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(CNN)   Kerry, Bush had similar grades   (cnn.com) divider line 404
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13379 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Jun 2005 at 2:28 AM (9 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2005-06-08 02:54:29 AM
myellott
Ok, what the fark gives!? You say grades aren't an indication of intelligence. They are pretty much the best indication out there.

They are a very, very poor indication of intelligence, and I say this as someone who has taught university-level courses. I remember the singular smartest person I ever taught, someone who probably could have taught that course better than I (I was asked to teach that particular course which was quite far outside my areas of expertise when a colleague quit unexpectedly). He was also the only student I ever failed, and it wasn't for lack of intelligence. It was more because he took far too many high level courses, and worked full time. His work was superb, it was just all two to three weeks late. His only intellectual failing was to overestimate his ability to cope with a massive courseload and work full-time as well.
 
2005-06-08 02:54:59 AM
Why do we elect leaders that make D's in political science? Can someone answer me that? I'm an engineer and make better grades in political science courses. This is just pathetic
 
2005-06-08 02:55:02 AM
RaveX
You are trying to do exactly what you are accusing the "media" of doing. Spinning it one way to favor your point. It is news because they dared not release it during the campaign because it would have had a negative effect on the campaign. If, as you claim, exhonerates his naval career then why not release it during the campaign? Because they knew the grades would affect the polls.
 
2005-06-08 02:57:51 AM
 
2005-06-08 02:57:57 AM
Hey, my grades sucked at school, mainly because I didnt try all that hard. I was busy partying and playing games.

I could still match it with the A grade students in discussions and arguments...... tests just werent my bag....

On that level I can relate to Bush.....
 
2005-06-08 02:58:24 AM
It's cute that people believe college grades mean anything and that the world doesn't run on family/personal connections.
 
2005-06-08 02:59:25 AM
The story wasn't about Kerry's military record exploring the allegations of the Swift Boat Veteran idiots. It was about his educational performance which left much to be desired. No reporter is obligated to bring up an entire persons life experience when writing on a particular topic. Just because they may omit a subject area doesn't mean they have a particular agenda. That may be an explanation, but it also may be a limitation of space for the particular article or lack of access to the resources you may wish they explored when writing this article.

I do find it rather amusing that Kerry refused to issue his records in a timely fashion during the presidential race when Bush had his in the open and mocked by the media.
 
2005-06-08 02:59:47 AM
RaveX
with the parts about his war record being clean and the Swift Boat Vets changing their stories left out.



uuummmm...I thought the article was about grades, not about war records or the swift boat guys. I would think that instead of being "incompetent" as you say. they were just staying on topic.
 
2005-06-08 03:00:10 AM
Sum Dum Gai: So you're saying intelligence doesn't influence your grades? I agree that there are plenty of smart people who do poorly, but how many As did you give out to complete mouth-breathing dopes? Grades are certainly not an infallible measure of intelligence, but what can you trust more? The only real test of intelligence comes from prolonged interaction with an individual and evaluation of their output, which is impossible with standardized testing.
 
2005-06-08 03:00:20 AM
andrew131

YOU'RE EITHER AN IDIOT OR NOT READING.

No. I've explicitly said twice now that the media in general is neither left nor right, just lazy and incompetent.

CNN in this piece didn't tell the whole story at all, I hope you agree. They've focused on the one point that is negative (grades) and left out the positive (clean war record, Swift Boat Vets for Truth that had written commendations for Kerry).

I've already said twice that I'm not accusing the media of spinning. What I am saying is that IF I WERE RETARDED, I could say that, and that it's identical to every case where conservatives claim that a liberal media bias exists.
 
2005-06-08 03:02:50 AM
Good job, Divertor!


(click for the video)

Einstein flunked a math class.
Both men are working for the same cause.
Please wake up.
 
2005-06-08 03:02:58 AM
AtlMotherFarker

Believe it or not, knowing how government works (in your country or others) has nothing to do with getting elected into office.
 
2005-06-08 03:02:59 AM
log_jammin

uuummmm...I thought the article was about grades, not about war records or the swift boat guys. I would think that instead of being "incompetent" as you say. they were just staying on topic.

No... see, that's the thing. These grades were released today as a part of a much larger file, all released today after Kerry signed form 180. But instead of writing about the whole thing, as a handful of more responsible news organizations have done, CNN has focused on the one easy story-- Kerry didn't have good grades. Why is this the story on CNN's front page and the fact that the Swift Boat Vets signed statements to the contrary of their accusations during the campaign isn't?
 
2005-06-08 03:03:12 AM
It's funny how people tend to make fun of a competent politician, in favor of a loasy one.

