skinink

Butterface. Heh.

I'm thinking more along the lines of butterpenis, actually.

You're in a shower with women who haven't washed in a week. What's more, those women have been living in grim conditions with no proper toilets nor toiletries. Finally, the women in the shower are the full range of everyday folks, not just internet hotties.

If a penis is the scariest thing can you see, you are fortunate!

Yeah, unfortunately the proponents of one of those vices often take it upon themselves to "fix" everyone else's vice.

Heh, pretty much. If your DNA reads, "XY," it doesn't matter what you do to your body short of genetic restructuring; you're still a dude.

This sort of idiocy reminds me of the people who get all worked up about the word "fish" being used to refer to whales, simply because whales are mammals. News flash, whales were "fish" long, long before there was the concept of "mammals".

There's no conflict except on the technical level, and if you're resorting to the technical level to push your views regarding how another person wants to be regarded, there's something drastically wrong with your sense of decency.

I live in the town in question. This town is very conservative, and because I've lived here for quite a while now, I thought I'd shed some light on why it seems like CtrlAltDelete, hanna, et al. or having so much trouble even making a dent in Xantham Gum's view. Keep in mind that what I'm about to say is pretty much a generalization, not all conservatives share these views.

In a conservative's mind, there are certain words and phrases that more progressive people use that make that conservative think "LIBERAL!!" and automatically dismiss whatever is being argued.

So, CtrlAltDelete and PlatinumDragon before you, one of the reasons you're not getting anywhere is the language you're using, to wit...

"xed people" (e.g. of course, "transgendered people"): this just sounds dumb because (a) many conservatives don't believe there is such a thing (and no amount of arguing will convince them otherwise), and (b) because the x is usually a politically correct term, which brings me to...

any politically correct term: Obviously, which terms are politically correct is somewhat relative, but to a conservative "they know one when they hear one". Examples: "transgendered", "differently abled", "penised individual". Two reasons conservatives hate these terms are (a) they think you shouldn't invent new words when existing ones will do, and if existing ones have negative connotations, who cares, you should get over yourself and stop being offended and (b) because, at least where I live, we always hear wacky stories on the radio about how some progressive school somewhere is banning some word and replacing it with a sterile and banal phrase. I agree with this last one by the way, it's incredibly dumb and has done more to hurt the progressive agenda than just about anything I'd wager.

Any of the following words will also make a conservative's mind light up with flashing "LIBERAL!" alarms bells and sirens. While you're reading this, keep in mind that these words set off alarm bells not only because of the connotations and disagreements about how the world is, but because they just "sound" liberal, and that's enough to make many a conservative stop listenting (again, not all, but I do live in the Bible Belt, so....):

"tolerance" - This is the big one. If you want a conservative to listen to you, don't use this word, just don't. Conservative's don't want to "tolerate" people, they want to either change them to be more like themselves or lock them up. End of story.

"compassion" - To a conservative, usually means the same as "tolerant"

"understanding" - Usually conservatives have a problem with this term because (a) they see it as one of the ultimate liberal weasel words, (b) it reminds them of hippies and "peace, love, and understanding", (c) because, again it reminds them of "tolerance", and (d) don't try to make a Conservative "understand" that (e.g.) transgendered people are really the opposite gender inside because they think it's complete bullshiat and therefore feel there's nothing to understand.

"accepting" - not only because it (again) reminds them of tolerance, but because to Conservatives some things just aren't acceptable. Homosexuality, for example, is simply unacceptable to many conservatives and that's the end of it. It would be like asking someone to be "accepting" of Hitler's penchant for murdering Jews, i.e. unreasonable and wrong (see "relative", below).

"human", "humanity" - Because Conservatives don't buy into the idea that just because someone else is "human", they should be tolerated or treated with compassion, and also because many Conservatives are Christian and to them, "humanity" is in a fallen state rife with sin and evil. Therefore you evoke no positive emotions when you use the word "humanity".

"who identify as" - To most Conservatives, people are what they are. It just makes no sense "to identify as" something that, to a Conservative, you're clearly not.

"gendered" or "gender" as different from "sex" - to many Conservatives, there is no such thing. People are either Boys or Girls, boys and girls, and that's the end of it. Oh, you think people act like boys or girls because of social upbringing? Not so, says the (especially christian) conservative. Maybe a little bit, but mostly it's because God made them this way (obviously doesn't apply to Xantham Gum if he's an Atheist).

