All I want is to go from A-B as cheaply as possible. I dont' need leather, I don't need to haul a bunch of shiat or kids, and I don't need to go offroad.

And that is why I lust after a four-door VW Golf TDI. With a veggie kit. A hybrid-TDI would be good too.

givemebackmyradar

I only know a little about Diesels but I have understood that for normal around the town type of driving they are incredibly inefficient. Only on highway driving or hard truck pulls do they reach anywhere near efficiency. Has this changed at all with recent Diesel advances? I believe that is why the American market is not wild over them, especially for smaller cars which are expected to do more town than highway driving.

"2005-07-06 11:54:00 AM Holden.McGroyne

Those are nickel metal hydride batteries. While they are recyclable, they most certainly will not last the lifetime of a car (unless you scrap the car in 5 years). NiMH batteries are lucky to last 3 or 4 years if used regularly. We will soon start hearing about hybrid car battery replacements."

The batteries have an 8 year/100,000 warranty on them, so I'm guessing you are wildly wrong.

Geotpf

My theory is that domestic cars are going to go the way of domestic airlines. One company is going to finally go back to a "one-size-fits-all" model that they run long enough for it to be cheap to make. The others will try to slash each others throats with predatory pricing, and gimics. (And they will probably be continually bailed out by Congress.)

Car companies, if you are listening, most of us don't care what the car looks like once we get the damn thing home. We want it to outlive the payment book, and to not need to be in the shop every week.

Evil Twin Skippy -

Amen.

I'm a big critic of the simplistic "foreign cars = better than American cars" argument, but this headline is great.

pkellmey

I only know a little about Diesels but I have understood that for normal around the town type of driving they are incredibly inefficient. Only on highway driving or hard truck pulls do they reach anywhere near efficiency. Has this changed at all with recent Diesel advances? I believe that is why the American market is not wild over them, especially for smaller cars which are expected to do more town than highway driving.

Actually, in all driving situations a Diesel is superior. It produces more torque, has a higher compression ratio, and superior milage. Much of the efficiency comes from the simpler design. A Diesel has far fewer moving parts because the physics of compression does the job of the fuel-injector/carborator and spark plug. There are a lot fewer valves too.

What has kept them out of family cars until recently is that they are REALLY cranky about starting up. Especially in the cold. They also require a bit of finagling to warm up properly. Advances in computer controls have eliminated this problem. Turbo diesels play around with the air pressure to compensate for all these effects, as well as tweak the timings and whatnot. The driver is blisfully unaware, he/she just waits for the happy "Go" light.

broomballwilson

I'm a big critic of the simplistic "foreign cars = better than American cars" argument, but this headline is great.

When I can tell the difference between the American cars and the Foriegn cars I'll tell you.

Best I can tell the "American" car companies are corporations headquartered in Bermuda, who take parts from Mexico and Canda and assemble them and paint them in Alabama or Detriot.

Foreign car companies are corporations headquartered in the same countries they get their parts from before assembling their cars in Alabama or Detriot. Is some wierd cases they might ship whole cars.

Evil Twin Skippy

...the things you learn. I don't believe that, out of the nearly 40 gas stations within 50 miles of me, more than 6 carry diesel. Plus, I remember when the prices were lower than gas, now they seem a couple of dimes higher - especially with the summer corn blends of gas being cheaper. That won't help the image too much.

Ideally, however, we would have diesel engines that run at a constant speed powering generators that keep a small array of batteries topped off (provide a buffer for large drains like heavy acceleration) and the car would be moved by electric motors. Maybe one in each wheel. Then you'd have all the power and performance of an all-wheel-drive car without any heavy expensive transmission system and the ability to control torque millisecond-to-millisecond.

Now that would be cool. And very efficient. And powered by vegetable oil.

perisoft

944's etc. are nice handling cars, and the turbo models can be pretty damned fast. But maintaining an old Porsche is going to be either a hopeless money pit or a labor of love, depending on your mechanical aptitude. For me, it's a labor of love, keeping my '70 911 with mechanical fuel injection on the road. Just be warned... there are good reasons why 944's, 928's, etc. can be purchased so cheaply.

