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(Boston Herald)   Man arrested trying to bring a copy of the Declaration of Independence onto an airplane. Nicolas Cage unavailable for comment   (news.bostonherald.com) divider line 191
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26925 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Jun 2005 at 10:40 PM (9 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2005-06-11 11:20:03 PM
ZAZ
They put Ted Kennedy on the no-fly list. But he used his political influence to get off.

It takes political influence to get off. No wonder I have little luck with the ladies.
 
2005-06-11 11:20:27 PM
try to board a flight carrying nothing but a Bible and a copy of the Declaration of Independence

I don't get it, was he naked?
 
2005-06-11 11:21:05 PM
Libertarians want government instrustions into our lives as little as possible. This means no big government as in big government agencies that control many aspects of our lives in conflict with the Constitution and Amendments. The makeup of most libertarian groups I've been involved with have been fiscally conservative and socially liberal. The ideal of someone else's right to do whatever they want so long as it doesn't constrict someone else's rights. http://www.lp.org/issues/issues.shtml for more on the stances on current issues
 
2005-06-11 11:21:44 PM
moltov, MrNeutron: Yeah, the Koran-in-commode thing was just the tip of the iceberg. Have either of you heard of this? Sorry for the off-topic post, but Fark rejected the link and I just need someone to commiserate with in these times we live in. Mods, if you must...
 
2005-06-11 11:22:21 PM
Minus1Kelvin

Alls I know is that the guy at the edge of the Fark personals is scaring the hell outta me.

/kinda has the "I'll rape the hell outta any man within a 10 ft radius" feel to him.
//sorry to the guy in the pic, but you do look scary.


I actually like the pic in the sidebar. Looks very aggressive, which I like. However, upon opening his extended profile... the sidebar pic is quite deceiving. >:\
 
2005-06-11 11:24:41 PM
Libertarians are against govt intrusion, and believe only basic services should be provided by gov't (fire, police with limited powers, limited public works). Sounds good.

Now, they have moved from centrist to heavy antigovernment, with some very extreme views. That's where they lose most of the nation, in my opinion.
 
2005-06-11 11:25:18 PM
Lews_Therin,
AtlMotherFarker


Many thanks!
 
2005-06-11 11:26:47 PM
/kinda has the "I'll rape the hell outta any man within a 10 ft radius" feel to him.
//sorry to the guy in the pic, but you do look scary.


...BearToy?
 
2005-06-11 11:29:15 PM
Hey, another New Hampshire article.

/Representin' tha 603
 
2005-06-11 11:30:00 PM
axidCan anyone help a fellow farker out? I know very little about politics... where do libertarians stand? Here's why: I took one of those mapping questionnaires where it maps out where you personally stand on political issues and came out as libertarian

Well, I can tell you right now that there is one particular mapping quiz that is set up in such a way that any sane answers to the questions automatically makes you a Libertarian. Not surprisingly, it is a quiz put out by a Libertarian organization.

As for the party position, you have the basic idea. Libertarians believe in VERY limited government. They argue against all taxes, and believe that tarrifs should be enough to support the only things the government should be doind, like maintaining a military.
 
2005-06-11 11:33:39 PM
Misleading BS headline. The declaration of independence he was carrying was completely incidental to the story. The thing is, if submitter had told the REAL story (Man arrested for refusing to allow himself to be security screened, and refusing to leave security screening area), nobody would have clicked on it.

How the fark are the security people supposed to know he doesn't have a knife, gun or bomb on his person if they don't screen him?

Submitter is an ass, but not as much of an ass as this so-called "man".
 
2005-06-11 11:34:40 PM


"I'm going to steal the Declaration of Independence... and then try to board a plane with out a ticket. Ha HA!"
 
2005-06-11 11:35:25 PM
N. S. Radieaux:

moltov, MrNeutron: Yeah, the Koran-in-commode thing was just the tip of the iceberg. Have either of you heard of this? Sorry for the off-topic post, but Fark rejected the link and I just need someone to commiserate with in these times we live in. Mods, if you must...

That HAS to be a joke... "Create a papier-mache pig out of the Koran"?! Check out the main page (their comments on "Lodi teen shares thoughts on arrests of 5 local men"), they're completely farking racist.
 
2005-06-11 11:37:32 PM
Polyhazard:

Well, I can tell you right now that there is one particular mapping quiz that is set up in such a way that any sane answers to the questions automatically makes you a Libertarian. Not surprisingly, it is a quiz put out by a Libertarian organization.

Sounds like a Scientologist "personality test" >:D

"Uh-huh, you've got a bad case of Body Thetans all right."
"I only wrote my name."
 
2005-06-11 11:38:12 PM
This guy did not fight, he was not being an asshole, he was just making a point. He was arrested for criminal trespass, non-violently. Libertarians HATE those violent assholes, they are all about civil disobedience.

freetalklive.com
check 'em out..they will learn ya what libertarianism is.
 
