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(ArriveNet)   Your tax dollars hard at work: The Denver Public Library promoting a plan that would make seven of its branches "Spanish focused," banishing English language books to the backroom   (press.arrivenet.com) divider line 556
    More: Asinine  
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5356 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Aug 2005 at 3:53 PM (9 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2005-08-08 05:32:35 PM  
"Dey took er Jibs!!!"

"Dey took er Jibs!!!"
 
2005-08-08 05:35:36 PM  
Why do I suspect that the English Onlys really don't give a shiat about imigrants at all? This thread has the "we're in Iraq 'cause we export democracy and really, REALLY care about the ragheads" feel to it. I think mostly it's the fear that some made-up sacrosanct conception of "America" with June and Ward boffing discretly missionary-style while Wally and the Beav play catch in the yard while be ruined if there are people in the country who don't look all middle-class and honky.
 
2005-08-08 05:36:18 PM  
Raw McKuen: No knock to the Spanish-speaking populace (or Spanish-speaking world in general), it's just that the majority of folks we have here in California (and presumably elsewhere) are Mexican peasants with no greater goal than to make more money than they did at home (then wire it home), have lots of kids and hope to find cheap second-hand children's clothes and strollers at the thrift store and garage sales. Stock up on the rest at the dollar-store, then wait for someone who hires illegals.


Dude, you should see all the rich Hispanics in La Jolla and Carmel Valley. Also, illegals don't participate in censuses. 25% of teh latest census participants in SD are Latino.

Talk about segregation. You really should leave your white ghetto. There are plenty of hispanics living LEGALLY in Cali.
 
2005-08-08 05:36:41 PM  
FarkinFarker

Any college bound high school graduate in the past ?? years.

Being in that category has only made me more sympathetic to those trying to learn in a language not their own. I had a hard enough time just learning to speak the language, let along trying to understand complex concepts and instruction.
 
2005-08-08 05:37:14 PM  
FarkinFarker

It's a lot easier to get people to learn something when you can carry on a conversation and socialize with them from the get go. Nevermind those people will have cases where stuff just confuses them even if they have a grasp on the language. Never hurts when they know they have someone to get things explanation from. Like me and some cabbies here in Chicago. I speak Arabic, and besides being loved by the cabbies, there's been times when one has asked me what's going on with something. Isn't that they don't get English, just that as immigrants there's stuff they don't really understand. Sometimes I explain in English, sometimes it's just easier to do in Arabic.
 
2005-08-08 05:37:41 PM  
Forget making the English language official.

What we REALLY need to do is ban the metric system.

USA! USA! USA!
 
2005-08-08 05:37:50 PM  
We have a ton of mexicans here in colorado, it would be a good thing in my opinion. I am sure the libraries they are going to change are in latin populated areas, they aren't going to do it in the middle of highlands ranch. i dont see what the problem is.
 
2005-08-08 05:38:13 PM  
My wife is chinese I have been trying to learn Cantonese for going on 7 years, Granted it is not used much here in the states but it comes in handy when my mother inlaw insults me.
 
2005-08-08 05:38:47 PM  
UncleFriendly:

He was at work around 8 in the morning and worked until around 10 pm every night. He came here during a civil war so that his family wouldn't be killed. He has no time to learn English, but his kids speak it fluently. I welcome a hard working, decent guy like him to our country, even if he can't speak our language.

By all means, let's setup a library so he can read books in the spare time he doesn't have.
 
2005-08-08 05:39:09 PM  
plastroncafe

Initiatve for what? Learning Sicilian? Sorry, my Every Child Left Behind school only offered Spanish and French. And as for learning from my family? They were too ashamed to teach it.

And yes, that's the point of the school system, to teach everyone.


This is not a place to debate the inherent unconstitionality of a federal department of education, however I belive that is the core of the problem, on the current level however:

So because you wanted to learn a language, they should have forced every property owner in the same school disctrict as you to pay a bit more, just so you can learn? The point of public education is to provide enough literacy and history and math so that a person can vote and understand their roles as a citizen, anything more is extra.
 
2005-08-08 05:39:22 PM  
This isn't an issue about immigrants living here legally or illegally--although I'd prefer they were here with a valid visa, as would anyone with a functional brain--this is about coming here (legally or otherwise) and learning how to speak English, even if in a passing manner. And if someone was here illegally, if they knew English relatively well, that would only serve to assist them if they were to be apprehended. We're more likely to not deport an illegal who can speak English than one who cannot.
 
