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(National Review)   When the Seneate's 2nd ranking Democrat compares American soliders of Nazism the Washington Post burys it on page 6; when a White House aide calls liberals wimps, it goes on page 1; when submitter's outrage affects spelling, it gets greenlit   (corner.nationalreview.com) divider line 704
    More: Asinine  
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11723 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Jun 2005 at 4:10 PM (10 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2005-06-24 01:22:14 PM  
Clinton?

The intelligence of this conversation just dropped like a rock.

Tatsuma:

And then, could you tell me why aren't the detainees getting the same treatment that the SCOTUS said they must have and the Bush Administration refuse to cooperate?

See my post above.
 
2005-06-24 01:25:20 PM  
About the new Abu Ghraib photos.. this is coming from Reason Magazine, magazine that both Rush Limbaugh AND the ACLU likes. That ought to make both sides satisfied, source-wise

The images, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told Congress, depict "acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel, and inhuman." After Sen. Saxby Chambliss (R-Ga.) viewed some of them in a classified briefing, he testified that his "stomach gave out." NBC News reported that they show "American soldiers beating one prisoner almost to death, apparently raping a female prisoner, acting inappropriately with a dead body, and taping Iraqi guards raping young boys." Everyone who saw the photographs and videos seemed to shudder openly when contemplating what the reaction would be when they eventually were made public.

If they are released, shiat will hit the fan
 
2005-06-24 01:25:26 PM  
Spread your slander somewhere else.

You first :D
 
2005-06-24 01:27:17 PM  
GraphicAddiction: The intelligence of this conversation just dropped like a rock.

I don't think so, I think it's a very valid question.

You support our CIC, you support his administration and you obviously think that it's not their fault. Would you feel the same way about a Democrat administration?

Somehow I feel we would be on the same side if it was the case

and ANSWER ME:
The army ruled that it was an homocide yet WON'T INVESTIGATE about Manadel. Isn't that the proof you were searching for?
 
2005-06-24 01:28:38 PM  
GraphicAddiction

No...that IS my point. Nobody gets away with anything that can be proven. It all gets out and people get upset.


And when it gets out, right wing assholes like Bill O'Reilly, Karl Rove and Congressman Joe Wilson claim that the whistleblowers and critics are "traitors".
 
2005-06-24 01:30:55 PM  
pontechango:

And when it gets out, right wing assholes like Bill O'Reilly, Karl Rove and Congressman Joe Wilson claim that the whistleblowers and critics are "traitors".

Funny story...

When Specialist Joseph Darby blew the lid off the Abu Ghraib story, he received s much death threats that he had to be placed in protective costudy
 
2005-06-24 01:31:45 PM  
suebhoney: What have you done?

The same. So?

Tatsuma: The Army ruled it was a homicide, yet they refused to investigate further.

Obdicut: Your contention that "the guilty are punished" is kinda undermined when you cite a homicide that wasn't investigated.

If there is recorded testimony it was investigated. If you'd like it investigated FURTHER, write your congressman.

if it wasn't investigated, how can you do it further?
 
2005-06-24 01:32:32 PM  
slander ( P ) Pronunciation Key (slndr)
n.

Law. Oral communication of false statements injurious to a person's reputation.
A false and malicious statement or report about someone.


GA, your whole argument has been that as long as the perpertrators of the torture are prosecuted, it's a-okay. I fail to see how that falls under the definition of "slander." But hey, it's all a matter of how one interprets aothers post.

So, one more time, why aren't you upset that higher ups, who give the orders to these low-level soldiers aren't being held accountable? You want the perpertrators to be caught and prosecuted right?
 
2005-06-24 01:32:52 PM  
pontechango: And when it gets out, right wing assholes like Bill O'Reilly, Karl Rove and Congressman Joe Wilson claim that the whistleblowers and critics are "traitors".

I don't watch ANY of them. So?
 
2005-06-24 01:33:31 PM  
Hmmm I seem to have lost an 'n'. *anothers
 
2005-06-24 01:35:05 PM  
Tatsuma

Exactly. This is just like Bjorn Lomberg calling environmentalists irrational and pointing out all the success of the environmental movement without crediting any of those successes to the obvious change in policies caused by the environmental movement. It'd be like liberals saying that we never needed to capture Saddam because he's already in US custody. It's an astoundingly disingenous and stupid line of thinking.
 
2005-06-24 01:35:28 PM  
suebhoney:

So, one more time, why aren't you upset that higher ups, who give the orders to these low-level soldiers aren't being held accountable? You want the perpertrators to be caught and prosecuted right?

I'm done and hitting the bed.. keep up the good fight, I doubt he'll answer
 
2005-06-24 01:35:33 PM  
suebhoney:

GA, your whole argument has been that as long as the perpertrators of the torture are prosecuted, it's a-okay.

