FARK.com: (1638958) Blatant attempt at a PC/Mac flamewar: Four-year-old iBooks cause riot, but five-year-old refurbished Dell giveaways referred to as "pretty much giving away garbage"

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(Pittsburgh Post-Gazette)		Blatant attempt at a PC/Mac flamewar: Four-year-old iBooks cause riot, but five-year-old refurbished Dell giveaways referred to as "pretty much giving away garbage" (post-gazette.com)		238
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upright		2005-08-26 05:38:46 PM

So shut yer trappars!

/Sorry, Maddogjew :)

Major Thomb		2005-08-26 05:39:34 PM

Maddogjew:

My argument is not that XP is better than OSX, it's that apple's hardware is inferior at best.

That's a hard call, since there's a huge range of quality in the Intel compatible stuff. I've had people try to save a few bucks by buying consumer hardware for servers and have had nothing but problems. A lot of the drives aren't even designed for continuous use. NIC card multi-user performance varies wildly too.

Twitch OSX		2005-08-26 05:40:08 PM

Maddogjew.. heh.. although from the Apple Store online.. 2gb of ram was $600. Where the hell does Apple get its pricing from on RAM!??

Maddogjew		2005-08-26 05:40:53 PM

Major Thomb: That's a hard call, since there's a huge range of quality in the Intel compatible stuff.

That is true, generic parts are not good performers.

Twitch OSX		2005-08-26 05:41:46 PM

And if Apple's hardware is so inferior, why was the Apple cluster at Virginia Tech the 3rd fastest cluster in the world at one point? Why do people run Video, Audio, Graphics applications on this slow inferior bottled up hardware? Hmm.. I think your arguement there is a bit off.

workin' man		2005-08-26 05:42:38 PM

i think they call dells garbage is ... well they suck..

/using a stupid dell
//wants to build own computer, scared i might break something

mistergecko		2005-08-26 05:43:10 PM

Twitch OSX:

Well xalres - the Mac will still be usable in 4 years and you will be looking to buy another PC.

I think that whole argument is bunk. A pc is more difficult to maintain, but it's entirely possible to keep one running like new for years. I've had my XP box going for two years now and haven't ever had to open regedit or run any "cleaner" programs. In fact the only maintenance I do is use diskeeper (the indefinite trial version), and a program called started, which I used to remove extraneous startup items I didn't need (quicktime, realplayer, a couple p2p programs, nvidia control panel, etc). I have 512 ram and an underclocked Athlon XP 3200 (clocked to equal a 2500, don't need the speed and probably more reliable), and a video card with some actual chips taped on after I broke them off somehow (don't ask).

My point is that whether a computer is still good in 4 years is determined by how it's used not by what company made the OS.

/just wanted to use the word bunk
//no offence to macs, I'd buy one if I had the money

Twitch OSX		2005-08-26 05:43:16 PM

BTW, how many Bips does YOUR fancy machine do?

xalres		2005-08-26 05:45:28 PM

WTF is a bip? And why should I care how many I can run?

Maddogjew		2005-08-26 05:46:13 PM

Twitch OSX:

Why do people run Video, Audio, Graphics applications on this slow inferior bottled up hardware?

Because PCs don't run OSX? Alot of the software that these user are used to run only on OSX.

If apple's hardware could compete , then why doesn't Job allow OSX to run on PCs? (well, you can but it requires a hack).

Useless With Pics		2005-08-26 05:46:48 PM

I just bought 2 GB of RAM for my G5. It was about $350.

/own a G4, a G5 and a new iBook
/wife owns a G4 and an iMac

Twitch OSX		2005-08-26 05:46:56 PM

xalres -

OK.. heres my thought. For those that arent super computer users.. your standard computer user, the Mac is more reliable and will cost less. The Mac wont give you the problems that a PC will over the years. They will probably have to pay more to keep the PC up by taking it in to techs.. and will ultimately say "Screw this, I'm getting a new PC".. the Mac just wont do that to you.

xalres		2005-08-26 05:48:04 PM

Well yeah, but can I play City of Heroes on it?

Twitch OSX		2005-08-26 05:48:28 PM

a Bips is "Billion Instructions per second". And I was talking to Maddogjew.. hopefully he can get back to me on his Bips to back up his claims.