2005-08-08 05:39:39 PM  
cargrrl82, you've hit on a point that is very, very important. I'll repeat it here for the benefit of the thread:

Most major city libraries in the world carry books in English and often times other languages. They're libraries, repositories of books, they could care bugger all about every book being in the same language.

Quite right.
 
2005-08-08 05:39:53 PM  
Gahbrone

Took er jibs? I thought they were taking the mainsails.

/thank you, I'll be here all week, try the veal
 
2005-08-08 05:40:47 PM  
canyoneer

Yeah, well, when I lived in Germany I spoke and comprehended and read and wrote German, and didn't expect the local authorities to open libraries with English language books in them on my behalf. This is like a guest coming into your home and demanding you repaint the walls, or you repainting the walls to match the color in their home so they won't be uncomfortable with your choice of color.

Now that I've said that, I will say it is my belief that most Mexican immigrants have no intention of ever assimilating, and they don't come here to become Americans. They come here for money and with the expectation of Reconquista and Aztlan America. That isn't immigration, that's an invasion. Fair enough, but when touchy-feely Mayors abet the invasion, it is bullshiat.

Recall Hickenlooper, and impeach Bush for not securing the borders and pushing CAFTA. Jail Clinton for NAFTA. Enough is enough.


Actually, it's kind of like your roomate insisting that they have access to the living room as well, since they pay the rent too.

AFAIK, your beliefs(which are beliefs by the way, because you don't know what you're talking about and haven't examined the facts) are utterly irrelevant. Good day.
 
2005-08-08 05:41:44 PM  
I'm guessing that the branches that they're proposing to change over are ones that are primarily used by native Spanish speaking people anyhow. If English speaking people are staying home and not using the Library but the Spanish immigrant population is coming in all the time, then it's all for the best.

/imho
 
2005-08-08 05:42:41 PM  
canyoneer:

Now that I've said that, I will say it is my belief that most Mexican immigrants have no intention of ever assimilating, and they don't come here to become Americans. They come here for money and with the expectation of Reconquista and Aztlan America. That isn't immigration, that's an invasion. Fair enough, but when touchy-feely Mayors abet the invasion, it is bullshiat.

Recall Hickenlooper, and impeach Bush for not securing the borders and pushing CAFTA. Jail Clinton for NAFTA. Enough is enough.


Meh. Let them come! The people who are already living here will have the advantage long enough into the future that their descendants will be just as different/unrecognizable as any immigrant today!

Just don't lavish them with social services please!
 
2005-08-08 05:44:14 PM  
plastroncafe:

My grandfather was the first child in his family born on US soil. His family wanted him to fit in so well they never taught him to read his native tongue.

My grandfather was born in Portugal. My father was born on US soil. He spoke Portuguese as a child (this was in the 1920s-1940s) and never learned to read it, because no one in the family could read.

As a result my father was not raised with any knowledge of the language, save for some rather choice insults and swears.

Heh, heh -- I learned all those, too. Didn't know they were swear words until later.

Me? I've got two words, that are bastardizations at best.

Why? Because of this English Only dreck.


No, because you didn't decide to pick up any of the language on your own. Are you waiting for someone to stick a community college catalog into your hands or what?

I'd love to know how many English Only people can actually speak another language fluently. Or have ever even tried to tried learn one.
Bet the number isn't high.


You may be right. But be careful between the English Only activists and those who can only speak English.

Well, from my grandfather making 3rd grade, to my dad getting out of high school early, I'm the first to go on to college. UC Berkeley, no less. And guess what I did? I took a bunch of classes in Portuguese (and other languages).

Haven't you ever been to someplace, like, say, the Mission District in San Francisco, where the overeducated white kids flaunt their cultural sensitivity by speaking perfect Spanish to the guys at the burrito counter? "Si, senor. Burrito con todo. Gracias."

/Still curious, in all fairness, whether there's any sort of English-language program in Mexican schools.
//Yes, I taught ESL, and I can manage in Spanish, Portuguese, German and even Czech, so don't give me any shiat.
 
2005-08-08 05:44:20 PM  
canyoneer
Now that I've said that, I will say it is my belief that most Mexican immigrants have no intention of ever assimilating, and they don't come here to become Americans.

So what if they come for money? They lived in the third world, do you blame them? The Salvadoreans in my area are here, for the most part, to avoid getting shot. They work the shiat jobs that most folks don't want to work. The only ones I have a problem with are the ones who come here with the intent of propagating their Central-American gangs. That's a very small percentage of them. Most make an honest living cleaning toilets while their kids learn English, get an education and work their way up the ladder.

