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(Some Guy)   Suspect sought after two of five women injected at "home silicon party" hospitalized. In other news, women are having "home silicon parties"   (kfmb.com) divider line 185
    More: Stupid  
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19499 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Jun 2005 at 12:42 AM (10 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2005-06-24 01:27:13 PM  
redstater:

I don't have any problem with cross-dressing or being gay or whatever people want to do, but cutting off perfectly functional penises (or arms and legs such as previous article) really ought to be against the law.

So should your stupidity. But, alas, we have to deal with it...
 
2005-06-24 01:29:01 PM  
wanting to become something you can never be is not a valid desire. Fix your head, don't hack your dick. Sorry you didn't win life's lotto but guess what noone is perfect.
 
2005-06-24 01:30:40 PM  
wanting to become something you can never be is not a valid desire.

Like well-spoken and intelligent?
 
2005-06-24 01:30:52 PM  
I'm a sick fark. Woot!

Apparently, I just dig sick farks. lol Ah, well, I'll take what I can get.

/It's a sick world, and I'm a happy guy.
 
2005-06-24 01:32:35 PM  
wanting to become something you can never be is not a valid desire.

Tell me... with hormone treatment and corrective surgery, why is it that they cannot become what they want (need) to be?
 
2005-06-24 01:34:54 PM  
because insulting my intelligence somehow makes your argument seem more rational? You aren't special. Noone on this planet is always 100% happy with the way their body looks. Most of us learn how to deal without resorting to permanent mutilation.
 
2005-06-24 01:35:09 PM  
Eclectic

Sigh. You folks really ought to attempt to understand gender dysphoria before you condemn a bunch of folks you've never even met.


I am going to come right out and say I don't understand, and please, help me with this confusion. Honestly, I want to know. Please note all uses of "you" are rhetorical, and refer to the transgender crowd in general... I am just asking your opinion on the general feelings of the group.

Now, you say your "nuerological gender" does not match your physical gender, right? Now your case is a little different because you have Klinefelter's, you are genetically and hormonally ambiguous, but imagine a normal XY male who believes he is transgendered.

Now, what does that really mean? Does it mean he is gay? Not necessarily. I could feel transgendered and feel I was meant to be a lesbian. Does it mean that he thinks like a woman does? If that be the case, I see no reason for physical change. So what if society at large doesn't accept that and thinks him weird... find the small population that accepts and likes that. That's what other "weird" people do. Changing yourself to be a female will not help your weirdness factor at all... people still will not see you as female.

Why the need to physically change your body? Does that somehow make you feel better? You say you want your body to match your feelings, but how does that make you any different than deciding I just don't like my jawbone and want it different (and why would I think that... obviously someone... society... gave me the opinion that another kind of jaw is better)? Is it because you absolutely feel that you can only be complete in a sexual sense with a vagina, and the psychological ramifications of that sexual identity? I don't think that full sexual stimulation is possible once the change is made: you can't just build a clitoris with all those happy nerves, right? Please correct me if I am wrong. The penetrative psychological part can be serviced in other ways, and the submissive role can be as well. I can't think of a single psychological aspect of sex that could be modified with surgery that could not otherwise be satisfied.

So if my transgender status is not the same as homosexuality, and not simply trying to conform physically to some societal expectation of what I should be, and not a genetic ambiguity, then what is it? I am all for letting you do it, it's your body and you can hack off and reattach all you want. But why?

I honestly do want to understand.
 
2005-06-24 01:36:21 PM  
Tell me... with hormone treatment and corrective surgery, why is it that they cannot become what they want (need) to be?


By way of pre-emptive strike, I'll guess that their argument relies on lack of a uterus. I'd hate to be their wife/mother/girlfirend after a hysterectomy.
 
2005-06-24 01:37:53 PM  
NiN

Because a biological woman is something more than a collection of chemicals, and a vagina is something more than a hole someone carved out like a piece of stuffed meat.
 
2005-06-24 01:38:21 PM  
Noone on this planet is always 100% happy with the way their body looks.

Perhaps the people who are 95% happy ought not be telling the people who are 0% happy how to achieve self peace.
 
2005-06-24 01:45:56 PM  
r_k_ologist

By way of pre-emptive strike, I'll guess that their argument relies on lack of a uterus. I'd hate to be their wife/mother/girlfirend after a hysterectomy.


Just from personal experience with family, the women don't have to be told they are thought of as less of a woman or not a woman... which I don't think anyone really thinks... it's equivalent to getting a (permanent) tubal ligation in that sense. They think of that all on their own.
 
2005-06-24 01:47:30 PM  
redstater

Because a biological woman is something more than a collection of chemicals


And the horrors of naive acceptance of Cartesian dualism continue...
 
