vowell1055:

Here's a question: Who is "pushing ID" on you? Is anyone seriously demanding that you believe in ID?

They do if your class uses one of the disqualified text books.

no other book or belief has influenced human culture as much as the Bible and christianity. Obviously we wouldn't want the children to be exposed to either.

Will all the monkey people please put their heads under the sand.....now!

Smallberries: The mods are creationists.

Well, Drew is from Kentucky, right?

Smallberries: Evolution is an observation.

I'm sure you went back and "observed" the whole evolution of life from a single cell.

It doesn't matter that it may happen that way now (And I personally do not know any Christians who belive that creatures don't change to suit their envorionment.), What makes you think thats how life started?

hdhale

So now all Electrical Engineers must believe in Evolution. Interesting, but forgive me if I disagree with your apparent assertion.

Personally I don't care what you think, and neither does the UC system. And neither of us says you have to "believe in Evolution" to do anything, you just can't have been put through a program consisting only of pseudo-science and call yourself 'edumacated.' Don't like it? Feel free to go to Oral Roberts.

The intent of the little example you gave was a lame attempt to say 'Christians are persecuted! They wouldn't do this to Hindus!' Yes, they would. Religion isn't the point: it's your educational and scientific background that's the issue. Believe whatever you want, but if you want to go to an institute of higher learning, don't expect your arcane superstitions to be viewed as intellectually valid.

C'mon guys...I expect better from Farkers then this.

This is clear discrimination. They are not blocking admission of anyone that went to school on a Native American reservation where they teach traditional Native American spiritualism. They are not blocking students that go to Islamic schools. What about Hebrew schools? What about students that go to black Muslim schools? How about students that come from India and have beliefs in the thousands of deities there?

This is pointed directly at Christians. Disagree with them if you want, but this is clearly singling out one group for discrimination. That is wrong. If you're going to ban one group based on religion, then you're going to have to ban them all. That is not a can of worms we want to open. Is it?

fritton: Proud to be Californian. Keep your obsolete religion out of science.

As soon as you pull your hand out of my wallet.

ZAZ:

are there really schools out there who don't teach evolution in science class?

Like I wrote, I don't remember evolution being taught evolution in mine. I'm sure they didn't teach creationism. But in an introductory biology course there is a lot of other ground to cover. Is evolution more important than photosynthesis or mitochondria?

>>>My son's biology teacher said, what with all the other things they had to cover, he would probably go light on evolution because "everybody has a pretty good understanding of that." But then he was one of those teachers who came from an applied field, and apparently spent too much time with other scientists, who don't really spend much time debating the existence of the subject matter they use everyday to find cures for horrid diseases.

ChaosEnsues:

Let the students themselves decide, as long as they've seen both sides in an unbiased manner.

>>>I think it's been mentioned elsewhere, but once you open the door to faith-based arguments, there aren't TWO sides, there are an infinite number.
The point that's often missed is that evolution (like gravity) is a fact. The way it works is theoretical. There is plenty of debate to be had there, without resorting to supernatural entities.

Let me open my previous post up to include Judaism, Islam, Hinduism and all of the various -isms that prevail in the Middle East/Asia.

They are all lovely stories that help us make sense of the world and feel like we belong. But someday we just won't need them any more.

/fingers crossed

I agree with jonny_q. The evidence for evolution should obviously be tought, but its limits and flaws should be addressed as well.

/Second year UCLA student

I love my mostly blue state. :)

Isn't this discrimination based on Religion?


no, it's discrimination based on science. That's the role of the admissions board. They are charged with determining if the entering students have the requisite education and skills the school expects.

The schools were told in advance that these textbooks produced by Bob Jones University were not up to their standards.


evolution models are at the core of many current fields of study. Most science and technology work these days is not advanced by inserting "and then a miracle happens" into the formula.

07:03:49 PM hdhale
For me the only possible explanation is God. As for the events that follow, it's just a question of how involved God has been in the mechanics.

That's not science though, that's personal belief.

I can believe in past lives and reincarnation, and using that I can go back and construct evidence to support that. At the end of the day it's untestable and a matter of faith.

The University of California is a business, don't forget.