Leave the guy alone alread jerks.
 
2005-06-08 03:05:11 AM
whiteguysamurai

A competent politician would have defeated a sitting President as embattled as Bush.

Competent Politician = A politician skilled at maintaining or increasing his power
 
2005-06-08 03:06:00 AM
Well, at least we now know why Kerry refused to release all of his Navy records.

Of course instead of being painted as stupid like bush, has was characterized as a liar and a traitor.

I used to feel really bad because I thought it wasn't deserved.

Not so much now.

Really though, no matter how dumb Bush might be, he still beat Kerry.

And no matter how big a loser Kerry is, he still beat Howard Dean.

Leader of the Democratic Party.

Isn't that scary. Really, I see nothing but bad things for the Democratic party with Dean in charge.

He worked way better as in internet ideal, than the crack pot with a microphone he has turned out to be.
 
2005-06-08 03:07:36 AM
Clean military records mean nothing when it comes to allegations. I mean Bush continually gets bashed for his service (or lack there of) in the National Guard when the records show the obligation was fulfilled. So what if Kerry's records are blank on or state something else than the Swift Boat wackos claimed. Partisans on either side of the political spectrum will continue to cast doubts on the military service of Bush and Kerry even if everything is perfectly clean in the paperwork.
 
2005-06-08 03:09:17 AM
RaveX
"CNN has focused on the one easy story-- Kerry didn't have good grades"

Thats not really what the article says though. all it says is that they had "similar" grades.
 
2005-06-08 03:10:52 AM
Chelsea Clinton Is Carrot Top's Lost Twin

...he then pick the swift boats because that was supposed to be the safe bet...

Yeah, 'cause the Vietnamese sunk a battleship every week.

(That's bothered me for a long time; you're the unlucky one)
 
2005-06-08 03:11:01 AM
Grades have nothing to do with intelligence? Let's compare my old high school class grades to my test grades from the same period...

AP Calculus
Class: D
AP Test: 5

AP Psychology
Class: F
AP Test: 5

AP Biology
Class: A
AP Test: 5

AP English
Class: C
AP Test: 5

AP US History
Class: B+
AP Test: 3

Overall high school mark at graduation: ~90
SATs (taken once): 800 Verbal/710 Math
SAT IIs: Math II - 740; Biology EM - 750; Writing - 740

And the last time I took an IQ test, I was 165.

My GPA for my most recent semester in college? 1.8.

It's because I don't do the work, because it's mundane, boring, and quite frankly, beneath me. We can get more into my theories on the educational process if you'd like, but for now, believe me...grades = effort and diligence. Not intelligence.
 
2005-06-08 03:11:22 AM
I see where RaveX is coming from. Instead of the story talking about the grades obtained in college specifically, they should have made the focus of the article "Widespread and rampant distortion of facts in 2004 Election".

Then they would be non-partisan and if you address all the issues to do with a topic, you cannot be accused of bias.

But that leads me back to my "Corporate Media" comment. The media and journalism used to be about informing people and giving all sides of the story. Due to peoples short attention spans and desire to become enraged about something, the media these days only publishes stuff that will get people riled up. Its good for ratings.

Journalism used to be an hounorable profession, but is now on the same level as marketing and law. Greed before principles....
 
2005-06-08 03:12:59 AM
Daedalus27

Clean military records mean nothing when it comes to allegations. I mean Bush continually gets bashed for his service (or lack there of) in the National Guard when the records show the obligation was fulfilled.

Bush's military records weren't clean. They showed clear gaps in service.

So what if Kerry's records are blank on or state something else than the Swift Boat wackos claimed.

It's not just stating something else. It's that several of the Swift Boat wackos themselves personally wrote commendations for Kerry while serving with him. That's a story.

I'm actually not particularly interested in a discussion of Bush v. Kerry, though. That's a dead horse that someone else in this thread can beat.
 
2005-06-08 03:16:27 AM
AtlMotherFarker
Why do we elect leaders that make D's in political science? Can someone answer me that? I'm an engineer and make better grades in political science courses. This is just pathetic.

We can only hope an engineer one day takes that place. It would be the perfect skillset to deal with problems -- engineering is all about problem solving, and working at trying to strike a balance between mutually competing interests (cost/benefit).

smcfark
So you're saying intelligence doesn't influence your grades?

It's certainly a factor, but I'd not even commit myself to saying it's the most important factor.

I agree that there are plenty of smart people who do poorly, but how many As did you give out to complete mouth-breathing dopes?

