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(SFGate)   "Cosmological iconoclasts" cast doubt on Big Bang theory, but are hobbled by lack of mathematical formulas able to express the concept of "turtles all the way down"   (sfgate.com) divider line 302
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9474 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Aug 2005 at 1:41 PM (8 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2005-08-15 03:12:09 PM
walkingtall:

...it becomes like a club. It is a bunch of people coming up with theories and using jargon that nobody can understand to explain things that when you put in REAL terms makes no logical sense

You do have at least a passing familiarity with the histories of the Judeo-Christian relgions, don't you?
 
2005-08-15 03:12:15 PM
droptone

Why does this annoy you? If I am spewing rubbish about some car mechanical problem and an actual trained mechanic corrects me, I do not get angry. Accept that there is a vast array of information out there and each field is incredibly complex. You don't have time to deal with it all, so you look to 'authorities' on the matter. Looking to one authority is a bad step because there may be differing opinions, but having the gaul to think you can make a coherent critique of a fairly well established theory because you can't understand it or it 'sounds bad' is the pinnacle of ignorance.


I watched a very interesting man selling his book on CSPAN this weekend. It was about how many frauds there have been in the science and intellectual community and how the people who have stood up and stated that it was made up garbage have suffered. Nobody likes to be told what you believe is garbage and intellectuals are no different. Many modern theories have no basis in science but are simply beleived because they have always been believed even when counter evidence exists it is ignored. Happens in every human endeavor and science is NO different.
 
2005-08-15 03:12:34 PM
walkingtall

The problem with intellectual elitism is that it becomes like a club. It is a bunch of people coming up with theories and using jargon that nobody can understand to explain things that when you put in REAL terms makes no logical sense. God IS logical and everything makes sense. Faith comes in believing that for some things only God can know the answer and being OK with that. Eveything else is fair game. Scientists on the other hand try to wrap shiat with pretty words and sell it to everyone as fact because it is what they WANT to believe.

Do you say the same thing to your doctor? Or are you a Christian Scientist?
 
2005-08-15 03:13:51 PM
walkingtall

Science can be explained in as simple terms as one desires. And it's all about logic. That sometimes it counters every day intuition doesn't mean it's not logical. Scientists observe and take what they know already to explain what they see. There's no believing involved.
 
2005-08-15 03:14:35 PM
I'd argue that the UCC actually worships Jesus

The Uniform Commercial Code is almost entirely religio-neutral. Thanks.

God is Lunch.
 
2005-08-15 03:14:58 PM
walkingtall



Examples please.
 
2005-08-15 03:14:59 PM
It's not quite accurate that the Big Bang model says the universe sprang from nothing. What it says is that what it sprang from is inherently unknowable.

Post-big bang models (of which the big bang has to be an accurate approximation) do try to address the problem. A number of multiverse models hold that the universe is a single region of spontaneous symmetry-broken Higgs field which becomes causally disconnected from said field. Other similar models have universes spawning new universes.

The BB is not the end of the story - it is an approximation for times later than 10-(large number) seconds: just like classical mechanics is a large-scales approximation to quantum mechanics.
 
2005-08-15 03:16:11 PM
Felgraf:

I admit, I am confused by those who claim that there is, without a doubt, no god, and then claim that this is a scientific view, and that they 'know' that this is the truth.

Me too. There's no reason to claim this, and the claim indulges the fallacy that "God" is currently falsifiable. I do not believe that such a being exists, but it is pointless and logically inconsistent to claim definite

Wizzin:

Basically, our universe came into existence for no apparent reason whatsoever. There was a Big Bang, but whatever it was that went "Bang", sprang from the nether because we say it did, so don't ask about that of quantum mechanics, though we really aren't sure and are looking into it, and feel free to ask about that, especially if you have a testable hypothesis to contribute.....

Fixed that for you.
 
2005-08-15 03:16:20 PM
walkingtall
It is a bunch of people coming up with theories and using jargon

You mean scientists use big words because it's important for them to be precise when they speak? Damn them scientists and their club.

that nobody can understand to explain things that when you put in REAL terms makes no logical sense.