Their decision will either be supported by corporations who hire their students for UoC's excellent scientific standards, or their decision will be punished by students who spend tuition money elsewhere.

Oracle of Bandwidth: As soon as you pull your hand out of my wallet.

Given that the Red states tend to take more from the federal coffers while the Blue states pay in, maybe we should be saying that to you instead.

Oracle of Bandwidth:

It doesn't matter that it may happen that way now (And I personally do not know any Christians who belive that creatures don't change to suit their envorionment.), What makes you think thats how life started?

Abiogenesis deals with the origin of life. The observation of evolution is only possible when looking at living systems. In otherwords to observe evolution you need life.

BTW creatures don't change to suit their environment, or rather if they do thats a behavior, not evolution. Evolution can not occur in one lifetime.

Just to get rid of the semantic shenanigans this debate always regurgitates, I present a handy guide to the use of the word "theory"

Definition as understood in theology:
a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation (example: conjecture)

Definition as actually used in science:
The general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an art (example: music theory)

You will please note that the "theory of evolution" is not in fact meant as the "guess about evolution", it is the "body of evidence understood as fact that makes the case for evolution."

Science examines evidence and forms a hypothesis based on the evidence. If the hypothesis does not fit the evidence, the hypothesis must be discarded/changed. The evidence available suggests evolution.

Religion forms a hypothesis and does cartwheels until the evidence fits that hypothesis. If the evidence does not fit the hypothesis, the evidence must be discarded/changed. If you look at the evidence selectively, you can pretend it suggests creative design.

You are free to reconcile how evidence conflicts with your faith as you wish, and teach your child accordingly, but the university is well within their rights to give them an "F" if they try to use it as an answer on a science test.

lostcat: They are all lovely stories that help us make sense of the world and feel like we belong. But someday we just won't need them any more.

Just wait until the next dark age, people will beg for all kinds of crazy religion.

Oh yeah, after reading the article I take back my first "thank god" statement. Sounds like the UC system is making the assumption that anyone who had to "read" these textbooks actually believed them and wasn't snickering behind their teacher's back. What they should do is require these students to take a scientific reasoning test. If they can pass it they sucessfully dodged the bullet that is creationism. If they fail they should have to enroll in remedial science classes at the university.

Or just call them dumbasses, whatever.


BTW- Anyone know what facebook is? Apparantly I must have left some inflamatory comment on there somewhere (or maybe it's because I'm in the group against fundamentalist christians), and while I was typing this response I got a long email from someone at my school saying I'm closed minded and the truth is out there. Weird coincidence, huh?

RichieXP: I'm not one of those mathematicians who spend their lives trying to define what '1' is.

The Chicago Bears win total?

But no. I'd like to see critically thinking questions such as this in a science class.

[Proof that intelligent discourse can be seen in Fark threads about evolution vs. creationism]

Good stuff. Good stuff.

2005-08-30 07:02:43 PM RichieXP

It's not a flamewar until someone Godwins. :P

Everyone knows Hitler is in charge of admissions at UC.

peachykeen: Here's a message to those of you picking on the Christians:
-other religions are guilty of non-scientific beliefs and forcing those beliefs on others. So are atheists and many non-religious groups (scientologists anyone?) You making fun of the Christians only makes the rest of us who are trying to keep ID and false teaching out of the classroom look like a bunch of a$$holes. You are doing harm and no good. Go back to your mom's basement.

I think you miss the point. I haven't noticed that Farkers single out christians for ridicule. We seem to mock ANY irrational beliefs. Why shouldn't anyone who thinks their imaginary friend made the world, or blew up aliens in volcanos, not be mocked?

If you have an imaginary friend, you should keep it to yourself.

If you feel the need to obey your imaginary friend, I'd recommend therapy.

If you think everyone should obey your imaginary friend, please sit down and shut up. You're not going to make the world better.

smallberries

I would say that in that class you are to know about the theory of ID enough to pass the test. You are not required to believe it. I don't buy into a lot of the crap I was taught in Intro to Psychology. Still made an A. Besides how can anyone claim they're entire scientific education is invalid because of this one topic?

I totally agree that ID should not be taught in a science class. It's religion, not science. But this is zealotry of an equal nature, and is ridiculous. There is no reason to exclude these students based on their education with regards to this one basic topic.

