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(Yahoo)   Big Three U.S. automakers gearing up for price war. Quality war, fuel-efficiency war and crash-safety war will be fought sometime in the future   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 265
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7126 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 Jul 2005 at 7:38 AM (9 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2005-07-06 08:26:21 AM  
hwah: the reason American cars don't get that kind of mileage is due to emissions(small engines arent always emissions friendly, look at the geo metro) and safety standards that won't allow for their small designs.

um, Japanese vehicles must meet the same standards the American ones do, guess again.

As for the Porsche, "minimal electronics", don't make me laugh. They've probably got twice the electronics most cars do. They meet the rest of the qualities. You also can fit a whole Kleenex box in the trunk!
 
2005-07-06 08:29:48 AM  
inthe80s

As for the Porsche, "minimal electronics", don't make me laugh. They've probably got twice the electronics most cars do. They meet the rest of the qualities.

I'll have to agree with this--and most of the problems are electronics related. Otherwise an underrated car. The hatchback has a large trunk too.
 
2005-07-06 08:30:29 AM  
bark_atda_moon

not too funny. I plan on getting a 2500HD within a month or so.

;)
 
2005-07-06 08:31:18 AM  
JohnDHJ

DODGE:
Drips Oil & Drops Grease Everywhere
Damn Old Dirty Gas Eater
Dead Old Dog Going East
Dead On Day Guarantee Expires
Dead On Delivery, Go Easy
Dead On Delivery, Guarantee Expired
Dead Or Dying Garbage Emitter
Dear Old Dads Garage Experiment
Daily Overhauls Do Get Expensive

...and many many more here.
 
2005-07-06 08:33:55 AM  
I am still waiting for the day when a car is as disposable as a Lexmark printer and you throw it away when it runs out of gas or needs new windshield wipers.
 
2005-07-06 08:33:56 AM  
killuminati

*bows*

~DJ
 
2005-07-06 08:36:12 AM  
not too funny. I plan on getting a 2500HD within a month or so.

Don't you want to get in while this deal is still going on?
 
2005-07-06 08:36:44 AM  
hey, they forgot one for BMW!

Bang More Women.
 
2005-07-06 08:38:14 AM  
crazycooter

I have always wondered why cheap cars have to be ugly. If designing a decent looking car is so expensive, why not just take an existing design of an expensive car and put cheap shiat on the inside?

I've had the opportunity to work with designers for a certain Big 3 group... the reason is marketing. Marketing groups in automotive companies take every opportunity they can to perpetuate these kinds of trends, and I haven't a clue why. A designer sometimes forms an idea for a nice looking vehicle with specifications of the types of engine/interior features HE imagines going with it, but once he hands his idea off it's morphed into something completely different, presumably because the design/styling of the vehicle "should" be associated with certain performance archtypes.

Then again, the opposite effect is known to happen. There is a story about Bob Lutz and the development of the Dodge Viper... essentially a marketing group wished to change many features of the vehicle to make it more affordable/acceptable for families. They'd completely missed the point of the car -- to look, feel, and be powerful. Luckily, Lutz shut them the hell up.
 
2005-07-06 08:39:18 AM  
bark_atda_moon: Don't you want to get in while this deal is still going on?

indeed. But if I don't make the deal time frame, my cousin's helping me out... with his company's "X plan". almost the same savings... not quite, but almost. If funds and the moon lines correctly, I'll make this deal's deadline.

 
2005-07-06 08:41:57 AM  
Haha...my whole life, my dad would -never- buy anything but American. Until be bought a brand new 1995 Lincoln Continental, a premium car for premium money. Four years later, he was nearly in court with Ford. This thing was the biggest POS ever. The list of recurring problems would make your head spin.

As unbelievable as it sounds to me, he has bought nothing but BMW's since then and totally loved them. When I kid around and ask about his former strict "American-only" policy, he just ignores me.
 
2005-07-06 08:45:27 AM  
2005-07-05 11:40:47 PM Riche
Instead of going through sleezeball "dealers" to buy the cars, you'll be able to pick one up at Wal-Mart or Sam's Club. The fact that the cars come from China will be deemphasized and practically forgotten.

Sadly, you are probably right. Americans love to shop and to get a bargain and since since Sam died, Wal-Mart has been in overdrive to fan the flames with their lower prices campaigns. Personally, I leave Wal-Mart (on the rare occasion I go there) feeling sleazier than any car lot I've ever been to.

The misguided notion of free-trade and cheap prices is literally selling our country out to the Chinese. The day will come when America pisses off the Chinese government and they will embargo us. It will have a minimal impact on them because with their new found wealth they will be selling more to themselves than to America. After about a month virtually all the retailers shelves will be bare and we will have a national crisis.
There was once a time when our country used tarriffs and there was no income tax. Businesses prospered and trade was controlled. Free trade is doing to America what public schools and teachers unions have done to education - America will be dragged down to the lowest common denominator and all our unemployed workers who refuse to work for less than $20 an hour won't even be able to afford a used Chino-Mart econo-car.