2005-06-24 01:48:28 PM  
so you mean to tell me that happiness is a direct consequence of one's physical appearance and not a mental phenomenon? get real and sorry your parents didn't hug you
 
2005-06-24 01:49:30 PM  
r_k_ologist: Like well-spoken and intelligent?

Gmail in profile, send me a message. I would just write to you, but you don't have yours listed. ;)

Clever Neologism:

Just from personal experience with family, the women don't have to be told they are thought of as less of a woman or not a woman... which I don't think anyone really thinks... it's equivalent to getting a (permanent) tubal ligation in that sense. They think of that all on their own.

But they aren't, right?
 
2005-06-24 01:50:06 PM  
Clever Neologism

I was referring to the fact that so many arguments against transsexual women rely on the fact that they don't have all th e'right' equipment, as if having a uterus was a prerequisite for womanhood.
 
2005-06-24 01:51:37 PM  
They say that the Lord helps those who help themselves; I just injected my penis with a solution of botulism toxin and bee venom.

In other news, I don't think I'll be needing plungers to deal with those annoying toilet clogs anymore.

/apologies
 
2005-06-24 01:51:56 PM  
Damn! Since when has sarcastic humor ever been required to be "sensitive"? I thought by definition it was quite the opposite. And I assume that sarcastic and/or caustic humor is what is going on here, as hate speech is not allowed by Fark rules, and would undoubtedly result in mod action. Right? So here is the deal...if you think that hate speech is going on, report it to a mod. Otherwise sit back, enjoy your turn on the comedic hot seat, and take it like a...oh, right...never mind. Just don't equate hearing jokes made at your expense with generalized actual insensitivity. It makes you look sillier than Mrs. Doubtfire.
 
2005-06-24 01:53:54 PM  
r_k_ologist

I was referring to the fact that so many arguments against transsexual women rely on the fact that they don't have all th e'right' equipment, as if having a uterus was a prerequisite for womanhood.


Right. I was just commenting aside on the last sentence there... my aunts came up with their own psychological punishments... no one accused them of being any less of anything.
 
2005-06-24 01:55:11 PM  
Balchinian

So, I have two alternatives:

Report it to a mod, which is likely over-reacting and will result in no positive benefit; or

Try and engage people in intellectual debate, and hopefully bring about a small change in the public perception of transgendered individuals.

I'll be proactive, thanks.
 
2005-06-24 01:56:12 PM  
Clever Neologism: horrors of naive acceptance of Cartesian dualism

What makes you so certain that anyone who accepts Cartesian dualism is being naive? Narrow-minded much?
 
2005-06-24 02:00:58 PM  
Because a biological woman is something more than a collection of chemicals, and a vagina is something more than a hole someone carved out like a piece of stuffed meat.

Well, no, biology is really all about chemicals. In fact, it's nothing more than applied organic chemistry when you come down to it. Okay, so they'll never be able to have kids, but then again not every 'real' woman can anyway.

But there's also a psychological aspect to womanhood, which I believe is a key aspect of being transgendered in the first place.
 
2005-06-24 02:03:12 PM  
ok strike the word biological because I wasn't talking about biology.
 
2005-06-24 02:07:20 PM  
Intellectual debate? Good choice of websites, Einstein.
*rolls eyes*

Just out of curiosity, why do you care so much what other people's perception of you is? Is your happiness that dependent on what others think of you?
 
2005-06-24 02:07:35 PM  
ok strike the word biological because I wasn't talking about biology.

Well, you can't mean genetic female because you can ask Eclectic about her genetic makeup any day. There are verifiable medical issues there as well.

Once you strike chemistry and genetics, and one admits that the head wiring is skewed towards female, what's left to talk about?

And this is about more than just 'looks'. We're not talking about someone who's going in to have their nose bobbed. These people are re-writing their roles and position in this society as a correction. I don't really think that, say, Bear_Toy could get away with that.

Eclectic can now that she's adopted a look which society which accept, and a body which her mind will accept.
 
2005-06-24 02:08:11 PM  
ok, so you acknowledge that there is a psychological aspect. Then why can this unhappiness not be rectified through therapy and introspection?

I know gay men that are much more closer to being 'psychologically female', and heck I even know straight men with self-admitted effeminate tendencies. All of them do fine without surgically removing their sex organs.
 
2005-06-24 02:09:10 PM  
redstater:

so you mean to tell me that happiness is a direct consequence of one's physical appearance and not a mental phenomenon? get real and sorry your parents didn't hug you

So, if you suddenly didn't have a cock but did have breasts, you would just shake it off and become a woman? And, just dela with it?

That's how it feels to be born with a penis when you are a woman. You are a woman. Yet you have a penis. So, everyone in the world treats you like a man. So, you decide that you will make your life easier and get rid of the thing that "makes" you a man.

Would you keep the breasts and vagina and just live as a woman? Even if going back to a man was available?
 