"relative" - another big one. To a Conservative, the mast majority of things aren't relative and that's the end of it. It is an objective fact that I'm a guy and you're a girl, that really is the best society on earth, that certain acts and people are evil, and that this is the way the world is. There isn't much you can do to argue this point with a conservative, since it's (for many, at least) a core component of the Conservative world view. If you're in an argument with a Conservative and your argument hinges on the relativity of something, unless you manage to change one of your opponent's fundamental beliefs (unlikely, which why most arguments are futile), consider the argument lost.

"studies have shown that" - First, if it's not obvious, many conservatives are strongly anti-intellectual. This is not to say that Conservatives don't think or can't be intelligent, but they do believe that the academic environment contributes little to the real world and is more often than not dangerous to good capitalistic Christians everwhere (c.f. creationsim vs. evolution). In addition, "there are lies, damn lies, and statistics," meaning that many people (not just Conservatives) don't buy into studies anyway.

So there you have it in a nutshell. There's more I could say, but in being around conservatives for a long time (and actually becoming one in some areas) you sort of get the feel for the position. If you're reading this and thinking, "man, I could never argue with one of these people, it would be futile", you're right (especially when arguing about the surface issues). The only way to really argue with a Conservative (or a Liberal, for that matter), is to get them to enumerate their very core beliefs and perceptions about the way the world "really is" and get them to reexamine that, which will be somewhat difficult considering many religious conservatives actively consider their core beliefs to be articles of faith and entirely out of the purview of rational argument.

In other words, these flamewars are mostly futile, but highly-entertaining.

HellFace

What if "she" had a raging hard on? I'm sure it happens even if you are not attracted to women. Sometimes it's just like 'Whoa' and it's there...

Are you serious?

This is the equivalent of saying "But what if a heterosexual man went into a men's shower, and got a raging hard on? I'm sure it happens even if you are not attracted to men. Sometimes it's just like 'Whoa' and it's there...".

VideoVader: Heh, pretty much. If your DNA reads, "XY," it doesn't matter what you do to your body short of genetic restructuring; you're still a dude.


Fact is that there exists so much genetic variety that XY females and XX males exist. and while most of these 'intersexed' individuals die in the womb, some survive to birth and later to adulthood.

I'm sure the defensive liberal farkers would have been more than happy to let it bathe with their daughter/wife/girlfriend/sister,erect wang and all.Hell it's homeless,invite it to stay at your house. Got a name and location.

SuperDuper28

You better start sweating those crypto men innocuously called LESBIANS! They're out to flick yer daughters bean.

Nature isn't decided by vote. There WILL be variations, even in gender.

Except that these 'variations' are called 'defects'.

/just saying

Mommy ? Why is that girls package bigger then Daddy's ??
/ Put a helmet on that noodle soldier !!

Slackfumasta: Except that these 'variations' are called 'defects'.

Depends on your point of view. Monkeys that can't climb very well and walk erect are "defects", too.

So what if it is a "defect"?

Does that make us any less human, or any less worth of basic human respect?

This is a question that has been asked by many groups of people over the years.

The answer should always be "no", but it seems we pay in blood to get there.

/At least we usually get there...

the doubter That was very well done! Even if you ctrl+c'd it, I applaud the effort - If that is an original work, it should be in the preface to The Daily Show's next book.

The only problem that I see is that it doesn't cover the problem of conservatives taking on issues that are way beyond the realm of what the bible says, and then going back to the bible as the root of their argument. The bible does not deal with many of these modern day issues directly, so it is mostly the steering of religious leaders that lead people to their opinions. If we want to, we can name dozens of examples of conservative rhetoric that are only loosly tied to the bible - if at all.

I consider myself a Catholic with a proper (in a 1990s sense) upbringing. The bible as I know it teaches tolorence, love and an effort to bring peace and tranquility to earth (not in the way Nixon talked about when he was talking to the astronauts but I love the meaning behind the phrase - obscure?). Being a faithful person myself, I find it quite easy to squelch these arguments with a simple, "I understand the bible and I think that it is a 'leap of faith' and a misrepresentation of God's word to make such a conclusion - HERETIC!" (leave out the "heretic!" if the topic is in any way important)

doubter
In other words, these flamewars are mostly futile, but highly-entertaining.