Phil Herup
Give us:
Rear Wheel Drive
V8 Power
Manual Tansmission
Limited Slip
Independent Suspension
Minimal Electronics
Good Brakes
Don't forget a horn that plays "la cucaracha."


I notice that fuel economy and reliability are nowhere on your list. This mentality is exactly why US autos have lagged the Japanese and even the Europeans in everything except straight line acceleration. Good lord people there's more to life than going fast and turning left.

2005-07-05 11:56:18 PM Bodero
...The Chevrolet Cobalt, the Ford Fusion, they're all at least on par with the old industry leaders.

Except the old industry leaders are even better now. US car quality is where Japanese car quality was 10 years ago. I hate that because I would prefer to buy US.

Quality surveys, GM and Toyota have basically tied over the past year.

Yeah, I read that propaganda too. Problem with that survey is that the people who are willing to buy GM cars have lower expectations than people who buy Toyotas.

Oops sorry, got carried away.
\too much caffeine this mornings.
 
2005-07-06 08:45:37 AM  
Whoever mentioned, "GM and Toyota has about same quality surveys....". Does anyone know who an initial quality survey is done....this is how it goes at the dealership I work at...
1) Car gets sold to customer.
2) Dealer says, "You gotta fill out this quality survey"
3) This survey will determine how much a salesman will get paid/and how respected the dealership is...better the survey...better the pay...so they bribe the customers with a car wash.
4) I wash car.
5) Customer comes back in with survey, fills it out with PERFECT Car or whatever...
6) So folks...that is how meaningless "Initial Quality" Surveys are: It's just a bribe to make the company looks good.
 
2005-07-06 08:45:46 AM  
TightyWhitey

Just out of curiousity, was one of the problems with the Continental the air suspension system?

~DJ
 
2005-07-06 08:46:55 AM  
Jashter: Awwww, look -- his xenophobia is showing.

not me. I'm a Xenaphile myself.

 
2005-07-06 08:48:53 AM  
One person who will never again buy a Ford:

 
2005-07-06 08:49:34 AM  
perisoft: (They're Porsche 928s.)

Perhaps the best production car ever made anywhere. I still miss the little brother 944 I had untill it died an ignoble death and would have cost more than what I paied for it to fix it. Driving a truck around has made me an old man, I even go the speed limit and such now a days.
 
F1
2005-07-06 08:52:07 AM  
Killuminati:

Here is the article explaining why http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,12529-1677058,00.html
 
2005-07-06 08:53:07 AM  
Submitter forgot the Iraq war and the Afghanistan war and the coming Iran war.

//any others?
 
2005-07-06 08:53:13 AM  
Just FYI, looks like GM will be extending their sale until the end of July.

/ dad is a Chevy dealer
 
2005-07-06 08:53:20 AM  
Waffen-SS

Tip for you. If you feel the need to make negative remarks, atleast spell my name right. Further, in defense of the look of my car, I may be forced to show a picture of the Aztek or perhaps the Honda and BMW SUVs that look like woodblock cars.
http://www.dicksonautos.com/dealers/2055/DSCF0341.JPG
vs
http://www.automobile-riekmann.com/verkauf/cadillac_seville_sts_1995_gruen_l.j pg

uhh don't hot too many famers markets with that boat
 
2005-07-06 08:53:22 AM  
inthe80s,

I don't know the specifics of it but what I do know is that emissions is the reason that some Japanese Sports cars such as the 3000GT, Supra, and RX-7, though they've all unfortunately been discontinued even in the Japanese Domestic Market in the last few years...

/Wishes he had gotten an RX-7 when you could still buy them new
 
2005-07-06 08:55:47 AM  
I'd like to add that the best cars in the world ARE German cars. Germany has always been better at engeneering than just about any other country. In fact after driving my 4 grand 944 around and then driving my friends hondas and such, I couldn't belive how cheap and worthless they felt and handled. I think a used BMW is in my future, since you can't find.

And the 928 was S H I T. Just a rebadged volkswagon. However the 968 is the car I was thinking of.

http://www.dennigcars.com/Pages/968_models_en.htm

I feel dirty for getting it wrong, 10 lashes please.
 
2005-07-06 08:56:14 AM  
And I thought Ford meant - Found On Road, Dead.
 
2005-07-06 08:57:32 AM  
2005-07-06 08:45:27 AM Holden.McGroyne

Did you forget to take some pills today or something?

Americans refusing to work for less than $20/hr? Bullshiat. Most jobs in my area only pay $8/hr. You might get 10-12 for skilled labor like machinists and welders, but that's about the best you can hope for these days.