By the way, the rest of your diatribe makes you look nuts.
 
2005-08-08 05:44:32 PM  
Screw that. Let's just give out free leaf blowers and picante sauce.
 
2005-08-08 05:44:57 PM  
This is not a place to debate the inherent unconstitionality of a federal department of education, however I belive that is the core of the problem, on the current level however:

So because you wanted to learn a language, they should have forced every property owner in the same school disctrict as you to pay a bit more, just so you can learn? The point of public education is to provide enough literacy and history and math so that a person can vote and understand their roles as a citizen, anything more is extra.


Sadly, my school was woefully incapable of doing that either. Though they were rather stringent with their Phys Ed requirement for graduation though. No diploma without a passing grade in Gym.

Got to love football towns.

But now that I'm a single individual who happens to be childless, I'd have to say yes. Yes, I would pay a bit more so that someone could learn.

A world with fewer asshats, is a world worth investing in.
 
2005-08-08 05:46:52 PM  
eraser8:

cargrrl82, you've hit on a point that is very, very important. I'll repeat it here for the benefit of the thread:

Most major city libraries in the world carry books in English and often times other languages. They're libraries, repositories of books, they could care bugger all about every book being in the same language.

Quite right.


Yes, but are their libraries "English-focused"?

Didn't think so.
 
2005-08-08 05:47:28 PM  
Bah! Who cares. We'll all be speaking spanglish soon enough anyway. Barely time enough to learn to dance salsa.
 
2005-08-08 05:48:03 PM  
2005-08-08 05:44:14 PM Raw McKuen [Total Fark]

//Yes, I taught ESL, and I can manage in Spanish, Portuguese, German and even Czech, so don't give me any shiat.


You, sir, are one of the fine folk I mentioned. Teaching ESL is indeed "the way to go"(tm), and I only wish there were more who did so.
 
2005-08-08 05:49:20 PM  
feepness

It isn't like the whole Denver public library system is going over to being primarily Spanish books. Who cares if a small branch is changing its focus to better fit the local population? A book is a book.
 
2005-08-08 05:49:36 PM  
When I go tho mexico I speak spanish. I end up eating alot of ranch style eggs and I have to drink two beers at a time. But I don't complain about them not speaking english.
 
2005-08-08 05:50:55 PM  
shipud:

Dude, you should see all the rich Hispanics in La Jolla and Carmel Valley. Also, illegals don't participate in censuses. 25% of teh latest census participants in SD are Latino.

Talk about segregation. You really should leave your white ghetto. There are plenty of hispanics living LEGALLY in Cali.


I totally agree. I started my post with "in these parts," meaning the part of California between Santa Maria and Salinas. To which I think my post is accurate. Obviously, there are hispanics in the middle and upper classes all over. As there should be.
 
2005-08-08 05:51:52 PM  
Oracle of Bandwidth: he point of public education is to provide enough literacy and history and math so that a person can vote and understand their roles as a citizen, anything more is extra.


Which is exactly why the US imports its scientists and engineers.
 
2005-08-08 05:52:06 PM  
Tyee:

When I go tho mexico I speak spanish. I end up eating alot of ranch style eggs and I have to drink two beers at a time. But I don't complain about them not speaking english.

Yeah but I just wish the TJ hookers could speak better English. It just seems so cold and impersonal otheriwse.

Heh. I said TJ hooker.
 
2005-08-08 05:52:48 PM  
All that has happened here is that some public libraries in areas with a high percentage of Spanish-speaking residents have decided to stock Spanish resources so that these same residents can read a book in their native language, if they so choose. The article says nothing about "forcing", and makes no mention of how many of these people speak Spanish as a first, second, or seventh language. Nor does it say anywhere that the entire potential clientele of these libraries knows not a lick of English.

Some of you - nay, many - need to perhaps spend a little time in a library yourselves, or at least be tutored in the long lost art of reading comprehension.

In short, y'all need to relax, man.

/hates that the world is becoming more and more reactionary
 
2005-08-08 05:52:51 PM  
Raw McKuen

No, because you didn't decide to pick up any of the language on your own. Are you waiting for someone to stick a community college catalog into your hands or what?

Um, no. It's more that there was no one to learn it from. The family never used the language, and would refuse to on request. Considering it "a waste of time".

So I tried Spanish instead, because it was offered by my local school system. It's a damn shame that local school system had such a crappy English program that it made learning any other language less than pleasurable.

