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(Some Guy)   Transgendered evacuee arrested for showering in female shower, losing the game of lets hide the Salami (w/pic goodness)   (theeagle.com) divider line 649
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59051 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Sep 2005 at 12:39 AM (8 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2005-09-11 03:19:40 PM
1 in 14,000, not 1 in a million. So you are suggesting that if this person had the surgery before all this happened then the women in the showers would have no case to ask her to leave? Surgery is not the ultimate goal of the transgender- living as gender in which you feel comfortable can survive is the end of the line for many.

By trying as hard as she did and facing what she did, she earned her pronouns, dude.

You have to understand, if many of us on this thread, including me, were in New Orleans when the shiat hit the fan, this very thing could have happened at the emergency shelters. We have to speak out once and a while.

/just looking for a solution
 
2005-09-11 03:25:04 PM
Point is- it's an EMERGENCY shelter, not an exclusive club. We all have to makes sacrifices, all of us- when this shiat happens. I'm sure that there were a few suburbanite rednecks down there that didn't like to be packed in with those "loud, rap-music lovin' African Americans," but they had to deal. There were probably some urbanites eyeing the "mullethead cracker with the confederate flag on his shirt" suspisciously as he got some soup in front of them in line. They had to deal as well.
 
2005-09-11 03:29:50 PM
I am not judging her. I am just saying that the women at the shelter, who went through the same thing, have the same rights. The women should not be forced to shower with a penis. What about the other womens rights?
 
2005-09-11 03:31:52 PM
You can't turn this to a racial issue. All of the women in the shower were from the same area. The "locals", where not in the shower.

I guess how you see it, all of the people should use the same shower. It is an emergency is it not?
 
2005-09-11 03:36:20 PM
Again- no compromise was offered. It was either male or female showers, and they didn't want her in the women's shower- and as you pointed out, they had come from an area where people whispered about the rapes and robberies as though they might be next; and now they are telling her to use an open, all male shower.

It's understandable to see both sides, but they made no effort at all to see her side. They could have helped out.
 
2005-09-11 03:39:26 PM
I just have to share this... I enlarged the pic to try and scare my fiancee witless. Our 6 year old son walked up and, without any prompting or info, asked, "Who's he?"

How exactly does one explain transgenderism to a 6 year old?!
 
2005-09-11 03:39:54 PM
I agree with you on that. I am in Dallas, TX, and the cops in Texas are anal. If I was her, I would have backed off and tried to think of a another route to take.

That is assuming, she talked to the authorities, or who ever was in charge. If she just walked into the shower, she was infringing on the rights of the other women.
 
2005-09-11 03:42:09 PM
DeSudet,

I am sorry that you have to be in that situation, but you just proved my point.
 
2005-09-11 03:44:26 PM
In an emergency in which there is only one available shower room period- don't you think people would think differently about things? I think rational thinking would have just smoothed this problem out. Ask anyone in the military with women in their platoon about emergency thinking; gender and all that bullshiat goes right out the window when you're trying to survive.

That's not really fair in this case, because their WAS two shower rooms, but they could have had a makeshift divider for her or something. If they took her aside and said simply "I know what you're going through is hard, but the women in the shower are frightened and fragile right now, as we all are from Katrina, and we were wondering if you could wear a towel while you shower or have someone hold up a towel just so we can keep the peace. I know it's not fair, but if there is anything else we can do, please ask- you've been through a lot already..." but that didn't happen.

She was acting on conditioned behaviors. She probably went into the women's restroom without any problems hundreds of times before, and now this trauma....

It could have went better.
 
2005-09-11 03:44:26 PM
So did this latest Fark flamewar solve the issue for the world?
 
2005-09-11 03:48:24 PM
DeSudet

If you don't know how to explain it, then maybe you aren't the best person to do so, at least not without some research. People use that same article for everything the don't like. "How am I supposed to explain homosexuality? How am I supposed to explain Atheism? Think of the children!!"

And that same thing happened to me with my cousin while watching the Golden Girls back in the 80's, and proof not withstanding, Bea Arthur is a "biological" woman, so it all comes full circle.
 
