-17 12:29:56 PM
2005-09-17 11:48:10 AM knobmaker

St.Alfonzo:

Nah. He'd have been charged with poaching. Probably gone to jail, unless this was his first offense, which it wasn't.


Nonetheless, if I were on that jury I would have found him not guilty by reason of irony. I think his big mistake was letting two of them live; he would have eaten like a king all winter long with eight white men in his freezer.
 
2005-09-17 12:30:10 PM
One of the best tag lines ever. They should have an archive page for the funniest/clerverest headlines.
 
2005-09-17 12:31:31 PM
"Every Marine qualifies with his/her rifle at targets out to 500m:"

qualifying at a target range and engaging the enemy are two different things. Studies since the korean war have shown that infantry doesnt engage until targets close to 300 or so, which was one of the reasons the smaller cartridge was adopted over larger 7.62. . . . ie, the switchover from the m14 to m16. (more important to have volume than rounds that could hit at extreme ranges)

you can hit a target at 500m over open sights on a range but you're not going to hit a guy running from trench to trench until they get a little closer, maybe not even see em. most engagements are much closer.
 
2005-09-17 12:33:16 PM
Cant hit man sized targets out past 3000m? I guess the Canadians missed that memo cause one of there snipers did that a few times in A-stan
 
2005-09-17 12:36:03 PM
mlloydm:

If you're talking about a sniper shooting at structures/equipment, it's quite feasible, but only because it presents a very large target.


And that's all I was talking about.

You can call bullshiat all you like, but the equipment and people do exist.

I never claimed, nor do I believe that anyone can hit a man sized target at 3000m with conventional small arms. But equipment sized targets can be hit at tht range with some specially equiped rifles.

As far as your .50 goes, it's only really effective to about 2000m on equipment sized targets, although the round will travel much farther it loses most of it's effectiveness outside 2000m.

Oh, and hitting a quarter at 100 yards is not a miracle. Many manufacturers are producing .5 to .75 MOA rifles for under $1000 these days. I'd say such a shooting feat could be easily accomplished if the weapon, round, conditions and shooter were right for the task.
 
2005-09-17 12:37:03 PM
Father_Jack:

Sources?

And do you have personal experience shooting at people running from trench to trench ?
 
2005-09-17 12:39:09 PM
There is much differne in qualifying on a stationary target than a moving target. Besides that the biggest difference is when qualifying you are "relaxed". In real life it is pretty hard to calm yourself, control your heart beat, etc. I dont care what anyway says.
 
2005-09-17 12:39:32 PM
veedeevadeevoodee: Every Marine qualifies with his/her rifle at targets out to 500m

I'm not sure if a marine has to actually hit a single target target at 500m to qualify.

Even on the very carefully controlled conditions of a known-distance course, with high contrast, stationary targets, and several minutes to prepare each shot, it's still very difficult to hit a man sized target beyond 300m.
 
2005-09-17 12:40:00 PM
He could have "escaped" without slaughtering 6 people with 1 rifle between them... Gonna get pounded A LOT in prison... if he survives the shiv.
 
2005-09-17 12:40:24 PM
Subtle_Canary

Cant hit man sized targets out past 3000m? I guess the Canadians missed that memo cause one of there snipers did that a few times in A-stan


Yeah, with bigass .50 cal sniper rifles. With an ordinary hunting rifle, you won't.
 
2005-09-17 12:44:13 PM
Subtle_Canary: Cant hit man sized targets out past 3000m? I guess the Canadians missed that memo cause one of there snipers did that a few times in A-stan

No, they didn't.
 
2005-09-17 12:48:12 PM
The Larch:

I take it YOU have had trouble hitting targets at 300m and beyond ?
 
2005-09-17 12:52:05 PM
VEE
"And do you have personal experience shooting at people running from trench to trench ?"

nope, never served. i prefered to go on tour with a band and fark groupies. not to say i don't respect those who did/do, but the choice was rather obvious.

can't find anythign specific to link to, sorry. its a topic generally covered though in evolution of infantry tactics, the shift away from long ranged rifles like the garand and mauser that could easily hit a guy at a mile to smaller cartridge, more firepower-heavy style; its more important to be able to lay down a shiatload of fire at relatively close ranges for longer periods of time than be able to hit at longer ranges, or be able to hose an entire trench at once (i'm talking about normal infantry weapons, not specialised units or whatever like snipers).

you see this with the evolution of the stormtruppen in ww1 who did away with rifles in favor of automatic pistols and lots of handgrenades, to the introduction of the thompsen /schmeisser/bren submachine guns firing pistol ammunition, then graduating on to assault weapons which have the best combination of the long range rifle and the automatic close range advantages of the automatics.
 