Haven't you ever been to someplace, like, say, the Mission District in San Francisco, where the overeducated white kids flaunt their cultural sensitivity by speaking perfect Spanish to the guys at the burrito counter? "Si, senor. Burrito con todo. Gracias."

As for where I've live? Sadly, it's neck deep in Caucasian Land, where people are still frowned upon for speaking any language other than English.
 
2005-08-08 05:53:56 PM  
cargrrl82:

Who cares if a small branch is changing its focus to better fit the local population?

The French.
 
2005-08-08 05:54:04 PM  
This is a giant straw man issue. From posts like GraphicAddiction's, you'd think lots of English speakers are insisting on turning the U.S. into Quebec, only with Spanish instead of French as the required alternative language. All that's being said is that it's not "asinine" to adapt to the fact that there are large communities in America where Spanish is predominantly spoken. Yes, it's true that people who don't speak English are at a big disadvantage in this country when it comes to landing just about any desirable career. You know what? That's the non-English speakers' problem, not yours and mine. A lot of people feel annoyed and inconvenienced when they encounter people who barely speak English; I do too. But it's only slightly less annoying to encounter people who speak English, but speak it so badly that they might as well be speaking Martian.

Don't want your tax dollars going to Spanish-language initiaves like this one? Then don't vote for politicians who whore themselves out to Spanish-language communities. Good luck finding one! Democrats and Republicans are equally at fault for this because they both want the votes.

So really, what is being argued here? That non-English speakers should learn English so they can become part of "American culture" (whatever that is)? Again, that's their problem. If they want the benefits that come with English fluency, they'll learn. (About 25% of Fark headline writers could benefit from fluency too.) That idiot PC liberals are advocating giving the country away to Spanish-speakers? Straw man. Idiot liberals want the clerk at the fast food counter to get their order right too.

Bottom line: there's nothing wrong with opening a library where people can get the Spanish-language books they're looking for, and I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary. There's plenty of great Spanish-language literature out there.
 
2005-08-08 05:54:43 PM  
Why should my children have to learn the Visigoth and Ostrogoth dialects?
 
2005-08-08 05:56:24 PM  
plastroncafe: As for where I've live? Sadly, it's neck deep in Caucasian Land, where people are still frowned upon for speaking any language other than English.


You mean the language of international business, and your homeland?

Since when did nationalism go out of style on this side of the border? (judgeing by what happens on the 5th of may not be dead other places)
 
2005-08-08 05:56:29 PM  
Hooray! Im all for equal access and all. I work in a Spanish-language area and Ive learned some phrases that help me in my job. "learn english, this is america" always strikes me as arrogance. At work, we have a shopper club, weve made them in spanish and in english. I give the spanish one to everyone, just to make em think. and to be a dick.
 
2005-08-08 05:56:48 PM  
Nuts?

http://www.colorado.edu/StudentGroups/MEChA/MEXAplana.html

El Plan de Aztlan (El Plan Espiritual de Aztlan)

In the spirit of a new people that is conscious not only of its proud historical heritage but also of the brutal gringo invasion of our territories, we, the Chicano inhabitants and civilizers of the northern land of Aztlan from whence came our forefathers, reclaiming the land of their birth and consecrating the determination of our people of the sun, declare that the call of our blood is our power, our responsibility, and our inevitable destiny.

We are free and sovereign to determine those tasks which are justly called for by our house, our land, the sweat of our brows, and by our hearts. Aztlan belongs to those who plant the seeds, water the fields, and gather the crops and not to the foreign Europeans. We do not recognize capricious frontiers on the bronze continent.

Brotherhood unites us, and love for our brothers makes us a people whose time has come and who struggles against the foreigner gabacho who exploits our riches and destroys our culture. With our heart in our hands and our hands in the soil, we declare the independence of our mestizo nation. We are a bronze people with a bronze culture. Before the world, before all of North America, before all our brothers in the bronze continent, we are a nation, we are a union of free pueblos, we are Aztlan.

-----------------------------------------------------------
And so on. Look this racist "Raza" shiat up for yourself, fellas. I really like the nifty little illustration of the Angry Aztec saying "Who's the illegal alien, PILGRIM?"

Haha.
 
2005-08-08 05:57:00 PM  
I don't quite get why so many Americans feel so threatened by this.

Is it just a Spanish thing, or would everyone feel the same if they were Swedish or Hungarian libraries?
 
2005-08-08 05:57:27 PM  
As I asked before, is there any kind of systematic English language program in Mexican schools?

I ask as an English teacher, and one who has worked in some pretty hell-bent-on-English-as-the-future language programs in Eastern Europe after the fall of communism.