2005-09-11 03:49:36 PM
/typoes abound
//deepest apologies
 
2005-09-11 03:51:24 PM
I agree, it could have been handled better, on all sides. She was the one that choose the alt lifestyle. That makes it her responsibility to make adjustments for society at large.

If she went to the people in charge and stated her problem, then what happened to her was wrong. If she just went into the shower, it is wrong and does not respect the rights of the other women. Then she should be arested.

You say that she went throught trauma, and it should be forgiven. What about someone who rapes and then states that they were horny because of the trama? Trauma does not make behavior that is unacceptable by society correct.
 
2005-09-11 03:56:39 PM
Are you suggesting that rape and bathing are similar offenses?

Yes, we have to make adjustments for the society at large, that's true. It would be selfish for ANYONE to think otherwise- as they say: When in Rome, ...kill only foriegners.

She should not have been arrested, however. She didn't commit a crime. It isn't a crime to cross-dress, and it isn't a crime to be transgendered no matter how many times you watch Silence of the Lambs.

/That guy wasn't TG anyway...
 
2005-09-11 03:58:40 PM
Hmmm... Am I the only one who finds snow9999's repeated use of the phrase "showering with a penis" extremely dirty and teh funny?
 
2005-09-11 04:02:16 PM
Don't be so vitriolic CtrlAltDelete.


I just wanted to point out that there are private showers available at Reed Arena.
We can argue the semantics about letting a person with a penis into the womens public shower all we want, but in this case, it wasn't her only option.
 
2005-09-11 04:03:05 PM
Snow999 - She was the one that choose the alt lifestyle.

Yes, I'm sure she chose to be ostracized, and treated like a freak, and to have to deal with narrow minded bigots on a daily basis. Since she "chose" to step outside of the "norm", she deserves all of the abuse correct?
 
2005-09-11 04:03:08 PM
CtrlAltDelete,

I do not have the 'Silence of the Lambs', attitude. If I walked into a womens shower anywhere and stripped down, I would be under arrest. Why can't I run around in my front yard naked. I used to do it in the country, does not cut it.


Like I said. She should have mentioned her special needs and they should have been take care of. She is a biological male. The female area is off limits. Sorry if a BIOLOGICAL MALE, does not like that, it is life.
 
2005-09-11 04:08:00 PM
dorks_

Did anyone there suggest she use the private showers? No. They arrested her. I'm sure anyone would JUMP on the opportunity for a private shower, no matter what their gender identity. I don't know a single person who prefers an open shower to a private one.
 
2005-09-11 04:08:33 PM
Xanthan,

"Bald-headed yogurt slinger" made me look at my penis and go, "Eww!"

/I think we are both too easily amused.
//Not that there's anything wrong with that...
 
2005-09-11 04:12:03 PM
Did she ever request a private shower. It was her responsibility!!!
 
2005-09-11 04:14:34 PM
snow9999, life IS more complicated than that unfortunately. I didn't choose to be this way, no one would. It's a pissy existence. Sorry about the Silence of The Lambs comment, someone had a quote in their profile, it must not have been you; but face it- most people have that movie, The Crying Game, Mrs. Doubtfire, and Hedwig and the Angry Inch to teach them about how complex gender can be, and not one of those films comes even close.

It's hard to deal with a population that want's you either dead or somewhere else, always.


The only thing we can agree on, however, is the more important issue, here at least- that things could have been done to prevent this and protect everyone involved, but it didn't happen.
 
2005-09-11 04:21:35 PM
the doubter: "tolerance" - This is the big one. If you want a conservative to listen to you, don't use this word, just don't. Conservative's don't want to "tolerate" people, they want to either change them to be more like themselves or lock them up. End of story.

"compassion" - To a conservative, usually means the same as "tolerant"


As a self identified member of the fundies. I don't think you are too far off. Tolerance is what is asked of you when someone is asking you to abandon your morals, and still not show your faith at all in the public square.

Compassion generally means giving up money without looking into what you are giving it to first.

