GraphicAddiction: Pffffffft. I like facts. I like knowledge.

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA *breathes* BWHAHAHAHAHA no you like the facts that can back your point. I have seen you get taken to logic school in this thread and many others yet you still continue to parrot the same line. You don't even flinch in backing it ,it's like clockwork. Knowledge is something you have no intention of obtaining because if you did you would be able to draw more logical circles and thought patterns.

ZAZ

I prefer hypothesizing greed to propaganda because the words on the graves are not in the public eye. a Republican is in office.

Just helping out..

This makes me sad as a former airman. The idea behind including only the basics is that all of us are the same. That regardless of whether you died in crappy places like Somalia, or you were on the beach at Normandy, you all gave the same thing, and all for the same reason, defending the constitution (that's the oath, kids, all else is bulls#!t). Seperating some out like their cause was different invariably creates classes, where people view some wars as more worthy, others as less. Again, it's another example of the top echelon of the military and administration demonstrating that they have no clue what it's like to actually be a pair of boots on the ground.

Firefly

GraphicAddiction
I realize that many politically confused individuals will take whatever leaps of logic it requires to pin the Iraq War entirely on Bushie.

That's not a realization.

That's a presumption, based on your political naivete and belligerent denial of how your participation in partisan group-think has distorted your perception of the political reality of the situation.

There are people around that understand the distinctions between these activities. We're called "critical thinkers," and we knew the day Bush was elected that we'd be invading Iraq - the only details in the air were when, what the official line would be, and how well the American public would react. 9/11 was the wildcard, and it ended up providing the temporal basis for the first, the convenient yet unsubstantiated rationale for the second, and the PR mitigation for the third.

It doesn't take a psychic. It just takes someone who can see reality for what it is, and understand how the particular flavor of a leadership's incompetence and adherence to self-interested, destructive ideologies will determine how they implement selfish, incompetent, destructive actions.

Try thinking about these things sometime. It's really not that difficult.

I am shocked that the current administration would do something like this...

oh wait, no i am not.

how about "operation human shield" thats a real good one also. and what about "operation infinite justice".

so bad, so cheesy, so bush.

World War II. now that sounds serious. it sounds credible, it sounds like something that should be on a tombstone of a fallen soldier.

"Operation Iraqi Freedom"? c'mon. people will be rolling their eyes at that one 20 years from now.

what a joke this administration is. i still can't believe some people don't see it. maybe it is easier to go through life without thinking about things, or questioning. maybe i should just try repeating what i hear on the TV and make that my opinion. this country is proving more and more ever day, that it is filled with sheep.

I wonder if any will have the original "Operation Iraqi Liberation" slogan? The Iraq war wasn't called "Operation Iraqi Freedom" until they realised that the original slogan had the acronym OIL, and decided to change it a few weeks after the invasion started.

whoflungpoop
Try thinking about these things sometime. It's really not that difficult.

Yeah, because everything you spouted off was so original and ground breaking. Really, no one has ever said anything like that before.

/if you ever say anything about politics morons like this guy will say you group-think
//Perhaps you can just agree with them, but have arrived there by your own methods. Did you ever think of that?

binnster - i had not hear that one, but completely believe it. especially since the first invasion into afghanistan had the word "crusade" in it. finally someone told the administration "um, you might not want to include the word crusade in an invasion in the middle east".

just another glaring, obvious example of the incompetence of these folks. a twelve-year old would understand why that one was a bad idea, these guys didn't.

dummys.

Even though I haven't even read this thread, I am guessing it is chock full of well thought out opinions without exageration!

What do you think all of this patriotism bullshiat is but PR?

"The headstone is not a PR purpose. It is to let the country know and the people that visit the cemetery know who served this country and made the country free for us,"

Wouldn't we already know that by visiting a grave site of a soldier...

/stupid PR people

Six feet deep 'neath dirt them bones
Can't read what's writ on their stones

I am picturing consdubya looking at phoxxy and saying, "Phoxxy, you ignorant slut."

b04155

"The headstone is not a PR purpose. It is to let the country know and the people that visit the cemetery know who served this country and made the country free for us,"

Are we going to bury them in Iraq?