2005-09-17 12:53:20 PM
This guy was an abusive ass (he beat the crap out of one of his exes).

In addition, there was another similar shooting of a hunter that was unsolved in the same region from several years ago.

He had a predisposition for violence, he may have killed in a similar fashion in the past, and he committed cold murder in this case. He also hoped he would get away with it, and he would have were it not for sheer luck. One of the family members just happened to see his tag before he left the scene.

I think justice was served here, but his family will try to argue otherwise by stirring the racial pot for a while.
 
2005-09-17 12:54:32 PM
My ex is Laotion. She had a huge temper. That is all.
 
2005-09-17 12:55:25 PM
I followed this case. You can yell racism till yer blue in the face. He was guilty.

In my personal opinion he would have shot two more if he hadn't run out of bullets.
 
2005-09-17 01:02:31 PM
forest25: I followed this case. You can yell racism till yer blue in the face. He was guilty.


He is guilty.

But that certainly doesn't negate the fact that the racism existed prior to the incident, and that the same recism has exploded since then.

I don't see why folks are posting what you have. It's as if you're saying the fact that he is a murderer somehow makes the racism ok. It does not.

And these redneck bastards who are putting "Kill a Hmong" stickers on their trucks are proving my point, that this situation has been building up for quite some time, and the hatred and ignorance of the rednecks certainly isn't helping the situation any.
 
2005-09-17 01:10:23 PM
Out of sheer curiosity, why does everyone assume racist comments were hurled? Because the guy who killed 6 people while trespassing on private property said so?

As someone on a simillar thread said yesterday, if I was a minority, and I'd just killed 6 white hunters, I'd claimed there were racists comments and that I 'feared for my life' too, even if it wasn't in the least bit true. Race Card seems to trump just about everything these days...
 
2005-09-17 01:12:08 PM
Rednecks suck. This drunk ass redneck showed up at a friends party I was at last night, got piss drunk, and then when someone walked close to him, put his hand in his pocket and screamed "YOU EVER BEEN GUTTED!" The next half an hour was spent getting him out of the party without getting someone stabbed. It was quite a night. So yea, rednecks suck ass.

/from a town where people dress up as KKK members for Halloween
 
2005-09-17 01:13:19 PM
Father Jack:

its more important to be able to lay down a shiatload of fire at relatively close ranges for longer periods of time than be able to hit at longer ranges, or be able to hose an entire trench at once

Unless its supressive fire, well-aimed single shots are much more effective than firing on full auto. For a couple of reasons: 1) When firing an M16 or M4 on full auto, its very difficult to keep the rounds on target (hence the development of the "three round burst" switch); and 2) firing on full auto depletes your available ammunition very quickly.

Machine guns, on the other hand, are effective when fired from a bipod, and REALLY effective when fired from a tripod.

Its important for an infantryman to be able to engage longer-than-normal range targets (read longer than the effective range of adversary rifles) for a simple reason: kill him before he CAN kill you.
 
2005-09-17 01:13:22 PM
Everyone -- except for white males -- is a victim.

Boo fukkin Hoo!
 
2005-09-17 01:13:45 PM
Check out Wikipedia's definition of "Hmong".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hmong

(Cut and paste you lazy SOBs)
 
2005-09-17 01:16:21 PM
This guy is a little on the younger side, but a large percentage of the older Hmong (Hmoob, whatever) males were carrying AK-47s around at the age of 13. They were helping to protect their villages from the Laotians.

Still, at 36, this guy no doubt went through some seriously harsh situations to get out of Laos and get to the US.

I worked with Hmong folks in Wisconsin, and they have some issues that most of us can't imagine.

I'm not excusing him. I'm just wondering if it's really such a great idea to let anyone without a police record to carry a gun around.
 
2005-09-17 01:17:22 PM
Well, since I'm from Wisconsin (and I just graduated from college in Rice Lake) I should probably comment on this.