I think you hit the nail right on the head, a lot of the probelms we have (At least in the US) span from our inabilty to even speak the same language. (On both sides)
 
2005-09-11 04:22:30 PM
Okay,

I just have to say that I think my young daughter would be damaged far less by seeing a penis than she would be by being exposed to the ubiquitous shootings and stabbings on primetime network t.v.

/Just sayin'
 
2005-09-11 04:27:56 PM
VideoVader said:

Heh, pretty much. If your DNA reads, "XY," it doesn't matter what you do to your body short of genetic restructuring; you're still a dude.


Um... well, not exactly. If you don't have any testicals, then you're definatelly not getting enough testasterone to stay male; and if you also don't have a penis, then how in the world could you be considered a male?

I thought it was sort-of a requirement that men have penii.

*shrug*

Anyway... here's a hypothetical question for you:

Situation: So you're hanging out at home, bored at 2AM watching late-night TV, and Jessica Alba shows up naked with a pizza and a six-pack of beer at your house.

The naked, pizza and beer carrying, Jessica Alba confesses that she saw your picture on Fark personals, and read your scintillating forum posts, and now she only wants one thing in the world: sex with you.

Just as you're about to do the deed, a newsflash comes on the television, announcing the news that Jessica Alba USED to be a guy, before a freak bicycle accident when she/he was 5 years old required corrective surgery.


Your Response: Do you A) continue with what you were doing, or B) kick the naked Jessica Alba out of your house while saying "ewwwww, iiiicky, yuuuuck"?

/hypothetically.
 
2005-09-11 04:28:44 PM
Repo Man: Yes, I'm sure she chose to be ostracized, and treated like a freak, and to have to deal with narrow minded bigots on a daily basis. Since she "chose" to step outside of the "norm", she deserves all of the abuse correct?

People make awful choices all the time.

If I have inclinations to be a goth, I still have to choose to walk to hot topic. The choice to deal with it is always there.
 
2005-09-11 04:33:20 PM
I cannot believe those on the board who object to Miss Thang showering with 'real' women. Better we should spend Police in Abu Gharib to make those insurgents tell us where the nuclear wessels are !
 
2005-09-11 04:35:28 PM
CtrlAltDelete

what's with the whole "world should bend over backwards to accomodate one person" attitude?

They could have suggested the private showers if she had said she was going to take a shower. She had already been warned about using the womens facility after someone had complained, and could have easilly asked for an alternative.

How can everyone else be expected to know everything about her and accomodate her without prompting when you, an obvious sterling example of open mindedness and acceptance, have made bigoted and stereotyping assumptions about the other people involved in this debacle? How were the police to know that "he" was a "she" after other women in the shower had told them there was a man in there? How were they to know she wasn't just some perv in the women's shower? They could have sat down and talked to her and worked the situation out and released her reminding her to use the private shower so as not to disturb the other women who use the public showers, but that's what the judge is for, and that's exactly what he did.


It seems you hold some personal stake in this issue of transgenderism (you, family member, friend), and I can understand that many people get a raw deal for simply being different and that you may be angry about that. But, you should thusly know better than to stereotype other people and lash out hatefully at them for their misunderstanding when you yourself do not fully understand them or their situation.
 
2005-09-11 04:37:45 PM
AFAIAC, the body is just a machine to carry your "self" around. Therefore one's mind is what determines who you are. All else is detail.

Disharmony within oneself is worse for you than disharmony with the norm. The mere existence of the different people in society is no just cause for hostility.

// Even Republicans
 
2005-09-11 04:39:41 PM
FlaminFilly: I cannot believe those on the board who object to Miss Thang showering with 'real' women. Better we should spend Police in Abu Gharib to make those insurgents tell us where the nuclear wessels are !

I can't belive any police ever try to catch theives, they could all be investigating murders.

If we didn't enforce all the laws, then we'd have people doing everything but murder.
 
2005-09-11 04:41:00 PM
Xanthan,

I don't believe that knowing what human anatomy looks like is harmful to children. I just don't.

Knowing what a penis looks like isn't gonna swiftly send a little girl straight to a life of depravity at the local whorehouse.