2005-06-11 11:40:52 PM
Polyhazard

You're right, any sane answers do make you a libertarian ;-) Politic jokes aside, you're right, that quiz is on the lp.org website, so it may be assumed as biased. But there is another way to figure out what you are in terms of the political spectrum, in addition to being a more educated voter, which is to read all the national party platforms.

Democrats
Green Party
Libertarians
Republicans
 
2005-06-11 11:42:12 PM
If you're going to do it, do it right:

http://www.securityedition.com/
 
2005-06-11 11:46:15 PM
AtlMotherFarker

I've always been drawn to certain aspects of the Libertarian party, but there are other things I don't know about. For instance, what is the Libertarian position on environmental policy?
 
2005-06-11 11:51:37 PM
My car died last year and I ended up buying my little sister's car from her just to get by. Of course she lives in another city, and I had to fly to her to buy it and drive it back.

Without thinking, I had a copy of the 9/11 Report in my backpack (I was reading it at the time), a copy of the Cato Institute's pint-sized publication of the US Constitution in my pocket (which I carry everywhere I go nowadays), and I had absentmindedly booked a one-way flight .... for Sept. 11th, 2004.

Yeah ... big, bright freakin' red lights all over the place. I got put in the bomb sniffer, frisked, had my pockets searched, got the chemical wand, went throught he metal detector, got a second metal detector, a second pocket and shoe search, and my backpack's inner lining was cut open and searched. ("What's THIS?" "Um, a toothbrush ...?")

I totally sympathize with this man and applaud his efforts at airport security. Sure, he may have been a prick to those thugs at the gate, but I'm sure it was completely warranted.

As a libertarian (little L), I would have no problem if the security agents were employed by the airlines or even by the airport. The fact they work under direct mandate of the Department of Homeland Security offends me and makes me want to drive everywhere I travel.

Big Brother IS watching. Yeah, I see you guys. Leave us alone!

// hauled away to Guantanamo
 
2005-06-11 11:52:51 PM
or, I could just read the website that you posted. D'oh!
 
2005-06-11 11:55:41 PM
No, he was being an asshole by making his point as he did. If you think he's honorable, fine... that's your call.

I believe he was being an asshole, and people like him piss me off because they have hijacked the Libertarian party.

Who supports this man? The same people who supported him before. What point did he make? Not much of one, not a point that hasn't already been made on more notable occassions. Who did he convince? Only a few people, if any. He probably pissed off more people than he convinced, which is not a good way to build support.

So what was gained by this, I am missing the rationale.
 
2005-06-11 11:55:58 PM
darling
Nice link, I like it.


Polyhazard
That's where I deviate from the party somewhat so my views are skewed. Having degrees in nuclear engineering it makes it hard to agree with people who have no idea about what they're talking about when making policy concerning nuclear technology. It's my understanding that the party supports conservation of wildlife, endangered species, natural habitats, etc etc. In the last election they made some statements about changing from an fossil fuel based economy to something better like hydrogen, fuel cells, or other alternative sources. But they demonize the entire nuclear industry without understanding it, so I kinda shake my head and ask then what they will say when they need CT scans, chemotherapy, prolonged space travel, etc, since that's all nuclear based. For this part of the platform I'd say they let in a few too many of the nutsy conservationists and not enough scientists and engineers.
 
2005-06-12 12:02:04 AM
Thank you, Libertarians, for fighting for our rights, so that someday I and John Q. Terrorist have the right to enter an airplane without being searched.
 
2005-06-12 12:04:08 AM
synthlord, I got searched when I went through the ATL airport in the same fashion. Funny thing is, I was on the way to DHS training when I went. I could have done without my bag being slashed, though.

Ever consider the reason you feel this way about the government (you are being watched ooh so closely), is because you WANT to feel this way about the government? You know, perception is reality kinda thing?

I mean, I've worked for the evil government. Ya know, it's made of people... not a helluva lot of mystery to it. Just like a big office, lots of politics and stupidity, but it manages to get along despite itself.

The fact is, though, reality is not as interesting as conspiracies, and having a purpose to 'fight the man' is one of the oldest games around.
 
2005-06-12 12:04:52 AM
Polyhazard,

Essentially the Libertarian environmental policy is based on property rights. If you want to spill chemical waste on YOUR property, go right ahead. If doing so causes your neighbors material harm (sickness, damage, etc.) - or if you're dumping it on their land - you are violating their property rights, and you're going to jail.

As far as environmental protection - i.e. land that does not get developed, and left in its "natural" state - the same principles apply. If you want to save the three-eyed wooly gecko, buy up his habitat and put up a fence. Libertarians believe that the government is not allowed to own property, nor is the government allowed to tell you what to do with your property, or take it from you using "imminent domain" laws. They can't morrally keep you from building a house on your property, even if it means the displacement of animal habitats. If the animals are that important, Angelina Jolie or whoever this week's I'm-promoting-my-movie-and-my-passionate-cause celebrity can take care of them.

