in other news, fark greenlights another drudge-link.

Yep, but where is the mention that the gap between the middle class ($50k - $80k) and the uber-rich got wider? There are less people (% wise) in the $120k-$1M range than there ever were. They either moved up or down, and the middle class grew faster than the uber-rich class. So, it looks like a lot of people got the shaft while a select few went up to the ranks of the stinking rich.

The middle class in the country is getting shafted. If you're making $80,000 as a household, you're paying more $$ in taxes than most who make +$2M...

ejenkins1979:

If you're making $80,000 as a household, you're paying more $$ in taxes than most who make +$2M...

whaddaya know? Another farker spouting off bullshiat as fact.

ejenkins1979:

The middle class in the country is getting shafted. If you're making $80,000 as a household, you're paying more $$ in taxes than most who make +$2M...

Not that it is right either way, but I'll assume that you are referring to percentage-wise.

doccm9:

Not that it is right either way, but I'll assume that you are referring to percentage-wise.

I am refering to percentage wise in this case, but I know of at least one person with a seven digit income who paid fewer dollars in taxes than I did... and I'm only in the 5-digit range.

Arnold T Pants: whaddaya know? Another farker spouting off bullshiat as fact.

Really? I worked for an accounting firm in Austin around tax time. Did you?

dameron: Millionaires because their houses are worth more that $1 million?

No, I'm talking about income, not assets.

ejenkins1979:

I am refering to percentage wise in this case, but I know of at least one person with a seven digit income who paid fewer dollars in taxes than I did... and I'm only in the 5-digit range.

One person = most!!! It has to be true if you have anecdotal evidence from one person while you worded in an accounting firm at tax time!!! Are you joking?

ejenkins1979,

So, it looks like a lot of people got the shaft while a select few went up to the ranks of the stinking rich.

Damn, it took only two posts before the rich haters came out...

Hey, if a few rise above the middle class due to their own hard work, risk taking, and determination, that doesn't mean everyone else got the 'shaft' ya frickin commie. It means that those few took advantage of what we in the US call 'The American Dream' (I know, they don't teach that anymore) to elevate themselves for their families and for their fellow man while everyone else was...well, adopting your mindset and crying about getting shafted.

Statistically, most millionaires are C-students who never got advanced degrees (see Millionaire Next Door and MIllionaire Mindset at Amazon). You don't need special qualifications or luck. You need determination, willpower, and positive thinking.

You can join the club. It's easy. You just gotta have faith in yourself and work your ass off. Or you can choose to do what you're doing now. Your call.

/gimme 2 more years, then we'll be at 600,001

You can't buy smart, but you can rent it by hiring scientists to do your bidding.
You can also rent serial killers, they just have a nicer name for themselves as "hitmen".

dameron,

I'd rather be a genius than a millionaire. You can't buy smart.

Yeah, actually you can. How many geniuses has Bill Gates 'rented' in his time? You can always hire someone to do something you don't know how to do or can't spend the time to learn how to do well. That's like saying the CEO of Sony has to be able to design such a thing as the PSP or that when Jack Welch was at GE he had to be able to engineer better microwave ovens and washing machines. Genius is always for hire. You can't say the same for someone imbued with entrepreneurship and common sense.

I wonder how many serial killers are C-students who never got advanced degrees. Probably most of them.

I wonder how many professional athletes were C students who never got advanced degrees

And movie stars?

You've really set my mind in motion...

Except for the whole serial killer thing (obviously a joke), you highlighted two other career tracks, namely movie stars and pro athletes, who for the most part have to demonstrate dogged determination to get where they need to be to be at the top of their fields as well. Granted the rules are much different than in the business world for a starlet or a college wide reciever, but the rules are plain nonetheless (including sleeping your way to the top for the movie starlet) and require the same determination (in entirely different arenas with widely differing talents) to succeed.

Entrepreneurship is in a way it's own cutthroat game with very high stakes. The rules are laid out for you in advance. You bust your ass to succeed. And when you do, you end up giving to your community with your success (cheaper widgets, better steaks, etc...)

But now, dinner.........

Ooooh, more millionaires!

The Democrats salivate at the thought of increased taxes.....

