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(WGAL Channel)   Halloween parade cancelled after reverend enters anti-abortion float, "Dr. Butcher's Chop Shop of Choice Cuts"   (thewgalchannel.com) divider line 694
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16681 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Jul 2005 at 4:55 PM (8 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2005-07-29 12:25:55 AM
Clavis

Not too very long ago the only major mainstream Christian sect did not baptise the newly born for a month. It was the belief in that time that the soul was only truly lodged in the body upon baptism. High infant mortality and all that jazz.

Morality and mortality change.
 
2005-07-29 12:26:07 AM
Cloudchaser

What is so valuable about a human life anyway? We have legal wars where we kill our enemies. We have executions where we kill our prisoners. Many people kill themselves.

Abortion is the best thing that could happen to a child. They don't exist. They are free. If you think that all life should be saved, then hold a lit match under your hand for 30 seconds. If you can last that long.

Some life is bad life.
 
2005-07-29 12:26:21 AM
2

broodmare?
 
2005-07-29 12:26:36 AM
DRTFA

So sorry. Abortion is a womans choice. It is a choice I could, would never make. But that's just me.
 
2005-07-29 12:27:34 AM
Main Entry: broodmare
Pronunciation: 'brd-"mar, -"mer
Function: noun
: a mare kept for breeding
 
2005-07-29 12:32:08 AM
Simple questions. Just looking for help. Often I hear of people charged with manslaughter when a car crash causes a miscarriage. But I always wonder, "what if the woman was on the way to the abortion clinic"

The the mother of the driver who's fault it was is guilty, since if the driver was aborted it would not have happened. In fact, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot are reported to have had mothers.
 
2005-07-29 12:34:42 AM
Not too very long ago the only major mainstream Christian sect did not baptise the newly born for a month

"The only major mainstream Christian sect"? What would that be? There's a few of 'em, actually.

Anyway, a month or so, huh...the Koran says that a fetus is not properly considered an individual, fully-formed person until forty days after conception, when Allah imparts the "breath of life". Yeah, though, about a month or so there...I remember hearing something about some of the animistic sects believing something along the same lines...
 
2005-07-29 12:39:18 AM
Cloudchaser_the_red_wolf_furry: The DNA at 5 minutes after conception is identical to the DNA 85 years after conception. The colour of the hair, eyes, and even personality traits are stamped in the genetic code at conception. What kind of DNA is it - human. Is it growing? Yes. So it is alive. It is self directed. These are all facts, not opinions. That means a human being is being killed.

And if I test your hair, it will have the same human DNA as the rest of your body. Does that mean you're killing a living thing when you get a haircut?

Your entire argument relies on the question of when human life begins. Pro-lifers claim life begins at conception, pro-choicers believe it begins later. There is no scientific evidence to support either argument, therefore it becomess a moral decision and should be left to the one having the abortion.

Your other arguments (not seeing the doctor, people wanting to adopt, and botched abortions) are meaningless in this discussion.
 
2005-07-29 12:41:14 AM
The support of the fundies really turns people away from a "pro-life" stance, which has a conservative undertone to it. I'm having trouble siding on this debate.

The fetus, whether there being any brain functions or not, interferes with its host's health. Wouldn't the host have the right not to be subjected to this? I guess these are the consequences of having consenting intercourse which is in most cases.

Kids that are put through foster care have a good chance of living troubled lives and it could be a good anwser to over population. Look at China. Abstinence is obviously a flawd solution. Is it a moral question that is being debated? Poverty could be reduced with as the average person's resources increase.

I think early abortion, before the brain devolopes is a good
solution to this debate, both sides get a little.

/Just my opinion
 
2005-07-29 12:41:37 AM
2wolves

what do you want me to say about the woman? You think I have no regard for her? You are sorely mistaken if so. Placing her feelings and mental state above the life of a child are two levels of priority.

I have a real problem starting down the "life of the mother" exception. It places a lot of subjectives into what is endangering the life. I dont like being so black and white on such issues, but we are already to the poing I believe that many abortions exceptions regarding the "health" of the mother include her emotional, financial and other non life threatening issues.

I might be willing to concede a life of the mother exemption if it was truly the life of the mother and not some nebulous concept of "endangering the life" (drinking coffee supposedly endangers my life)

I could also go with a incest/rape exception as well if it would eliminate elective abortions because someone uses abortions as a means of birth control or other "lifestyle" choice. If this was the case 98% of aborted "fetus'" would get to live.

Any reduction in the current situation would be better than current.

