FARK.com: (1576387) Rove learned about Plame from...the press. Breathless outrage, anti-press rants in 3...2...1

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		Rove learned about Plame from...the press. Breathless outrage, anti-press rants in 3...2...1 (msnbc.msn.com)		1025
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SGF		2005-07-15 01:04:52 PM

Wasn't that Novak column released 3 days after Rove supposedly knew?

Pale_Green_Pants_With_Nobody_Inside_Them		2005-07-15 01:07:47 PM

Also, didn't novak tell the CIA that he was going to write the article and the CIA did not respond at all? I mean, if he secret was that important, don't you think that the CIA would have fought the article's publication? I don't know.

/Rove is evil.

Courtney Cox-Zucker		2005-07-15 01:07:57 PM

...and then he submitted it to Fark.

But Robert Novak had a funnier headline.

rose8199		2005-07-15 01:11:52 PM

Who has high security clearance and access to the identities of CIA agents, Rove or Novak?

I'll give you a hint, it wasn't the reporter.

Asa Phelps		2005-07-15 01:12:58 PM

Even if he received the information from a reporter, it is still unlawful for a government employee to give any information identifying a covert operative.

Pale_Green_Pants_With_Nobody_Inside_Them

The operative phrase here is "Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny".

gfm		2005-07-15 01:14:07 PM

All of the neo-con spinning over this is funny and no matter WHAT happened in strict technical terms and no matter how illegal what Rove did may or may not be, none of it changes the fact that Rove, Bush and McClellan stood there for months outright LYING to the American people about Rove's involvement. If it is not a big deal in the way they are claiming now, why didn't they just come forward back in 2003?

So much for the God-fearing values and "straight-shootin'".

the_gospel_of_thomas		2005-07-15 01:15:07 PM

Awwwww... this is all falling apart .... Awwwwww ....

Just think of all of the CafePress ( I wanted to watch Rove at the firing squad and all I got was this lousy T-Shirt ) T-Shirts that won't be sold.

/sympathy.

/Not so much.

Pale_Green_Pants_With_Nobody_Inside_Them		2005-07-15 01:15:58 PM

Asa Phelps: The operative phrase here is "Can Neither Confirm Nor Deny".

Could be, but don't you think they could have done something about it if it was important? I don't know, some beam weapon or something?

Tigger		2005-07-15 01:16:10 PM

the_gospel_of_thomas

I thought you were supposed to be trying to think rationally?

the_pgoat		2005-07-15 01:18:53 PM

So, who told these reporters who Rove heard it from?

the_pgoat		2005-07-15 01:19:49 PM

God dammit. Sorry. Poorly composed sentence. What I wonder is where did the reporter who was Rove's source get the information?

Pale_Green_Pants_With_Nobody_Inside_Them		2005-07-15 01:20:32 PM

And why is Miller still not revealing her source? I don't get that whole thing. Unless her source is not Rove. This whole thing smacks of ugly. I think there is more here than 'Rove is evil'

uatuba		2005-07-15 01:21:16 PM

Asa Phelps:

it is still unlawful for a government employee to unknowingly give specific information identifying a covert operative.

There ya go.

uatuba		2005-07-15 01:23:04 PM

gfm:

Rove, Bush and McClellan stood there for months outright LYING to the American people about Rove's involvement.

Umm...even most of the Left's witch-hunters claim that Bush didn't know Rove was involved.

djemonk		2005-07-15 01:23:21 PM

the_pgoat: What I wonder is where did the reporter who was Rove's source get the information?

Probably from Rove.

Rinse, repeat, wipe truth on pants.

the_pgoat		2005-07-15 01:23:28 PM

And why is Miller still not revealing her source?

Miller has got to have her hands dirty in this, IMO.

uatuba		2005-07-15 01:26:22 PM

the_pgoat: So, who told these reporters who Rove heard it from?

Haven't you heard that everyone on Capitol Hill, including (especially) the press, already knew Plame's identity?

the_pgoat		2005-07-15 01:26:47 PM

djemonk: heheh. I've made it pretty clear that I think this is how the info flowed:

Rove-->Miller-->Novak-->calls and confirms with Rove (aka, Rove didn't divulge to Novak. In my scenario, Miller does not reveal to Novak who told her either.)-->prints story.

With Miller refusing to testify, the orginal leaker (to her) is safe. Miller never wrote a story, so she wasn't on the public face of this. Fitgerald probably went after Miller because Novak testified that she spread the info to him.

**adjusts tinfoil hat**

KyngNothing		2005-07-15 01:27:06 PM

Pale_Green_Pants_With_Nobody_Inside_Them:

Also, didn't novak tell the CIA that he was going to write the article and the CIA did not respond at all? I mean, if he secret was that important, don't you think that the CIA would have fought the article's publication? I don't know.

Did you feel the same about the DOD not denying the Koran abuse before Newsweek ran the story?

the_pgoat		2005-07-15 01:27:36 PM

2005-07-15 01:26:22 PM uatuba

the_pgoat: So, who told these reporters who Rove heard it from?