Yes, but upwards mobility is harder than downwards mobility. It's easy for someone who should be an A student to earn a C, it's hard for someone who should be a C student to earn an A. Although a lot depends on the course, I know courses where the only grades given are A or B. I've had courses I've taken where I've been prouder that I earned a B- in that class than an A+ in an easier class.

Grades are certainly not an infallible measure of intelligence, but what can you trust more? The only real test of intelligence comes from prolonged interaction with an individual and evaluation of their output, which is impossible with standardized testing.

I don't think there is a good standardized test for intelligence, period. Very little on examinations in college are measuring intelligence; more are measuring memorization and recitation. There's something called Bloom's Taxonomy, which lists the various levels of understanding of material. Each successive level demonstrates a greater understanding of the material than the previous level. The levels are:

1. Knowledge
2. Comprehension
3. Application
4. Analysis
5. Synthesis
6. Evaluation

Most college examinations test principally level 1. Very few test anything beyond level 3, sometimes 4.
 
2005-06-08 03:16:43 AM
All hail jpchip, super-genius at large. And nuclear_asshat, I'm pretty sure Dean is the Chairman of the DNC or some nonsense like that, not the "Leader of the Democratic Party."
 
2005-06-08 03:17:40 AM
jpchip

You may be intelligent, yet you can't figure out that you should get your ass in gear and get better grades...plus you're wasting your time and money at college.

Interesting.
 
2005-06-08 03:17:48 AM
log_jammin

RaveX
"CNN has focused on the one easy story-- Kerry didn't have good grades"

Thats not really what the article says though. all it says is that they had "similar" grades.


Sigh. My point stands. Their "similar" grades weren't very good. The story wouldn't have been written at all if Bush were known for being an "A" student and Kerry turned out to be an "A" student as well.

My point is that there's a hell of a lot of missing information in this story-- there's only one sentence in it that mentions where this came from-- the Navy records-- and they haven't bothered reporting any of the other information that was released (that happened to be favorable to Kerry) and is relevant. That's shoddy reporting.
 
2005-06-08 03:18:25 AM
To get the most out of life you should attain a grade of 80% and follow the 80/20 rule. Otherwise, your overall achievement diminishes as you try to comply with the bullshiat. You should attempt to attain a 3.2 gpa, which is the ideal gpa.
 
2005-06-08 03:18:33 AM
I love threads where everyone has an excuse to show off their (invariably awesome) test scores. Because really, we all give a shiat.
 
2005-06-08 03:19:14 AM
Ironpoint

The program I'm in would wash me out if I had a GPA that low.
 
2005-06-08 03:20:01 AM
jpchip
"grades = effort and diligence. Not intelligence."

Shouldn't that be...intelligence=effort and diligence?
 
2005-06-08 03:20:03 AM
Ok, I'm thinking Fark has me blacklisted. My headline was so much better.

/shuffles off... conspiracies! They're out to get me...
 
2005-06-08 03:22:13 AM
you can't figure out that you should get your ass in gear and get better grades...plus you're wasting your time and money at college

Why should I waste my time for a number on a piece of paper? I'm a musician, my grades have little to do with my ability...and I'll get my degree, so it's not a waste, though honestly I don't see the point of college if you're not going into a field like science, medicine, engineering, etc. Liberal arts should be learned through apprenticeship and experience.
 
2005-06-08 03:22:31 AM
To those of you arguing that Bush is a moron chimp, remember this...


he went to two of the best universities in America and among the Top 10 in the world, Harvard and Yale.
 
2005-06-08 03:22:54 AM
For jpchip, with all due respect:


Judge Smails: You know, you should play with Dr. Beeper and myself. I mean, he's been club champion for three years running and I'm no slouch myself.
Ty Webb: Don't sell yourself short Judge, you're a tremendous slouch.


/just popped in my head
 
2005-06-08 03:23:56 AM
I hate to tell all the super-geniuses on the thread this, but it probably needs to be said.

Hard work and dilligence will get you further in this world than intelligence. Your employer doesn't care what your IQ is, he cares whether you'll take the tasks he gives you seriously and perform them competently. Grades reflect that. Sorry.
 
2005-06-08 03:24:05 AM
log_jammin

Shouldn't that be...intelligence=effort and diligence?

Apparently you missed the entire point. Doing mindless busy work is a sign of decreased intelligence, not increased.
 
2005-06-08 03:26:00 AM
geekpunk2

Isn't it great what money can buy?
 
2005-06-08 03:26:27 AM
psherman

You're right, obviously. But who's going to leave the more lasting impact in society?
 
