Jesus BAAAD
Darwin GOOOOOD

I thought such a liberal state would be more open-minded to such ideas. Isn't liberalism about open-mindedness?

n00bletSo you are suggesting the universe created itsself?

Umm, you must have skipped the last part of my post, but that's ok, gives something to argue about, no?

It's like this: I can't say, but YOU can't either. Faith schmaith. I just say "I don't know" when it comes to the origins of the universe, and look to science to explain what is knowable. IMNSHO to say that God(tm) created all this and THAT'S THAT is just ignorance.

" "Every respectable scientist believes people cause global warming"."

I've seen evidence that suggests the Earth is coming out of an ice age. Nothing like THE Ice Age that came shortly after or during the extinction of the dinosaurs, but an ice age nonetheless. This same evidence suggests that ice age cycles are a natural part of the earth's cycle.

/Of course, I learned this from someone with a doctorate in climatology, so, they probably don't know shiat.

Poke one out and let me know how your range of vision and depth perception are.

Cause just covering one wouldn't be scientific enough?

"It's not Science if it doesnt HURT!"

-----------
ID = incompetent design

ZAZ
If the numbers are forms of life, we've got much bigger gaps than an integer. The small gaps are what evolution explains best. It's easy to show why the jaw structures of squirrels are different on the east and west side of the Cascades. Evolution has not, to my knowledge, demonstrated a convincing set of minor changes following or remaining close to local maxima of fitness that bridge the gaps between major classes of animal.

The evidence for the evolution of raptor to bird disagrees with this statement.

If there were an Intelligent Designer, we'd have the strength of gorillas, the eyes of eagles, the ears of a cat, the immune system of a rat and the balance of a monkey.

peachykeen: they had one guy on there who said "Every respectable scientist believes people cause global warming". Yeah that sounds like a reliable statement. Did they show anyone with a counterview? Hell no, it's PBS.

It's PBS, not Exxon. They probably don't have the funding to pay a scientist to pretend he doesn't believe in global warming.

hdhale: By stating they have defective minds you are in fact looking down on Christians, intentionally or unintentionally.


I'm not. It's just the way people are, and this gullibility just leads to belief in whatever is already dominant in your culture or social group. There are lots of gullible non-Christians too. I expect I hold false beliefs too.

On the contrary, knowing the basics of how we got here has reinforced my faith...and made me realize just how precious this planet is, and how special we are. Ours is a rare gift.


What do you mean by this? Are you saying evolution reinforced you belief in something that isn't required to explain our presence?

I think there are universal truths that can be gleaned from all religious experience. As for Jesus, I don't think his appearance where and when he appeared was mere chance. God on Earth? That's another question and a debate that is worthy of its own thread.

I think all religions tell us something about the human mind's desire to make up false explanations, not about the nature of the universe.

Presumably God wants us to be grateful for being here. I am. As to how to express that...

But your mention of Jesus seems to imply that you believe in the evil Christian idea of a god that tortures anyone who doesn't worship Jesus. I find the idea of an all-powerful being that demands woirship laughable.

as an aside I'd like to say that you come across as a good guy. I just think you're mistaken in your world-view.

You know why Fundies are trying to push ID lately? It's because the world didn't end. The 4 Horsemen didn't show up, the angels didn't pour out their vials, nothing, nada, zilch. (I recall seeing full-page newspaper ads explaings why Jesus MUST return in 1996. Then 1998.)

No, the big finish didn't come with the new century... so they began to think it was a good idea to push ID. Gee whiz, ya gotta do something...

/they're being fundamentally dishonest.

Um think of the poor kids! Those poor babies! We must protect the children from the BAD morally corrupt California School system making sound judgments against promoting cult beliefs! We raised these kids to feel entitled and we must at all costs keep them feeling special, better than all those lowly sinners, better than kids that actually learned something!

They'll have to go to one of those southern Christian colleges and we all know what a total ghetto those campuses are.

hdhale:

Sorry about the misplaced italics. I accidentally posted instead of previewing.