And to make an effort to stay on topic, I own a '98 Dodge Neon with 317,000 miles. Yes, it's the original motor. (The 2.0 DOHC that Chrysler was giving away in the first generation cars.) Yes, the head gasket was replaced by the dealer under warranty. Yes, I'm gonna keep driving it until the wheels fall off. Getting 35 mpg in a vehicle that is 100 percent paid for allows me to indulge my expensive hobbies.

mah toyota
RWD and shiat, lsd and shiat, everything and shiat!

The Icelander

The vegetable oil idea is cool and everything, but they had a car event locally where they had a "veg mobile" and the smell was pretty sickening. Now, if they just replace it with a "new car smell" deoderizer...

pkellmey

Diesel is more expensive than gas gallon-for-gallon (for now), but if you look at it from a cost-per-mile basis it's a lot cheaper.

My 99 Mazda Protege is rated at 30mpg. If gas costs $2.17/gallon my transportation costs $0.0723 per mile

A modern Jetta TDI gets about 45 mpg. If diesel costs $2.39/gallon it's only $0.0531 per mile.

Over a year (12,000 miles) you end up saving about $230. Even more if you drive a lot. And this also doesn't take into account the durability of diesel engines, which can easily go 250,000 miles before needing any major work. (Providing your belts don't break.)

2005-07-06 12:17:18 PM Geotpf
The batteries have an 8 year/100,000 warranty on them, so I'm guessing you are wildly wrong.

Guess all you like.
They are still NiMH according to the Toyota literature (Ford uses the same).

Show me a NiMH battery that has lasted 8 years and will hold at least half it's rated charge. I do still have a NiCad battery that came with my Dewalt drill 8.5 years ago but it only holds a charge for about 10 minutes at low speed.
My guess is that since the hybrid cars don't rely exclusively on their batteries that people won't notice that they don't hold the charge they once did. Additionally, I recall reading - though I can't produce the source - an interview of someone from Ford discussing the need to replace the NiMH every 4 to 5 years (Ford has licensed their hybrid tech from Toyota).

There's two types of vegetable oil cars out there: converted biodiesel and pure veggie.

If it stank real bad it's probably because the oil's going rancid or it's biodiesel made from waste veggie. Most of the reports about using waste veggie say it smells like whatever was cooked in it, from french fries to fried chicken to donuts.

Greasel has the low-down.

Holden.McGroyne

OK, my batteries are 5.5+ years at this point, and haven't declined in ability to hold a charge at all - I watch the instruments when they are checked during routine maintenance. I think you are mistaken in normal circumstances and making assumptions based on other batteries.

If they have to replace the batteries every 4 to 5 years then you're all set: Toyota warranties the batteries for 7 years.

purplesmoke
2003 Volkswagon Jetta TDI Wagon

~45MPG City
~55MPG Highway

The EPA rates this car as 42/50 (stick), or 34/45 (auto) with the lowest possible score for emissions (meaning dirtiest). Current diesels get good mileage but have very bad emissions. Once the fuel gets cleaned up, diesels will be clean though. Unless of course you are buying biodiesel.

2005-07-06 12:38:54 PM The Icelander
Ideally, however, we would have diesel engines that run at a constant speed powering generators that keep a small array of batteries topped off (provide a buffer for large drains like heavy acceleration) and the car would be moved by electric motors. Maybe one in each wheel. Then you'd have all the power and performance of an all-wheel-drive car without any heavy expensive transmission system and the ability to control torque millisecond-to-millisecond.

I don't know why there hasn't been more developement in this area - except for maybe the weight thing. Actually some ships work like this except without the battery pack. I'm told that some train engines work like that too. Constant rpm engines can be designed to be much more efficient and cleaner running that the typical auto engine. An electric motor engineer once explained to me though that electrical moters have insane amounts of torque but they have to be pretty dang big and heavy to put out any serious horsepower.

Keep in mind that its not just the Americans who have problems with the quality of their car.

My 1998.5 Audi A4 2.8L-V6 Quattro Automatic suffered the following problems:
*Headlight relay - failed
*Transmission - 2nd gear shattered
*Battery - couldn't hold charge
*Stereo - tape deck plays backwards
*Camshaft Seal - failed
*Water Pump - failed
*Alarm - goes off when near WiFi stations, occassionally when opening moon roof
*Control Arm, front passenger - squeaked and moaned
*Steering Pump - leaked hydralic fluid
*Camshaft Position Sensor - failed, causing intake valve failure


I drove the car for five years and put 92K miles on the odo.