Useless With Pics		2005-08-26 05:48:43 PM

Twitch OSX

Bang on.

Cast		2005-08-26 05:48:48 PM

Four year old iBooks causing a riot is quite simple to explain. Most Apple users are morons.

=)

Maddogjew		2005-08-26 05:49:33 PM

Bip is Billion instructions per second. My 3800+ X2 (oc'd to 2.5) is getting a little over 24 bips.

Major Thomb		2005-08-26 05:49:38 PM

mistergecko:

I think that whole argument is bunk. A pc is more difficult to maintain, but it's entirely possible to keep one running like new for years. I've had my XP box going for two years now and haven't ever had to open regedit or run any "cleaner" programs.

Only two years? I've got some Intel servers going on six and still get the job done with no problems. Of course they're running more expensive professional quality parts and Unix which doesn't suffer from Microsoft useless feature bloat. I also have Sun servers at 10 years and still going strong.

Useless With Pics		2005-08-26 05:49:47 PM

Cast

Did you see the people fighting over 'em?

They didn't look like typical Mac users to me. Skids, maybe.

Twitch OSX		2005-08-26 05:50:50 PM

Useless With Pics - You got ripped off man. Check pricewatch.com next time.

As for the Audio, Video, Graphics software, Im not aware of any of that that doesnt run on PC's except Final Cut Pro.

Useless With Pics		2005-08-26 05:51:43 PM

Twitch OSX

Naw, that's in Canadian $.

xalres		2005-08-26 05:52:01 PM

Switch to Linux (poppy goodness). Run a Beowulf cluster of atomic super-mutants.

Twitch OSX		2005-08-26 05:52:12 PM

Maddogjew - Are you using Typical Instructions or Fast Integer Instructions?

Major Thomb		2005-08-26 05:52:54 PM

Maddogjew:

f apple's hardware could compete , then why doesn't Job allow OSX to run on PCs? (well, you can but it requires a hack).

That's easy. Their business model requires the hardware sales to keep the company alive. I wish they would revamp that and become more of a software vendor but I don't see that happening. They're just getting around to having a mouse with two buttons. It would be very nice to have some real competition in the desktop OS market.

Maddogjew		2005-08-26 05:53:24 PM

I'm using SiSoft Sandra as a benchmark. Your results may vary.

Twitch OSX		2005-08-26 05:54:27 PM

Hmm.. not sure how your getting 24 Bips. The most I can get is 8.5. But my altivec isnt being used in this test.

Maddogjew		2005-08-26 05:57:01 PM

I'm getting that because the X2 is a dual core CPU (think dually). If I disable a core and go to stock speed I'm still getting a hair under 11 bips.

Nutsac_Jim		2005-08-26 05:57:52 PM

bewlaybrutha

rickthvote

I doubt it, since PCs are outdated junk the second they come into your possesion, whereas a Mac is 10 years ahead of its time even a year after you buy it.

/fact

I guess that explains why it takes so long for games to gome out on the mac, they are waiting for the equilibrium date.

kingwank		2005-08-26 06:01:07 PM

Theaetetus Actually, other way around - more Mac people tend to have higher education degrees, and more biologists and geneticists are Mac people (thanks to Blast!)

Education people don't have Macs because they're smart. They have Macs because they're cheap. Back in the day, Jobs gave away Macs to these cheapasses.

Macs are the plague of journalism education institutions everywhere. Kids go to college to learn how it's going to be in the real world of journalism/advertising/pr/etc., and they learn instead that they'll have to wait until they get into the professional ranks to deal with the software and hardware that 98% of corporations use. That's right, folks. That's PCs.

Maddogjew		2005-08-26 06:02:47 PM

Twitch OSX:
Go to sites like www.hardocp.com and look at some of the reviews that they have. If Apple could have ramped up speed on the PowerPc they might have been able to compete in raw speed. that is the reason Apple is switching to X86 based platform. It is an admission of their faliure. I don't have any problems with OSX, it's a nice polished OS, but Apple's hardware is at least a generation behind PCs.

lexslamman		2005-08-26 06:04:36 PM

People still use Macs? I thought they went the way of the Delorean, BetaMax, and the VirtuaBoy.