Why do cons hate science?

Hey cons, science isn't a religion. Why do you people keep holding back progress?

n00blet:

Nowhere in the bible is there any morality asserted that benefits the "shamans".

I guess the whole bit about Temple sacrifices (which the shamans get to eat) and giving 10% of your income to the shamans is just good old-fashioned universal morality, eh?

If there were an Intelligent Designer, we'd have the strength of gorillas, the eyes of eagles, the ears of a cat, the immune system of a rat and the balance of a monkey.

...and the libido of a giant panda.

/Of course, I learned this from someone with a doctorate in climatology, so, they probably don't know shiat.


I'll bet you have't talked to this person lately.

Easy solution to the problem...

Send all of those kids to Bob Jones University.

If the textbooks from there are good enough to learn from, why not complete the journey? They should all be able to breeze by the entrance exam.

Well, if your claim is that he is powerful, then taking 14.5 billion years to complete your creation would be a big dent to that claim."

Once again, you are assuming that time matters to a being who is infinite. I can't imagine that I would care whether I read a book today or in 500 years if I knew I would be around for that time.

"One would have to question why a perfect, non-created, eternal being would desire anything at all."

That's a perfectly valid question, but an answer to that one would require me to be said perfect eternal being to understand the why of it.

"I can't say, but YOU can't either."

Correct. So don't bash people who have a differing opinion then yours. I don't recall you bashing specifically, but many others do regularly on this topic.

atlanta_ufo

Yeah, I've always thought that our efforts would be better spent coming up with solutions than trying to lay the blame. I don't see why it's necessary to prove that humans are causing global warming to come up with alternative fuels, etc. Seems like there would be an economic benefit regardless, but I don't work at the macro level of science. The problem seems to be that people don't want or have the time to pay attention to the scientific details to come to a reasoned conclusion. Instead they rely on the talking heads on TV or at rallies or whatever to reach a conclusion. Of course, this is where science education comes in and why it's so important to keep crap like ID out of schools.

Lispin'Liberal
I thought such a liberal state would be more open-minded to such ideas. Isn't liberalism about open-mindedness?

I don't think any student has been denied entry because they've been taught both Evolution and creationism. They're talking about minimum requirements--a school is always free to exceed them.

Y'know, I'm 5'10" and weigh 215, but I don't really fault the San Antonio Spurs for being 'too close-minded' to sign me to a contract.

Evolution has not, to my knowledge, demonstrated a convincing set of minor changes following or remaining close to local maxima of fitness that bridge the gaps between major classes of animal.

Fitness depends on the environment: the geographical, genetic, and ecological environment. One way that big changes happen is when the measure of fitness changes. A population clustered around a local maximum might suddenly find itself on a slope, forcing it to evolve towards nearby maxima. Or a population might remain clustered around a local maximum while that maximum moves around due to changes in the environment.

The poor persecuted Christards. After only 2000 years of cramming asinine crap down everyone else's throats, they are now being told to sit down and STFU.

How unfair. Tsk tsk tsk. I'm going to cry.

RandomExcess: But, I hope we can both agree that we have no use for [. . .] Anti-{insert ethnic, racial, gender-expression, sexual orientation Descriptor} anybodies.

Ah, okay. Please understand that doesn't come off from your previous post - it appears to be knee-jerk labeling/generalizing. Further, "anti-American" doesn't seem to fit. Liberals, conservatives, and everyone in-between just value different things about America, and want to preserve them.

It is only people who want major changes that can honestly be considered anti-American, and this exists on both sides. "Conservatives" who want to destroy the first amendment, and "liberals" pushing for socialism.

That's not to say that I am against all change, just that I support education and open debate. Major changes may be made in light of enlightenment.

ImJustaTroll
And everyone who thinks this is a good thing, you are all misinformed asshats.

The only misinformed asshats are those that belive in ID.