2005-06-24 02:12:01 PM  
redstater:

I know gay men that are much more closer to being 'psychologically female', and heck I even know straight men with self-admitted effeminate tendencies. All of them do fine without surgically removing their sex organs.

But they are men.

It would be as easy to convince you that you are really a woman as it would be convince a transwoman that she is really a man.

How do you know you are a man? Is it because of your thoughts and feelings? Because you feel like a man?

I think you are a woman. So, go to some farking therapy and act like one, dammit!

Doesn't that sound stupid? So do you.
 
2005-06-24 02:13:38 PM  
ok, so you acknowledge that there is a psychological aspect. Then why can this unhappiness not be rectified through therapy and introspection?

Because this isn't an issue that you can go in, admit that you hate your mother, and then be fine. We're talking hard wiring and that's not really going to go away.

Oh, sure, mood altering chemicals can probably help but what kind of way is that to live? Probably many opt for that route and find ways to make it work for them. Not all do, however.

Re-write your self phsycially, or re-write yourself neurologically? How is one better or worse than the other? Both sound like valid options, and I would support whichever one a person in that situation choose.
 
2005-06-24 02:14:50 PM  
genderwar

Clever Neologism:

Just from personal experience with family, the women don't have to be told they are thought of as less of a woman or not a woman... which I don't think anyone really thinks... it's equivalent to getting a (permanent) tubal ligation in that sense. They think of that all on their own.

But they aren't, right?


I don't think they are any less anything, except perhaps they weigh an few ounces less. I don't believe in gender, manhood, or womanhood as something that exists without society's creation of it in the form of roles and expectations, so no, they are in no way less biologically female: they still don't have a Y chromosome. They are no less of a person or individual unless they choose to be.

Are they any less of a woman? Well, by whose standards of womanhood would you want me to judge?
 
2005-06-24 02:17:34 PM  
Yes, you should work with what you are given. Why is that hard for you to understand? Be a freak , be a queer (note I don't use this in the perjorative sense), but you can live an infinite range of lifestyles without resorting to drastic permanent surgery.

I don't understand why in this day and age of the INTERNET , people still feel the need to conform to an unrealistic expectation of society.

I feel more sympathy towards Eclectic because of relatively rare circumstances of her birth defect, but aren't most male-to-female trannies XY by definition?
 
2005-06-24 02:19:37 PM  
ust out of curiosity, why do you care so much what other people's perception of you is? Is your happiness that dependent on what others think of you?

Actually, I'm quite happy with my body. I'm transgendered, but not transsexual. But I do care about other people's perceptions of transsexuals becaus eI have many friends, online and IRL, who aren't as lucky as me. And when I see bigotry, I confront it.
 
2005-06-24 02:20:48 PM  
redstater: but aren't most male-to-female trannies XY by definition?

Have you had your chromosomes checkec? Most people haven't, and there are plenty of examples of people with completely functioning "female" bodies but XY chromosomes, as well as plenty of other variations on chromosomes.

So, I have no idea.

But, also, we have no idea what percentage of "men" have XY either, since it is so very rarely tested.
 
2005-06-24 02:22:35 PM  
Yes I've seen my chromosone test. Everything is in order. Thanks for your concern.
 
2005-06-24 02:22:41 PM  
Clever Neologism:

I don't think that full sexual stimulation is possible once the change is made: you can't just build a clitoris with all those happy nerves, right?


Wow - excellent questions - just time for a quick answer to this one. I'll answer the rest tonight.

Yes, you CAN build a clitoris by saving a tiny fragment of the glans penis and leaving the nerves attached. It becomes the clitoris, since it's directly analogous to the female tissue. I am happy to say that not only does it feel good, but I'm also multi-orgasmic!
 
2005-06-24 02:22:42 PM  
I feel more sympathy towards Eclectic because of relatively rare circumstances of her birth defect, but aren't most male-to-female trannies XY by definition?

Those statistics, I don't know. Could be, but someone closer to the industry will have to answer that.

Now, someone who isn't counted under this accident of birth we're talking about but still decides to undergo surgery, well, I see that ranking along with breast augmentation, personally. They're living the way that they choose, not necessarily the way that they feel the most natural, and it's still not up to me to tell them otherwise.

Now while I normally don't have much respect for people who go in for breast enlargement surgery, I do still have respect for people voluntarily altering the gender. But only because that's what I'm attracted to, I'll admit.

That's a little selfish, I know, but dammit it's who I am!
 
2005-06-24 02:23:59 PM  
It becomes the clitoris, since it's directly analogous to the female tissue. I am happy to say that not only does it feel good, but I'm also multi-orgasmic!

Lucky biatch... lmao!
 
2005-06-24 02:25:23 PM  
lol

ok. I still don't think it is medically ethical.
 
