i agree with equusdc.

and agnostics.

Wow, they sampled ~ 0.0004% of the population and know what _everyone_ believes. Excuse me if I call BS on a sample that small. When they hit 1% I might start to give these silly polls some notice. Until then I'll just banish him to the same file I keep John Edwards and Krazy Kevin in.

/needs more cowbell

GreenSlime obviously has never had a stats class

Positivism is boring. It doesn't tell you much of anything about how to be human or how to think as a human.

We shape reality. Human will doesn't need to understand it coherently in order to function.

Typical attack by the so-called "intelligencia" on spiritual americans. Maybe you should realize that the number is so high because the people who are more in tune with the spiritual world dont buy all this gobbledygook that these so-called "scientists" spit out.

God help us all...

The first scientists were around long long before Christ and thus could not have been Christian.

If you mean Enlightenment, European scientists, most of the early ones were most definitely NOT monks, although most were indeed Christian to some degree or another.

Short ghost story here.

My brother works for a major newsradio station. He recently told me that they are moving their entire offices to a new location and that the old building, a place with an illustrious radio and TV history, is going to be leveled so that a new strip mall could go up.

Evidently, this displeased some of the 999 happy haunts that reside in the ghostly retreat: things have been moving by themselves, chills in the air, etc.

So...there you go.

/doesn't believe in ghost photography
//will believe in one when I see one

GreenSlime

Yeah, or you could learn about statistics and population sampling methods to understand how a 1002 sample size could be valid (with the 3% error rate mentioned in the article). You know, one or the other.

I used to be a moderate Christian and now I pretty much pay lip service to it.

And why?

Mostly because of the crazies like jesus_is_lord

Krazikarl

Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant. I was referencing it in the frame of Christianity in Western Europe or something. I dunno, it's midafternoon.

I was under the impression many were monks like Mendel because they had the time and academic mind set but this is something I'm interested in learning more about.

I think its pretty clear that jesus_is_lord is just somebody who is bored and looking to get attention. I refuse to believe that somebody could possibly be as over the top as he is.

I went to fundamentalist baptist church as a kid, and I can promise you people like this exist. No exaggerations, no shiat, people this over the top and worse are out there. And some of them have been successfully taught to use a computer

I think jesus_is_lord could be a hoax. I can't imagine too many fundies hanging out on fark, but yeah I've definitely run into people as bad as him.

"It's our narcissism that makes us think there are spirits who care what we're doing."

Paraphrasing some woman on The Supranos.

When you start talking about the birth of modern style science in the West, you usually look to people like Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, Leibniz, Bacon. The number of monks you see doing science from this point on is very minimal. The times of monks doing research and being central in academia was more in the Middle (or Dark) Ages. The work they did then was usually not new, but was rather building upon the Bible, Greek, or Roman works. Working out stuff using Aristotle was particularily popular. Thats not to say that no monks did actual, new science, but to say "many" is misleading.

Thats not to say that Christianity has no place in science. After all, Newton, the central figure of the Enlightenment, was a staunch Christian and wrote something like three times as much on theology as he did on physics.

The spirits are telling me that someone is about to play the "Summon Bevets" card here.

/Those would be alcoholic spirits, just to be pefectly clear

I assumed that he is (a banned with non static IP) Bevets, since his profile says he is from Bevets, Georgia.

But... but... the da Vinci code says Newton was against the church!

Anyways, conspiracy theories aside, you should read the section on Newton in "A Brief History of Time". It's pretty funny how much of an A-Hole he supposedly was. Not that this has to do with the discussion but it's freaking hot here and I don't feel like work at the moment.

I see a dead person every day. My late brothers' ashes are in a clear glass jar on a shelf in our library. So,yeah,I could see how that would be true,literally. Other than that,I don't want to be a downer. Sorry.

/Go,Stevie.

I hadn't looked at his profile, Krazikarl, but you may be right. Is Bevets banninated? I saw him on a thread the other day, but the creation date of this account would be close to that. If he starts with the scripture quoting, then that will be a dead (no pun intended) give-away..

1/3 or the population is too unhappy in their actual life and their place in the world to accept that this is it folks!

revel in it, love life, enjoy everyday activities, cause its all you got

Much like religion, science changes its mind every day. I don't deny people the right to say science can be considered lacking. I do mind people that forgo science in favor of spritual answers that are even farther from the truth...Faith Healings come to mind. (Thanks John Stewart and The Daily Show)

peachykeen: But... but... the da Vinci code says Newton was against the church!