I enjoyed reading your post. You provided an interesting angle. The conservative mindset that disturbs me the most, is the utter lack of acknowledgement that even those who are not like them, have civil rights. Many, not all, but many conservatives will adamantly deny that they feel this way; but their actions always give them away.

My rule of thumb is

If you can't get it up, you are not a man.
If you can't put it in, you are not a woman.

ONce again this is whats wrong with democrats and hippies... they want to "humor" every delusional fantasy these freak like sickos want .. the only reason to be a trannie is to fool dudes into farking you ... cutting off your dick does not make you produce estrogen... it doesnt make you a woman ..no matter how much you pay or want it

the doubter

Thanks man. I now know for certain that nearly all staunch conservatives are primitive, intolerant, borderline socially inept fools who fear the progression of our species. It's like the whole conservative populace has the mindset of a group of young American Eagles who don't want to leave their nest (the nest symbolizing the constitution, the mother eagle symbolizing God or Jesus or something.)

/People who can't embrace new ideas should be shot.(not really)
//Tame the "enemy", don't waste energy trying to kill it
///If you want a workout, read a book or go to a gym.
////Last slash, I promise.

coitophonic

He he, living up to your bio , I see. Add ignorant to that too.

doubter wins. Hands down.

I think this is a very important point: if you're going to talk with someone like he describes, you have to put it in terms they understand.

This is obviously not a transgendered person and never will be for the simple reason it would severely cut into his cash flow. In the immortal words of an L.A. vice cop in an article about the vice division published in the LA Times a few months ago, "It never ceases to amaze me how many men want to get a blow job from a woman who owns a penis." I'm sure he makes a living in his "sexy" shirt working boys town, which is the east end of Bourbon St., and gets tourist johns whose standard line is "just had a couple of drinks, got lost and really officer I had no idea it was a man" while the wife is off seeing Oak Alley or taking some Cajun cooking class or a garden district house tour. Fortunately the NOPD is very understanding and a simple contribution to the "widows and orphans fund" probably takes care of the situation in most cases. And also allows the officers to retire early as we just saw. If you don't believe he's a homosexual whore then what do you think he does for a living, brain surgery, nuclear physics?

As for comfort level of the showerer being the determining factor then why not allow heterosexual men to shower in the women's shower to be more "comfortable" and by "comfortable" I mean sporting a raging hard on like Arod holding his bat at the plate. If some of the women aren't happy with that situation then maybe they need to examine their prejudices and get some counseling or something because like the judge said, no criminal intent, no crime.

If Arpollo believed with every fibre of her being that she was Napoleon, would she be allowed to use the Emperors Only shower?

- Ok, I'll get back under my bridge.

VideoVader

Gender ain't quite that simple; you can be born a woman and be XY... In fact you're not even restricted to XX and XY, XO and XYY (probably others too) also exist.

Actual gender is influenced but not controlled by the sex chromosomes. Jamie Lee Curtis is (allegedly) XY, was born a woman due to androgen insensitivity syndrome.

lemming mark
Jamie Lee Curtis is (allegedly) XY, was born a woman due to androgen insensitivity syndrome.


...and a fantabulous set of legs:)
Sorry, my lesboness is showing.

buttercock

johnNJ and others

Thanks for the compliments. Although I did write that myself, I didn't just pull it out of the blue. I work and live around ultra-conservatives every day (and also some ultra liberals, college towns tend to attract the dichotomy). I consider myself somewhat of a moderate but I really enjoy listening to and participating in arguments between these two groups. After a while I found it interesting that everyone seemed to be arguing in circles and I kind of came up with this idea is that the reason is they are both standing on two separate islands but think they're both on the same continent, if you catch my drift.

Plus, I'm frustrated with progressives in America because they have excellent points of view (most of the time) but don't seem to be making a dent in "mainstream" public consciousness. Part of the reason I think is that, to your everyday football watching American (disclaimer: I, too, love Football) when liberals speak it sounds whiny, sissy, and intellectually pompous all at the same time. For example, try listening to NPR for 3 hours and then try listening to a conservative radio host (such as Rush, Laura, or Dan Patrick) for a few hours and see which one is more entertaining (even if you don't agree with anything they say).