Oracle of Bandwidth:

fritton: Proud to be Californian. Keep your obsolete religion out of science.

As soon as you pull your hand out of my wallet.

California gives more money to the Fed's, with less back, than any other state.

/It's why we are blue.

Jesus farking Christ. Some of you tards are actually claiming that there is evidence supporting creationism. Did you get dropped on your heads when you were infants?

JohnBigBootay

Nice theory you got there Fiver. Let's discuss that on Sunday - not in the science classroom. the entire ID theory is nothing but supposition.

So, you're saying that the origin of life is not a worthy question to be tackled by science, because it seems like a really difficult one? Don't sound like a very dedicated scientist. I thought there were still lots of people cooking primodial soup around the world's science classrooms.


RichieXP

I do believe in the evolution process though. I don't see how this is a problem. I can differentiate between all 3 areas.

I don't perceive there to be a problem, I though we were in agreement. They are not mutually exclusive theories, and lie on either (timeline) side of the origin of life.

To be a grammar nazi or to not be a grammar nazi...

ummm, here's some free advice - if you're bothered by people not following your personal interpretation of modern english on online message boards, your time would most likely be better spent reading some Joyce, then writing grammar nazi letters to his editor instead. Grammer nazi's are as annoying as closed minded people, and just as pointless.

mistergecko:

BTW- Anyone know what facebook is? Apparantly I must have left some inflamatory comment on there somewhere (or maybe it's because I'm in the group against fundamentalist christians), and while I was typing this response I got a long email from someone at my school saying I'm closed minded and the truth is out there. Weird coincidence, huh?

Sounds more like you disparaged the possibility of extraterrestrial life and/or UFOs.

madcat033:

The evidence for evolution should obviously be tought, but its limits and flaws should be addressed as well.

I have no problem with this, as there are definitely places where the models aren't perfect and more work needs to be done. The same is true in cosmology - the models are a pretty good fit to the data in a lot of ways, but it's not perfect, and it's important that ALL of that be taught.

However, by no stretch of the imagination do these imperfections put creationism/ID on an equal footing as a scientific explanation for these observed phenomena.

Bobthefacist

i see where you're coming from. and i can't believe that nobody corrected my mistake about 'high school''. i guess i just got so pissed at Calvary Chapel ... but yeah i still enjoy seeing them eat shiat.

This is clear discrimination. They are not blocking admission of anyone that went to school on a Native American reservation where they teach traditional Native American spiritualism. They are not blocking students that go to Islamic schools. What about Hebrew schools? What about students that go to black Muslim schools? How about students that come from India and have beliefs in the thousands of deities there?



no, this is not clear like that at all.

unlike all those other relgious or spiritual oriented schools, THESE schools used their own versions of science textbooks. The poorer and more marginalized private schools just rely on standard science textbooks.

THESE schools have the extra cash on hand to pay EXTRA for special *Bob Jones Press* versions of science textbooks. Mind you, this press is subsidized through other christian charities.

Smallberries: BTW creatures don't change to suit their environment, or rather if they do thats a behavior, not evolution. Evolution can not occur in one lifetime.

I appologise. That was not what I meant, I didn't mean creatures as in a single rabbit.

I meant that a rabbit today might not look a ton like a rabbit who lived in an entierly different enviromnet for a whole ton of time, (If rabbits lived in snow, you think that the black ones wouldn't tend to reproduce a ton, eventually all the (surviving) rabbits will match their snowy colored enviroment.

Appologies for not being clear.

(Hopefully not too bad for a fundy)

Sussman: But no. I'd like to see critically thinking questions such as this in a science class.

You've obviously never sat around with mathematicians and talked about '0', '1' and the nature of infinity. Infinity is just crazy.

I'm the one who submitted this with the hero tag. If you don't think UC deserves the hero tag for this, scroll up to "2005-08-30 07:09:48 PM" and read the excerpts from the "science" book in question.

Again, this has nothing to do with intolerance for any religion. It's about teaching real science in classes labeled "science". We're a developed nation because of science and industry. Let's not sabotage that.