Twitch OSX		2005-08-26 06:04:58 PM

Well, I know Apple dumped IBM because they said they would have 3ghz out over a year ago. IBM didnt do it so Apple said fark you and went to Intel.

kaikara		2005-08-26 06:05:27 PM

Twitch OSX

You are confusing PC hardware with the operating system. Apple will not get my money unless I can build my hardware the way I want and install what I want on it. Whether that be DOS, XP, FreeBSD, or linux etc.

It will be interesting to see if the Apple zealots can convince themselves that the premium they are paying is worth it once the Intel switch is over. And i wonder if Apple will fool themselves to believe that people will buy what basically amounts to a Dell in a fancy case in two years time if they price it 25-50 percent higher.

Twitch OSX would you buy a intel Apple computer if you have to pay 25-50 percent more just so you can run OS X?

Maddogjew		2005-08-26 06:08:51 PM

Apple should stick to selling software and leave hardware alone. I would love to have a tri boot XP/OSX/Redhat system.

BHK		2005-08-26 06:12:00 PM

Harder to maintain a PC? Well, I've got one that's been running 5 years now. Was all state-of-the-art when I built it. 9 months after I got it up and running, I dismantled it and took it to Eastern Europe in a suitcase. Had it up and running there the day I arrived. When I returned to the US, I dismantled it again and put it in my suitcase. I also put in a bottle of homemade brandy. Somewhere along the way, the bottle of brandy broke and soaked all of the components.

I put the computer back together anyway and it worked perfectly - in fact, it seemed to have run even better. That computer has been running in the home office for 3 years since then and has never had a single problem. Even the XP upgrade went smooth as a baby's bottom.

As for the argument about all the anti-virus software - if Mac had more than a 5% market share, it too would see half the world trying to destroy them for fun and profit.

heap		2005-08-26 06:12:22 PM

how many 'dell zealots' are there?

somehow, i don't think that it's really a bad thing that there aren't.

it's a friggin computer. if it makes your sticker peck up to own a particular make or model, that's swell...but why would anyone expect everyone elses reaction should be the same?

xebeche_tzu		2005-08-26 06:13:36 PM

I just love it that when a PC is doing nothing, it is really running a gigantic program called Windoze. When an Apple is doing nothing, it's really doing nothing.

mciann		2005-08-26 06:16:13 PM

If run Microsoft on a PC, you are a farking moron. If you run Mac, I have some respect for you, but you still have more money than brains. If you run any RPM based Linux distro, you are a poser. If you run Debian, you are an arrogant bastard, but you are cool. If you run Gentoo, you are teh l33t.

Maddogjew		2005-08-26 06:16:47 PM

xebeche_tzu:
Huh?

bikerific		2005-08-26 06:17:11 PM

Had PCs forever, wanted a 2d computer for the wife, who is into music and photos.

Got her an iMac, and I've been pretty much won over. For everything we do (except gaming, but I did too much of that anyway), the Mac just does it quickly and easily. Same stuff on my Dell involves a lot of time and swearing.

Not to mention the time sink of maintaining the thing- anti-spyware, anti-virus, anti-just stopped working because it felt like it, etc.

I've got a life, and I don't want to spend it all trying to figure out what the problem is with the computer today.

karst		2005-08-26 06:19:50 PM

heh, typical of the tax money that gets wasted on public schools. They're trying to raise our local sales tax to 9.75% from 9.25% and say "it's for the schools" They'll just waste it on garbage like Pittsburgh did.

Twitch OSX		2005-08-26 06:23:19 PM

Exactly bikerific. I want to use my computer, not dick with it to make it work like it should in the first place.

Maddogjew		2005-08-26 06:24:26 PM

Huh, I've been on Fark for 3 years today. Wow, I wonder how much time I've wasted since then.

0_o		2005-08-26 06:24:33 PM

speed results
http://www.apple.com/powermac/performance/
(scroll down)
(i know its from apples site...whaddyawant?)

asdfbeau		2005-08-26 06:30:41 PM

it's ALWAYS been the processor architecture
that's the reason your games never came out on 'Macs', and it's the reason that the programs that were made on 'Macs' ran so much more smoothly; it's different rules applied to different architecture.