Dude, it's just a penis. Big whoopety-doo.
 
2005-09-11 04:41:17 PM
ClickBeetle: AFAIAC, the body is just a machine to carry your "self" around. Therefore one's mind is what determines who you are. All else is detail.

Disharmony within oneself is worse for you than disharmony with the norm. The mere existence of the different people in society is no just cause for hostility.

// Even Republicans


A man with with or without a multilated wang, walking into a girls locker room, however, justifies at least arrest. We're talking at least charges of criminal voyerism. (I hope)
 
2005-09-11 04:42:29 PM
ClickBeetle: AFAIAC, the body is just a machine to carry your "self" around. Therefore one's mind is what determines who you are. All else is detail.

There's this thing called reality that gets in the way though.
 
2005-09-11 04:43:47 PM
ClickBeetle

AFAIAC, the body is just a machine to carry your "self" around. Therefore one's mind is what determines who you are. All else is detail.

Disharmony within oneself is worse for you than disharmony with the norm. The mere existence of the different people in society is no just cause for hostility.


Wow. Very nicely said. Very true.
 
2005-09-11 04:45:34 PM
A note to the physiological vs environmental argument:

A physiological predisposition can be triggered by environmental factors, or may remain dormant if the environmental trigger isn't present.

/we're just a chemical soup baby!
//'pologies to the fundies.

B.
 
2005-09-11 04:52:26 PM
Disposable Rob said:

ClickBeetle: AFAIAC, the body is just a machine to carry your "self" around. Therefore one's mind is what determines who you are. All else is detail.

There's this thing called reality that gets in the way though.

Close your eyes. Think about things.

THAT is who you are.

You're not your job, you're not your alma mater, you're not the clothes you wear, you're not the car you drive, you're not the accent you speak with, and you're not who your ancestors were.

You're *you*... the you that exists when you close your eyes and think.

If anyone tells you differently, then they're either mistaken, or trying to sell you something.
 
2005-09-11 04:58:36 PM
General Zang: There's this thing called reality that gets in the way though.

Close your eyes. Think about things.

THAT is who you are.

You're not your job, you're not your alma mater, you're not the clothes you wear, you're not the car you drive, you're not the accent you speak with, and you're not who your ancestors were.


You're not your job. You're not how much money you have in the bank. You're not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet. You're not your farking khakis. You're the all-singing, all-dancing c*** of the world.

Do not talk about fight club! =D

But seriously, if I'm me when I closemy eyes, than it doesn't matter what bits I have, so I shouldn't go cutting them up?
 
2005-09-11 04:59:36 PM
 
2005-09-11 05:07:53 PM
General Zang

If I'm not mistaken you've managed to (possibly inadvertently) reference both Fight Club and The Princess Bride in one post. Amazing.

/Golf clap

Oracle of Bandwidth

If we assume that this person REALLY does believe she is/should have been a woman, and AS A WOMAN she is heterosexual (in other words, this person is a transexual who likes dudes), is it REALLY her intent to be a voyeur by going into the female locker room? And if we assume that was not her intent, is criminal voyeurism the appropriate charge in this matter?

BTW, thanks for the insight from a fundamentalist on my post. I used to be a born-again Christian, so it's easier for me to see "both sides" than some, but these days I still don't feel like we're getting anywhere other than namecalling. Oh well, what can you do.

I guess you should be tolerant and strive for peace, love, and understanding. You know, be compassionate. ;-)
 
2005-09-11 05:15:20 PM
We now have found the trans crew.. I wonder if the same people that defend choice of what ever would jump to the aid of petterasses?
He is lucky most of the women in the shower weren't from Tx. or he would have had his farking arse kicked then too.
/thank God for freaks-No need for the fair
//just sayin'
 
2005-09-11 05:17:58 PM
the doubter said:

General Zang

If I'm not mistaken you've managed to (possibly inadvertently) reference both Fight Club and The Princess Bride in one post. Amazing.

/Golf clap


You have it backwards.

Both Fight Club and The Princess Bride referenced underlying truths about Human existence.