We all make choices in this world and we have to live with them. Justifying and excusing something in your head that your heart knows is wrong is just an escape.
 
2005-07-29 12:43:24 AM
Riche:
Then I'd think you'd enjoy Hell House


omg is that a fundie way of using violence and graphic images for their cause...why that's terrible (end sarcasm)....ugh, this sickens me, they use the exact graphic images they biatch about being on tv and in video games and use them this way so they send a positive message...through violents...wtf... i question people that follow the same religion as me. fark'n stupid. kinda like Jesus Chainsaw Massacre eh?
 
2005-07-29 12:44:41 AM
What would you rather do?

1. be born in Viet-nam and be sold into child prostitution.
2. be born in France but get burned to death in a fire at the age of 12.
3. be born in Mexico and spend your life picking strawberries for americans.
4. be born into a ghett crack family and get shot dead on your 18th birthday.
5. be aborted.

WARNING: REAL LIFE MAY NOT BE SUITABLE FOR CHILDREN.
ALWAYS READ THE LABEL. CONTAINS RELIGIONOXIMINE.
 
2005-07-29 12:47:40 AM
We all make choices in this world and we have to live with them. Justifying and excusing something in your head that your heart knows is wrong is just an escape.

So is getting a pacemaker. WTF? Is this 1600? It pumps blood, that's all it does.
 
2005-07-29 12:50:17 AM
6.Be adopted by a family that will love you.
 
2005-07-29 12:50:58 AM
p_a

Well if I had to choose, I would say #3. But thanks for giving ME the CHOICE.

I would add a #6. Biggot who stereotypes those gettting abortions.

It certainly makes me feel better that the poor fetus's dont have to be burdened to make that decision.
 
2005-07-29 12:52:37 AM
P_A

So is getting a pacemaker. WTF? Is this 1600? It pumps blood, that's all it does.

Well that puts that to rest. Thanks for setting me straight.
 
2005-07-29 12:53:09 AM
And another thing (yes yes)

If God had his way then 70% of all children would die of natural causes. Hospitals save millions more than they abort. Think how many people actually live in America, then look at how many lived in 1800.

I'm all forbleeding heart liberalism, but there are people already alive who need help. We don't need more people, we need less.
 
2005-07-29 12:54:51 AM
A bit over the top there Reverand.
 
2005-07-29 12:58:14 AM
P_A

Im glad you've got God down.

By your logic we should euthanize the chronically ill. (however, I dont think I want you deciding who is chronically ill)
 
2005-07-29 01:00:28 AM
Oh for Farks sake, people on both sides of this argument have valid points and their viewpoints need to be respected or this issue will be the nail in America's coffin.

MAKE ABORTION OBSOLETE. Think about it, do those that give money to planned parenthood believe that a "Congratulations, you had an abortion" card is an appropriate Hallmark moment? No they do not.

Everybody on both sides should be able to agree on this: By the time society is talking about abortion it is too late, an unwanted child has already been conceived.

Can we all agree that the conception of an unwanted child is a societal failure?

Yes (except for maybe a few idealogical nutjobs on the ends).

So, why do we argue without end about the symptom (abortion) of unwanted conception when unwanted conception is, in and of itself, the societal illness?

Do Americans have any desire to solve problems? Or do we just want to argue without end? Appearances tell me that we just want to argue unendingly.

Deal with the problem, not with the symptom. Education and community outreach. Teach teenagers how not to get pregnant, abstinence, contraception, whatever floats your boat. Just teach people not to conceive children that they don't want.

Pro-life, Pro-choice? Quit putting all of your hard-earned money into the hands of lawyers and the legal system and start putting that money into your community, let it be used to stop unwanted conceptions.

Or argue incessantly and don't ever solve the real problem.

MAKE ABORTION OBSOLETE. That should be the goal of all Americans, left, right, middle. Make it obsolete.
 
2005-07-29 01:03:02 AM
as a pro-choice, bush hating baptist from georgia (sounds hard to believe right?), let me toss everyone this quote from Good Omens about beliefs and religions:

"Most of the members of the covent were old-fashioned Satanists, like their parents and grandparents before them. They'd been brought up to it and weren't, when you got right down to it, particularly evil. Human beings mostly aren't. They just get carried away by new ideas, like dressing up in jackboots and shooting people, or dressing up in white sheets and lynching people, or dressing up in tie-dye jeans and playing guitars at people. Offer people a new creed with a costume and their hearts and minds will follow." -Good Omens by Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman

with that said, if your teenage daughter is raped by some crazy man, are you gonna let her give birth to the child of a psycho rapist? now take a look, everything in your world is upside down. lets see how pro-life you really are?
 