/actually, not sure Iraq is a good place to bury them to demonstrate that the country is "free"

Plenty of lefties rubbing one out to that lame "news" article

President George W Bush: "Bring em on"

Indeed. Here's a Flash map of Iraq with coalition casualties depicted in a timeline [pops, has sound]:

http://www.obleek.com/iraq/


/yes yes yes i cheated with the quoting thing, GWB didn't actually post to this thread

Deep Hurting: Whoa, hold on. I thought the pro-war crowd was generally trying to DOWNPLAY the comparisons to Vietnam.

Or is this another example of the current "reclaim and glorify that which had pretty much no redeeming qualities whatsoever" trend, like how Nixon and all the other criminals in his Administration are now suddenly viewed by some as examples of real American heroes victimized by the big mean old ogre-like press or something?

Where'd that come from? Don't give a rats ass about pro-war or anti-war crowds. Was just stating fact.

"The headstone is not a PR purpose. It is to let the country know and the people that visit the cemetery know who served this country and made the country free for us"

That second sentence is pure public relations. We stink so badly of bull$#!& in this country that we don't even notice it rolling off our tongues.

/does not apply to those who gave their lives in LEGITIMATE wars, of course.

Durang

Plenty of lefties rubbing one out to that lame "news" article

With Bush's approval rating in the 30%, there are a LOT of lefties these days...

Yet another Fark thread turns into a Bush bashing flamewar.

/debated using the tag.

BradBrening

Yet another Fark thread turns into a Bush bashing flamewar.

It's just that.... there is SO MUCH to bash!

its the same as putting "Operation Overlord" on D-day vets stones who died storming Normandy. Tag is assinine...like alot of the farkers in this thread

Be all you can be.

"This is all Bush's fault" would be a better inscription.

b04155

"Wouldn't we already know that by visiting a grave site of a soldier..."

No we wouldn't. Consider viewing the same grave site 50 years in the future. Would a non descript marker let people in the future recall who is buried here. Sure, you have name, rank, and dates of birth/death. If the person's mildly familiar with battle histories, they may be able to deduce what action the serviceman gave their life for. Have you spent any time walking through a national cemetary? It's rather a poignant reminder that these servicemen gave their lives for your ability to enjoy the peaceful afternoon. Whether the conflict they served in was in your opinion right or wrong, they gave their lives so that you and others like you may live.

/cue patriotic music

Now, how about the ones who survived through it all and died of old age in their 90's? Would we know that said soldier landed as part of Operation Torch, traversed the mountains at Salerno, landed as part of Operation Overlord, raced forward to the Rhine, relieved the 101st at Bastogne, and survived? You would have no idea.

It's not a matter of advertisement. It's a matter of letting the future generation know who this man or woman was and how and where they served and died.

The dead need nothing. They are dead. The grave markers are for future generations to learn and not to forget the past.

John Doe
2005
"I died cause the damn insurgent used a wallhack!"

firefly212
This makes me sad as a former airman. The idea behind including only the basics is that all of us are the same. That regardless of whether you died in crappy places like Somalia, or you were on the beach at Normandy, you all gave the same thing, and all for the same reason, defending the constitution (that's the oath, kids, all else is bulls#!t). Seperating some out like their cause was different invariably creates classes, where people view some wars as more worthy, others as less. Again, it's another example of the top echelon of the military and administration demonstrating that they have no clue what it's like to actually be a pair of boots on the ground.

Hear, hear.

(Already decided that mine will NOT say "Vietnam".)

It's not exactly obvious, but seems to me like once again the administration is attempting to manage if not outright manipulate perception of death by romanticizing it prematurely. Lets face it, as time passes, and the pain subsides, people tend ot romanticize and color the reasons for a fallen persons demise. And that is a part of dealingwith death. But to force it too early in the process, shoving the fabricated names used to prematurely glorify the fallen when now is a time to mourn for a family seems tacky.
Kind of like taking apiece of furniture and aging it prematurely for effect.
These guys just want to cover every angle and inundate us to skew perception. Just turn up the volume or frequency pf the message.