I also believe there should be mandatory second-language training in US schools starting at the 1st grade. In my state, it ought to be Spanish. Learning a second language starting in high school ends up worthless.

And by learning a second language at the 1st grade, I include Spanish speakers learning English. The English/Spanish translations of stuff tends to stop right about the point where products/services are affordable to people with money.

/In this country, you gotta get the money. Then you get the power. Then you get the women.
 
2005-08-08 05:57:52 PM  
plastroncafe:

As for where I've live? Sadly, it's neck deep in Caucasian Land, where people are still frowned upon for speaking any language other than English.

Yeah that is too bad. I grew up in San Diego and speak pretty damn good Spanish, as well as a smidgen of other languages. It's a lot of fun!

Guess what? For most of them I just went to the country with a dictionary. I did get some Spanish in high-school but certainly wasn't passable until I'd spent some time in country.

Spanish only libraries won't help you learn another language. Attitude changes will.
 
2005-08-08 05:58:06 PM  
Raw McKuen:

/Still curious, in all fairness, whether there's any sort of English-language program in Mexican schools.

I highly doubt it, but I don't know. There were 2 exchange students from Juarez in my first year Spanish class. They didn't speak a lick of English. I can assure you that everyone in school knew more Spanish than those 2 did English. But they were from Juarez and all. I somehow doubt that Juarez has a very good school system.
 
2005-08-08 05:58:08 PM  
Rafe,

Point me to the Swedish section that the government paid for? Or the Italian, German, French, Swiss, Hungarian, etc etc etc...
 
2005-08-08 05:59:08 PM  
Hindmost:

I don't quite get why so many Americans feel so threatened by this.

Is it just a Spanish thing, or would everyone feel the same if they were Swedish or Hungarian libraries?


I'm not threatened. I'm just trying to support the rights of the Swedes and Hungarians.

And French.

And Japanese.

The Borneo-eans can go screw themselves though. That's right, I said it.
 
2005-08-08 06:00:13 PM  
Asinine is right.

English is our official language--or it's supposed to be. You get people coming into this country (legal or not) that are just TOO LAZY to learn the language and expect US to bow down, kiss their behinds, and print things in their language!

You want to live in America, you learn how to speak English. You can speak your native language in your home or with your buddies, but you'd better know English!

You try pulling this in another country like France. They'd be laughing at you! "Qu'est-ce que c'est? I don't think so, you arrogant American!"

/rant mode off
 
2005-08-08 06:00:18 PM  
Hindmost

Is it just a Spanish thing, or would everyone feel the same if they were Swedish or Hungarian libraries?

I think it is, the idea being that people who read and speak only Spanish are perceived (rightly or wrongly) as something of an underclass, which should not be catered to with tax dollars. I think there may even be an implicit assumption in the headline that it is foolish to construct predominantly Spanish-language libraries because Spanish speakers don't really care about reading books.
 
2005-08-08 06:01:52 PM  
A) Yay for legal immigration!

B) LEARN THE farkING LANGUAGE, MOTHERfarkERS!
 
2005-08-08 06:02:31 PM  
Raw McKuen:

I also believe there should be mandatory second-language training in US schools starting at the 1st grade. In my state, it ought to be Spanish. Learning a second language starting in high school ends up worthless.

Exactly.
 
2005-08-08 06:03:03 PM  
Hindmost: I don't quite get why so many Americans feel so threatened by this.

Oh yeah... read the post above yours as well.
 
2005-08-08 06:03:55 PM  
Most Mexican/Americans are more than one generation away from ancestors who lived in a primarily non-english speaking land. I am only one generation away from ancestors who spoke nothing but Swedish, yet I don't speak Swedish...why? Because my Grandfather chose to become apart of THIS culture and learned it's traditions, customs, and other traits including the language. He never dreamed of expecting this culture to change to accomodate HIM. He was proud to make the changes and proud to work hard to become a citizen.
 
2005-08-08 06:04:01 PM  
Hindmost: don't quite get why so many Americans feel so threatened by this.

Is it just a Spanish thing, or would everyone feel the same if they were Swedish or Hungarian libraries?



It's a spanish thing, Middle America is just trying to distance it self from all the brown people
 
2005-08-08 06:04:26 PM  
I don't quite get why so many Americans feel so threatened by this.

Is it just a Spanish thing, or would everyone feel the same if they were Swedish or Hungarian libraries?


Mexicans are brown. More so than Hungarians.

/obvious
//nothing to be ashamed of
 
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