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(Guardian)   American wine producers banned from using the word "Chateau" on their wines unless they can actually see a castle from their vineyard   (guardian.co.uk) divider line 330
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11842 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Sep 2005 at 10:53 AM (8 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2005-09-16 02:01:11 PM
zymurgist: Be careful what you wish for...


Touche'
 
2005-09-16 02:02:16 PM
some_wild-eyed_8-foot_tall_maniac

Take a look at:
https://www.honeywine.com/ordering/meadery_listing.asp

One is Manatawny Creek Winery - Douglassville, PA
http://www.manatawnycreekwinery.com/
 
2005-09-16 02:03:32 PM
fudgefactor7: Two words: fark Europe.


Obviously You're a peon
 
2005-09-16 02:05:28 PM
2005-09-16 01:46:01 PM Red Hot Monkey Lover

Excellent post!

About the "Chateau" thing though, can you fault the French for wanting to protect something that's a significant tradition to them? Besides, what the hell are American vintners doing putting the word "chateau" on their bottles anyway? I mean, really? Where else do you see that word in the US?

Are you in the restaurant business, by the way?
 
2005-09-16 02:05:52 PM
Sideways was a cool movie. Didn't make me want to drink wine though. I'll stick to me scotch, thanks.
 
2005-09-16 02:05:52 PM
Chateaux Lego
 
2005-09-16 02:08:48 PM
Bukharin, Red Hot Monkey Lover-

Thanks! I'll look into both suggestions. I have some friends who homebrew a Pete's Wicked clone. Maybe I can get them to try this out with me.
 
2005-09-16 02:09:47 PM
some_wild-eyed_8-foot_tall_maniac: I think it's great that you homebrew. You probably know as much about hops and grain as anyone with a commercial brewery. I also think it's great that you're interested in other things, like wine. If you know of any mead breweries (meaderies?) in the US, please let me know. I'm interested in trying something new.


To say homebrewing is a rewarding hobby is an understatement. My brother made a honey mead, had to sit for nine months, but it was ready for last Christmas.

I took one sip, went into full on berserker mode, and chopped the tannenbaum in half with a turkey cutter.
 
2005-09-16 02:11:46 PM
some_wild-eyed_8-foot_tall_maniac: Where else do you see that word in the US?


I have seen an hourly hotel called Hotel Chateau.
It's a classy joint, beleive you me.
 
2005-09-16 02:13:41 PM
maffick: Bully Hill

Fark yeah, that's some good stuff.

I still only buy cheapish wines. Not to be confused with sweet wines. *shudder* Bully Hill is great, as are most Chilean reds.

I spend most of my money on beer. Sam Adams rules them all.

/plan to drink Jack and Coke tonight at the weekly poker game
 
2005-09-16 02:15:03 PM
Slighty off topic question about Wine.

I'm heading out to dinner tonight with my girlfriend. We're going to a small BYOB and I want to take a long a bottle of wine. What's a good style to have with dinner? The hard part is that I don't know what we will be ordering for dinner. The place we are going to a European Fusion place.
 
2005-09-16 02:15:45 PM
Hebalo: Mimeograph??? Are you 90? What's wrong with "copier" or "photocopier".


Bukharin:Electrically automated xerographic printing machine?

Electric Mimeo-graphing Copyola-Automatron?
 
2005-09-16 02:17:28 PM
Well I want to see them make me stop producing my Shatow.
 
2005-09-16 02:18:16 PM
raygundan: Electric Mimeo-graphing Copyola-Automatron?

Electrically powered auto-mechanically driven paper document duplicating office table.
 
2005-09-16 02:19:19 PM
Ahh, now I know WTF those crazy folks were thinking when they built that farking castle in the middle of central Kentucky! There IS now a vineyard right next door, wouldncha know. The Fark Castle
 
2005-09-16 02:21:14 PM
I dont mind the champagne name thing or other regional names (as long as someone can still put X region style); but Chateau? Give me a freaking break. I think most of the places Ive been to in Napa have a building that would qualify as a grand estate (er chateau).