A big part of influencing the public sphere is careful choice of language, tone, and anecdotes. This is something that progressives and the academic elite need to learn, or I feel they will forever be marginalized, ridiculed, and even burned in effegy (c.f Ann Coulter) by the mainstream, regardless of the actual merit of the arguments.

/End only marginally coherent rant, it's Sunday morning and I'm groggy

neoconBimbo:

My rule of thumb is

If you can't get it up, you are not a man.
If you can't put it in, you are not a woman.

That's not a thumb. If the ones you have been dealing with resemble thumbs, that may be part of the problem.

transgendered people make me laugh.

This person has a mental problem, not a physical one that can be corrected surgically. What they need is to get some serious counseling rather than surgery.

Better yet, someone this screwed up .might just want to consider killing themself; seriously

$100 says the 16 y/o 'transgendered' cousin just dresses up. There is no Dr. in the US who would do boobs for a minor knowing full well that he might be cured from teh ghey.

What's wrong with cracking jokes about transexuals? I'm gay and love gay jokes--in fact most of the gay guys I know love them. There's actually a whole Dallas gay site that has a gay jokes section! While I appreciate that people are trying to be nice and (ugh) "tolerant," but come on, lighten up.

What do you call a gay bar with no chairs?

A fruit stand.

Where is Rei nowadays, anyway?

/old fogey

BobC

Yeah, I love hearing a good lesbian joke.
/
me lesbo of course

doubter,

I absolutely do not find right-wing talk shows "more entertaining". They make me very, very angry. I think they might be more *attractive* because they are so black-and-white oriented. It's a lot easier to just think that people deserve what they get then to live in a gray area where sometimes, shiat just happens to good people for no reason.

by black-and-white, of course, I mean all or nothing thinking, not race.

Transgendered people are weird.

That being said, I wouldn't be offended if I saw one in a public shower. I might even ask him how he hides it in his pants. Tape? Gauze?

There's nothing wrong with being weird, or finding something to be weird.

There's a LOT wrong with overreacting to it.

What I love is all of these weenie hiders with open minds find that it is just fine to make fun of and belittle fat people who might be fat but aren't pretending to be a sex that they arent.

the doubter Good point on the delivery part at the end. I find that if you say anything with a smile on your face it will be well recieved (until it sinks in and often too late to refute).

I believe that education alone can help people listen to arguments even if they are presented in a boring manner. When I sit in finance class my teacher is boring (cute but boring) but I accept her as being expert in her field and that I will need the information she gives me to 1. learn the subject matter (not just "learn the textbook" like many poor teachers promote) and 2. do well at a job.

It is the case where many History professors will ask, "why are you listening to me?" or "why do you believe *my* version of history?" It is simply to hammer home the point that there is no one historical "truth" - only different perceptions of the Truth. Two people may see the same accident (even from the same angle) but often have very different sets of facts to offer to what the police will report as being the "truth" of what happened. Not to get into ethical imperialsm vs. cultural relativism but these differences relate almost directly to ethical study as well.

If you write everyone off as ignorent before they even start talking, you are just going to weed people out by the strength of their voice and the style of their hair. If you throw away all prejudice and, if only for a second, accept someone as expert and assume that they have given thought to what they are saying, you will go through life absorbing a much wider spectrum of information - you can filter out the BS later.

I'm_a_moran

Better yet, someone this screwed up .might just want to consider killing themself; seriously

Sadly, many do. The suicide rate for folks in that situation is pretty high.

Smeegle--here ya go:

Q: How can you tell if a lesbian is butch?
A: She kick starts her vibrator and rolls her own tampons.

nonmerci T.F.

If you don't post nude pics for all of us to see, your argument that men should be able to shower with women (and see them naked) makes you a raging hypocrite.

If you wanty to convince us that the freak should use the communal shower with the chicks and they have no right to privacy the only way to prove you are not a troll is to snatch some fotos of your snap and post 'em.

I'm waiting for those pics.

BobC

:)
That shiat is funny.
My mind is not remembering any good ones yet. Still early.

WelakaWombat

Let me get this straight, you are angry at transexuals that belittle fat people? I would think that is only a small subset of the "belittling fat people" problem and that it would probably be more productive to take on the large scale offenders first.