/now buys cars with an extended warrenty
//will never buy a Krautmobile ever again
///currently drives a Ricemobile

2005-07-06 12:56:52 PM pkellmey
OK, my batteries are 5.5+ years at this point, and haven't declined in ability to hold a charge at all - I watch the instruments when they are checked during routine maintenance. I think you are mistaken in normal circumstances and making assumptions based on other batteries.

When the NiMH in my laptop was 4 years old it would say it was fully charged when plugged in. But, when I unplugged it the charge only lasted 15-20 minutes. I'd bet my left #$% that if you ran on battery only that it wouldn't last as long as it would when new.

Holden.McGroyne

Considering I have owned this car for its entire life and know it charge/discharge rate both then and now - you would again be wrong. Thanks for trying. You owe me one left #$%.

mcostas

Once the fuel gets cleaned up, diesels will be clean though. Unless of course you are buying biodiesel.

When will the diesel fuel get cleaned up?
Is biodiesel cleaner than diesel/nonlead - or is it just gaining ground due to the fact that gas prices are skyrocketing? I don't like the idea of my car smelling like KFC... however, if it becomes cleaner AND cheaper...

What is the fuel economy like on that little chevy aveo? I've seen quite a few zipping around here. I guess in the case of small hatchbacks it'd be a tough choice between the aveo and the echo.

/has a inexplicable affinity towards small cars

I've owned nothing but MoPar (Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep/Plymouth) my whole life with the exception of a reeeeeeeaaaaaallllly clean 63 Buick Wildcat (a damn fine car I might add), and I have always been of the opinion that if the big 3 could produce such amazing cars as those above (classic muscle Dodges) things would shape up for them quickly. Chrysler is waking up, and apparently so is Ford with the newer Stang. But there is a renaissance needed in US automaking. Ah, the good old days...

/MoPars: 2004 Cruiser GT Turbo, 2002 Jeep Liberty, 2000 Neon, 1997 Neon, 1972 Charger, 1971 Plymouth Duster ModTop w. factory sunroof, 1970 Charger RT, 1970 Coronet, 1969 Coronet RT convertible (seriously), 1968 Dodge Charger RT, 1966 Plymouth Sport Fury convertible.

/Non-MoPars: 1963 Buick Wildcat w. 401 'nailhead' and dynaflow automatic, my wife's 1988 McLaren ASC Mustang.

i had a 2003 mustang GT that got 30 mpg on the highway. Still the best car i have owned was a 1991 toyota Camry. 190,000 miles

Dinjiin

Keep in mind that its not just the Americans who have problems with the quality of their car.

*Stereo - tape deck plays backwards

Hmm.. Could it be Satan?

How about a not-making-shiatty-and poorly designed-cars war?

Phil Herup, hear hear! front wheel drive blows.

I'll keep my BMW convertible, thanks.

Dinjiin, your mistake was buying an audi, they suck quality wise. Get a bmw or a used mercedes.

FredGarvin

Got a sweet deal on a used Mercedes last year. 1988 420SEL, two owners, 117,000 miles, $4500. Put about $1000 worth of parts on it and it's just like driving a new car. The only thing I don't like is that it doesn't handle like my Neon. It wallows around corners like you wouldn't believe (well, given that it's 18 feet long and 4500 pounds, maybe you would believe).

Phil Herup

Also thinking about the '07 BMW M3. This car will have it all.

As an proud previous owner of several BMWs, I never really considered how much importance I put into body lines and overall looks of an automobile until this year's redesign from the manufacturer I love dearly. Never have I ever been so disappointed. In my opinion, the new face of BMW, or, this year's crappy looking line of automobiles with BMW badges on them, all look blocky, utilitarian, and uninspiring. I think they just about threw away everything that made the line distinctive save the kidney grill (which now more resembles a pontiac). And I mean EVERY series (3, 5, 6, & 7) that has had the redesign so far. I'm sure they probably drive like a dream (as BMWs tend to do), but i'll never know, since I refuse to drive something so god-awful looking. What were the designers thinking? I know i'm not the only previous Beemer owner to say so.