I sincerely hope Dan Brown did more research on daV before DVC than he did on cryptography, the NSA and women before writing Digital Fortress.

(Read le Carre's Russia House, the book Brown unmistakeably cribbed the plot and subplot from)

You're right, I never did take any stat classes. And without any info on how the poll was done and worded I still call BS on it. For all I know they could have just hung out at Wall*Mart for a day and asked those people. I sure as Fark wouldn't trust that poll. Would you? Kinda like going to Burger King and taking a poll on how many people like hamburgers. All suspect without methods to back up the numbers otherwise they can be made to mean anything. The last election showed that.

/adds some more fuel

"how can anyone honestly believe that science has answered all of our spiritual questions? "

I would like to know what these spiritual questions are. I will then answer them using NEITHER science NOR religion and you will follow me forever after.

orrinbloquy

Thanks, I'll take a look at that. DVC is seriously the most overated book published in recent memory (fun, but overrated and smells of BS). The passwords were insultingly obvious as well.

GreenSlime

You've got a point, it's important to know the conditions the polls were administered under. I'd recommend reading up on some stats, not because I'm trying to be a dick, but because it's a really interesting subject in the general sense, in terms of how people can come to accurate conclusions on limited data.

Here's a link discussing Sleep Paralysis & Associated Hypnagogic & Hypnopompic Experiences, if one is interested in non-supernatural explanations of "ghosts" & related phenomena:

http://watarts.uwaterloo.ca/~acheyne/S_P.html

Some of this thread is pretty spooky.

Science is nothing but a process that, owing to our ability to observe and memorize, has been with us since some ancestor noticed how sharp that chert got when he busted a chunk up. Hypothesis testing (maybe some other kind of rock is easier to work/holds edge better/etc. ad infinitum) didn't get formal for a long while (testing statistically) but the process is the only way we have for zeroing in on finding out whether what we are seeing is what we think we're looking at. One should Contemplate the voodoo navel lint when one has plenty of time, that's right, put a poncho over it until `reward' days on the right hand of lambikins.

peachykeen - No fair saying that I had a point, we were just a few posts away from a Bush or a Godwin :)

Anyway, I took study hall instead of stat as a senior (already had enough credits to grad) back in HS. Recommend any linkies for teh math challenged?

I see un-dead people.

They're everywhere, farking millions of them....

I used to think I saw dead people when I was a little kid. Turns out I've been a chronic insomiac my entire life. When I got older I realized that after the second or third night of not sleeping, I see people, animals -- all kinds of things that aren't really there.

/hallucinations
/don't need drugs

Green Slime:

Please stop. I assume that you are intelligent, but uninformed. The Gallup Organization does not hang out at Wal-Mart. They didn't build a $1 Billion company by not employing the strictest standards of statistical sampling methods. The results are legit plus or minus 3% as the article states. By the way, for comparison, the Nielsen company measures TV ratings with a sample of about 2000 households. That's really all you need.

Polls such as this further prove to me that this "War" we are fighting against Muslim Extremism is being waged by Religious Extremists on this side of the pond as well. I would have loved to have seen how many of the "Ghost Believers" were Bush supporters as well.

Somebody stop this thing, I want to get off!

As I am obviously GOD, of course I can see dead people.

GreenSlime, its actually a good idea to question people statistics. As Mark Twain said: "Lies, damned lies, and statistics." Many organizations with obvious agendas use highly doctored stats that are completely meaningless.

HOWEVER, the article said that the stats were done by the Gallup organization. That organization has a strong reputation and does its statistics properly. Done properly, you can represent the entire US with a small group to a fairly high degree of precision (3% in this case).

Basically put, when you interview a large enough group that is chosen randomly, the probability that that group will differ from the entire group that it represents by more than the margin of error is very very very small.

My girlfriend and I both saw a phantasm of some sort in the shape of a girl getting on a elevator at a dorm we were visiting.

My girlfriend and I both saw a phantasm of some sort in the shape of a girl getting on a elevator at a dorm we were visiting.

Are you sure it was a phantasm and not nothing?