Not to mention, in death, all those people's headstones shouldnot seek to stand out. That is the point, no egotistical pride in death

I am no fan of Bush, but I have a question: if, instead of "Operation Iraqi Freedom", it was named something like "Operation Cougar Strike" would you still care? If the answer is "no", then STFU. The name of the operation IS "Operation Iraqi Freedom". A slightly propogantic name, yes. But it's not like they made it up so they can put it on the gravestones. It's not like they're writing "Died valiantly deposing a dictator and defeating Al-Qaeda in Iraq". No, it's just the operation name. You either disagree with the entire policy of putting the names of the operations they died in on the headstones, or you put up with "Operation Iraqi Freedom".

For foxyg and Coolhaus

Elderchang

Consider viewing the same grave site 50 years in the future.

Oh man, once everything about Iraq has trickled down, people will weep on these graves. They'll say "here's another patsy who died for nothing".

they gave their lives so that you and others like you may live.

Patriotic rhetoric is the ONLY benefit of serving in the armed forces.

The grave markers are for future generations to learn and not to forget the past.

fark, if future people learn from the past, no other POTUS will ever be able to spew bullshiat again.

SkittlesAreYum
Good point and that concept is telling about those of us trying to make our own anti war political statements.
I wonder what the military farkers consensus opinion on that is???
I'd guess, that most want the name of the group they were a part of on their stone(101st,82ndetc) and not the name of the operation they conducted, even if it were less inflammatory

spikedpunch: Hmm.. Someone help me with this. And I could be wrong, but going along with the line of thinking in this thread, the names on the Vietnam memorial are there purely for exploitation. Did anyone ask their families to put those names up on the wall?

I lost 2 good friends in Iraq. We were eating lunch. And if hadn't have been sitting where I was sitting, I could have been dead, too. And I would like to think that in 20 years. 1)This war means something. 2)When it does, those two 20 year old kids recieved the recognition they deserved for answering the call of their nation.

A line on a tombstone is a start, but it certainly isn't enough.

Did this happen in December? If you are from the unit I am thinking of, I believe my husband's BN is the one who replaced you guys in Janaury.

Sorry for the loss of your friends. I can only imagine how that would feel. I was FRG chair for my hubby's former unit. It was gutt-wrenching enough to watch what his mother was going through when she lost her son. I still cry when I think about her sometimes. Tough job trying to keep it together when she's soaking your shoulder in tears.

I would hate to think ppl would wait 20 years to finally remember some soldiers and the job they've done. I'm not talking about flashy ticker tape parades or attention whoring type stuff, but just an appreciation and a little respect for these guys doing a job that most people choose not to do. It took -- what? -- 20 plus years before people stopped being ashamed of Vietnam long enough to look at the soldiers and go "Hey, sorry we treated you like shiat. Thank you."


Elderchang: It's not a matter of advertisement. It's a matter of letting the future generation know who this man or woman was and how and where they served and died.

The dead need nothing. They are dead. The grave markers are for future generations to learn and not to forget the past.

Well put.

StarshipPooper: John Doe
2005
"I died cause the damn insurgent used a wallhack!"

OMG... You owe me a new keyboard! LOL.

/And yes, my husband would find that funny, too.
//note to self to tell that to him the next time he calls...

Operation Super Fun Happy Place!

What's the big deal? If I died in a war, I wouldn't mind having the name of the war that I died in printed on my tombstone.

Vet_Curm

(Already decided that mine will NOT say "Vietnam".)

Neither will mine, actually.

To be honest, I plan on living forever. So far, so good.

pcom32: I'd guess, that most want the name of the group they were a part of on their stone(101st,82ndetc) and not the name of the operation they conducted, even if it were less inflammatory

That's an interesting idea, and most likely true, given the dedication many soliders have to their units. Perhaps that would be a better "default" message on the headstones.