PLEASE show me where I said that or shut up.

So, one more time, why aren't you upset that higher ups, who give the orders to these low-level soldiers aren't being held accountable?

Are you trying to tell me that the grunts who abuse inmates are told to do this by their commanding officers?

Do cops who shoot unarmed people have their CO's fired as well?
 
2005-06-24 01:37:55 PM  
2005-06-24 01:31:45 PM GraphicAddiction


suebhoney: What have you done?

The same. So?


Well, gee, if that's how you feel, don't you think you'd be better off spending your time, today, right now, calling your representatives or emailing them to let them know just how disgusted you are by this whole situation and you would like some answers from them on what exactly they intend to do about it?

I've called mine. Unfortunately, I only ever get the person who answers the phone. I guess I'll email my rep/Senators and give them a link to this thread. Let them see how people feel about these "bad apples."
 
2005-06-24 01:37:55 PM  
Tatsuma: 'm done and hitting the bed.. keep up the good fight, I doubt he'll answer

Wishful thinking there, sparky.

Bet you wish I hadn't answered that last one.
 
2005-06-24 01:48:57 PM  
There isn't a Fark bias either, or so I've been told.
 
2005-06-24 01:49:19 PM  
G A, Sue B:

Oh will you two just kiss and get it over with, already?

/cue swelling violins
 
2005-06-24 01:50:53 PM  
GraphicAddiction

Are you trying to tell me that the grunts who abuse inmates are told to do this by their commanding officers?


They created the conditions for them to happen for a reason.
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040524fa_fact

According to interviews with several past and present American intelligence officials, the Pentagon's operation, known inside the intelligence community by several code words, including Copper Green, encouraged physical coercion and sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners in an effort to generate more intelligence about the growing insurgency in Iraq. A senior C.I.A. official, in confirming the details of this account last week, said that the operation stemmed from Rumsfeld's long-standing desire to wrest control of America's clandestine and paramilitary operations from the C.I.A.

...

In a separate interview, a Pentagon consultant, who spent much of his career directly involved with special-access programs, spread the blame. "The White House subcontracted this to the Pentagon, and the Pentagon subcontracted it to Cambone," he said. "This is Cambone's deal, but Rumsfeld and Myers approved the program." When it came to the interrogation operation at Abu Ghraib, he said, Rumsfeld left the details to Cambone. Rumsfeld may not be personally culpable, the consultant added, "but he's responsible for the checks and balances. The issue is that, since 9/11, we've changed the rules on how we deal with terrorism, and created conditions where the ends justify the means."
 
2005-06-24 01:51:01 PM  
gilgigamesh: Oh will you two just kiss and get it over with, already?

Hey, I can't help my animal magnetism. It just happens.
 
2005-06-24 01:55:27 PM  
pontechango: encouraged physical coercion and sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners in an effort to generate more intelligence about the growing insurgency in Iraq.

Nowhere do I see an endorsement of killing prisoners.

If you're gonna go off about interrogation techniques, we're off track on the Nazi/gulag business.
 
2005-06-24 01:57:19 PM  
Yes, I believe they are being given orders.

3 different areas with cases of abuse in all of them is mighty coincidental.
 
2005-06-24 01:58:06 PM  
2005-06-24 01:49:19 PM gilgigamesh

Something tells me he couldn't handle an opinionated women ;)


JUST KIDDING GA *smooch*
 
2005-06-24 01:58:44 PM  
im pretty glad i came late to this one
 
2005-06-24 02:01:46 PM  
GraphicAddiction

If you're gonna go off about interrogation techniques, we're off track on the Nazi/gulag business.


Interrogation techniques are off track? Who the fark do you think you're kidding?
Army Details Scale of Abuse of Prisoners in an Afghan Jail

The reports, obtained by Human Rights Watch, provide the first official account of events that led to the deaths of the detainees, Mullah Habibullah and Mr. Dilawar, at the Bagram Control Point, about 40 miles north of Kabul. The deaths took place nearly a year before the abuses at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.

Among those implicated in the killings at Bagram were members of Company A of the 519th Military Intelligence Battalion, from Fort Bragg, N.C. The battalion went on to Iraq, where some members established the interrogation unit at Abu Ghraib and have been implicated in some abuses there.

The reports, from the Army Criminal Investigation Command, also make clear that the abuse at Bagram went far beyond the two killings. Among those recommended for prosecution is an Army military interrogator from the 519th Battalion who is said to have "placed his penis along the face" of one Afghan detainee and later to have "simulated anally sodomizing him (over his clothes)."
 
2005-06-24 02:06:26 PM  
GraphicAddiction: Do cops who shoot unarmed people have their CO's fired as well?