This idea is not in contradiction with the necessity for military bases, police stations, court houses, and state houses (White House, Capitol, etc.). These are "public" properties, owned in trust by all citizens, and disposed of by the citizenry via their elected officials.
 
2005-06-12 12:05:49 AM
ZAZ It is illegal to offer low-cost letter delivery in competition with the post office. Otherwise somebody would be undercutting the post office in urban areas and the post office would have to raise rates to serve rural areas.

On the street outside my office there is a FedEx drop box side by side with a USPS drop box. FedEx's lowest rate is still higher than regular mail of course. But if you want a private mail carrier, there it is.

But I see the libertarian point of view on the issue. Frankly I would be ok with privatizing the USPS, or removing the anti-competitive regulations. I'd like to see paper mail go the way of the horse and buggy anyways.
 
2005-06-12 12:06:13 AM
Good summary, Synth.
 
2005-06-12 12:06:25 AM
so that someday I and John Q. Terrorist have the right to enter an airplane without being searched.

OOOH, TAHT SHOWW3D EM!!11!1ONE!1
 
2005-06-12 12:07:40 AM
Was there a point in there somewhere, Crown?

You look like a fool.
 
2005-06-12 12:10:17 AM
Headline > Article > Protagonist; ZAZ wins.

Polyhazard

Libertarian ideals (the word, not the political party) case are generally pretty good ones, but in practice most Libertarians (the party) are actually closer to anarchists. The party platform basically involves stripping government down to an army and police force.

If you really want to support libertarian ideals, you should become a member of the American Civil Liberties Union, which does a lot more to defend your freedom than the Libertarian party does. Basically we're talking about the difference between Greenpeace or the Sierra club versus PeTA here.

Although the whole Your Mommy Kills Animals! stunt was pretty awesome, if you ask me.

/Not a vegetarian
//Not even close
 
2005-06-12 12:10:38 AM
aerojockey

The point he was making was that the government mandates all checking of baggage and persons without leaving it up to the industry. Should the airline industry be in charge of it and choose not to check anyone, people won't fly for fear of terrorism/hijackings and thus the free market will correct itself accordingly. However, if the industry chooses to create a private screening service that a person flying on their planes would have to pass through in a terms of agreement when purchasing a ticket, then the industry will be safer and free of government bureaucracy and ineptitude. That was the point, not that there shouldn't be any screening whatsoever, but that it should be left to the industry.
 
2005-06-12 12:14:05 AM
greenbeans_and_physics,

Rights are rights, and I know the people working for the government are just doing their job. I have no problem with private seurity, but when a government - especially at a Federal cabinet level - can thwart our rights and say it's for our safety is just wrong.

Where's the morality in treating everyone who buys a plane ticket like a suspect? What happened to innocent until proven guilty? I have never once feared for my safety, even after 9/11; what I do fear is the next time I'm pulled over by the cops, or not knowing about some new item I can't carry on a plane, and getting it (seemingly) arbitrarily confiscated and me being detained for it.

As far as my attitude is concerned, I kind of agree with you, but it's probably more of a chicken-and-egg thing. The more intrusive the government becomes, the more sensitive I become to it. But, the burden of proof (me being a troublemaker) is on them, and they're going to have to be the ones to shove the chicken back in the egg first. Until then, I'll be watching like a hawk.
 
2005-06-12 12:14:29 AM
603 strikes again!
 
2005-06-12 12:14:50 AM
SynthLord Essentially the Libertarian environmental policy is based on property rights. If you want to spill chemical waste on YOUR property, go right ahead. If doing so causes your neighbors material harm (sickness, damage, etc.) - or if you're dumping it on their land - you are violating their property rights, and you're going to jail.

Yeah and that's also the example that turns me off from libertarianism. Once the toxic crap hits the ground everyone will be dealing with it indirectly. It will get into the ground water, seep into streams, get wafted away by wind, etc. The whole point of ecology is that the whole thing is an interconnected network.

For example the Pacific salmon fishermen that fight logging because without the forests, the streams get silted up and the salmon can't spawn. How does the libertarian concept of 'everything is based on property' deal with the fact that no one owns the streams, the Pacific, or the salmon? Or are fishermen, being without property, also without rights? Landed gentry, anyone?
 
2005-06-12 12:15:51 AM
those crazy americans, why can't they get it through their heads that they are no longer free?

just commute, work, commute, come home, watch nascar drink beer, pay your taxes, eat, sleep, repeat till death.

perfect american way of life.
 