/Wants another M3 too, but will stick to looking at 2004 and before body styles.

purplesmoke420

If I use about half as much diesel fuel as non-leaded automobiles, wouldn't that in itself cut down on the emissions?

Err sorta, but not really. Even accounting for the vastly inferior mileage, gas powered cars put a lot less crap out the tailpipe. My memory is not good enough to put forth the details properly, but it's a function of diesel combustion producing soot (or "particulate matter" in epaspeak), and perhaps, emissions standards tailored for gas-powered cars.

2005-07-06 01:10:26 PM pkellmey
Considering I have owned this car for its entire life and know it charge/discharge rate both then and now

The charge/discharge rate have nothing to do with charge capacity. The rate of charge/discharge wouldn't change unless you changed your electric motor and the regenerative equipment.

It is a simple fact of physics that every time you discharge and recharge a battery that you lose a little capacity.

Bodero

you make some valid points, but stop using that ridiculous blog as a source - it reads like a joke that just ain't funny.

<i><b>purplesmoke420</b>
Hmm.. Could it be Satan?</i>

It could be. The first tape I ever played in my deck was a "Introduction to Spanish" tape. Sounded like Satan to me.

<i><b>FredGarvin</b>
your mistake was buying an audi, they suck quality wise. Get a bmw or a used mercedes.</i>

I just bought a brand spanken new Lexus instead. Here on the west coast, Jap parts are easier to get. Biggest issue I had with repairs to my Audi was waiting to have parts shipped in from back east.


Before my A4, I used to drive a Chevy S-10. Its engine burnt up at 102K miles, and I didn't even tow with it.

/Dislikes domestic car styling
//Dislikes domestic car quality
///Dislikes cars in general... $1 fanbelt lasts 60K miles, $1.20 fanbelt lasts 200K miles

mytdawg I got a ION Red Line as a demo off the lot. 4500 test miles on it, with discount and incentives I got it for 17K. It's the prototype for the Cobalt SS supercharged. 20+ MPG (driven hard), 200 HP, 0-60 in about 6 seconds, top speed 145.

GAH, you suck!

/04 Ion2
//wish I could have waited a year for a new car (timing of this plan)
///Really thinking that the Redline/SS are underrated

Oh yea, Saturn, except for the horrible interior (which I believe they've fixed), is pretty damn good. Few oddities, but hey, its a (after everything) $13k car. Go figure.

Holden.McGroyne

Maybe you don't understand. The length of time for discharge would change if it was not charging to the same capacity over this vehicles current lifetime. That is why your notebook battery doesn't last as long - it is not holding full capacity. Sure, all batteries lose capacity over time, however, your assumption is for a much quicker timeframe to fail than has been experienced. That's the issue.

did i miss something, what about subaru for reliability and fuel econ, i just bought my 1st and it's great(traded my 02 jeep grand too) mpg was a factor but the style of the outback kind of made me happy. and it grows on ya to, awd and stuff.
/wanted to comment.....

my first car was an audi and it didn't last long, it was crap

i've had gm ever since and everyone's amazed on how long it's lasted . . . i've seen other cars that were supposed to have been more reliable crap out and fall apart way before "their time" . . . i'll keep with the reliable and let the poor (sooner to be poorer) scmucks buy the crap comin' out of these other foreign plants--seems to me in the little investigation i've done (admittedly not as much as i would've liked, but i don't have a NEED to yet), the foreign market has been riding the tide of "quality" propaganda while the big three have been actually making and boosting quality and still feeling the burn from a bad rap that no longer has any merit

some_random_guy

They are most definitely underrated but people like to get their nose up in the air. The big one is that it's just a tarted-up Cavalier. Whatever it is, it runs rings around almost anything until it gets to a turbo and it will be around long after most turbos have blown their seals (it's just some ice cream!). Most Saturn owners don't even know what it is.

The interior is still kind of goofy but I don't have a problem with it. Somebody is going to whine about anything that doesn't have feather pillows and auto pilot but I like to keep it simple. They only made about 2600 last year and probably won't make that many this year.