I doubt that Apple deciding to come to Intel was based solely on processor speed. I'm sure that they (finally) saw the writing on the wall, and that their minimalistic processor architecture, while very fast at what it did, was never going to capture the market share that they wanted.

It's amazing that so many people who use 'Macs' don't know a farking thing about what makes them so different from PCs, besides what slaps them in the face when they turn the thing on. It's not the OS, it's the processor...

wannabeotaku		2005-08-26 06:34:21 PM

hell, i'm a PC user and mac hater, but i have to hand it to the, they're right. a 4 year old mac is still a viable computer, but even brand new dells are garbage.

Blhack		2005-08-26 06:38:10 PM

Stop farking refering ot Mac OSX as an operating system. IT ISN"T....this is like saying xorg + KDE is an operating system. Mac OSX is a WINDOW MANAGER!11 BSD is the operating system, and YES BSD is superior to windows. I just can't stand the whole 'mac mentality' bullshiat. It gets farking old farking fast. After the fourth person that i talked to who didn't know shiat about shiat about anything i decided that 100% of the mac people i had met were idiots, and therefore at least 90% of mac users were idiots.

mortong		2005-08-26 06:39:00 PM

2005-08-26 04:21:21 PM Theaetetus

Do you have any proof of this whatsoever, or are you just talking out of your ass?

Sorry, linking to the apple website does not count as "proof." Try again.

/Linux abuser

toraque		2005-08-26 06:39:35 PM

Umberto Eco (The Name of the Rose, Focault's pendulumn) on the Mac vs. PC flamewar:

...."Insufficient consideration has been given to the new underground religious war which is modifying the modern world. It's an old idea of mine, but I find that whenever I tell people about it they immediately agree with me.

"The fact is that the world is divided between users of the Macintosh computer and users of MS-DOS compatible computers. I am firmly of the opinion that the Macintosh is Catholic and that DOS is Protestant. Indeed, the Macintosh is counter-reformist and has been influenced by the 'ratio studiorum' of the Jesuits. It is cheerful, friendly, conciliatory, it tells the faithful how they must proceed step by step to reach--if not the Kingdom of Heaven--the moment in which their document is printed. It is catechistic: the essence of revelation is dealt with via simple formulae and sumptuous icons. Everyone has a right to salvation.

"DOS is Protestant, or even Calvinistic. It allows free interpretation of scripture, demands difficult personal decisions, imposes a subtle hermeneutics upon the user, and takes for granted the idea that not all can reach salvation. To make the system work you need to interpret the program yourself: a long way from the baroque community of revellers, the user is closed within the loneliness of his own inner torment.

"You may object that, with the passage to Windows, the DOS universe has come to resemble more closely the counter-reformist tolerance of the Macintosh. It's true: Windows represents an Anglican-style schism, big ceremonies in the cathedral, but there is always the possibility of a return to DOS to change things in accordance with bizarre decisions; when it comes down to it, you can decide to allow women and gays to be ministers if you want to.

"And machine code, which lies beneath both systems (or environments, if you prefer)? Ah, that is to do with the Old Testament, and is talmudic and cabalistic..."

This was written back in '94, before Linux had really gone anywhere--I suppose he'd call that neo-paganism of some sort, as it reaches back to the days of UNIX mainframes . . .

heap		2005-08-26 06:48:42 PM

Blhack: I just can't stand the whole 'mac mentality' bullshiat.

it is kinda funny how it transitions, tho.

i remember how macOS was the best thing to have ever happened to computers, evar!...then they pitched in favor of a *nix chasis that had prior been deemed inferior.

the switch to x86 cpu is just icing on that proverbial cake.

what is kinda funny (and this is in reference to the mac zealots i deal with at work on a daily basis...not posters here. i haven't paid enough attention to this thread to say it exemplifies anyone here) is how quickly the transition occurs.

there's the initial shock and revulsion ('x86?? why, i've said that sucks countless times!')...but within a week, it's properly justified and all is well again.

just an interesting sociological angle to this one. somebody should do a study on mac zealots.

one with lots of electric probes.

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