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(   Gravastars vie to replace black holes in theory. Rosanne Barr cited as possible example.   ( divider line
    More: Cool  
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3541 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Apr 2002 at 7:57 PM (15 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»

50 Comments     (+0 »)
2002-04-24 03:52:18 PM  
Good lord, she hasn't been "Barr" since before Tom Arnold
2002-04-24 05:26:46 PM  
Well, Rberry, that info about Roseanne got sucked into the gravastar! "The 'actress' formerly known as Roseanne Barr."

That's a pretty awesome article, and pretty well written. Take that, [image from too old to be available]!
2002-04-24 07:11:14 PM  
Holy evil popups batman.
2002-04-24 08:00:11 PM  
speaking of popups, whats with the flash ad?

IGN here we come!
2002-04-24 08:03:41 PM  
Cool illustration![image from too old to be available]
(Yes, I read it as well!)
2002-04-24 08:04:46 PM  
reminds me of The Blob...
2002-04-24 08:05:46 PM  
I wonder if the gravstar theory can explain the absurd number of popups that the site spawned
2002-04-24 08:05:54 PM  
"In further news Microsoft renamed itself MicroGravistarSoft and is poised to purchase AOL/Time Warner to give an example for the Gravistar theory."
2002-04-24 08:06:50 PM  
DAMN YOU! you took that cosmiverse link and labeled it "" to get me to click on it! bastards!
2002-04-24 08:07:42 PM  
"nything that became trapped by its intense gravity and smashed into it would be obliterated and then assimilated into the shell of the gravastar,"
Adds to my Microsoft crack further up...
2002-04-24 08:08:39 PM  
Schmack: It is
2002-04-24 08:11:29 PM  
Damn, I thought the headline said, "Gravitar"...
[image from too old to be available]
2002-04-24 08:12:34 PM  
What kinda penny ante, amateur crap is this? I'll believe it when I see it in Cosmiverse.
2002-04-24 08:13:06 PM  
"Science of the gaps"
2002-04-24 08:14:03 PM  
My Gravistar is pretty sweet

[image from too old to be available]
2002-04-24 08:14:27 PM  
Not saying that this article is untrue, it just reminds me of that criticism theists are accused of "God of the gaps"
2002-04-24 08:17:20 PM  
"Mottola and Mazur have taken their extreme idea to a mentally dizzying new level: The say our entire universe may be the interior of a giant gravastar."

Ooooh-kay. Please, stretch your theories as far as possible...
2002-04-24 08:21:34 PM  
"Mottola and Mazur have taken their extreme idea to a mentally dizzying new level: The say our entire universe may be the interior of a giant gravastar."

I'm glad I wasn't high when i read that..
2002-04-24 08:22:44 PM  
Fooshnik: Sorry about the double quote post
2002-04-24 08:28:08 PM  
This is a repeat from a couple of weeks ago, and it was on Cosmiverse.

I don't see why gravastars would be any more valid than blackholes. I'll wait and see.
2002-04-24 08:33:39 PM  
Alt-explode"Mottola and Mazur have taken their extreme idea to a mentally dizzying new level: The say our entire universe may be the interior of a giant gravastar."

dude, i'm high and i think my brain may be the interior of a giant gravastar
2002-04-24 08:34:26 PM  
When do we get to the "folding space" and/or the "worm hole" discoveries?! (I would like to get off of this rock.)
2002-04-24 08:42:49 PM  
I like the gravastar idea. Because on the other hand we have a wide round opening that spins into nothing. Just does not seem right.
2002-04-24 08:44:35 PM  
When a neutron star forms, the electrons and protons of the atoms are forced into contact(neutrons). This is supposedly the densest form of matter possible. This new theory posits some imaginary ultra-matter that's on the one hand a super thin 'shell' and on the other some sort of 'void' inside. This theory seems more like a mathematical exercise than anything potentially real.

Yeah, like I know...
2002-04-24 09:00:22 PM  
It's not Astrophysics, it's!
2002-04-24 09:04:29 PM  
04-24-02 08:34:26 PM LawnJockey
When do we get to the "folding space" and/or the "worm hole" discoveries?! (I would like to get off of this rock.)