Oh, yeah; they're not in power any more. That is because punishing success to "level the playing field" is wrong. The majority of the public knows it, and votes accordingly.

600,000 new millionaires. Meanwhile, a teacher I know makes $42,000/yr after thirteen years of teaching high school with a Masters under her belt. Not envious or anything, though....

dameron,

And yet when you fall asleep at night you turn in the bed thinking fondly of your favorite ice cream flavor instead of really understanding much. I'm talking about a characteristic, genius, not the capacity to hire other people to think for you.

If that's the case then let's revisit your original quote... I'd rather be a genius than a millionaire. You can't buy smart....well I'd say even though you can't buy smart, you don't necessarily need smart. And I say that as an occassional prize winner at southeastern chess tournaments and a 1400 SAT who never went to college, became a nuclear reactor operator in the US Navy where they ram 6 years of school down your throat minus the humanities stuff in just under 2 years. Dropout rates are around 50% and a GPA below 3.0 gets you kicked out on the spot. I am a self taught marketing professional that can hang (admittedly minus statistics) with most MBA's (according to my friend who teaches marketing at U. of Florida). All that, and I maintain you don't need smart. I'd rather be wise than smart. Wise gets you places you want to go. For all of Bill Gates brilliance, he'd be nothing without his keen sense of business and his drive to be at the top.

You can no more purchase genius than (Michael Jackson's attempt aside) change your ethnicity or hire someone to be "tall" for you.

Agreed, but that's not important.

I was just pointing out your cute use of taking a statistic that's an average of an average ("most" X are C students) as some kind of important point. It's a little mushy for me.

OK, I can understand how you'd think that. Not my numbers though. There are definitive studies down to the Nth degree done by Thomas Stanley and William Danko in the 'Millionaire Mind'. They lay out a statistical case for what I've summed up...actually it's where I as have many others have learned this. Amazing book. Turns lots of stereotypes on their ass. Wander through Barnes and Noble, get some Starbucks, and leaf through it someday if you're curious.

You forgot taxes. One of the most important ways business owners give back to their community is through taxes. It's the American way.

Hahahahahaaa! You knew that'd hurt didn't you? Yeah, I'd agree, but it's not the most important way by far. That'd be the products and services they sell to better society or the jobs they create. I'd lean towards jobs.

Phil Herup:

Oh, yeah; they're not in power any more. That is because punishing success to "level the playing field" is wrong. The majority of the public knows it, and votes accordingly.

Uh, I don't think Democrats like to tax the rich to "level the playing field", I think they do it because the rich can afford to pay more.

If I made $20,000 last year, I'm going to miss that $2,000 that goes to taxes a LOT more than someone who made $2,000,000 is going to miss that $200,000.

It's not necessarily what I believe in, I just think you are way off in your assessment of the reasoning behind why Democrats like to levy more taxes against the rich.

Phil Herup:

Ooooh, more millionaires!

The Democrats salivate at the thought of increased taxes.....

MMmmmmmm......taxes!

/Homer

Big whoop, it's called inflation. We have more billionaires now than ever, too.

Show me percents, not figures.

So let me get this straight...

Democrats in power, rich people are taxed more.

Republicans in power, poor people lose their lives more.

Did I miss anything?

I think there just needs to be a running total of X% of the world's wealth in X% of the world's population, maybe 0.1% of the population, which seem to be millionaires.

Let me just say that the fact that 25% of the world's wealth is in the hands of 0.1% of the world's individuals is kind of disturbing. For one thing, I'm sure that in many places this has nothing to do with how much people work for it. Maybe in the US anyone with enough determination can become rich, but what about China? People in Africa? Much of Latin America?

Many people in these parts of the world don't have the political freedom, and in many of these places millionaires are built of the blood and sweat of others, working in practically slave-like conditions. But, whatever, as long as that 0.1% is happy.

/Will likely be in that 0.1% in 20 years, just a bit young now, but starting an MD/PhD in the fall, when I'll probably be buying my first house.
//Will definately try to improve the lives of people all over the world, not just myself.

Good for you, madmaxxam.

Thwapwhacket:

So let me get this straight...

Democrats in power, rich people are taxed more.

Republicans in power, poor people lose their lives more.