2005-07-29 01:05:10 AM
Normy
Well that puts that to rest. Thanks for setting me straight.

Oh, so that's not what you meant? If by heart you mean 'basic instinct' then I say we kill the arabs. Look at them, all brown and foreign.

Well if I had to choose, I would say #3. But thanks for giving ME the CHOICE.


IThe real child-prostitutes didn't get a choice. Neither did you. It's random, dimwit.

I would add a #6. Biggot who stereotypes those gettting abortions.

Huh?


By your logic we should euthanize the chronically ill. (however, I dont think I want you deciding who is chronically ill)


We do. Many terminally ill patients ask for 'extra' morhine or imilar relief. It happns behind closed doors, it's happened as long as man has lived in houses. I'd want to die if life became to painful. The reason it's not in the law is becasue there is, as you crudely put it, a sippery slope to be avoided.

Many 'healthy' people choose sucicide. Not all people live as pleasantly as you do. Abortion is a pain-free solution to an unwanted human.
 
2005-07-29 01:06:32 AM
Pagan_pharmaceuticals

Un-wanted contraception wont just go away. Therefore, even reduced, abortion is not an obesolete issue.
 
2005-07-29 01:10:25 AM
Number of people in this thread against abortion: 213

Number of people in this thread who have adopted crack babies, abandoned female Chinese babies, or orphans from impoverished and/or war-torn nations: 0

Number of self-righteous, ignorant, bible-thumping, intellectual peasants who need to STFU or contribute to a productive solution if they don't like the problem: 213

Margin of error: +/- 3 morons
 
2005-07-29 01:11:10 AM
Nimnom

Yep, but it is something we could work towards together, instead of argueing incessantly and solving nothing.
 
2005-07-29 01:12:21 AM
ABORTION SHOULD ONLY BE ALLOWED IF THE MOTHER IS A FUNDY.

WE CAN'T KEEP KILLING POTENTIAL FREE THINKERS, THE FUNDIES WILL GAIN MORE CONTROL IF WE DO.

I WOULD PREFER MANDATORY CASTRATION OF ALL FUNDIES.
 
2005-07-29 01:13:04 AM
whoflungpoop:
Margin of error: +/- 3 morons

LOL, golden. props to you.
 
2005-07-29 01:13:51 AM
whoflungpoop writes: Number of people in this thread against abortion

Your logic is...completely absent from that post.

Should we kill the homeless to solve that problem too?
 
2005-07-29 01:15:03 AM
Should we kill the homeless to solve that problem too?

Only if they are FUNDIES!
 
2005-07-29 01:17:34 AM
Normy
Im glad you've got God down.

Don't try and scare me, punk. It's a nice little sarcastic non - repy, the world's finest pshycological trick.

Rule 1 of Religion club. God is always right.
Rule 2 of Religion club. God is always right.
Rule 3 of Religion club. Do as the man says, he is at one with God.
Rule 4 of Religion club. God is always right.
 
2005-07-29 01:17:38 AM
P_A

What you have previously implied is that you know what's best for the child, after picking out extreme examples.

What about another choice.

Say #7. Kid of a rich family that could afford to give the child anything they want but just didn't want to be burdened with a child for another 2 or 3 years. Sure would suck to be that kid.....

Also, the people (suicide and terminally ill) you talk about have the choice to kill themselves.

You are presuming what is best for the baby without giving them the choice. Granted they are incapable of a decision, but just to be safe, lets kill them. You just know that your world will be better without them.
 
2005-07-29 01:21:36 AM
I'll make you a deal:

Keep your abortion float out of my Halloween parade, and I won't create life in your cathedral.
 
2005-07-29 01:22:04 AM
Paranoid_Android writes: I'd want to die if life became to painful.

Would you want your family to kill you if your life became too painful...for them? That is, should they be able to pull the plug or exercise an option of death in order to serve their own convenience?
 
2005-07-29 01:24:19 AM
Sorry to get all worked up. Back to rational debate.

Normy

Say #7. Kid of a rich family that could afford to give the child anything they want but just didn't want to be burdened with a child for another 2 or 3 years. Sure would suck to be that kid.....


Yes, to be safe we should kill them.

The rich aren't rich becasue they deserve it, they're rich becasue they expolit other people. Really. We write memos, trade stocks and play on computers while the rest of the world works in the fields, or makes cheap consumer goods in sweat-shops. Perhaps it's bad for the rich kid, but abortion means extra space for the poor, extra choice for the poor. And some poeple are really poor, and would rather have never been born. I say we give them the freedom of eternal rest, not force them into a life becasue of our own moral satisfaction.
 