With the port thing, umm I cant recall but do Australian ports have to say Australian ports?

Anyone feeling truly wine nerdy try Lebanese wines.

/havent seen sideways
//dont know why they hate on merlot
 
2005-09-16 02:21:40 PM
some_wild-eyed_8-foot_tall_maniac: About the "Chateau" thing though, can you fault the French for wanting to protect something that's a significant tradition to them? Besides, what the hell are American vintners doing putting the word "chateau" on their bottles anyway? I mean, really? Where else do you see that word in the US?

Good call, I suppose that people could be confused and think it's a French wine. What about using "Domaine"? What about a French winemaker who moves outside France but wants to use French terminology, like Chateau du Lastname or Domaine du Lastname? (I have no idea about these questions, just throwing stuff out there!)

Are you in the restaurant business, by the way?

No, I just drink too much, if there is such a thing :-)
 
2005-09-16 02:21:46 PM
Woop Woop

/Its Australian for wine.
//not really...but a damn fine shiraz...from downunder.
///Fark Euro wines...give me some local or Aussie wines...
 
2005-09-16 02:23:48 PM
You can't grow anything in the far south or north. You can't grow much in overly humid climates due to rot. You can't grow good Cabernet on a shady northern-hemisphere north-facing slope. You can't grow good Riesling in an overly hot environment. You can't grow good Chenin in warm, overly fertile soil. Good geography matched to the proper vine is very important in making good wine.

I agree with you, to a point. But from my experience, wine growers tend to not grow the types of grapes that don't grow well, wherever they grow. For instance, in the north like Oregon you might get good Pinot and white grape types, but you'll see less reds because reds grow better in warmer climes. True, some will still try to make red wines in the north, but the winery that processes them will not be very popular and they won't have other wineries buying from their crop.

That said, you can find crappy Napa wine just as easily as you can find good Napa wine, and crappy Oregon pinot.

There are a lot of factors outside of the geography or harvest, though of course the harvest is a factor.

Right now I'm at the trial and error stage. The really good ones I'll buy a case of to save, the ones I don't like I won't. I found a great Alexander Valley Syrah, and I also found a napa wine I hated. Geography only goes so far. Restricting labels does nothing to enhance my wine experience. Maybe it'll turn more people onto wine, but my guess is it won't. It just seems like a dumb law to me.
 
2005-09-16 02:24:24 PM
French wines have been subpar for about 20 years now. Their top end stuff is consistantly good, but for everyday drinking wines, I generally prefer Australians, Chileans, or Califronia wines. And as for farking the French Wine industry, they took a boot-kick to the crotch after their post 9-11 a-holishness.

Funny how every time they get a second on the world stage, the French have to remind everyone in the planet (with the exception of mass murdering dictators) why they are so hated.
 
2005-09-16 02:24:49 PM
Check out the online Tasting Notes Database if you're interested in finding out about good wine.

I'm completely in favor of this ruling. There's too much misleading advertising in the states and little or no regulation. In Europe, when you think of a Chateau, you assume its a small family that nurtures its vineyard, and thanks to AOC regulations, many of these wineries are just that. In the states you have large mega corporations buying grapes from all over the place and mis-labelling wine. Generally speaking, the old world (France, Italy, Spain, Germany, etc) produce consistently better wine that is better regulated. There are lots of great wines coming out of the new world, such as South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Chile, etc. But in many area there isn't as many rules about how these wines are labelled.
 
2005-09-16 02:25:01 PM
Wiki Wine Article

/Free Education
 
2005-09-16 02:28:36 PM
elvindeath: And as for farking the French Wine industry, they took a boot-kick to the crotch after their post 9-11 a-holishness.

No. That did not happen to the industry.
 
2005-09-16 02:31:29 PM
alexanderplatz is the quickdraw winner. Just awesome.

Well played, sir.
 
2005-09-16 02:32:33 PM
Bukharin - it absolutely did.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=french+wine+sales+after+9%2F11
 
2005-09-16 02:33:45 PM
2005-09-16 01:01:58 PM some_wild-eyed_8-foot_tall_maniac

"Lambic" isn't technically beer, and cannot be labelled as such, because they mix fruit in with the wort.