Mr_Smartypants
...and the libido of a giant panda.

Why do you hate sex? Male pandas get jiggy once a decade. Cripes, I'd love to be a panda, They'd feed me the tenderest bamboo all day and parade nubile females in front of me JUST IN CASE I get aroused enough to half-heartedly throw it in her.

/Hell, if there were an ID we'd be born pregnant. Like tribbles.

Torc
Y'know, I'm 5'10" and weigh 215, but I don't really fault the San Antonio Spurs for being 'too close-minded' to sign me to a contract.

Try the Sacremento Kings... Relevent to this post and there is a chance they could use ya!

Torc

Are you saying they're only excluding students who learned only ID? If that's the case, I agree. From what it looks like, they don't want any mention of creationism anywhere in the student's past cirriculum.

Yeah, I've always thought that our efforts would be better spent coming up with solutions than trying to lay the blame.

The solution will be intimately related to the cause. If we find out we're causing it, then we'll stop doing what we're doing (ideally). Otherwise, the're no point on throwing the breaks on the economy if it's not going to make a difference.

"I guess the whole bit about Temple sacrifices (which the shamans get to eat) and giving 10% of your income to the shamans is just good old-fashioned universal morality, eh?"

The Priests had a role that took up a large portion of their time. I would hope that there was a method for them to eat and income to survive on.

"If there were an Intelligent Designer, we'd have the strength of gorillas, the eyes of eagles, the ears of a cat, the immune system of a rat and the balance of a monkey."

A key part of intelligent design is the word design. This supposes some sort of plan. This plan just might include more than just the mechanics of biology. This plan just might rely on certain weaknesses of the human in order to work fully. God wants people to rely on him, and giving people a body that was all powerful and mighty would probably make it quite difficult to convince someone of his weakness and need for a savior.

Why do you hate sex? Male pandas get jiggy once a decade. Cripes, I'd love to be a panda, They'd feed me the tenderest bamboo all day and parade nubile females in front of me JUST IN CASE I get aroused enough to half-heartedly throw it in her.

overpopulation.

Yay, California does something right for once!

RandomExcess
Try the Sacremento Kings... Relevent to this post and there is a chance they could use ya!

That's exactly why I didn't type them, or Golden State.

/had to

Torc

So you're mad at Exxon for using the same strategy as PBS while extolling the virtues of PBS? How's this, I don't receive ANY funding from ANYBODY so you should trust what I say right? I also don't take a stance one way or the other on whether humans cause global warming because there's not significant evidence to come to a good conclusion. It sure looks like the globe is warming up but is it our fault? We aren't sure. Does this mean we shouldn't try to come up with alternative fuels? I hope not because I'll be working on that pretty soon and I'd sure like to have a job.

peachykeen: What no one seems to get is that you can be Christian AND hate the IDers/Creationists for trying to push that crap into science class.


I don't think most people are saying this. I know lots of Christians that no longer believe the Christian creation myth, but somehow still believe that Jesus died for the sins of a mythical Adam and Eve. I think the fundies are thinking more clearly within the framework of their religion, but that the whole religion is just based on the myths of our more-superstitious ancestors.


What they also don't get is that people really don't like it when farkers try to say ALL Christians are ID-heads and ONLY Christians are against true science.

Very few people say this. Most modern Christians push back their religious beliefs when they conflict with the world. It takes a really crazy Christian to push back whatever knowledge conflicts with their myths. I propose the term "Christard" to differentate the information-resistant Christians from the more rational ones.

Lispin'Liberal:

Are you saying they're only excluding students who learned only ID? If that's the case, I agree. From what it looks like, they don't want any mention of creationism anywhere in the student's past cirriculum.

The article is not about them excluding anyone. It's about them not accrediting fake science classes as real science classes.

ZoeNekros
That's not to say that I am against all change, just that I support education and open debate. Major changes may be made in light of enlightenment.

So, I will bet you think that as few as 41 senators should be allowed to filibuster to halt the momentum of the Federal Goverenment.