Such as?

Scientists on the other hand try to wrap shiat with pretty words and sell it to everyone as fact because it is what they WANT to believe .

So when scientists publish their research in peer-reviewed journals to be critiqued and discussed that is intellectual arrogance. When you claim to know that all scientists are hucksters trying to get one by the average Joe, that is... what, exactly?
 
2005-08-15 03:16:35 PM
Felgraf:
But you do not know, just as those who claim that they believe that God is the Truth do not know

I would stake my life on it that human beings INVENTED the gods they believe in, absolutely. To explain what happens after they "die" would be the biggest reason. When I die, I die free, without some kind of ridiculous neurotic dogma which is Judeo-Christianity.

I do not see science in a direct opposition to religion.

I don't either. But I have noticed how science has made it even clearer how wrong we were...you debunk the traditional set of myths, and of course what remains are even more unanswered questions.

Just not the angry-invisible-god-in-the-sky crap...

Which we need to stop accepting as "truth."
 
2005-08-15 03:16:48 PM
Eep. Make that:

Me too. There's no reason to claim this, and the claim indulges the fallacy that "God" is currently falsifiable. I do not believe that such a being exists, but it is pointless and logically inconsistent to claim definitely that there is no such being.
 
2005-08-15 03:17:08 PM
ufamizm: You don't know the history of the universe. I do.

I second that and I'm sure so does Mr. Cruise.

I KNOW! I KNOW! AND YOU DON'T.
 
2005-08-15 03:17:24 PM
walkingtall:

What are you writing these posts on? Because unless God told you how to make something very similar to a computer, you are using a computer. Which is a product of a hell of a lot of advanced scientists. You accuse scientists of being liars and charletons on an incredibly complex machine built by scientists based upon very advanced scientific concepts.

Those lights in your room? Science. That thing you see moving pictures on? Its a television. Thats science, not God. That machince you drive to work? Its a car. Science, not God. ETC

Bottom line is that there is an UNBELIEVABLE amount of stuff out there that PROVES that science works. How are scientists "wrapping stuff up in shiat" yet still coming up with stuff like computers, TVs, cars....? Don't those things kind of indicate that they might be on to something here?
 
2005-08-15 03:17:27 PM
Krazikarl
Yes, imaginary particles, and how they proved that they existed, are really, really neat. =).

What's really problematic is it's entirely possible that our concept of space-time is.. invalid 'before' the big-bang. There might have been a 'before', but in a totally different sense than how we use it. =)
 
2005-08-15 03:17:48 PM
-God doesn't exist, I know this for sure, 100%
-Christianity is evil because the inquisition
-and Dan Brown told me
-I hate christians because they're always trying to tell me that what I should believe
-I always tell them what they should believe
-Some (many) christians are idiots, therefore they are ALL idiots
-Atheism is the ONLY true religion. Ayn Rand told me so
-I am not an atheist hypocrite

/read the article... it was dumb.
//prefer the 'nothing exists but me, and i'm just a brain in a jar' theory.
 
2005-08-15 03:17:50 PM
Quantum mechanics can predict that stuff pops out of nowhere FOR NO REASON.

Yes and no. The net energy times the lifetime of the virtual particle must be less than Planck's constant.

OTOH, people forget that the energy of gravitation is negative. Some observations indicate that the net energy of the universe is zero, that it is "flat". IIRC, this finding is independant of more recent discoveries regarding dark energy.

This if the net energy of the universe is very small, its lifetime as a quantum fluctuation can be very large. If it's that simple.
 
2005-08-15 03:18:37 PM
On a side note, we need one more to fill out our fantasy team.

The draft is Sept. 1.
 
2005-08-15 03:20:05 PM
whidbey

*Tilts his head* But I never said it should be accepted as 'truth'. I said the exact opposite.. I said that we should admit that all we have is belief, since none of us have died.