2005-07-29 01:25:46 AM
Sorry to get all worked up back there. Back to rational debate.

Normy

Say #7. Kid of a rich family that could afford to give the child anything they want but just didn't want to be burdened with a child for another 2 or 3 years. Sure would suck to be that kid.....


Yes, to be safe we should kill them.

The rich aren't rich becasue they deserve it, they're rich becasue they expolit other people. Really. We write memos, trade stocks and play on computers while the rest of the world works in the fields, or makes cheap consumer goods in sweat-shops. Perhaps it's bad for the rich kid, but abortion means extra space for the poor, extra choice for the poor. And some poeple are really poor, and would rather have never been born. I say, instead of forcing them into a life becasue of our own moral satisfaction, we give them the freedom of eternal rest,
 
2005-07-29 01:26:25 AM
Normy:
You just know that your world will be better without them

well yeah, your example aside. if you are not ready for a child, then yes, that's what you're doing. granted abortion shouldn't be used as birth control, but more as a last resort.
 
2005-07-29 01:30:19 AM
poop

The sad thing about adoption in the US is that it is so difficult to do. Any idiot can have a kid naturally, but if you are looking to adopt to get a child out of a bad situation, you are put through the wringer. Interviewed numerous times, finanicial background checks, psychological testing, paperwork, paperwork.

My wife and I have several friends who have adopted or been foster parents. They tell horror stories about the incompetence and failures in the system. Several people we know have adopted from Russia and China and had a much easier time. Especially, since you know that once you leave the foreign country the child is yours. In the US you are always worried that the one of the birth parents will want the child back years later, thus destroying the family again.

My wife and I have been having trouble getting pregnant and are now starting to consider adoption.

So... stop being so pious about people you know nothing about. Based upon your attitude, I would say you are firmly in your "0" category not contributing to solutions yourself, but instead spouting out nonsense just to piss people off.
 
2005-07-29 01:31:20 AM
Paranoid_Android writes: I say we give them the freedom of eternal rest, not force them into a life becasue of our own moral satisfaction.

That's just insane. By that logic, I can kill you and claim that I had no malice in my heart. I was just giving you the freedom of eternal rest.

I wonder how your family would react to my generosity.
 
2005-07-29 01:33:18 AM
Would you want your family to kill you if your life became too painful...for them? That is, should they be able to pull the plug or exercise an option of death in order to serve their own convenience?

Hell yes. I am lucky that I can trust my family any day of the week with that one. But it's a different issue.

Your argument has a perfect counter: would you want to be born into a family of peadophiles? That is, that people should be able to create entire human lives for their own conveiniance? Becasue they can. And they do.

All pain happens in life. Death is painless - dying is what hurts. Arbortion is death-deluxe: none of the pain, all the benifits.
 
2005-07-29 01:35:14 AM
Paranoid_Android

This idea that being poor somehow means that life is just a cesspit of torment is inherently wrong. It is quite possible to be extremely poor and still be happy and healthy.

It is only those that are exploited by the rich that have real crappy lives. Should poor people that are born into virtual slave labor be aborted for their own good?

I think not, how about if rich people whose parents became rich off the backs of virtual slave labor are aborted? Actually I wouldn't agree with that either.

How bout if rich people start paying livable wages to everybody and stop destroying the environments in which poor people live and nobody gets aborted? Now that is an idealogy I could get on board with!! WOOt!
 
2005-07-29 01:40:27 AM
700+ posts and all I see is whiners.

Drop all your stupid arguments and worship me.

/Also send money
 
2005-07-29 01:43:55 AM
P_A

One man's exploiter is another man's provider of a wage.

In general western culture was at the same point in technology and wealth as those you are saying are poor. Developement takes time in places. 50 years ago places like taiwan, korea and singapore were very backwater but because of free markets they are now quite wealthy.

Places with planned economies will never prosper to the extent of our current western society. If we do not "exploit" them, how will they ever build capital, skills and markets? $20 bucks to may be pocket change, but it will feed those in the poor countries for a month. Should we pay those "expoited" people well for the area they live or well for our society. If they made the same money we do, what would be the point in building factories abroad, except for charity. Why not create the same product here locally. It would certainly save alot of fuel, shipping, packaging and other expenses.

All societies have strengths and weaknesses. Each country and their workers provide needed goods and services at a price that is determined by the free market and supply and demand. You should read Thomas Sowell, he makes very good arguments in these issues.