The Bush admiistration has managed to put "pretty" names on a lot of things. Take for instance the Death Tax; it's now the "Estate" tax, which I beleive is now the "Entitlement" tax. Don't even get started on french fries (which aren't even FROM France), french toast, or french braids...

kevin5lynn
To be honest, I plan on living forever. So far, so good.

Twenty years ago, that was my plan too. The genetic hand you get dealt can have a way of interfering with your plans.

I know I'm getting in quite late in this thread, and surely many of you have pointed this out, but I just wanted to say THANK GOD the Pentagon folks aren't trying to speak for the dead, because that would be...wrong. Right? I mean I guess it's okay for the dead to "speak," as long as they speak for the administration.

phoxxy

I would hate to think ppl would wait 20 years to finally remember some soldiers and the job they've done.

We remember all the time, it's just a question of HOW it's remembered. If it's remembered by Cindy Sheenan, it's shameful. If it's done by Bush, it's patriotic.


It took -- what? -- 20 plus years before people stopped being ashamed of Vietnam long enough to look at the soldiers and go "Hey, sorry we treated you like shiat. Thank you."

Oh yeah? But 20 years later, we all know this war was useless, and we all know everyone who died over there died for nothing.

Kinda hurts.

You're all going to tell me there were no US casualities in Kosovo?

I'm sure at least one guy got the clap from a slavic prostitute, or have we all forgotten Operation: Burning Urethra

Vet_Curm

Twenty years ago, that was my plan too. The genetic hand you get dealt can have a way of interfering with your plans.

But you're still here! So far so good for you too!!!

Kudos!

How does anyone think this is good advertising? "I died doing this--you should sign up!" Budweiser doesn't slap their name on drunk driving memorials. It seems to me that this is simply recognizing the dead for what they sacrificed their lives for.

/continue flame-war

Supercheeks

No doubt, the most influential people to the masses of semi educated easily influenced people are the marketers of the crap that are foisted on us.
And to those who arent easily fooled, they have figured out that repetition is the key to wearing us down.
The ad-man is the snakeoil salesman . Lies and lies of ommission and hair splitting legal loopholes are our surrogate for self determining, principled ethics.
We are all people magazine readers now and want to belong to a cool group, even if that group is dead.

/ goes to watch fight club

pcom32

We are all people magazine readers now and want to belong to a cool group, even if that group is dead.

Exactly.

The *only* benefit of military service is the patriotic rhetoric, that's it.

Not the money.

Not the job.

What someone wants on the headstone is their own business.

The Pres, Senate, and House all (except for two) made the same mistake and were duped. For that reason alone they all need to go. what a bunch of fools. We need a clean sweep.

The idea of the same party majority control in the executive and legislative branch does not work. We either need a REP pres, and DEM controlled legislater or visa-versa. In this situation nothing gets done, they just argue all the time. Which is really good news for us all as we can get on with our lifes with and not worry so much about a bunch of people with two much time on thier hands creating problems.

The objective for this puppet administration was to get P. Wolfowitz into the world bank position. A "Mission Accomplished" banner should be flown at the world bank.

2005-08-24 10:41:28 AM CreamFilling

How does anyone think this is good advertising? "I died doing this--you should sign up!" Budweiser doesn't slap their name on drunk driving memorials. It seems to me that this is simply recognizing the dead for what they sacrificed their lives for.


Its not good, its less bad as a subtle attempt to skew ever so slightly the healing process and prematurely make people romanticize the loss of loved ones

Allow me

1- denial
2- anger
3- bargaining
4-depression
5- acceptance
becomes.....
1- denial (dead)
2- acceptance (buried) ""he died fighting for freedom at least"
3- hollow feelingthat your own emotional process is cheapened
4- disenfranchisement (nothing to see here, move along)
4.5- appeasement by leader who senses drop in poll and uses pollyanns platitudes to pump you up again
5- anger directed at the new scapegoat marketed to you by your leader

*pollyanna platitudes