Personally, I hope, when I die, I'm more curious than afraid. I certainly am now, when I think about death. =). (Not that I have any intent on dying anytime soon, as there's plenty left in the universe to be curious about!)

But, and this is out of sheer curiosity: Do you believe that we are governed by the laws of causality (and quantum fluccuations), or do we somehow have free will? =)
 
2005-08-15 03:21:16 PM
Robobagpiper

Oh, I had not heard about that one... that is interesting. =)
 
2005-08-15 03:21:55 PM
I think its a combination of both. God created science.
 
2005-08-15 03:22:21 PM
Walkingtall



I would strongly advise you that if you are going to tell 1 billion people that what they believe is a myth. Millions who trust the Bible with their lives and the lives of their children. Who seek to know God and live their lives as Jesus lived that it is all simply a myth you had BETTER be right. Because if you are wrong, as I once was, the consequences are more then you are even capable of understanding right now. You will have to face the God of the universe and explain why you stole faith from His children. Not questions I want to have to answer. I have been in your shoes and you better be REAL careful what you put forward as fact.


One time, when I thought I was dying (in the sense of going to die that day) I was kinda worried that I was wrong and there might be a God, but I sure didn't believe that he cared what kind of food I ate, or who a farked (which seems to be the prevailing issues in Christianity/Judism/Islam).

I believe that ideas like God and an afterlife were created out of stories much in the same way the now debunked theories of Roman Gods/ Viking Gods and a whole host of pagan beliefs have died out. There is a ton of similarity between the two.

Like did you know that the passion of christ was something that was done to instill hatred in the Jews and not nessessarily the way things happened. The scriptures weren't written until 100s of years after the death of Jesus so I find all data in them to be suspect and subject to grave distortions and exaggerations common when passing stories on from generation to generation.

At one point in the bible God and Abraham (I think it was him) wrestle, and it comes out in a tie. A TIE?! a being who can create the entire vastness of the universe can't pin a human being... That seems out there. And Sampson who could tear a lion in half, unless you subjected him to the krytonite of his day and cut off his hair.

All of these tales are great facinating stories for the campfire at night and I'm sure they grew in obsurdity as time went on.

If it makes you feel better to believe in God/Jesus, that is fantastic. Just keep it out of science, government and my face.
 
2005-08-15 03:22:43 PM
It seems walkingtall's arguments have been pretty well PWN3D.

/just wanted to say
 
2005-08-15 03:22:53 PM
Many modern theories have no basis in science but are simply beleived because they have always been believed even when counter evidence exists it is ignored.

And yet you can't present a single full-scale example. Oh, sure, you assert that it's the case for theories that you don't like, such as evolution, but upon examination of your "evidence" it becomes clear that you haven't had the slightest bit of education in the field of biology, physics, chemistry, or any branch of science at all. Or logic, for that matter.
 
2005-08-15 03:23:26 PM
Felgraf: Do you believe that we are governed by the laws of causality (and quantum fluccuations), or do we somehow have free will? =)

I don't know about any of that, really. Free will? At least in this sphere of existence, we APPEAR to have it...

And science does to hint that causes and effects do happen...

One thing at a time...;)
 
2005-08-15 03:24:33 PM
WALKINGTALL,
You were wrong only once?
A punishing God? A God to fear?
What if you steal KNOWLEDGE from your children?
"God is love", isn't that a fundamental thesis?

Can you elaborate on healthy or unhealthy fear?
Is fear of a gun healthy? Is fear of the unknown healthy?
Is curiousity unhealthy? Is overcoming fear healthy? Is fear of authority unhealthy?
 
2005-08-15 03:25:11 PM
walkingtall:

It was about how many frauds there have been in the science and intellectual community



The religious communitty is fraut with charlitons so you really have very little if any substantial truth to stand on.
You dislike of education is a curious thing. Are you in some way intimidated? No need to be, you can always find a communitty college to get into.
Knowledge is not an evil thing. The dangerous and evil elements are the people who would condemn any search for scientific truths. These things occured before the Age of Enlightenment. You sound as if you think the churches were right to put Copernicus in jail.
 