Did I miss anything?

yes, you missed basic social science, basic economics, and basic common sense, dumass

madmaxxam:

Many people in these parts of the world don't have the political freedom, and in many of these places millionaires are built of the blood and sweat of others, working in practically slave-like conditions. But, whatever, as long as that 0.1% is happy.

So, what is your point? If you include other nations then sure, you still have some places like Saudi Arabia where one family owns the entire nation. Other places like India, have a very anemic cpatilism, lots of socialism, but they still have a caste system, so the poor people remain utterly destitute.
Our system is geared not towards being rich, although some achieve that, it is geared towards being middle class. SO if you start off as a dirt poor immigrant, then through hard work, you can almost always achieve middle class status. If you dont fark yourself up with debt, drugs, crime ect.
It's not a perfect system, but all of the other systems I have seen seem less perfect. Includeing all the Euro-socialist systems with their stagnant growth rates and high unemployment.

I was a millonaire before it was cool...

So...if I include social science, economics, and common sense, would that change those statements?

600,000 new millionaires. Meanwhile, a teacher I know makes $42,000/yr after thirteen years of teaching high school with a Masters under her belt.

13 years of properly investing 10% of that 42k in some kind of mutual fund making around 10 to 12% return will make your teacher friend a millionaire by the time he/she retires. What's your point?

Uh, I don't think Democrats like to tax the rich to "level the playing field", I think they do it because the rich can afford to pay more.

That still doesn't make it right. If any one person pays a greater percentage of income than another person, the system is immoral.

If I made $20,000 last year, I'm going to miss that $2,000 that goes to taxes a LOT more than someone who made $2,000,000 is going to miss that $200,000.

Ten percent is what you should tithe, not what you pay in taxes. I take home, on average, about 55% of my gross income. Social security and federal income tax eat about a third of what I make. Throw in the matching social security tax my employer pays on my wages, money I would be able to pocket if it didn't go to the old folks' welfare plan, and federal taxes alone eat two out of every five dollars I make. That is absurd.

jpchip

As a percentage of the US population millionaires have roughly doubled in the last 25 years. Today over 1 percent of Americans qualify as millionaires based on income and/or wealth. Even though Forbes lists only something like 286 billionaires, figured there's closer to 400 than 300 actually around. And when the first Forbes 400 came out, there were I think 14 billionaires on the whole list.

Of course someone who put away $100,000 in 1986 could today easily be worth a million thanks to a few good stock picks. So just because there's lots of millionaires doesn't mean it's possible to generalize about how they got that way. Even investing $500,000 for 20 years at 4% will get you there. And 4% per annum is a really dinky return.

I started this whole internet thing about six or seven years ago, taking part in it thinking that it held the promise that some said it did; the open and free exchange of ideas which would lead to better understanding of others and a better society. It seems to have only made things worse, made people more entrenched and insanely partisan, no hoop being too small for some to squeeze through to keep their skewed view of the world intact. Nothing is ever resolved, only those who apparently have made some ideology a part of their being getting more hardened. I am afraid that the only thing that will really make a change for the better in the long run in this country will be failure, though I doubt I will live long enough to see the upturn.

TheGoblinKing
"Statistically, most millionaires are C-students who never got advanced degrees (see Millionaire Next Door and MIllionaire Mindset at Amazon). You don't need special qualifications or luck. You need determination, willpower, and positive thinking."


Ya cuz we know theres people going around digging up the report cards of millionaires from high school and college...
It's funny how you talk about hard work and determination fulfilling the American Dream as your key to success. Then you talk about how most of the successful people are C-average slackers throughout school. Last time I checked, the A students at my school (NorthwesternU) worked more, studied harder, and were generally more intelligent than... the C students. I know.... it's amazing isn't it.



Please don't cite Bill Gates as your rebuttal..

madmaxxam

Those numbers about who owns what percentage of wealth are, well, worthless. For one they don't include very real but unused wealth, totally make a mess of the wealth that is stocks and bonds and other investments, and also don't look at matters like land ownership. It's why the numbers keep changing depending on who authors them.