I really liked the Mustang SVO (the original), the GNX, the Syclone, Typhoon, etc. etc. This is the first limited production I've been able to buy. It ain't much, but it's mine. It's got a little cult following.

Phil Herup
Give us:

Rear Wheel Drive
V8 Power
Manual Tansmission
Limited Slip
Independent Suspension
Minimal Electronics
Good Brakes

I will buy. Many others will too.

Amen, brother. Amen.

..Still thinking of that beautiful blue '67 Camaro I was today... If I only had 60k

btw, real wheel drive and V8 engines does not mean "Gas Hog"

For 1 example, I present this humble rebuilt with a salvaged engine
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0111_combo/index5.html

Discussions on fuel economy need to include words like
Break Specific Fuel Consumption Ratio
Volumetric Efficiency
Mass of car
etc. etc.

I just bought a brand spanken new Lexus instead. Here on the west coast, Jap parts are easier to get. Biggest issue I had with repairs to my Audi was waiting to have parts shipped in from back east.

In this area the dealers sit on Asian parts and laugh when you try to buy them. A muffler for a 96 Honda was $250, just the friggin muffler. I'm probably less than 400 miles from the damn Civic plant, what's in them - plutonium? I had to replace it twice in 4 years (plus the other exhaust parts). There is no generic equivalent. It was downhill from there.

I can get a domestic vehicle repaired at least 3 times for what Asian cars cost me consistantly. And the brakes and exhaust went out on the Asian cars just as much or more.

btw, real wheel drive and V8 engines does not mean "Gas Hog"

The new GTO is rated at 29 MPG highway (with a standard).

My 1979 455 Trans Am gets about 20, unless you press the go pedal hard (then it's some kind of fraction I believe).

The Ariel Atom has replaced the Snorg t-shirt girl as the most midlife-crisis inducing thing I have ever seen.

When I get home I'm ripping all the body panels off of my Hyundai Accent and pretending it's an atom.

/sob

toy.o.ta

ugly but dependable.

i decided to get a honda last time because it looked better and felt better. and of course, the transmission needs to be replaced already (it's a 99). my sister in law's has the same problem - theirs was a 98 and they had to replace theirs right away. now my husband's accord, has a transmission problem.

?

mytdawg
The Ls1 is an efficient, efficient engine indeed.

Party Boy

Some things just can't be improved a whole lot. GM has the pushrod V-8 and the automatic transmission just about perfected.

Last I knew BMW and Rolls Royce were buying GM transmissions for use in their cars because they couldn't build a better one.

I'm still pissed at GM for dropping Olds though. They could have done a retro thing and saved the line, although something is obviously going to give. I live less than a mile from where the original '68 Hurst Olds were built (Demmer Mfg).

Wish I had one...

To continue with the threadjack, the 928 was a GT car, not a competitor to the 911/924/944 etc... That was Porsche's real mistake, before the "halo car" was the 911 Turbo (930 et seq.) and then when the 928 came out, Porsche positioned it above - not next to - that car. The performance was not close to a whale-tail or the like (0-60 times were not below 6 seconds until the 90's I think) and as has been mentioned, the vast majority of the cars were equiped with 3 or 4 speed automatic transmissions (both built by Mercedes-Benz) not sticks. The car was too big and heavy for auto-x and was underbraked for it's size until the latter versions of the car.

All that being said, for eating up miles of highway, there was nothing like it. It was built like a tank and had high-end torque to spare, especially as time went on to the late 80's-mid 90's versions (S, GT, GTS). Plus it was like piloting a fighter with the same laid-back seating from cars like the S2000 but with a roof and a package shelf behind you that must have been sarcasticly termed a back seat by Porsche NA.

But the operating expenses would kill a mortal man. Wheels? In the 80's while the car was still being manufactured? $900 each from the dealer, and be prepared to wait 4 weeks to have them built and transported from Germany. Plus you had to replace the timing chain every 45K or the whole (interferance) engine would go on you. Try finding one of the Wassach (spelling?) rear axles that were so trick back then.

The real Porsche/VW was the 914, which was actually sold at VW dealerships with VW badges as well as Porsche badges. That little sucker is the ugliest car... dayum.

The spiritual decendant of the 924/944? Ladies and gentlemen I present the Porsche Cayman (Boxter hardtop)