2005-08-15 03:25:33 PM
Isn't the anthropic principle the one that states the entire universe was made so that one day I could post on fark?
 
2005-08-15 03:26:02 PM
The most recent findings about the curvature of the universe have come from WMAP and are after the dark energy discovery. In fact, before dark energy, we just couldnt find enough matter out there to make the universe flat, although measurements of the cosmic microwave background indicated that it was at least close to flat. It was a problem until you added in dark energy, which gave you enough "stuff" in the universe to match up to curvature measurements, at least to first order. WMAP results indicate that the universe is either flat or has very slight positive curvature.

And I doubt that its really that simple as you make it, although I'm not a quantum cosmologist, so I cant say for sure. But I bet the principles are what you are guessing at, but with a few twists that make life hard for people doing this.
 
2005-08-15 03:28:21 PM
I wonder if Bevets is going to show up to this one.

/not going to summon him though
 
2005-08-15 03:28:33 PM
Robobagpiper

Personally, I'm skeptical of the "many worlds" approach. I have this sneaking suspicion that a GUT will show that our physical constants are the only logically self-consistent set.

(By "many worlds", do you mean theories in which there are more than one logically self-consistent set of constants, or theories in which there exists more than one "universe", or the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, or what?)

You may or may not be interested to know that while it was once hoped that string theory, the leading candidate for a "theory of everything", would dictate only one set of self-consistent constants, the theory now appears to be leading farther away from that dream: see the "string anthropic landscape" and this NYT article. (The "landscapists" are still in the minority, but the theory has less support for "a unique set of constants" than it once did.)
 
2005-08-15 03:30:13 PM
Felgraf:

There is actually a really interesting "proof" about free will and particles out there by Conway:

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~jas/one/freewill-theorem.html

If you've taken some quantum mechanics yet you should be able to follow. I don't buy it (I think the question by the physicist at the end about randomness isnt well addressed by Conway), but its at least interesting.
 
2005-08-15 03:31:57 PM
You may or may not be interested to know that while it was once hoped that string theory, the leading candidate for a "theory of everything", would dictate only one set of self-consistent constants, the theory now appears to be leading farther away from that dream: see the "string anthropic landscape" and this NYT article. (The "landscapists" are still in the minority, but the theory has less support for "a unique set of constants" than it once did.)

Yeah, I was aware of that. It doesn't mollify my sneaking suspicion, though. *grin*
 
2005-08-15 03:31:58 PM
 
2005-08-15 03:31:59 PM
allanhowls

OscarTamerz: ...supercooled liquid helium climbs up the side of the Dewar flask...

Mental note: never let OscarTamerz mix my drink. Ouch.

If I understand correctly supercooled liquid helium is more expensive than Napoleon or even Louis XIV brandy so you're pretty safe. People always get freaked out about the electron gun firing through two holes where some electons go through both holes but if you close one then they all go through the other one. The one that is really freaky is putting a flask of liquid helium in a larger flask of liquid helium and if the level in the smaller flask is higher then it crawls up the side and into the larger flask but you can reverse the flow by dropping the smaller flask so its level is lower and then the helium goes from outside to inside. If the top of the flask is sealed so it can't escape does it still climb up the side, I wonder?
 
2005-08-15 03:32:21 PM
polythene_pam:

-God doesn't exist, I know this for sure, 100%
-Christianity is evil because the inquisition
-and Dan Brown told me
-I hate christians because they're always trying to tell me that what I should believe
-I always tell them what they should believe
-Some (many) christians are idiots, therefore they are ALL idiots
-Atheism is the ONLY true religion. Ayn Rand told me so
-I am not an atheist hypocrite

/read the article... it was dumb.
//prefer the 'nothing exists but me, and i'm just a brain in a jar' theory.


What the hell was that?
 
2005-08-15 03:34:07 PM
These scientific theories are full of holes.