Quick1

Sadly those extra tax dollars aren't held to the same accounting standards when Congress gets them as they are if they go into an investment or a business. Congress doesn't use the very same accounting standards it mandates others use. Hell you can't even find out how much money the government collected two months ago. But walk into the HQ of Coke, McDonalds, Target or whoever and they can tell you instantly how much money they took in between Monday and Wednesday of last week. As it is no one has any idea how well the government uses money or where it actually goes. And no one in Congress much cares for an independent audit of the enitre budget or to use GAAP, generally accepted accounting principles.

Thwapwhacket:

So...if I include social science, economics, and common sense, would that change those statements?

your statements are wrong no matter what. It amuses me to see the hate filled lefties on fark threads. All my life I had proffessors and my two Uncles who were democratic politicians telling me haw the left was the home of compassion, and tolerence, and the evil right wing were just a bunch of racists who were in bed with big business.
Then I grew up and saw the reality. Democrats make just as many deals with big business, are ALWAYS for higher taxes (on everyone), are always in favor of expanding government and chokeing out the small businessman. They are also full of rage, hatred, and emotionalism. Now, the Republican party is certainly not perfect, but it is the only home, right now, of any sort of reform. Much needed Tort reform, school choice, and social security reform. all things the Democrats offer no soultions on, just obstruction.

I have to agree with DBMoose. What you seem to be forgetting is that there are 600,000 NEW millionaires. Did 200,000 millionaires die last year and leave it all to their 3 kids?

Most of these 600,000 people have a NET WORTH of over 1 million. If you have a $250,000 house, which is fairly common nowadays, that is one quarter of that. One million isn't filthy rich, most people just over that line have no choice but to keep working. So just because they worked hard, and saved their money instead of hitting the bar every night, and kept their home in good condition by maintaining it-meaning a higher book value of their property, this means that a larger portion of thier paycheck should no longer belong to them?

Wake up people. They tried this. It doesn't work. You have to give people a chance to become rich, or nobody will try harder. It isn't coincidence that most scientific advancements happen in capitalist countries. In fact, the only advancements that happen elsewhere is when non-capitalist countries pour obscene amounts of their GDP into research, effectively creating a wealthy class, while denying it exists.

My net worth, combined with my wife, is probably around 50K if you ignore red of mounting college debt. We don't care, because by the time we retire, we expect to be fairly wealthy so we can live comfortably and do all the things we can't afford to do now. Anybody who thinks there is something wrong with this is welcome to stay dirt poor. No skin off my back if you don't want to better yourself.

davidshi123

And if you hop the El and a bus and go to the U of Chicago you've got kids that on paper can smoke the ones at Northwestern. But in truth you go to Champaign and you can find just as many smart people as at either Northwestern or the U of Chicago. And not all the really smart people have the best grades, some just don't care that much about grades. And not everyone works either, some just get good grades. Lastly now as always some of the smartest just skip college. Or even get thrown out, name Larry Ellison ring any bells? Got booted from the U of Chicago where he had an academic scholarship. And he's smarter than Gates. But then that's not saying much. So is Steve Jobs. So are a lot of people. And just because you can get into school X doesn't mean anything about how smart someone is.

It's not always about grades. It's about determination and the willingness to work hard. My business has a planned startup date of next April. I expect to work 12-14 hours a day for the first few years. It's the price you have to pay, that too many people aren't willing to pay.

For the record: GPA 3.1-and I still got drunk 3-4 times a week. I miss college...

*Thinks for a few seconds...My parents must be on that list if all of my calculations are correct. That means if I somehow insure that they die before spending their money on retirement I could be on that list quickly. Hooray! Shortcut!

in other news the figment of your imagination that is money, that intangable trading currency founded by your government, made 600,000 people millionare's!....... More people died of starvation, remember, charity telephon's never consider the exchange rate, only the entertainment value

Where did I indicate I was either Left or hateful?

What makes you think reform will be be positive?

Here's something to think about. If you take $1,000 and invest it at an 8% annual return, and every year invest another $1,000 at 8% annual return, in 40 years you'll have $301,505.56. If you were to inveest $5,000 a year, also for 40 years, and at the same rate of return? You'd have just over $1.5 million. That's a total of $200,000 invested, turning into a $1.5 million. Funny thing compounded interest, it turns not very much into a truckload. And if you increase the principle invested each year by say 10%? It grows even faster. Nevermind that if you start this year investing $1000 in ten years you'll be investing $2,593.74 for the year. The power of compound interest in action.