I think "Lambic" is more of a description of where it's made, and the fact that no yeast culture is added to the wort. Gonna drink some Lindeman's Peche this weekend.
 
2005-09-16 02:33:57 PM
I'm too lazy to read all the posts, so I'm sure if this has been mentioned or not, but the French have a very specific, government-mandated wine labeling system. In fact, certain wines cannot be drank until a certain date every year. So, in this respect, I agree with this change. You shouldn't label your vintage as something it's not. Is a rose not still a rose by any other name?
 
2005-09-16 02:38:34 PM
elvindeath,

I stand corrected.
An oversupply of grapes did effect the industry, globally.
 
2005-09-16 02:45:36 PM
elvindeath: Bukharin - it absolutely did.

Well, "after 9/11" isn't "due to 9/11". People are planting everywhere and there is a huge glut of wine (globally and within France). Who drinks the most Australian wine? Australians. Who drinks the most U.S. wine? U.S.ians. Who drinks the most French wine? Frenchians. However, the per capita consumption is dropping in France, kids don't want to drink what their parents do (see Germany and beer as a similar example). For France, it means that their biggest market is shrinking. Additionally, wine is becoming "cool" worldwide but people can't be bothered with trying to remember which is Pouilly-Fuisse and which is Pouilly-Fume. People are going to reach for a varietally-labeled wine ("I like Chardonnay") from somewhere like the U.S., Australia, Chile, or South Africa. The French are a victim of wine's success, as strange as that may be.

It may be nice to think that the "France boycott" actually meant something, but how many people in the U.S. went from drink vast quantities of French wine to drinking none at all? Most people who drink French wine didn't stop, because they knew 9/11 had nothing to do with wine.

[blah blah blah blah blah]
[getting thirsty]
 
2005-09-16 02:45:47 PM
We can't really complain, after all, the US started this about 8 decades ago. At the end of Prohibition, US whiskey distillers were seeking protection from Canadian imports.

In general, Canadian whiskies were seen as good, but slightly inferior, to the best US brands. In a fair market they picked up a very decent market share as they were competitive in price to the better US brands.

US distillers got the government to pass regulations prohibiting any Canadian whiskey from being labled "straight whiskey", even if was unblended. That pretty much eliminted most of the possible competition from Canada in the rapidly growing whiskey market as any blended whiskey was considered inferior at the time. (I'm not looking for a fight on this issue, I've enjoyed both Booker Noe and Crown Royal Special Reserve. :)

Not all bourbon is from Kentucky, just Kentucky Bourbon (currently there are no active distilleries in Bourbon County, Kentucky), there are also fine bourbons from Tennessee. Tennessee is better known for sour mash whiskies though, in particular Jack Daniels.
 
2005-09-16 02:46:55 PM
Red Hot Monkey Lover: kids don't want to drink what their parents do (see Germany and beer as a similar example).

In Russia, it is hip to drink beer like a westerner.
Vodka is the beverage of your old man, or your old man's old man.
 
2005-09-16 02:47:35 PM
Kangaroo_Ralph
maffick


Bully Hill - loved the tour that I took several years ago and I still drink their wine when I'm not practicing my beer snobbery. I'm fond of the Fish Market White.
 
2005-09-16 03:00:35 PM
bdub77-

For instance, in the north like Oregon you might get good Pinot and white grape types, but you'll see less reds because reds grow better in warmer climes.

Actually, Oregon Pinot Noirs (reds) have taken many of the top honors in Burgundy-style wine competitions for the last 5-10 years.

The "terroir" of a region refers to the unique character that the soil composition and climate lend to the wines produced there, and is one of the greatest intangible qualities in all of winemaking. The fact that the term even exists should tell you that where a wine comes from is incredibly important. Take Chablis for example... it is generally considered to be one of the finest, most unique whites in the world, and has been so for the last 150 years. This is because of the specific soil composition found in Chablis (most notably its chalk content), that is present nowhere else in Europe. Spend $60-$80 on a bottle of good Chablis, and you'll taste what I'm talking about.