Malenfant writes:

For me the only possible explanation is God. As for the events that follow, it's just a question of how involved God has been in the mechanics.

Why is the only explanation god, which god, and where did this god come from?

Faith. There is no perfect way to logically prove the existence of God. A leap of faith is required to bridge the final gap. I made that leap. Not everyone is willing to, or is capable of, doing so. I understand that and accept it.

I don't see invoking gods as any kind of answer as to where we came from until you can explain where each god and its creator came from.

See above. "Where did God come from?" is to an extent unanswerable. You can bog yourself down with the logical details or you can put the rest in faith.

--h

Saxmoore - they are not banning them because of their religion.

Every student who applies for admission has to meet certain criteria - regardless of where they come from.

When I applied to MSU I had to submit a transcript of my high school courses. I had to meet entrance requirements based on courses, grades and testing scores.

If I hadn't met the minimum criteria for entrance I wouldn't have been admitted.

They are not being denied entrance because of their faith, they are being denied because UoC is rightly saying that anyone taught science out of a Bob Jones textbook hasn't actually learned any science and therefore cannot meet the science requirement.

Its very simple

vowell1055:

I totally agree that ID should not be taught in a science class. It's religion, not science. But this is zealotry of an equal nature, and is ridiculous. There is no reason to exclude these students based on their education with regards to this one basic topic.

They are saying "you need these classes, x, y, z, etc"
They are saying for the class "science" you must show this: a, b, c, d, etc"

They have then gone and said, for classes based on these specific textbooks, we have determined that the standards as a "science" class have not been met.

If you read on of the "science" text books it openly says that if there is a conflict between what the bible says and what science says the bible wins.

Fine, but that's not science.

Saxman

This is pointed directly at Christians.

Nope. It's pointed at any school that uses those textbooks. Show me an Islamic school that used those textbooks and still got in.

And what else would you expect? Are you seriously proposing that Bob Jones could dictate to the UC system what their educational standards are? Quick, start printing up the FSM Textbooks for students from Fark High!

lostcat: Someday, humans of the future will look back on Christianity in the same way that we look back on the gods of Olympus.

Someday...


Yep and they'll believe in some new nonsense. People are way too willing to believe whatever BS will make them feel better.

Avicenna: Some of you tards are actually claiming that there is evidence supporting creationism.

(You probably weren't talking to me, but it's FARK where everyone takes "you" to mean themselves!)

I didn't provide any evidence claiming creationism is true, but I did pose a mathematical model suggesting that creationism is not necessarily false.

Woah. Was the tag changed to ? Cause I thought definitely applied here, and apparently that's how it was tagged initialy.

SAXMOORE
This is pointed directly at Christians. Disagree with them if you want, but this is clearly singling out one group for discrimination. That is wrong.

I would argue ID is a ruse to bring any kind of religion into the classroom - be it Muslim, Judaism, or Christianity. The main claim of ID is that the universe is so complex it must have had a creator. This applies to all of the above.

I'm really tired of Christians calling "discrimination" at the drop of a hat - the same time when they occupy the minds of most of the world's believers.

You're not being discriminated, your rights aren't being violated. Try asking people to stop blabbering superstitious nonsense and see what happens to you.

Smallberries

abiogenesis I think is the correct term for the science of the origin of life.

I think you missed something. Abiogenesis is a word. It means: we think it sprung up from primordial soup, but can't repeat the process in any scientific way at all.

It is the theory that life came from non-living things. It is about as scientifically proven as creationism... you know, not at all.

I want to go to college so that I can learn how to mis-manage a nuclear research program.

RichieXP: Infinity is just crazy.

I'm assuming you're referring to the flamewar threads?

"... and beyond!"

According to the lawsuit, UC's board of admissions also advised the school that it would not approve biology and science courses that relied primarily on textbooks published by Bob Jones University Press and A Beka Books, two Christian publishers.

Don't most colleges and universities have mythology departments for this sort of reading material?

Dancin in Anson.
No.

Good, Show those redstate morantards that educated America won't accept their Bullcrap. Besides don't these christian morans go to their biblecolleges anyway to learn how to make guns or something like that?

Hey redstaters you can screw up your own backwater states but don't try and mess with the states that have to support you with the money made in science.