Every one of these police analogies you've tossed out has been irrelevant because they're missing one key ingredient: tacit approval from the Chief of Police.

Everyone here is saying that it's a good thing that the grunts are being prosecuted, but it's a bad thing that the government is trying to end the investigation there when there is just cause to investigate further. You're acting like everyone is saying the entire military is to blame and they're all Hitlers and you're the only reasonable person here because you know that justice is being served.

When you're heading down the highway and all the cars are going the wrong way, it's wise to pull over and examine the situation further.
 
2005-06-24 02:07:50 PM  
suebhoney

3 different areas with cases of abuse in all of them is mighty coincidental.


Operation Copper Green. We know they aren't coincidental. These cases are the logical outcome of executive policy.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5092776/site/newsweek/

The Abu Ghraib Scandal Cover-Up?

Bush insists that 'a few American troops' dishonored the country. But prisoner abuse was more widespread, and some insiders believe that much remains hidden

This is how the Defense Department handled these crimes, GraphicAddiction
Donald Rumsfeld's Defense Department is doing its best to stop potentially incriminating information from coming out, that it's deflecting Congress's inquiries and shielding higher-ups from investigation. Documents obtained by NEWSWEEK also suggest that Rumsfeld's aides are trying hard to contain the scandal, even within the Pentagon. Defense Under Secretary Douglas Feith, who is in charge of setting policy on prisoners and detainees in occupied Iraq, has banned any discussion of the still-classified report on Abu Ghraib written by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, which has circulated around the world. Shortly after the Taguba report leaked in early May, Feith subordinates sent an "urgent" e-mail around the Pentagon warning officials not to read the report, even though it was on Fox News. In the e-mail, a copy of which was obtained by NEWSWEEK, officials in Feith's office warn that the leak is being investigated for "criminal prosecution" and that no one should mention the Taguba report to anybody, even to family members. Feith has turned his office into a "ministry of fear," says one military lawyer. A spokesman for Feith, Maj. Paul Swiergosz, says the e-mail warning was intended to prevent employees from downloading a classified report onto unclassified computers.
 
2005-06-24 02:12:15 PM  
June 30th is going to be one helluva day :(
 
2005-06-24 02:14:06 PM  
BigTuna:

When you're heading down the highway and all the cars are going the wrong way, it's wise to pull over and examine the situation further.

Who says the other three cars are heading in the right direction? Going along with the crowd means SQUAT.

Every one of these police analogies you've tossed out has been irrelevant because they're missing one key ingredient: tacit approval from the Chief of Police.

To interrogate violent prisoners? Sure. Last I checked, no one has permission to kill in either situation.

--------------------

Posting opinion pieces are hardly conclusive evidence of wrong doing.

We're getting into shiat that has nothing to do with the Nazi analogy and the Washington post burying it.
 
2005-06-24 02:14:22 PM  
suebhoney: June 30th is going to be one helluva day :(

Tell me about it. My mom's turning 60. :S
 
2005-06-24 02:18:11 PM  
TT_TT_P: im pretty glad i came late to this one

That's actually good advice. At this stage you can tell the spinners from the trolls from the those who want some honest discussion. And jumping into the fray isn't that hard.
 
2005-06-24 02:20:34 PM  
GraphicAddiction:

Who says the other three cars are heading in the right direction?

Three? Better get your eyes checked too.

To interrogate violent prisoners? Sure. Last I checked, no one has permission to kill in either situation.

TACIT APPROVAL TO BEAT PEOPLE WITHIN AN INCH OF THEIR LIVES. Christ al-farking-mighty you're absolutely hellbent on avoiding the issue of culpability at higher levels. Whatever. Reduce coherent arguments to nonsensical pieces all you want. This thread speaks volumes.
 
2005-06-24 02:21:56 PM  
GraphicAddiction: There are WAY more people who would report this type of behavior than there are who would enact it. [or cover it up]

It's coming out. Heads will roll.

I gotta go.
 
2005-06-24 02:22:08 PM  
GraphicAddiction

We're getting into shiat that has nothing to do with the Nazi analogy and the Washington post burying it.


That's because you keep wrongly proclaiming that the Defense Department has held abusive interrorators accountable of its own accord.
 
2005-06-24 02:27:08 PM  
If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime -- Pol Pot or others -- that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners.

The question should really be: What was he going to read to the President?
 
2005-06-24 02:27:17 PM  
BigTuna:

TACIT APPROVAL TO BEAT PEOPLE WITHIN AN INCH OF THEIR LIVES. Christ al-farking-mighty you're absolutely hellbent on avoiding the issue of culpability at higher levels.

Inch of their lives? I didn't read that anywhere.

This thread speaks volumes.

Sure, if you count preaching and finger pointing.
 