2005-06-24 02:26:53 PM  
Then why can this unhappiness not be rectified through therapy and introspection?

For the same reason lots of psychological states, good, bad, or indifferent -- homosexuality, schizophrenia, intelligence, for example, can't be changed by therapy and introspection alone. Therapy and introspection are rather weak tools.

It's certainly possible that there's a chemical means to address this issue (apart from the chemical means already in use to transition, but that offends your sensibilities, so it doesn't count), but if there is, science hasn't found it yet.
 
2005-06-24 02:27:59 PM  
Actually, I'm quite happy with my body. I'm transgendered, but not transsexual. But I do care about other people's perceptions of transsexuals becaus eI have many friends, online and IRL, who aren't as lucky as me. And when I see bigotry, I confront it.

That is a better answer to the question than most people would give, and the only one I would accept as having a supportable foundation. I still feel that 98% of what is written above is not bigotry, but caustic humor though. And even if it is bigotry, is confrontation really the most effective way to eliminate it? Historically speaking, confrontation has a pretty poor track record.
 
2005-06-24 02:30:10 PM  
Historically speaking, confrontation has a pretty poor track record.


But, capitulation has a worse one. And there's a fine line between humor and vitriol, and, to my perception, a lot of what went before crossed it.
 
2005-06-24 02:30:12 PM  
crazy_gaijin

Clever Neologism: horrors of naive acceptance of Cartesian dualism

What makes you so certain that anyone who accepts Cartesian dualism is being naive? Narrow-minded much?


I made a statement based upon common uncritical societal acceptance of Cartesian dualism, and the probability that people have done an in-depth philosophical examination of the errors and logical inconsistencies of Cartesian dualism. Most serious philosophers, and myself, discount it as a position that has serious logical problems... most people who study such things in depth from philosophical and scientific viewpoints discount it.

Accusing me of being narrow-minded is pretty funny, if you have read any other comments by me, ever.
 
2005-06-24 02:32:37 PM  
r_k_ologist,

MtF or FtM?
 
2005-06-24 02:36:02 PM  
redstater

lol

ok. I still don't think it is medically ethical.


It is no more and no less medically ethical than any other plastic surgery.
 
2005-06-24 02:39:18 PM  
you mean cosmetic surgery?
 
2005-06-24 02:41:19 PM  
2005-06-24 02:09:10 PM genderwar

Would you keep the breasts and vagina and just live as a woman? Even if going back to a man was available?

Why on God's green earth would I willingly give up a magically endowed all-access-pass to hot lesbian love?
 
2005-06-24 02:41:40 PM  
It is no more and no less medically ethical than any other plastic surgery.

I don't entirely buy that. No one can really say that they're a big breasted woman born in a small breasted woman's body, can they?
 
2005-06-24 02:46:36 PM  
<i>Eclectic
I am happy to say that not only does it feel good, but I'm also multi-orgasmic!</i>

Now if only there were a way to achieve that without surgery. I'm male any way you want to discuss it, and I'm not going to go for gender reassignment, but DAMN it'd be fun to be a multi orgasmic male.

Of course this brings up questions about where in the body such capacity resides. Is it necessary to have certain female components to the brain to achieve it? If so, what does that mean for women who aren't multi orgasmic??? Can it be achieved with training / practice?
 
2005-06-24 02:47:34 PM  
Eclectic

Yes, you CAN build a clitoris by saving a tiny fragment of the glans penis and leaving the nerves attached. It becomes the clitoris, since it's directly analogous to the female tissue.


Really? That's pretty neat! I knew that developmentally they were the same parts... For the males out there, can you feel that little line between your scrotum & anus? That would be where your vagina was before it closed up in the womb. I wouldn't have thought that would work so well due to different nerve densities, but then again I haven't read any studies on the neurological differences, so... wow.


I am happy to say that not only does it feel good, but I'm also multi-orgasmic!


[image from temp.corvetteforum.net too old to be available]

I may have to rethink this whole penis thing ;-)!
 
2005-06-24 02:47:43 PM  
Cosmetic surgeons aren't exactly known as the stalwarts of ethics. But their procedures are superficial, and for the most part reversible to a certain extent except in the most extreme cases. Removing the male sex organ and constructing a faux-vagina out of some scrotal tissue is neither superficial nor reversible.

Note: plastic surgeons also repair victims of major trauma, which I consider I highly worthy cause. Too bad insurance doesn't pay them anything for it.
 
2005-06-24 02:48:19 PM  
doublem

I don't usually get into this on Fark threads, but since it seems to be at least a little germane to the conversation at hand, I'm a MtF crossdresser? transvestite? Pick your term. I am biologically male and quite happy with my body ( a little middle aged spread and receding hairline aside) who enjoys, from time to time, dressing as a woman. I'm also a husband of 12 years years and father of two.
 
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