When it happened, the whole town was pretty much in shock. As if blaze orange wasn't already prevalent as the choice of clothing, it became the symbol of honor for the hunters that died. In fact, our college team wore orange headbands and the local businesses made some of those magnetic ribbon thingies (orange of course) as a way of remembering them. There are definitely race issues involved--Rice Lake, Eau Claire, and the surrounding communities (the places I'm from) are predominantly white with the largest minority being Hmong. Eau Claire, a city of about 60,000 (70,000 with college students), has two very large Hmong communities. When the shootings happened, there were meetings and community events that preached racial harmony for fear of racist retaliation by residents...it wasn't fun.

Northern Wisconsin is a little backwards perhaps, but just because it's not a very economically proficient area doesn't make it a crime-infested swamp. Most of the land is owned by out-of-state vacationers and in-state farmers. Property taxes are at ridiculous levels. Not to mention that hunting is more of a culture thing than just shooting Bambi.

Now, I'm from the area of all of this, and I can honestly say that I'm glad that Vang was sentenced for murder. However, the racism issues underlying all of this has been an issue for YEARS. Even in small-town schools, we had days that were designated as Hmong Sensitivity classes because of racism in school and in the community. It's not really redneck vs. minorities...if it was just the rednecks, then it wouldn't be much of a problem.

Besides the rednecks, it's politicians, police officers, business owners, the media (my god, the media. I still do some work for the Clear Channel stations in Eau Claire and their news shows are so racially biased...)

Anyways. That's my 2 cents. Back to work I go...
 
2005-09-17 01:34:14 PM
forest25: He was guilty.

In my personal opinion he would have shot two more if he hadn't run out of bullets.


What does that have to do with racism? Yes, he was hard core. And?
 
2005-09-17 01:36:54 PM
veedeevadeevoodee: I take it YOU have had trouble hitting targets at 300m and beyond ?

This comment makes absolutely no sense. Hitting a man-sized target beyond 300m with open sites is difficult. You have even posted a link that supports that assertion.

Under very carefully controlled conditions, with nearly every factor heavily biased in the rifleman's favor, the best marksmen of the best trained and most expensive military in the world aren't expected to hit a perfect target at 500m consistently.
 
2005-09-17 01:46:27 PM
The Larch:

I thought so ...

/rests his case
 
2005-09-17 01:48:14 PM
From the Article: "Vang was called the most disgusting words that one human being can say to another. ... How is he to react to that?"

So here is a true story: Once when I was in high school a group of 6 or 7 black guys (who I had not wronged in any way) surrounded and assaulted me. They were calling me "f*ckin Whiteboy" and taunting me while slapping my face and shoving me. These guys were all bigger and older than me, so of course I felt very threatened, not to mention offended by their racism.

Obviously, the only thing to do was get my gun and kill them all. I hunted them down one by one, and shot the ones who tried to run in the back. In the midst of all this some black woman showed up in an SUV, so of course I gunned her down too, just for good measure.

Oh wait; I didnt do that "kill 'em all" part, because that would have been a TOTALLY UNJUSTIFIABLE OVER-REACTION, AND MURDER!
 
2005-09-17 01:48:26 PM
Fark Me To Tears: Everyone -- except for white males -- is a victim.

What are you talking about? Conservative Christian Republicans are always whining about how persecuted they are. They control all three branches of government, and they still cry about the liberals. They appear to have no pride.
 
2005-09-17 01:49:03 PM
Around here (which is where it happened) there is a lot of Racism against the Hmong

Which is why they bussed in a (still all white) jury from Madison. Madison being the most liberal city in the midewest. I lived in Madison and it really is quite the experience in ultra-liberal group think. Like 9 out of 10 homes had "war is not the answer" yard signs (and most still do) and hte ones that didn't got openly questioned about it.

Point is, if any city, maybe in America, was going to send "I hate those redneck hunters, and sympathize with that poor Hmong immigrant..." jurors, it is Madison.

His admitting he ran away a bit and then turned around to shoot htem in the back and that some deserved to die and others *didn't* but he shot them anyway... that's not a smart defense.
 
2005-09-17 01:50:22 PM
 
2005-09-17 01:51:40 PM
I've been following this case for a while. This poaching scumbag tries to chalk up being a murderous psychopath to "racism".