This plan just might rely on certain weaknesses of the human in order to work fully.

Well, that's a pretty crap plan, isn't it?

God wants people to rely on him, and giving people a body that was all powerful and mighty would probably make it quite difficult to convince someone of his weakness and need for a savior.


So God boobytrapped our bodies so we'd be DEPENDENT on him?
Dumb. Why not give us perfect bodies so that we don't NEED him, so that we would come to him only out of love, not dependence?

Torc

Yea, the warriors, that is who I meant! Sorry for the insult, SAC fans, my bad!

RandomExcess: Do those broad generalizations ever get you into trouble?


Show me one genuine god, and I'll revise that opinion.

Everyone read Code_Archeologist's post.

n00blet: This same evidence suggests that ice age cycles are a natural part of the earth's cycle.

Yes. The earth is warming. Scientists disagree on the best way to measure that warming, they disagree on the best way to model that warming, and they disagree on the level of effect human activity is having on that warming.

However, absolutely no-one seems to disagree that the world is getting warmer, and human activity is at least partially responsible.

Of course, if you ask Tom Cruise, the observed warming might be 5% from human economic activity and 95% from the body thetans jumping back into their valcanos and being set on fire. We can solve global warming by taking more vitamins, I think.

The Larch

It sure looks like the globe is getting warmer. There's lots of evidence for that. Now, do we know that WE're causing it? Well there's evidence for and against it. Yeah, the levy broke in New Orleans, but does that mean a group of guys went out there and beat that sucker down?(couldn't think of a better analogy at the moment). It's ironic that you say that I think that facts are really opinions. I'm sticking with the scientific evidence. You seem to have the opposite problem: turning opinions into facts.

n00blet:

The Priests had a role that took up a large portion of their time. I would hope that there was a method for them to eat and income to survive on.

Yes, they had a very demanding role dreaming up and enforcing rules that allowed them to eat and earn money off the labors of others.

On a side note, download farkit or cite the person's name when you're responding - it's very hard to find your responses without that.

A key part of intelligent design is the word design. This supposes some sort of plan. This plan just might include more than just the mechanics of biology. This plan just might rely on certain weaknesses of the human in order to work fully. God wants people to rely on him, and giving people a body that was all powerful and mighty would probably make it quite difficult to convince someone of his weakness and need for a savior.

That's a beautiful example of double-speak. Anything at all is evidence of your Creator, because whatever exists exists by his design. Tautologically. If we are perfect, it is proof that God wanted us to be perfect. If we are imperfect, it is proof that God wanted us to be imperfect. Please give some evidence, any evidence at all, that a God exists, that he is the Judaic God of Abraham, and that this world is of his design and not, say, Zeus' or Ifni's.

I think the admins get off on greenlighting ID articles. These threads are so formulaic that you could make a script to do it.

fiver:

abiogenesis I think is the correct term for the science of the origin of life.

I think you missed something. Abiogenesis is a word. It means: we think it sprung up from primordial soup, but can't repeat the process in any scientific way at all.

It is the theory that life came from non-living things. It is about as scientifically proven as creationism... you know, not at all.

Perhaps I'm being incorrect in my phrasing.

What I was trying to say is the field of trying to understand the origin of life is "abiogenesis" not evolution.

As for it being a science, or a scientific field, I don't know enough about it, and it's probably too young a field for anyone to say for sure. I do know that cooking stuff in a test tube has gotten a lot of weird chemistry going. But getting from chemistry to weird organic soup is a lot easier than getting from weird organic soup to independant formation of life.

The only job that creationism is actually helpful is political pundit and preacher. As opposed to teaching evolution, where a solid understanding can actually get you a job.

"Well, that's a pretty crap plan, isn't it?"
"Why not give us perfect bodies so that we don't NEED him, so that we would come to him only out of love, not dependence?"

I'm not saying that's the plan. I'm saying that there is more to look at than biology in the framework of creationism.