ThisIsGina:

When I got older I realized that after the second or third night of not sleeping, I see people, animals -- all kinds of things that aren't really there.

That happened to me once. I was driving while fatigued, cold sober, and I almost hit a brontosaurus on the freeway on the way home. Really freaked me out.

This thread is worthless without ghost stories!

/never saw anything paranormal
//2 degrees of separation from many who have

btw - I believe just one of Denise's breasts from the SbB pic is bigger than her head.

(.) > :)

I see brain dead people all the time. Does that count?

I've done my fair share of acid, and I've never seen anything remotely ghost-like. Whatever.

I would fight to the death for your right to know that your a soulless piece of meat.
Also for your right to preach that.

I see dead people every day. Flipping through the cable teevee channels, I constantly come across them. Saw Frank Sinatra today, and John Wayne. Spooky.

On a more serious note,

jesus_is_lord

how can anyone honestly believe that science has answered all of our spiritual questions?

I have several flip answers, but the fact that you ask that question makes me realize how badly the American educational system is in the shiatter. There may in fact be some people -- I hope no more than a handful -- who honestly believe science has answered all of our spiritual questions. I feel even sorrier for them than I do for you for asking this question. The majority, I hope, who have anything to do with science at all realize that it has nothing whatsoever to say about spiritual questions. It is no more of an authority on spiritual matters than the Phone Book. Many, quite possibly most, scientists are religious to at least some extent, and I don't think many would claim what you are suggesting. There may be some, but then again there are some Muslims who blow up infidels, and there are some Christians who bomb abortion clinics, and there are some Buddhists who have immolated themselves with gasoline. Some, in this sense, being a very small number.

I have some training in science, and am familiar with many of the theories, and I, for one, have never imagined it had any answers to any spiritual questions. If you are implying otherwise, then you are deliberately persecuting me, and I know you would never do that.

/Don't worship science, just as I don't worship the Newspaper. Don't ignore either.

Hrmm...

So... Who am I, in short I am my brain, I am the links formed by neurons etc in my brain. I can change who I am by changing these links, If I knock out bits of my brain then my personality changes. I can do this with beer, beer changes my personality. With a bit of LSD I can change who I am quite a lot, so much so that people that know me, would hardly recognize who I am.

So I die, my brain is goo, all those connections are gone, ego, so am "I".

But I can be a ghost you say, those connections in my brain that make me 'me' are preserved obviously... in what medium, in "energy" in the "energy" crated from my angst at being dead... Then why is everyone not a ghost, why aren't the streets full of ghosts, billions of people have died before "now" where are they all?

Hrmm... seems to me, ghosts do exist, yes, yes they do, in your brain.

But then my flatmate tells me that animals can see people ghosts... then are there animal ghosts... where are the angst filled dinosaurs walking done the street, must be so many more of them than us, they had 120 Million years to build a big population of ghosts... we've had 120 Thousand...

Come on ghost believing people, tell me how all the neural connections in my brain that make me "me" can be preserved with out matter... Soul maybe... but the soul can't be it, because the soul lives on in brain dead people.

Think, please people, just think about it...

Before or after they go to Iraq?

I eat dead people....

I used to say I saw ghosts, but then I decided to own up and admit that I just like peeing my pants for no good reason. The ghosts were just a scapegoat that kept people from asking all of those questions.

/sane?no.

So 1/3 of the people that saw "The Sixth Sense" thought they were watching a documentary?

I like how cameras and somehow dogs can see ghosts that the much more precise human eye can't.

And that we can view "subtle bodies" like our subatomic plumes (and even measure that for drug use) yet these instruments can't detect these spirits which should be everywhere.

And how science has eradicated every cheesy superstition man has ever dreamed up, except the small few that can't be disproved, because they rely on conveniently invisible or undetectable, magical forces, and people still think it's "gobbledygook."

Or that a large part of the lore surrounding the spirit world (ie: dogs can see ghosts) came from books or movies. And that flicks like "The Sixth Sense" can bolster peoples' cheestacular beliefs.

I have some training in science, and am familiar with many of the theories, and I, for one, have never imagined it had any answers to any spiritual questions.

I wouldn't say that. I, for one, feel relatively confident in saying that rotting meat does not spontaneously generate maggots. Thanks, Science!