Possible connection to another murder

Hmong people are charming, really...

The nation has just seen what may be its worst-ever case of filicide, or murder of children by a parent. Khoula Her, a 24-year-old Hmong living in St. Paul, Minnesota, strangled all six of her children and left their bodies strewn through her three-bedroom apartment.

Mrs. Her was married at age 13 in a Thailand refugee camp and had her first child that year. She then moved to St. Paul, where she had frequent fights with her husband. In one 18-month period, police visited the family nearly a dozen times. The precise motive for the killing is not known but like many Hmong, Mrs. Her has not been able to adjust to life in the United States. (Jon Jeter, In Disintegration of a Marriage, Six Children are Strangled, Washington Post, Sept. 6, 1998, p. A2.)

The towns of Fresno, Merced and Stockton in the San Joaquin Valley of California are bracing for another wave of Hmong "refugees." Seventy percent of the households of the 65,000 Hmong who are already there are on welfare, and the average Hmong family has ten children. This summer another 3,000 Hmong are to be released from camps in Thailand for "family reunification" in California. Many have lived in camps all their lives. As the head of Fresno County Social Services explains, "They think rice comes from bags . . . . We're going to have a very tough time providing services to them." (New Wave of Hmong Refugees Worries Fresno, The Arizona Republic, May 27, 1996, p. A18.)

Oh, and they're polygamists too

Welcome to what happens when you let the third world and its mentality into America in the name of doing good...
 
2005-09-17 01:52:16 PM
Felgraf: Out of sheer curiosity, why does everyone assume racist comments were hurled?

Why do you assume that everyone assumes this?

Like every other place I've ever been, many people Minnesota and Wisconsin are racists farkheads. And, for many "hunters" deer season is just an excuse to go out in the woods and drink yourself silly. And, there are some jackasses who confuse stupid prank signs on a dorm-room wall like "trespassers will be shot" with the legal right to shoot at trespassers. And, certainly this trial has brought a lot of very ugly racial tension to light.

But, I'm not aware of any evidence, beyond Vang's own very suspect testimony, that racists comments were hurled, or that anyone in the hunting party had been drinking, or that anyone in the hunting party shot at Vang. Of course, I haven't been following the trial closely -- it's certainly possible that evidence was presented, and the chucklehead j-school dropouts that cover most rural trials failed to report it.

Basically, it's remotely possible that this was one justified homicide, and five unjustifiable murders. It's more likely that this was six unjustifiable murders. But regardless if Vang is a dangerous psychopath who killed five people without provocation, or six, Minnesota and Wisconsin have a lot of racists who crawled out of the woodwork for this trial. It's just sad, and I think the racism opened a lot of people's eyes to the problem.
 
2005-09-17 01:53:29 PM
So shooting an unarmed woman in the back is cool, as long as she's white, and called you names?

I love Fark!
 
2005-09-17 01:56:13 PM
frank249: World record 2,430 meters/2,657.48 yards by a Canadian sniper in Afghanistan

"The kill, one of more than 20 unofficially accredited to Canadian snipers during Operation Anaconda in Afghanistan's Shah-i-Kot Valley, beat the 35-year-old record of 2,500 yards, or 2,250 metres, set by U.S. Marine Gunnery Sgt. Carlos Hathcock in Duc Pho, South Vietnam."

Note the phrase "unofficially credited."

This is likely to be bullshiat.
 
2005-09-17 01:57:05 PM
Howard Dean's Coward Genes: This poaching scumbag tries to chalk up being a murderous psychopath to "racism".

I'll explain it to you slowly.

1) Vang is a murdering scumbag.
2) You are a racist scumbag.

Both assertions are true simultaneously. Neither contradicts the other. You are a racist scumbag, and Vang is a murdering scumbag.

Understand?
 
2005-09-17 01:57:38 PM
Immaculate Misconception

I was wondering what you were doing carrying a G3 in the USMC, but you answered my question.

I actually think we're kind of on the same page here. Hitting a man at >1000 yards is damn near impossible. With the right equipment (and a hell of a lot of training), you can really reach out there and hit *something,* but it's pretty specialized high dollar stuff.

/I have no problem shooting under 2MOA off a bench with a 40 year old Model 70 .243.
//But I still maintain shooting a sub MOA group in the field takes shiatload of skill.
 
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