Therefore, the Bible is true.

I love logic, don't you?
 
2005-08-15 03:34:57 PM
OscarTamerz:

If the top of the flask is sealed so it can't escape does it still climb up the side, I wonder?



I would think so, but if the top is sealed does it stay at the top or move back down?
 
2005-08-15 03:35:56 PM
smeegle: You sound as if you think the churches were right to put Copernicus in jail.

Except they didn't, smeegle...

Copernicus died right at the time the heliocentric theory was published...

Galileo was the one who got the godsmack...;)
 
2005-08-15 03:37:54 PM
whidbey: Galileo was the one who got the godsmack...;)

Hmm I was aware of Gallileo's trouble but I also thought I read somewhere that Copernicus got into some flack with the church also.
 
2005-08-15 03:40:34 PM
They still haven't answered my #1 question: Where'd all the shiat that made up the Big Bang come from?

/Maybe we'll all find out some day.
//Maybe not.
///Still curious.
 
2005-08-15 03:44:00 PM
whidbey: Copernicus died right at the time the heliocentric theory was published...
My bad, you are right. I though he got in trouble for the Little Commentary.

www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Copernicus.html
Copernicus is said to have received a copy of the printed book, consisting of about 200 pages written in Latin, for the first time on his deathbed. He died of a cerebral haemorrhage.
 
2005-08-15 03:44:39 PM
Mr. Anon
It wasn't Abraham, is was Jacob, who was then given the name Israel (literal translation = struggle with god, which is one of the main idealogical differences between Judaism and Islam, which means submit to Allah, or so I've been told) and it wasn't God, but an Angel. Not to detract from your point, just don't like people getting my Torah wrong.
 
2005-08-15 03:45:00 PM
Copernicus waited until he was pretty sure he was near death to go ahead with publishing his theory. Being a priest he'd really get it bad if the church disagreed. As for Galileo, he got it bad in part because his father had already had issues with church leadership. His father worked on refining Pythagorean tuning and theory about same. This didn't sit well with some in the church. His father also told young Galileo to not bother with math and study something else. Galileo didn't listen.
 
2005-08-15 03:45:26 PM
They still haven't answered my #1 question: Where'd all the shiat that made up the Big Bang come from?

In a flat universe, the positive matter/dark matter/dark energy came from the negative gravitational energy, and vice-versa. It's quite elegant, actually.
 
2005-08-15 03:45:46 PM
danlpoon:

I'd argue that the UCC actually worships Jesus

The Uniform Commercial Code is almost entirely religio-neutral. Thanks.


I read that, and laughed. Then I was quite sad knowing that things like UCC and Delaware Corps are imprinted on my brain.

/where's my red stapler
 
2005-08-15 03:47:42 PM
Kolb dryly replied: "I'm not willing to bet my life on it yet. I would bet my collaborators' lives, though."

Outstanding! (He must have learned that one from observing the religionists.)
 
2005-08-15 03:49:50 PM
Damitol! Is walkingtall gonna come back in here and set us straight, or WHAT??!!
 
2005-08-15 03:50:03 PM
Bah... You made Walking Tall run away... Shame on you! :)
 
2005-08-15 03:51:40 PM
walkingtall:

I watched a very interesting man selling his book on CSPAN this weekend. It was about how many frauds there have been in the science and intellectual community and how the people who have stood up and stated that it was made up garbage have suffered. Nobody likes to be told what you believe is garbage and intellectuals are no different. Many modern theories have no basis in science but are simply beleived because they have always been believed even when counter evidence exists it is ignored. Happens in every human endeavor and science is NO different.

Because religion has no charlatans...

 
2005-08-15 03:52:44 PM
Has walkingtall backed out so quickly? He must be slipping.

I was hoping for something as brilliant as "I can't be expected to monitor my kids' viewing habits, so these filthy shows should be taken off the air."

Then again, "all scientists are evil atheists who hate God" is pretty out there. Remember folks, "intellectual" is a bad word.
 
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