That still doesn't make it right. If any one person pays a greater percentage of income than another person, the system is immoral.

Fine. Conversely, if any one person makes a greater income than another person, the system is immoral. Commie.

Social security is more than just retirement, as we went over at GREAT length last week. You might as well stop paying house insurance, car insurance, health insurance, and life insurance, because all you're doing is paying other people's claims. When your turn comes, there isn't some magical vault of all of your payments; it's other people's payments paying for your bills. That's how society works. Want it different? Go be an anarchist on a commune.

Much needed Tort reform, school choice

School choice? You mean the voucher system? You are NOT getting MY money to send your kids to private school, especially not a parochial school. You want the added benefit of a 'name brand' school, YOU pay for it. I say we focus on making the public schools the place to be, instead of draining all the good out of the system by sending them to supposedly better private institutions that don't necessarily require their instructors to hold any degree higher than a bachelor's.

I will tell you what is absurd...

Your notion that most people can afford to invest their money on their present income. How do you pay the bills? The rich are rich becuase they don't spend their money in nearly the same percentage as the middle class and the poor. They don't need too because everything costs about the same for everyone. The rich pay the same as the poor for anything they want to buy. You might call it immoral that people die everyday in this country because they can't afford to feed themselfs.

Since you love flat taxes let just mandate a flat consumption tax on basic living expenses. But the tax should be based on your INCOME and not the actual cost of the item/s. Let just say 25%. The middle class would LOVE this becuase they spend much more than 25% just on BASIC living. Wait and see how many millionairs complain that they have to spend $250,000 a year just for food and shelter over their head. Now you begin to see how this system is unfair.

Taxes should be and are somewhat based on your ability to pay. It's not fair to tax someone who simply can't afford to pay the tax. I'm sure your the same person who feels a CEO does hunderds of times more work than their low level employees so they should make hundreds of times more....yet pay the same tax rate. Where are your immoral cries now? Most people don't call that fair.

I won't even get into the point of payrole taxes and how they are much higher than capital gains... It may surprise you but most of the rich continue to become richer because of their capital gains... MONEY THEY NEVER WORK FOR. So yes in the begining you need to work very very hard but once you are there you are set. But if Daddy happened to be rich you don't have to worry at all, you might never need to work a day in your life. I don't see you complaining about capital gains being immoral. It's funny how the rich always talk about "working hard" but never talk about how much money they made without lifting a finger after the fact.

jpchip

It is not YOUR money. It is OUR money, specifically MY money that the government takes from me to provide an education for my child. What gives that government the right to say that I cannot use that money to educate the child as I see fit. I am not taking YOUR money, but when you have a child you are welcome to take YOUR money and send them to the school that you think is best for them.

Vouchers did not exist=Rich children in good schools and poor children in crappy public schools.

Vouchers exist=Poor children joining rich children in better private schools while crappy public schools are either improved or shut down.

Yes, lets not allow vouchers. Because we want the poor to have a mediocre education. Good private schools are there only for people rich enough to afford them. Is that what you are saying?

It's not hard to be a millionaire.
Save your money, don't waste it, and buy good real estate.

Ten million in assets is the new million.

It take about as long to go from $10 000 in savings to $100 000 in savings, as it does to go from $100 000 to $1 000 000, if one assumes the same amount of risk. The fact that the Baby Boomer generation is now reaching it's peak earning potential, and that the US dollar is worth much less than in years past, it's not what it used to be to be a millionaire in the US anymore.

Baby Boomers I know always talk about how they strove to make their first million dollars, and now that they got their, it's not worth that much. They have been, and continue to be lesser risk takers than their age peers who are now multi multi millionaires, and settled for no less than high risk/high return investment and business strategies.

Think about the huge number of Baby Boomers who attended the same schools within the NY public school system, grew up in the same neighborhoods, and the huge disparities in wealth they've al accumulated.

Take Queens, the likes of Mario Coumo, Bab Streisand, so many venture capitalists I don't think Farkers would know, scientific researchers, famous musicians, etc, etc, to the great mass of Baby Boomers who moved to friggin Jersey and lived working and middle class lives.

Equal oppurtunities, not equal outcomes.