2005-06-12 12:17:41 AM
greenbean: The major differnce between an office and a government office is that I can refuse to buy products and services from the former but have services (super crappy ones at that) shoved down my throat from the latter... and I'm forced at virtual gunpoint to pay for it. MAJOR differnce.
 
2005-06-12 12:19:30 AM
I agree with checks on goverment, for sure.

I'm afraid terrorists have done a good job at being more intrusive than the government, and most people fear terrorists more than the government - THAT is the difference between the two camps. Some fear the gov't more than terrorists, some the terrorists more than the government's intrusion.

I believe there are evil people in the world, and that the gov't can be kept in check better than the terrorists, who can come in any form. That's why the gov't gets the nod to assume guilty until proven innocent, because there is true evil and many people desire protection from it.
 
2005-06-12 12:19:59 AM
SideshowBob

That's not quite the case for the toxic waste issue. If by dumping toxic waste on your land, you pollute someone else's land, then you should be liable in full for the damages and cleanup. Also the Libertarian view doesn't allow firms to abandon waste dumps so the EPA can use taxpayer's dollars to clean them up as "Superfund" sites, but rather requires them to clean up their own mess.
 
2005-06-12 12:20:17 AM
Thanks Donald Hogan Mark II, first thing I thought of.

/Don't Ever Antagonize The Horn
 
2005-06-12 12:22:33 AM
Nobody's answered the question of why this was a big enough deal to get arrested? Was the guy naked? That's the only reason I can see being arrested in this situation.
 
2005-06-12 12:23:22 AM
Hey, your officials are returned to office over 90% of the time! You wanna blame someone, blame the voters! I blame Congress, the President, etc. But I still work with these guys, and I feel there are still good people here in the government. I may retract or alter what I said earlier if someone shows me another way of thinking, but for now I still believe as I do.

TheRealShadowspawn "those crazy americans"

Is your profile lying, or aren't you one of "those"?
 
2005-06-12 12:23:49 AM
This thread is useless without greased naked women fondling fruit.
 
2005-06-12 12:26:55 AM
SilentStrider

Seriously, I'd be curious to see what they actually charge him with. I'd bet public distubrance at the least, but I'm sure there are some various clauses of the Patriot Act and other DHS measures could mean possible felony charges if they push for it.
 
2005-06-12 12:28:41 AM
greenbeans_and_physics

Meh, reflecting idiocy with idiocy. I didn't think I would need to translate such a thought-out post...
 
2005-06-12 12:29:08 AM
AtlMotherFarker

But what about enforcement? Do we trust everyone with their hazmats?

People in this country would be appalled, and frightened, at what goes on with hazardous chemicals (look no further than your local hospital) and their disposal... DESPITE enforcement by the DOT, EPA, and state environmental divisions.

If you're from Atlanta, look at Emory's labs... they have a top-notch chemical safety officer who cares about what he does and his community, and they stay in good shape and environmentally friendly.

Now look at some of the other corrupt and non-caring people/organizations that exist around Atlanta. Libertarians drop the ball on that one, in my opinion and (particularly) experience.
 
2005-06-12 12:29:36 AM
AtlMotherFarker If by dumping toxic waste on your land, you pollute someone else's land, then you should be liable in full for the damages and cleanup

Give me an example where dumping toxic waste doesn't get into the ground water, seep into a stream, get wafted onto the wind causing problems for downwind people, or somehow pollute the environment in some way? The problem is that the environment doesn't respect property boundaries.

Here's another example: a meat processing plant piles up rotting corpses on their property. It attracts wildlife and becomes a source of disease as insects and other critters carry it away with them. How do you prove that they are the source of the problem? The answer is you can't, you need regulations telling them they can't do that on their property.

Seriously I'd like the libertarians to explain to me how, if they got their way, we wouldn't have our own version of Somalia.
 
2005-06-12 12:29:58 AM
No Such Agency: That HAS to be a joke...

No such luck. The site is completely legit (I of course use that term loosely), and all of their exploits are serious -- up to and including the proposal that Michael Moore be charged with treason. Here's a Wikipedia entry on them.
 
2005-06-12 12:30:10 AM
Oh fine, idiocy always reigns supreme!
 
2005-06-12 12:30:21 AM
Mordant
What's wrong with the mail anyway ? It's one of the few things the government seems to do very well.

Really? I avoid using USPS now. Every time I do, my mail is lost, or takes a month to arrive. An example: my mom sent a check to my brother 224 miles away. It didn't get there for a solid two, three weeks.

As for the libertarian debate.. this guy makes the rest of us look like nutters. I agree with a large portion of the platform, but people like this are just nuts. Protests are good and all, but this guy doesn't really know how to go about it. In this day and age, you need to work inside the system in order to get anything changed, unfortunately.

/refuses to fly
//trains still aren't searched, afaik
 
2005-06-12 12:33:03 AM
If you don't want to go through screening procedures, feel free to buy your own plane.
 
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