Haven't you heard that everyone on Capitol Hill, including (especially) the press, already knew Plame's identity?

That doesn't make it ethical or legal for a public official to divulge the info to a reporter, however.

rose8199		2005-07-15 01:27:53 PM

Maybe Rove told Miller and Miller told Novak

/dumb idea?

rose8199		2005-07-15 01:28:42 PM

the_pgoat:

Rove-->Miller-->Novak-->calls and confirms with Rove (aka, Rove didn't divulge to Novak. In my scenario, Miller does not reveal to Novak who told her either.)-->prints story.

Sounds about right to me

the_pgoat		2005-07-15 01:29:08 PM

Obviously I can't know anything, so I'm just having fun with what we *do* have.

**shrug**

DrewFL		2005-07-15 01:29:37 PM

rose8199:

Who has high security clearance and access to the identities of CIA agents, Rove or Novak?

Mrs. Wilson wasn't a field agent. She walked through the front door at Langley every day.

She's an administrator.

gfm		2005-07-15 01:30:13 PM

even most of the Left's witch-hunters claim that Bush didn't know Rove was involved.

No, they claim there is no hard evidence Bush knew... which is a very different thing. Again, it is funny to see the right go from "Rove had no involvement, and if the President finds out who did this, they'll be fired" to "well, it isn't ilegal and maybe the President didn't know!", but the whole thing fails all the basic bullshiat tests and now it is just a whole bunch of ass covering.

Maybe nothing strictly illegal happened, but anyone who still points to this administration as some sort of beacon of integrity and good "American values" has the worst case of denial I've ever heard of.

uatuba		2005-07-15 01:30:20 PM

the_pgoat:

That doesn't make it ethical or legal for a public official to divulge the info to a reporter, however.

You're right. But any one of those "everyone" on Capitol Hill could have told Novak. And since the conversation went: "I've HEARD yada yada" and Rove said, "I've heard that, too," doesn't that scenario make sense?

DrewFL		2005-07-15 01:30:54 PM

gfm:

All of the neo-con spinning over this is funny and no matter WHAT happened in strict technical terms and no matter how illegal what Rove did may or may not be, none of it changes the fact that Rove, Bush and McClellan stood there for months outright LYING to the American people about Rove's involvement. If it is not a big deal in the way they are claiming now, why didn't they just come forward back in 2003?

EXACTLY...MSNBC is chock full of neocons.

Them and that damn CNN. Right wing city.

Terminal Frost		2005-07-15 01:31:00 PM

the_pgoat

That doesn't make it ethical or legal for a public official to divulge the info to a reporter, however.

But at the very least, it answers your question as to where Novak could have gotten the info, assuming your flow model is wrong.

the_pgoat		2005-07-15 01:31:04 PM

She walked through the front door at Langley every day.

She's an administrator.

Pretty good cover, eh?

Pale_Green_Pants_With_Nobody_Inside_Them		2005-07-15 01:31:27 PM

KyngNothing:

Did you feel the same about the DOD not denying the Koran abuse before Newsweek ran the story?

It's not the same. That was an accusation on the DOD. It does not compare to uncovering a NOC.

the_pgoat		2005-07-15 01:32:49 PM

Terminal Frost: Sure. I'm just trying to figure out motives and stuff. But, yeah, I mean he could have just known it. He claims to have been told by two senior admin. officials, however.

uatuba		2005-07-15 01:33:24 PM

gfm, you're completely misunderstanding the entire situation. If Karl Rove picked up the phone, called a reporter, and said, "Valerie Plame is Wilson's wife. She is a covert CIA operative. Leak her name so she will be in danger...that'll teach Wilson to mess with us!" then I want him to be fired. If he simply said, "I've heard that, too" then there are absolutely ZERO grounds to fire him.

The entire scenario that Plame's name was leaked in an attempt to put her in danger and send the message to Wilson is what got my blood boiling. Now it seems that it did not happen that way. There is still no proof that Rove actually leaked her name!

the_pgoat		2005-07-15 01:34:02 PM

If he simply said, "I've heard that, too" then there are absolutely ZERO grounds to fire him.

**nod** That is, undeniably, a true statement.

gfm		2005-07-15 01:34:05 PM

Mrs. Wilson wasn't a field agent. She walked through the front door at Langley every day.

So the whole thing was no big deal, eh? So why didn't Rove come forward in 2003? Why did it take a special investigation and 2 years and possible jail time for reporters for him get outed if it is all no big deal like they claim now?

Can you imagine hiding something from your wife (or girlfriend, or whatever) for 2 years, lying about it, and then when the truth comes out, try to claim it was all just no big deal anyway?

When did integrity die in America?

mediaho		2005-07-15 01:34:51 PM

gfm: the worst case of denial I've ever heard of.

Someone bringing up "the definition of 'is'" in 3,2,1...