OF course, I'm sure we'd all still be better off if half the population were illiterate, right?

Damned libertarians...
 
2005-07-06 08:58:03 AM  
Holden.McGroyne:

I notice that fuel economy and reliability are nowhere on your list. This mentality is exactly why US autos have lagged the Japanese and even the Europeans in everything except straight line acceleration. Good lord people there's more to life than going fast and turning left.


Actually The american automakers abandoned V-8 and RWD years ago. Except their retarded SUVs.

I'm thinking more like a Corvette and the new GTO and the new 300C. That is the right direction.

I could give a rats arse about fuel economy for me. I drove high mileage cars for years. Now I want the juice. You can do your part.

If you want to know the real reason why the US lags behind the foreign automakers, it's quality

/Buys German anyway
 
2005-07-06 08:58:50 AM  
What about a reliability war? American cars are nothing but cheap throw-away cars after 100,000. Hell, I've heard of Civics running that long on the original oil!!! Every "new" American car my friends have gotten over the past 10 years have all been in and out of the garage like a doctor-visiting hypochondriac who's born to a munchousen syndrome mother.
 
2005-07-06 08:59:28 AM  
mode:

They'd completely missed the point of the car -- to look, feel, and be powerful. Luckily, Lutz shut them the hell up.

That has nothing to do with a value based car looking good. You're an idiot.
 
2005-07-06 09:02:24 AM  
F1

Thanks. I saw what happened on the show when they told everyone. Freaking hilarious.
 
2005-07-06 09:04:21 AM  
killuminati: One person who will never again buy a Ford:

Did he have problems with his GT40?
 
2005-07-06 09:04:41 AM  
St. Apatheism: And the 928 was S H I T. Just a rebadged volkswagon.


Ummmmmmm. No.

The 928 was the flagship car. Very nice machine as it evolved.

Ever drive one? I doubt it very much. Built like a Panzer tank.

The biggest problem was cost. Both new purchase and then further costs to maintain. My freind had one for like 10 years. Every time the hood went up it was like a grand.

$2K /year to keep it in tip top shape.

It was not S H I T.

You need to do more reading on cars before you post.
 
2005-07-06 09:06:09 AM  
Mode;

I didn't say that.

vegasj;

I have a Chevy 2500HD xcab. I love it. I drive my throw-away cars for the mileage, and the truck when I need a truck.
 
2005-07-06 09:09:00 AM  


This is the Ariel Atom. What you see is what you get - if it doesn't need it, it hasn't got it.

/yes, it's road legal
//no, of course it isn't practical
///if I wanted practical I'd drive a volvo
////imageshack
 
2005-07-06 09:09:43 AM  
GoSurfing

That's CSI, not IQS. Initial Quality is mreasured by an outside company who surveys the people who purchase new vehicles. Customer Satisfaction Index is measured by manufacturers to track satisfaction among dealerships.

There's a lot of negativity about biases among IQS and how domestics caught up to the import level of 10 years ago, but there are still quiet rumblings about how Toyota's tide is turning.
 
2005-07-06 09:09:50 AM  
ski_adk115

Original oil, eh?
 
2005-07-06 09:11:01 AM  
CrazyCooter01
I agree that cars, even north american ones, can last 200-300k if taken care of well. unfortunately I live in Canada and the elements (especially salt on the roads) leads to corrosion...usually the bodies give out no later than 15 years. I just had replace my 1993 VW Golf...engine was solid as a rock w/ 160k km on it, but even with rustproofing most of the car was coming apart due to rust.

Chrystlers and GMs from the 80s were such pieces of crap... Buick Century and Chrystler Dynasty must have been the more fault-prone cars in the history of man. On my family's Dynasty the transmission broke 3 times before 100,000km. The best part was 2 of the name-brand replacements were shipped faulty! Technically it was 5 trans that were flawed.

Now I drive a used Ford Explorer (2002 to get the independent suspension and improved crash protection with the new model year) and a 2003 Honda Civic. Fuel economy for the Explorer sucks, but the 2003 Civic car insurance costs more so it balances out! Ridiculous, but true...i don't drive more than 20k km a year in either vehicle though so YMMV.

If you buy a fully loaded Ford Explorer XLT its about $50k Canadian off the lot. Once it has 40k km on it though, you can get it ~$25k... mine had 80k and I bargained for $17k, bought an extended warranty (hey its North American, i was nervous) for another $2000.... so I'm set until 2008 now.

Note: After extensive research I concluded the Ford Explorer rollover problem was a MYTH. Check the 2004 data for Toyota 4Runner vs Nissan Pathfinder vs Ford Explorer from the NHTA...Explorer is the safest vehicle! Frontal collision, offset collision, rollover, etc. I can't speak for model reliablility yet, but so far so good.
 