2005-06-24 02:27:45 PM  
[image from 24.249.98.5 too old to be available]

D_I_A

The US is in no way, shape or form even close to being anything like Pol Pot's killing fields in Cambodia, Stalin's forced labor/death camps in Siberia, Hiltlers death machine in Europe or even FDR's detention camps in the US. Not even close. There is no comparison whatsoever. Zero. Zilch. Nada.


I'm not so sure anymore. We have an unknown number of prison camps scattered in unknown parts of the globe holding unknown number of prisoners.

All we have to go on for reassurance that we are not doing any mass torture/killings in isolated places FAR from Gitmo is the president's word on the matter.

Only the word of a president (along with his Sec Def and Attorney General) who don't care AT ALL about human rights or the constitution.

Only the word of a president who repeatedly lied to us all.

Quite frankly, if mass graves of charred Iraqi bodies are dug up in Diego Garcia or some little U.S. outpost in the pacific I've never heard of, I won't be surprised.

True, the U.S. may not be able to match the body count of Pol Pot, Hitler, or Stalin, but that won't make it any less depraved.


/hope I'm wrong
 
2005-06-24 02:30:33 PM  
pshaw: What was he going to read to the President?

Let me clarify: What were the full reports.
 
2005-06-24 02:32:25 PM  
GraphicAddiction: Inch of their lives? I didn't read that anywhere.

Consider yourself educated. And look up the definition of tacit while you're at it.
 
2005-06-24 02:48:31 PM  
Dancin_In_Anson:

I will say this again. The US is in no way, shape or form even close to being anything like Pol Pot's killing fields in Cambodia, Stalin's forced labor/death camps in Siberia, Hiltlers death machine in Europe or even FDR's detention camps in the US. Not even close. There is no comparison whatsoever. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

And any attempt to make any comparison is delusional in it's conception.

But I do understand how ones blind hatred of another can make one delusional.


But we could become like them! Germany in 1938 wasn't like it was in 1942 either. It takes steps to reach a certain point, and we're taking those first steps, and you're a fool if you think otherwise.

ONE Torture is ONE too Many!
 
2005-06-24 04:01:34 PM  
*settles back, pops popcorn*
 
2005-06-24 04:04:06 PM  
I think we can safely assume the flame war is over.
 
2005-06-24 04:17:33 PM  
BillCosby

Want to bet money? It's about to get the green light.
 
2005-06-24 04:17:33 PM  
People who still support this presidents decision to go to war and create the Gitmo detention facility are farking idiots.

People who tell you that you don't support the troops because you don't support the decision to go to war or his decision to create the Gitmo detention facility are even bigger farking idiots.

'Nuff Said.
 
2005-06-24 04:17:40 PM  
OMG WHERE'S THE OUTRAGE AMERICA IS ALWYS RIGHT111!!!!!!eleveneleven1!

For the sake of continuing the flame war: the Branch Davidians were terrorists and Reno was right to invade their compound.

Discuss.
 
2005-06-24 04:17:45 PM  
 
2005-06-24 04:17:59 PM  
[image from images.google.com too old to be available]
 
2005-06-24 04:18:21 PM  
Glad to see everyone getting along so well here. I knew this thread would bring out the best in everyone.
 
2005-06-24 04:18:37 PM  
OMFG LIBERAL CONSPIRACY!!!111

Here's a tip folks, if you're in power, the media will be gunning for you. Your only saving grace is to have astronomically high approval ratings, and even then you better be careful.

It's about stories that sizzle and dollars, not politics.

/get over it.
 
2005-06-24 04:18:42 PM  
My take on this whole she-bang:

Durbin is trying to score political points. That's politics as usual, but this time he's using the US military and the DOD as his pawns. DURING WARTIME. That makes him a triple-mocha dumbass with cherries on top.

What happened at Abu Ghraib was horrible and should not be tolerated. Those responsible should and are being punished.

Guantanamo isn't the same place as Abu Ghraib. Stop trying to make it seem so. It's under more press scrutiny than ANY OTHER PRISON IN THE WORLD. It's been visited numerous times by the Red Cross and other organizations.

As Americans, we should be subjecting our own government to scrutiny.

But that's not the same as the flaming nutjobs who hate Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney, and Israel who spend all their time trying to dig up dirt that will discredit them. Guess what, guys. There are people who hate Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney, and Israel even more than you. They're terrorists. And everytime another Durbin goes off on an unhinged bender of speculative opinion, it gives the terrorist a little more rhetorical ground.

That's my opinion. Peace out.
 
2005-06-24 04:20:12 PM  

This is the same "newspaper" whose only "coverage" of Conyer's hearing a week ago was a snarky opinion piece riddled with factual errors and ad hominem attacks that was, I believe, on page A6

WaPo are equal-opportunity asshats.

 
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