Overweight individuals should start with a rally at the local Burger King (the triple whopper is back!) and protest their local Saladworks or Whole Foods store for belittling their appetities. That made me giggle writing it - just so everyone knows I'm 10 lbs. above the weight on the chart at the doctors office and I thought about going for a triple whopper just to see how much I could handle.

Ok, since the article didn't seem to present much information on the other side, I will fill in as much as I can.

I work for the University Police. I was working when Vicks was arrested. I was not the arresting officer, but I would say I know him well enough to consider him relatively openminded for this town.

Bryan/College Station is a very conservative, republican town. Bush is like a god to these people. It's scary for a bleeding heart liberal like myself, but it's a great place to raise my family. Crime is low and there are good schools.

Anyway, when the evacuees arrived they stayed in Reed Arena, which is the university's basketball arena. The night before Vicks was arrested he was found in the ladies room as there were complaints from some of the other women evacuees. She was asked to leave once they discovered she was a pre-op transgendered person. They asked that she not use the female showers.

The next night she was discovered there again after more complaints. Since she had been warned before, she was arrested. Do I believe the charges were necessarily justified? No. Do I believe the officers had to do something and simply asking her not to use that shower facility wasn't working? Yes.

Knowing the officers that were working that night the way I do, I believe that had she asked them and made arrangements with them, accommodations could have been made for her.

I am glad the DA dropped the charges, though.

I myself am not fat and could go for that tripple. My point was that if isn't your issue then it doesn't matter. Everyone has issues but you lose your credit in IMHO when you start to slay others that have nothing to do with the topic.

/Loves fat chicks
//Girlfriend in the high 200s
///Soft sweet fun

Sorry, did I miss where we decided that the rights of one transexual were more important than those of however many other women?

Wait a minute. Can I ask a question here? How in the hell can anyone be FUNNY while trying to cater to the most nuerotic and overly sensitive amongst us? This is exactly why comedies aren't funny anymore! Everyone's walking on eggshells and trying to be so innoffensive to every species out there! Transexuals shouldn't crack jokes about fat people? Why not? If you're fat, have a sense of humor about it! Walking on eggshells NEVER brings one group closer to another. We've become a nation of humorless crybabies.

What's the first thing a woman does when she gets out of the battered women's shelter?

The dishes if she's smart!

Insert hysterical melodramatic feminist cliches now!

But CreamFilling, she's SEX-AAAY

can I ask a question here.. a serious question:

How much are we supposed to tolerate and/or accept?

People should really stop attempting to link this issue to social conservatism. I cannot believe how many people have tried so far to parallel trans* with homosexuality in a conversation that is clearly referencing gender identity.

There are two 'male to female' post op transexuals that I know personally. I do not identify them as female. Mutilating your penis, or as Platinum put it, "taking the time to undergo proper surgery and treatment," does not a new gender make. I understand that these individuals have a persistent psychological discomfort with their gender, and feel that they identify more closely with that of their opposite. There is no reason, however, to assume that this perceived disparity between their "mental gender" and "physical gender" necessitates that their "mental gender" is their "actual gender." Any facet of your self-identity can be psychologically reconstructed. Example?

While some have brushed off Weefle's cat example as irrelevent, I also happen to know many individuals who firmly believe that they are not human. They have, since adolescence, firmly believed that they are in actuality cats, wolves, dragons, or elves trapped within a human body. What they perceive as characteristics of those other creatures permeates their mannerisms, and you'll often find them taking on the characteristics of cats, wolves, etc. They feel severe emotional discomfort, for example, when faced with the reality that they do not have a functional tail, or their wings are mysteriously absent.

Gender identity is just that - Identity. Of course there will be instances in which one is genetically predisposed to more than one gender. Male to Female transexuals, however, do not fall into this category. The phenomenon is strictly psychological.

So no, I don't think that men who undergo cosmetic surgery to make themselves look female are of the female gender. Even if they strongly believe that they are female and identify emotionally with the western cultural meme of the female gender role. I also don't believe that CatMan is really a cat, or that any of my aquaintances are cats, wolves, dragons, and elves. I do believe that there are complexities of the human psychology that make false conceptions of self identity commonplace.

I'm not homophobic either, let alone conservative. What the hell this has to do with homosexuality I haven't the foggiest.