I was actually referencing well-known tenets of Buddhist philosophy, which predate the making of both movies by a few thousand years.

:)
 
2005-09-11 05:26:38 PM
the doubter

If you consider, as a Christian, the tenets of Buddhism to be too obscure a reference, then you can find the same core concept also discussed in the bible.

There are passages in the bible which describe the faithfull departing their bodies, and ascending to heaven.

Which begs the question: If the bodies are left behind, then what exactly is supposed to be ascending to heaven?

Or as a 20th-century philosopher said (can't remember who):

You don't have a soul. You ARE a soul. What you have is a body.

Like I said... close your eyes and think. THAT's who you are.
 
2005-09-11 05:42:00 PM
To the awesome person who just bought me a TotalFark account, you get free oral on your next visit to Radford University.
 
2005-09-11 05:44:25 PM
2005-09-11 04:08:00 PM - CtrlAltDelete [TotalFark]

Did anyone there suggest she use the private showers? No. They arrested her.

No, they told him not to do it again after someone complained. He did anyway. Then he was arrested.

I'm sure anyone would JUMP on the opportunity for a private shower, no matter what their gender identity. I don't know a single person who prefers an open shower to a private one.
Someone who wears a T-shirt with "SEXY" written across it in sequins?

The "I don't know a single person" argument doesn't cut the mustard. I don't know a single transgendered person, does that mean you don't exist and have been role-playing this whole thread?

The availability of private showers destroys the whole "there was NOTHING ELSE SHE COULD DO" argument. I no longer have any sympathy or empathy for HIM.
 
2005-09-11 06:05:29 PM
Arpollo?
 
2005-09-11 06:17:09 PM
Someone on this board, who was not there, said there are private showers available.

Nowhere in the article did it say that she was offered the opportunity to use them. She was arrested, even after the oficers on the scene figured out what was going on.

Nowhere does it say there are private showers available for those squeemish about bathing with others.

The "well, now your arguments are meaningless because we have deduced that an alternative option was available that HE did not take..." statement is wrong. (You unbelievable bastards. Have a heart at least when it comes to pronouns. Why so much hatred toward us?)


You cannot imagine what it would be like for her to go through something as horrible as Gender Dysphoria, then go through Katrina, then the evacuation of her area, and end up somewhere else, somewhere unfamiliar- and have to ask someone who looks like everyone else who has ever called her a faggot that she needs "a private shower," even if she knew the facilities had them, which none of us know for sure if the availability of such showers was advertised.

She was told to use the male showers instead.

She can't do that.

Compromise should have been made. We keep repeating the same things to each other and I don't think anyone reading our posts really understands anything better from all this.
 
2005-09-11 06:36:35 PM
Okay, people. I'm a transgendered seventeen-year-old who's basically in the closet and probably won't ever get a sex change, despite my misery. Just to throw my hat into the ring:

If a highly skilled neurologist was able to put my brain into Jessica Alba's body, would that make me a man or a woman?

Chew on that.
 
2005-09-11 06:43:20 PM
Ctrl-Alt-Delete
You're labelling of people with polar and sometimes valid viewpoints as, "kid" is contradictiary to your stanpoint on public acceptance and tolerance. Answer a prejudice with another prejudice, way to go.

We also seem to be working on the assumption that no-one cared that he/she slipped into the shower, that is evidenced by the arrest. Someone obviously took offense and reported it.
 
2005-09-11 06:49:31 PM
mondo bizarro.
about like females guarding male prisoners and males guarding female prisoners.
and w bush getting re-elected.
 
2005-09-11 06:53:18 PM
Perspicuous

No, dude. I just have a difficult time believing someone that calls someone else a slut for agreeing to be in the showers with a transgendered person is older than... say, 15?

If you have a valid point, so be it, I'll try to counter. But if you're just going to repeat the same hate message over and over again that we don't have rights, what else am I suppose to think?

I don't doubt someone cared that she was in there; I read the article. People have been murdered in this country for being transgendered, I'm not naive about the world.


I'm sorry if that comes across as hostility, and not frustration.
 
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