Many places in poor countries rely on the fact that they have a lot of children. Just like the early US, families were much larger because they had to support daily life and the farm or other similar activities. There was no way that two parents and one kid could take care of all that was required just to live, prior to modern conveniences.
 
2005-07-29 01:44:03 AM
Paranoid_Android writes: Hell yes.

So even if you didn't personally want to die, you think they should be able to kill you to relieve themselves of the burden of your existence? That's quite an interesting perspective.

would you want to be born into a family of peadophiles?

What I want cannot be extrapolated to what the unborn would want -- especially considering the deadly consequences that might follow. But, to answer your question, I think I'd prefer to live than to die...even if my family were perverts.

That is, that people should be able to create entire human lives for their own conveiniance? Becasue they can. And they do.

And, how exactly is abortion going to stop that? Unless you plan to force abortions on unwilling parents, the pedophiles who choose to have children to satisfy their desires will continue to do so. They will not avail themselves of the option of abortion because it would thwart their plan for a harem of youngsters.

Death is painless...

Should murder, then, no longer be prohibited by law? Should we conclude that those killed are in a painless state and, therefore, are better off than the living?
 
2005-07-29 01:46:09 AM
eraser8
That's just insane. By that logic, I can kill you and claim that I had no malice in my heart. I was just giving you the freedom of eternal rest.

But you'd have to do it painlessly. If you could deal 100% painless death, you'd be rich. Plus, I am one of the rich bastards, and in my re-productive prime, so life is great for me.

Now there's a woman in my country who's been campaigning for years for the right to legally end her life (can't remeber her name, eventually died naturally of her illness.). She would have been grateful.

It is quite possible to be extremely poor and still be happy and healthy.

Of course it is, I agree 100%. But it is also possible to be tormented and sick.


My wife and I have been having trouble getting pregnant and are now starting to consider adoption.

Without being highly offensive - ah what the hek. I'm already highly offensive.

Why is adoption your second choice?
What is so great about making a human being with a similar face who you can call 'your own' when there's children out there already in need of a loving home?
 
2005-07-29 01:51:27 AM
That is, that people should be able to create entire human lives for their own conveiniance?

On rereading your post, I think I missed the obvious interpretation. So, I'll answer that now:

Just because life can be created for the sake convenience (in the mind of the parents) does not justify destroying life for the sake of convenience. Once a human life is created -- for whatever reason -- it should no longer be the legitimate place of any other to destroy it.
 
2005-07-29 01:52:28 AM
"Health is our greatest Wealth!"

'tis true
 
2005-07-29 01:52:48 AM
Why is adoption your second choice?
Just a choice. Perhaps a selfish one, but our choice. What is sad is that society is so degraded that you are implying that we should adopt because of the large need.

What is so great about making a human being with a similar face who you can call 'your own' when there's children out there already in need of a loving home?

The problem is that I believe there are very few infants available for adoption. Most kids in need of adoption are older and do come from troubled backgrounds etc. I would very much like to help in those situations, but honestly it scares the hell out of me. I dont think I have the skills to deal with and properly nurture a child with the types of troubles I have seen our friends deal with.
 
2005-07-29 01:55:41 AM
eraser8..., to answer your question, I think I'd prefer to live than to die...even if my family were perverts.

That's an extreme view. I woud rather remain un-bron, personally.

And the abrotion/peadophile thing is a bit of a tangent. My point is that many parents are bad people. Therefore the black-and-white "everything gets born" stance is flawed.

Should murder, then, no longer be prohibited by law...
Again, a tangent. I mean being dead, or unborn, is painless, therefore abortion is beter than a life of misery. You're really over extending my points here.
 
2005-07-29 01:57:05 AM
Paranoid_Android writes: But you'd have to do it painlessly.

I think I could guarantee that your death would -- in the long run -- be much less painful than the life from which you would be spared.

Plus, I am one of the rich bastards, and in my re-productive prime, so life is great for me.

Oh, but life might not be great in three years. And, since we don't want to risk your having to suffer, shouldn't we go ahead and put you down now? Shouldn't we give you the gift of eternal rest?

Now there's a woman in my country who's been campaigning for years for the right to legally end her life...

By proxy. But, how do you think that is relevant here?
 
2005-07-29 02:00:50 AM
I am a sanctity if life kind of guy and thus I find abortion for birth control purposes to be reprehensible. Yet I still vote democrat because I also find that criminalization of an act of desperation is pointless.

Make Abortion Obsolete. Stop the pointless arguing.
 
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