So you play Earth and Beyond as well? (MMORPG space game in beta, has both Fold Space AND Wormhole!) BTW, EB kicks ass!
2002-04-24 09:28:05 PM  
>04-24-02 08:21:34 PM Alt-explode
>"Mottola and Mazur have taken their extreme idea to a >mentally dizzying new level: The say our entire universe >may be the interior of a giant gravastar."
>I'm glad I wasn't high when i read that..

lol, I was high when i I read that... it tripped me out for a minute, too.
2002-04-24 09:32:49 PM  
Reading this thread makes me want to get high.
2002-04-24 09:35:29 PM  
04-24-02 09:16:37 PM Usnafoster04
I don't like the idea. Anyone care to elaborate on the "black hole problem" of entropy and all that? Didn't science already decide that at the Big Bang all matter was compressed to a point? Why can't that happen in black holes?

oh no... that just tripped me out too... who knows? mebbe thats how one of these things forms? a star explodes and shedes its states (whatever that means, i just read it in the article). then it collapses back in on itself to a single point, like you said happened in the big bang, could also be how these new gravistars go through their matter phase change- like water into ice- to make this new matter, denser than what was previously known before to create their super-shell thingy.

then, to get all tripped about it, say thats exactly how these things form, and that is how the big bang started- and we actually are inside a gravistar...

yes, im high. no, i have no idea what im talking about- kinda. but it sort-of makes sense?
2002-04-24 09:42:19 PM  
I thought it was going to be a story about gynecologists that keep disappearing right after a scheduled appointment from Roseanne Barr.
2002-04-24 09:49:58 PM  
My theory is that inside black holes is an inverse universe. Where time flows backwards, which seems forward there, and instead of everything converging on a point all the matter is coming from a point, and beer sucks.
2002-04-24 10:09:11 PM  
Bats are orange in the negative world.
2002-04-24 10:17:01 PM  
That is true, and humans use sonar to fly around!
2002-04-24 10:22:47 PM  
...and also, weed increases your short-term memory and everyone uses Macs.
2002-04-24 10:52:11 PM  
ha ha, Slayerswine, that was wrong, but funny!
2002-04-24 11:31:16 PM  
What is being this "Rosanne Barr"?
2002-04-24 11:33:41 PM  
Is this anything like "Dark Star Orchestra"?
2002-04-25 12:32:48 AM  
This thread took a great turn for the goofy, starting with SLAYERSWINE's post. I can't match y'all, so I'll just tip my hat and chuckle away!

Oh man, Onion, that Dark Star Orchestra is coming to town and I can't go!
2002-04-25 01:16:07 AM  
As an out-of-work physicist who does not do drugs, this article+thread made me realize that drug users are my people.
2002-04-25 01:33:17 AM  
04-25-02 01:16:07 AM Brb
As an out-of-work physicist who does not do drugs, this article+thread made me realize that drug users are my people.

Does that mean I could be a physicist?

I'm rather surprised that you wouldn't "do drugs" (pot's not a drug- but thats another thread) being a physicist... I would think they would go hand-in-hand, much the same way as 90% of techs are stoners. unless, of course, they do go togeher, and you're in the 10%.... hmmmm.....
2002-04-25 01:44:14 AM  
I tried pot, it just made me sick.
I tried drinking, and immediately became an alcoholic.
I wanted to try LSD, I thought it'd be great for my perspective, but then found out that anything I could actually get ahold of would be probably be some farked up shiat cocktail.

So now I don't do anything but think and get fatter. B(
2002-04-25 02:35:49 AM  
This was very, very fascinating. I mean, imagine the possibility of such an object existing. I'm no astrophysicist, but I can still find this intriguing.

Imagine if we really were inside a large gravastar... a universe within a universe, potentially inside another universe, and so on...

Probably a stretch, but completely dizzying, and completely... just... nifty.
2002-04-25 03:43:00 AM  
04-24-02 09:16:37 PM Usnafoster04
I don't like the idea. Anyone care to elaborate on the "black hole problem" of entropy and all that?

The 'problem' with black holes having entropy is that physical entropy implies a physical temperature. If black holes are in contact with radiant energy they will absorb some of it but will not let it escape, as nothing can escape a black hole, blah blah. If they are hotter than space (most likely), the absorption of energy will lead to a decrease of entropy, which breaks the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

All this really means is that Stephen Hawking had to do some fancy mathematics to explain that black holes do allow energy to escape, conserving the Second Law. See the "Black Holes Ain't So Black" chapter of A Brief History for more.