2005-07-06 09:11:02 AM  
http://users.compaqnet.be/skyimages/porsche2/p959/p959uk.html


Might not be the best car in the world anymore but you can't tell me that reading this is not the equivilant of porn.
 
2005-07-06 09:11:07 AM  
killuminati

Clarkson owns a Volvo XC90. Just got a GT40 although had loads of problems getting that and always speaks highly of the Focus.
 
2005-07-06 09:11:31 AM  
All Wheel Drive
Turbocharged 2.0L Mitsubishi 4G63
Manual Tansmission
Independent Suspension
Minimal Electronics
Good Brakes

 
2005-07-06 09:12:20 AM  
What is "American" made? When I last talked to Saturn, they promoted themselves as the highest percentage American with something like 87% US parts, 97% put together in the US. Most GM products are parted from foreign plants and put together in the US, I believe the average for them was 65% parts, 80% built. Seriously, if we could lower the finance rates on "US Manufacturers", that would do more to help than any of this "US vs. foreign" argument crud.
//% may be way off. The last time I cared it was 1995.
//Happy with a cool hybrid now - I'm at the pump only once a month.
 
2005-07-06 09:13:45 AM  
thisispete:

killuminati: One person who will never again buy a Ford:

Did he have problems with his GT40?



Nevermind, I read F-1's article. Shocking. Ford does produce a good car now and then, though. The Ka was a pretty impressive shopping basket.
 
2005-07-06 09:14:53 AM  
thousands of years ago the great pricewar.......
 
2005-07-06 09:15:31 AM  
Phil Herup: You need to do more reading on cars before you post.

No, I don't. What I need to do is like a car manufacturer that dosent use such an assinine naming system.

924=crap
928=good
944=good (drove one for 4 years)
968=better (I want one of these being realistic)
911=better
959=best non GT
 
2005-07-06 09:16:45 AM  
St. Apatheism:

Might not be the best car in the world anymore but you can't tell me that reading this is not the equivilant of porn.


Amazing car. The 959.
 
2005-07-06 09:19:00 AM  
Ubergrendle;

I live in Maine. Uh, we have salt. Lots of it. Between living on the coast, and the salt on the roads, I have had to deal with my fair share of vehicles that were no longer road worthy but still running. Frame rot is not fun.

You may have an explorer, but so does everyone else. This leads to low resale value. The last SUV I had was a 98 4runner which was sold with 100k miles; we bought it for 20k, and sold it for 14k. It was fine on the road. No problems, no warranty issues, last good year in my opinion -- it was a 5 speed, 4 cyl, with ac. Nice truck.
 
2005-07-06 09:19:50 AM  
I own a nearly new focus(fast, works, 30+mpg)

and an F150(6cyl, man trans, 30+mpg)

before that I owned a ford escort wagon, died at 200k miles

before that I owned a ford crown vic police special (it caught fire)

/will definetly buy ford again
//dad owned 3 ford trucks, first two retired after 250k miles, third one new this year.
///Have owned and driven to death other cars besides fords. it just seems that fords run
 
2005-07-06 09:19:57 AM  
qwyeth: I'll believe they're on par when I see American cars still running well at 200k+ miles.

My '93 Ford Explorer is pushing 280,000 miles. It has never been in the shop for any breakdown, though I did replace the alternator once myself when it went bad because the battery cable was corroded, which I also replaced myself. It has a bit of rust, but I expect that.
 
2005-07-06 09:20:23 AM  
St. Apatheism: And the 928 was S H I T. Just a rebadged volkswagen.

928=good


Some confusion in your posts.

Did you mean the 924 is S H I T, cause I'll agree there.
 
2005-07-06 09:21:24 AM  
I am still waiting for the day when a car is as disposable as a Lexmark printer and you throw it away when it runs out of gas or needs new windshield wipers.

It's called a Camry. It is a Walmart world. We looked at about 40 of them when she went shopping for a replacement for her Lemon. All of them had the exact same interior. That was kinda weird.

I prefer American cars (this almost guarantees I'll get flamed) because I've had better luck with them. They are cheaper (for me at least) to purchase, repair and maintain than Japanese BRANDED vehicles. They tend to have more character and less resemblence to a toaster or other appliance.

Yeah, a Honda will go 100,000 on its break-in oil. I have to add that to my list of reasons to buy one.
 
2005-07-06 09:22:29 AM  
The Corvette, new GTO, and Hummer H1 are excluded from GM's extension. The Corvette for obvious reasons, the GTO because it really is an import from Australia and far better quality than anything else GM has to offer in the price range, and the H1 to try to encourage the soccer moms that the trailblazer is just as good?

I want what Phil Herup wants, and have it with my GTO. I just wish we had the opportunity to dig farther into Holden's lineup. I would love to have one of their "Utes" over as Chevrolet's new elCamino.
 
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