And the immigrants in Queens today embrace these ideas and strive toward their own ascendancy, while bitter Farkers sit here and biatch about their lot in life.

It's sad to read some comments on Fark.

Quick1:

If I made $20,000 last year, I'm going to miss that $2,000 that goes to taxes a LOT more than someone who made $2,000,000 is going to miss that $200,000.

So. Fair is Fair.


I just think you are way off in your assessment of the reasoning behind why Democrats like to levy more taxes against the rich.

They need it fund their wasteful social programs.

They punish success.

I am rich so I dont care

zxjim: It is not YOUR money. It is OUR money, specifically MY money that the government takes from me to provide an education for my child. What gives that government the right to say that I cannot use that money to educate the child as I see fit. I am not taking YOUR money, but when you have a child you are welcome to take YOUR money and send them to the school that you think is best for them.

Vouchers did not exist=Rich children in good schools and poor children in crappy public schools.

Vouchers exist=Poor children joining rich children in better private schools while crappy public schools are either improved or shut down.

Hahahahaha. OK, let's take this step-by-step. You want your money back so that you can withdraw from the social contract that is our society? Fine, I want my money back from all these crazy wars that I in no war support, I want my money back from your roads that I don't use, I want my money back from your libraries because I've already read everything they have that I want to read, I want my money back from the government agency that's insuring YOUR bank accounts, and I especially want my money back from the salary of the man I didn't vote for.

Not going to happen, is it?

Private schools by and large aren't any better in terms of education than public schools, just as a T-shirt from Abercrombie that costs you $40 isn't any better fabric than my $5 Hanes T-shirt. In fact, the Abercrombie is probably a poly-blend, because they know you'll buy it anyway because of the name and the image associated with it. And that's exactly what you're paying for with a private school, a name and an image. With that comes connections, to be sure, but it's all because of the cyclical nature of the thing. We've all heard about the rampant grade-inflation at major private universities (see Fark thread (yesterday?)), caused by parents expecting good results for their money.

Stop trying to withdraw from the system - make it better. My public school was easily the equal of any of the private schools in my area, and there is no reason why public institutions shouldn't be the premier centers of learning.

Vouchers did not exist = Rich children in private, "name-brand" schools to keep them away from the proletariat children and poor children in public schools.

Vouchers exist = Rich parents paying less to send their children to the "name-brand" schools, a few exceptional students get a price break to the Ritzy schools that their middle-class parents may or may not be able (or willing) to pay for, and public schools suffer even more because the further drain on the overall population of the schools and its average intelligence lead to further reduced test scores and conditions under which teachers would rather not work. Teachers' salaries then go up as an incentive, thus further reducing the amount that schools are able to spend on new textbooks, new computers, classrooms, desks, sports equipment, etc. Arts programs are cut, leading to a higher dropout rate and loss of cultural understanding. More parents don't like the trend, decide to send their kids off to a different school, negative feedback cycle continues.

Sure, let's further widen the gap until the poor rise up to overthrow the government.

Again.

They need it fund their wasteful social programs.

Those social programs help you.

When the lowest common denominator is raised, everyone in society benefits. I'm not going to get into this, because I just spent way too much time on school vouchers. Look into property values, patent grants, development of literature, oh, and the prevention of revolution.

Nice Strawman,

Vouchers ARE NOT AVAILABLE to families over a specific income level. They are there TO HELP THE POOR. They are not a withdrawal. Instead you are told, your input to the system is X dollars, school you have chosen will get that X dollars to educate your child.

I am not saying all private schools are better than public schools (except possibly in Milwaukee) I am saying that I think the parents know what is best for their child far and beyond what the government may think.

Teachers salaries are higher in private schools. Know why? THEY ARE BETTER TEACHERS. In private schools, the teachers tend to not be unionized. That means if they suck, they're fired. Try doing that to an MPS teacher. It's been tried, it can't be done.

If you truly think that pulling money from a sucky school can make it suck even worse, then I pity you. Vouchers put that money where the quality education is, according to the desire of the child's parents.

I don't know about you, but based on the governments track record, I don't trust them to tell me what is best for me or for any children I may have.

Try knowing a few more facts before you post next time, it will make you look less of an idiot.