Also, some of the hardest grapes to grow well produce the most amazing wines when cared for. Viognier, Nebbiolo, and Pinot Noir, for example. Very few American wine makers grow Viognier, because it takes skill and placement. Chardonnay, on the other hand, will grow just about anywhere, so that's what dominated the California market for the first half of the wine explosion. Less risk.

Listen to Red Hot Monkey Lover, (s)he knows what he's talking about.
 
2005-09-16 03:02:59 PM
BrotherMaynard: I'm heading out to dinner tonight with my girlfriend. We're going to a small BYOB and I want to take a long a bottle of wine. What's a good style to have with dinner? The hard part is that I don't know what we will be ordering for dinner. The place we are going to a European Fusion place.

You're right about the hard part, it's like asking "What sauce should I put on my food" when you don't know what the food is. Gravy doesn't work on fish, but mustard kinda goes with most stuff. (Is bubbly the mustard of wine? Or do I just love the bubbles, and mustard, too much?)

Anyway: Bubbly! It goes with breakfast, it's a great appetizer before the meal and even makes a great dessert. You can't really go wrong, I say, and it adds a little extra romance to the dinner out.
 
2005-09-16 03:03:09 PM


obscure?
 
2005-09-16 03:04:29 PM
some_wild-eyed_8-foot_tall_maniac: The "terroir" of a region refers to the unique character that the soil composition and climate lend to the wines produced there, and is one of the greatest intangible qualities in all of winemaking.


Similar to Hops in beer, and to a (slightly) lesser extent, barley.
 
2005-09-16 03:05:11 PM
joecitizen-

I took one sip, went into full on berserker mode, and chopped the tannenbaum in half with a turkey cutter.

I nearly snarfed my Chateau Haute-Bernat. Bravo!
 
2005-09-16 03:06:29 PM
1 halfed tannenbaum = 2 yule logs.
 
2005-09-16 03:10:06 PM
might have to grow some grapes down by the river.


2005 ford chateau


looking for a chaaaaateau, 21 rooms but 1 will do
 
2005-09-16 03:13:38 PM
zymurgist-

You may be right re: Lambic. I love my Lindemans, and Geuze is awesome too. I always thought "lambic" was a classification, but come to think of it, I've never seen anything like it called "lambic" that wasn't Belgian. Still, can you add fruit to beer, and still call it "beer"? St. Ephemere tastes a hell of a lot like a granny smith, and Magic Hat is distinctly apricot-y. Do the fruit flavors in beer come from actual fruit? In wine they come from the grape character and fermentation compounds, but they're not nearly as pronounced.
 
2005-09-16 03:14:47 PM
some_wild-eyed_8-foot_tall_maniac

Thanks for not listening. Yes I'm aware Pinot is a red. MOST reds require warm climates to grow. It's a fact. Pinot is a bit different for a red varietal and can grow in colder climates like Oregon. I included Pinot with whites because I knew this.

I'm also aware of terroir. My argument is that while terroir is important, there are a lot of intangibles in the winemaking and wine growing process that aren't related to it. Additionally there are areas of Bordeaux in which grapes are grown where the soil and land just sucks for what they are producing. We're talking a matter of feet in some regions between what is really great and what is mediocre. Applying a region to a wine may give people a general idea of what they are getting, but it's like saying because I live on a plot of land here my wine is good. It's BS.

I give up. I'm tired of arguing about it. I don't know why I feel a need to justify my responses. Just drink your farking wine and shut up.
 
2005-09-16 03:16:16 PM
some_wild-eyed_8-foot_tall_maniac: Still, can you add fruit to beer, and still call it "beer"?


As far as I know you can, except in Germany.
Goddamn reinheitsgebot.
 
2005-09-16 03:18:50 PM
Red Hot Monkey Lover

BrotherMaynard:


Anyway: Bubbly! It goes with breakfast, it's a great appetizer before the meal and even makes a great dessert. You can't really go wrong, I say, and it adds a little extra romance to the dinner out.