Almost done...

So if this has been worked out, what's the big deal? Well, essentially, gravastars simplify a lot of these 'problems' while still possessing similar outward physical characteristics to black holes. Occam's Razor dictates you should go with the gravastar hypothesis. Problem is that gravastars are new, while black holes are long studied, so there could be any number of facts that don't match up. Also, both of these hypotheses exist in highly-theoretical mathematics but are, by their nature, pretty hard to experiment on, so it's possible that we'll never know for sure.

Mmmm, brain go melt now... think baaaad...
2002-04-25 06:52:23 AM  
Gravastars, the new Black Hole 7.0. So easy to be sucked in and crushed into an infinitesimally small point, no wonder it's #1!
2002-04-25 08:33:54 AM  
This theory, if accepted, will screw up 40 years of science fiction writing (you know someone's working on a story set near a gravastar right now). Larry Niven will have to give back his Nebula award. Also, "gravastar" sounds corny, like something you'd have for breakfast in a kosher restaurant. "Black hole" is much cooler. The theory calls for yet another new kind of matter. Things should be getting simpler (more "unified") in physics, not more complicated.

On aesthetic grounds, I reject gravastars.
2002-04-25 09:45:46 AM  
This is about as idiotic as that canadian professor who last year said that light was slowing down. In fact, it is such a stupid theory that I expect it to be fitted into the standard model within 5 years.

I can see the first logical objection, spin.

Any one know why?
2002-04-25 03:43:30 PM  
I don't like the idea. Anyone care to elaborate on the "black hole problem" of entropy and all that?

I think the "black hole entropy" problem that they are referring to is not the one that Dr.Ron is referring to (which was "solved" since black holes emit radiation, as stated above), but actually is related to the idea of "holography". The main thrust of this idea is that the universe could be a hologram. Instead of having 3 spatial dimensions, there are only 2. In other words, all the information in our 3-d world is actually contained on the 2-d boundary of our world.
Black holes are at the crux of why this idea is probably right (in some way we don't yet understand).

Here's the proof of holography: (fact) Black holes have entropy that scales as the area of the black hole (area = 2-d). Now start with any system, your mom, for example. Now throw a bunch of matter at your mom until she (and all the crap you threw at her) collapse into a black hole. The second law of thermodynamics says that the entropy of your mom's system had to increase, but then it became a black hole, so it scales as the area of your mom, therefore her entropy must have scaled at most as her area before she became a black hole. This fact doesn't jive with any theory we have in physics, we normally think the entropy should scale as the volume of the space. Hence the "black hole entropy" problem.

If you have a solution to this, let me know, I'd love to get a PhD in this crap!

2002-04-25 04:08:37 PM  

Take a look at what happens to the dimensionality of the black hole at the event horizon. You have 3 dimensions becoming 2 and a half and the half dimension gets very stretched. It is the old joke about a string that is longer on one end becoming real.

Of course, what I have just said may not be accepted science, I always tell people that because anyone who listens to me generally will lose a letter grade or so in class.

This is the first I have heard of a holographic theory, it would seem to require one big ass laser projector. . .
2002-04-25 07:21:59 PM  
Is it not possible that a black hole, currently theorized as being a star that has collapsed upon itself after its nuclear fuel is spent, be colder? The force of gravity itself really screws up the GUT attempts, as admitted by Hawking. Gravity may have nothing to do with the traditional spectra that involve our measure of heat.

If its energy is emitted in the radio spectrum in addition to the gravity (if you assume it is in the same 'force' structure as other energy), then the light waves and other matter captured by the 'hole only contribute to additional gravity or increased radio waves.

Awfully late and I have a headache, please help make sense of this stuff. I will check in tomorrow.
2002-04-25 07:55:57 PM  

The ring singularity at the center may be considered cold, as, aside from the rotation I don't think it moves much.

Hawking radiation is emitted slightly above the event horizon, other types of radiation due to the infall of matter comes about as bits and pieces go spinning into the magnetic field, this is synchrotron radiation, and does not involve stuff that has fallen into the hole.

If we could manufacture a very small black hole (hopefully on mars, or someplace further away) we might be able to electrically charge it enough to produce a split event horizon and see (why?) the naked singularity.

Laboratories are currently trying to make micro-black holes, when they succeed we may find all of our questions answered at once.
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