2005-06-08 03:28:40 AM
geekpunk2

To those of you arguing that Bush is a moron chimp, remember this...


he went to two of the best universities in America and among the Top 10 in the world, Harvard and Yale.


You've proven that he comes from a wealthy and influential family. Nothing more.

Hell, I went to a school that is currently #11 in the U.S., ahead of Brown, Cornell, and the University of Chicago. Most of the kids there were smart... but some were just dumb and rich. It happens.

I'm not going to argue that Bush is a chimp (I don't want to get into a totally stupid argument right now), but I will say that if you're going to prove otherwise, you've got to do better than that.
 
2005-06-08 03:29:02 AM
Geniuses who also have a good work ethic.
 
2005-06-08 03:29:22 AM
RaveX, if you want to write the story, get yourself a blog and go for it. Journalists are not necessarily lazy or incompetent because they don't write a story your way. The story was on education and focused on that. It would get a lot of traffic given Kerry was consistently painted as the more intelligent candidate, but by one of the main measures society uses to measure intelligence, he was as mediocre as Bush.

If you want to write a story in the military records released, or direct us to that aspect of the story, go for it. The topic is or was the education of Kerry and Bush. It is not as if this story was conjured out of thin air but purposefully kept hidden because they were potentially damaging in the tight election campaign.
 
2005-06-08 03:30:00 AM
I go to a top-5 university. If anyone brings up their grades / SAT scores / whatever, they get punched. Hard. Seriously, nobody cares about your grades, that's just a measure of how willing you are to do homework with time that could better be spent for (in my case) research. Or in Kerry's case, being a war hero.
 
2005-06-08 03:30:05 AM
If 3.2 is too low for your program, you're at the wrong school. You're at a 100%-er school and will probably not become a president or senator.
 
2005-06-08 03:30:07 AM
People have an amazing work ethic when they're doing something that they feel is worth their time.
 
2005-06-08 03:31:11 AM
tdpatriots12
And we did our best to dethone him...
But unfortunatly we have alot of hill-billies, too afraid of gay people to realize: we all are suffering for poorly made choices.
 
2005-06-08 03:32:05 AM
Yeah but his dad was a rich alumnus geekpunk.

/mander got 4.33 on fourteen credits last semester
//but his IQ is very low.
 
2005-06-08 03:33:11 AM
jpchip

Just wondering what your major is if you're that smart and still running a 1.8. Seems like unless you're in a science/technical field you should be able to slip by with at least a 2.5 and minimal work.
 
2005-06-08 03:33:39 AM
Sum Dum Gai: I agree completely. what do you teach?

jpchip: it's all well and good to point out that smart kids like you can get bad grades. of course you can get bad grades if you are a lazy fark. good job with that. the thing is many students work hard to earn their mediocre grades. for them it is intelligence, or at least ability to absorb/communicate information that is holding them back. I am curious what you mean by "liberal arts should be learned through apprenticeship and experience" though: it seems that engineering an medicine are far more apt to be taught through apprenticeship/experience than, say, english or philosophy. a good liberal arts education requires a lot of reading and writing and talking, not so much hands-on experience. Now, if you want to debate the VALUE of a liberal arts education, we could do that too.

Just to stay on topic, bush is still dumb!
 
2005-06-08 03:39:10 AM
"I hate to tell all the super-geniuses on the thread this, but it probably needs to be said.

Hard work and dilligence will get you further in this world than intelligence. Your employer doesn't care what your IQ is, he cares whether you'll take the tasks he gives you seriously and perform them competently. Grades reflect that. Sorry."

just needed repeating


Ironpoints: "If 3.2 is too low for your program, you're at the wrong school. You're at a 100%-er school and will probably not become a president or senator." What the heck are you talking about? First, 3.2 is too low for a lot of programs in a lot of things at almost any school. Second, what is a 100%-er school? Third, you probably will not become a president or senator. Probably no one on this thread will. Probably no one on Fark will, for that matter. What the heck does that have to do with anything?
 
2005-06-08 03:39:22 AM
jpchip
"Apparently you missed the entire point. Doing mindless busy work is a sign of decreased intelligence, not increased."

I think your missing the point. "My GPA for my most recent semester in college? 1.8."
Wasting money in college with a 1.8 GPA when your capable of doing the work is a sign of decreased intelligence, not increased.

"Why should I waste my time for a number on a piece of paper?"
so you think its a waste of time to get that piece of paper, but your going anyway, but your not doing the work because its "beneath you"? OK man.

just be sure to put on your application, in the section marked "other things about yourself", "please ignore my GPA because "grades = effort and diligence. Not intelligence."

Good luck!
 
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