FormlessOne		2005-07-15 01:35:13 PM

It's fun to watch them struggle to spin this one.

uatuba		2005-07-15 01:35:21 PM

the_pgoat: He claims to have been told by two senior admin. officials, however.

He claims to have had it confirmed by two officials. Rove saying, "I've heard that, too" confirms that the rumor is indeed going around. If Novak called Rove as he is claiming now, then this story fizzled like I predicted.

the_gospel_of_thomas		2005-07-15 01:35:58 PM

"Proof that Rove leaked her name?" That is not what concerns most of these people, uatuba.

seriously.

/sends a FTD "Pick-me-up" bouquet to NMPH who was so sure that Rove was guilty ...

gfm		2005-07-15 01:36:13 PM

uatuba, it is you who are misunderstanding. I don't even care about the initial leak. I care that Rove & the rest of the Bush administration, including the official White House spokesman, sat there and lied about it for 2 years. If Rove is comfortable with what he did, WHY DIDN'T HE JUST SAY HE DID IT (instead of lying) IN 2003, WHEN HE WAS ASKED DIRECTLY AND REPEATEDLY?

Try spinning THAT aspect of it instead of ignoring it.

the_pgoat		2005-07-15 01:36:19 PM

2005-07-15 01:35:13 PM FormlessOne

It's fun to watch them struggle to spin this one.

The really, really awesome and funny thing about this comment is that I don't know who you mean by "they." hehe. My best estimation would be that you mean "everyone." Because, man, it's spin-crazy out there.

Asa Phelps		2005-07-15 01:36:46 PM

To some extent, the point is that, as an ambassador to Nigeria, Miller knew damn well that:

A: Iraq has more uranium production capability than Nigeria

and

B: The uranium mining operations in Nigeria are all controlled by a consortium of european companies.

So it both makes no sense for Nigeria to be selling any uranium to Iraq, AND the government of Nigeria never had any uranium to sell to them.

Miller got the go-ahead from his wife to *prove it, and discredit the administration's claims.

At this point, we know that the 'inteligence' was forged by a low-level italian inteligence agent who was hard up for cash and knew he could get money for it, so he accepted a bribe to 'leak' it.

uatuba		2005-07-15 01:37:07 PM

gfm: for him get outed if it is all no big deal like they claim now?

HE DID NOT GET OUTED! Show me any information that outs Rove as the Plame source. How do you know they lied about it when we don't even know if Rove was the leak?

edverb		2005-07-15 01:37:19 PM

uatuba:

If Karl Rove picked up the phone, called a reporter, and said, "Valerie Plame is Wilson's wife. She is a covert CIA operative. Leak her name so she will be in danger...that'll teach Wilson to mess with us!" then I want him to be fired.

How about if he --- OOPS ---- just accidentally told six reporters what he'd "heard"? (When he actually had a responsibility to keep anything he knew under his hat, no matter how he'd learned it.)

Would you consider that reprehensible, or what?

//please say it is, I don't want to think less of you

DrewFL		2005-07-15 01:37:30 PM

the_pgoat: Pretty good cover, eh?

Maybe...but her name has been in the press before and she was never a covert agent.

If Rove was wrong then so be it...I don't think that this story is worth all of the hubbub.

Whatever happened to the Downing Street Memo?

uatuba		2005-07-15 01:38:04 PM

Asa Phelps: So it both makes no sense for Nigeria to be selling any uranium to Iraq

It's Niger.

Pale_Green_Pants_With_Nobody_Inside_Them		2005-07-15 01:38:34 PM

DrewFL: Whatever happened to the Downing Street Memo?

You have to wait till October for that....when the book comes out.

Asa Phelps		2005-07-15 01:38:38 PM

uatuba - the wording in the relivant legal code is "any information identifying"

You_EEEeeediot		2005-07-15 01:38:48 PM

uatuba:

Haven't you heard that everyone on Capitol Hill, including (especially) the press, already knew Plame's identity?

Another poorly spun lie. They knew she was married to Wilson, and she was an analyst for Brewster Jennings & Associates. What was NOT common knowledge at that time was BJ&A was a front company for the CIA and part of clandestine operation. When that cover was blown it put every single person who ever had contact with her in peril. It wasn't as simple as just naming the fact that she worked for the CIA... it destroyed an entire operation that only the highest levels of your government knew about.

The investigation is no doubt about who had access to that classified info, who they leaked it to, and what needs to be done to silence the breach in national security.

STOP DOWNPLAYING.

DrewFL		2005-07-15 01:39:02 PM

gfm: When did integrity die in America?

When you started touching yourself at night.

gfm		2005-07-15 01:39:51 PM

Matt Wilson's emails show Rove was involved. Even if he wasn't the first leak, even if he was just parroting what he heard from Novak or whoever, as he's claimed, it is really splitting hairs now to claim Rove wasn't involved.

It is the exact equivilent of the 5 year old's "WELL, HE DID IT FIRST!" argument to a parent. And if that's what politics have come down to in America (and I think they have), so be it, but anyone who still respects Bush and his administration given all of this is a retarded tool.

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