I second that emotion. The only thing you can drink equally well with fish, steak, creme brulee, or all by itself.
 
2005-09-16 03:23:59 PM
some_wild-eyed_8-foot_tall_maniac,

"lambic" is like burgandy or bordeaux. It refers to a region in Belgium. Lambics can be labelled beers. Many beers have fruit added to them and are still beer. (Not in germany, but the EU has already overturned the reinheinsgebot, so there too now) Also, the best lambics have no fruit added, so that has nothing to do with the name anyway. MMMMMM...Cantillon Gueuze.
 
2005-09-16 03:24:08 PM
Red Hot Monkey Lover - actually the effect on French consumption on a post-9/11 boycott was substantial. The effect was primarily in the restaurant consumption - where the vast majority of wine is consumed in the US. Patrons refused to order it, restautants stopped ordering it, importers stopped buying it. All "due" to 9/11. I represent a rather substantial regional consortium of importers who do over $250 mil in wine sales per year - I know from speaking with them, since 9/11/2001 they reduced their French import by 25 % and have seen no pressure to reverse the decision. It was pricey to begin with ... when it became trendy to ignore it, combined with economics, it was easy for patrons to pass up. That is a demand side effect, not supply.

Combined that with the fact that the "boycott" gave US drinkers an incentive and opportunity to try many other lower-cost regional varieties (from Chile, Argentina, Australia) etc, those became the "hot buys" in the US.
 
2005-09-16 03:28:28 PM
Now realize it looks like all my lambic points have already been covered. Except for the fact the EU has thrown out the Reinheinsgebot. Woo Hoo! Saw a great article about 2 years ago about German brewers travelling the US. Visiting microbrews and stuff, trying to learn why the US micros were growing while all the german ones are going under. Anyway, they were amazed by some beer they tried only to find out it was a Belgian. They couldnt get them in Germany. Germans had to come to the US to drink Belgian beer (although there army could pick some up on the way to France).
 
2005-09-16 03:29:39 PM
s/there/their/

I hate making that mistake.

/will never confuse lose and loose
//dont know how anyone does
 
2005-09-16 03:31:41 PM
bdub77-

Dude, relax. I'm not trying to cut you down... Just trying to inform you. If you already know about everything I've mentioned, then I don't see why you can't see the benefit (to everyone) of standardizing the nomenclature across the board.

When you say stuff like this,

/Not buying French wines anymore.
//Fark em, most of them suck anyway.


that is patently ignorant, it makes me think you don't know jack about wine and might benefit from some help.

If I'm treating you like you're ignorant, it's only because you've made yourself look that way. If you don't want to talk about wine in a wine thread, leave.
 
2005-09-16 03:32:49 PM
Hey! We could build a winery next to the Castle Anthrax and market "Chateau Anthrax!!!"

/beats Chateau AAAAAAARGH!
 
2005-09-16 03:35:28 PM
some_wild-eyed_8-foot_tall_maniac

Still, can you add fruit to beer, and still call it "beer"?

Depends on what your definition of "beer" is. In my opinion, beer must contain barley malt, yeast, hops, and water. By that definition, American megabrews are beer, Belgian lambics are beer, and of course a German Helles is most definitely beer (in its purest sense, if brewed according to the Reinheitsgebot).

St. Ephemere tastes a hell of a lot like a granny smith, and Magic Hat is distinctly apricot-y. Do the fruit flavors in beer come from actual fruit?

That also depends... on whether fruit was added to the wort at any time. For Belgian lambics, Pyramid Apricot, Oxford Raspberry, fruit (or fruit puree) is added to the fermentation.

If fruit is not added to the wort, fruity flavors in beer are often a by-product of the strain of yeast added to ferment the wort. German style Weizens, for example, are known for their banana aroma and flavor. These scent/taste components come from esters, which are fermentation by-products, along with CO2 and good old ethanol, a/k/a yeast pee.

/mmmmm, yeast pee
 
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