FARK.com: (1518464) Lexington holds its breath as Supreme Court refuses to rule in Lexmark dispute, nicknamed "Why does it cost less to throw away my old printer and buy a new one than replace the toner cartridge?"

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(Some Guy)		Lexington holds its breath as Supreme Court refuses to rule in Lexmark dispute, nicknamed "Why does it cost less to throw away my old printer and buy a new one than replace the toner cartridge?" (sanluisobispo.com)		157
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RocketRay		2005-06-07 04:46:14 PM

Friend of mine bought a Lexmark inkjet printer. He was very happy with it.... for a week. Then he calls me and says it's out of ink, and then he was really pissed when he found out how expensive ink is. That convinced me to get a laser printer. Sure, no color, but no getting ripped off on cartridges either.

/got HP, not Lexmark

Hogwasher		2005-06-07 04:47:09 PM

Printing at work is fine unless you have the kind of boss who puts paper with staples in it through the office laser printer and then asks you why there are funny lines down the pages...

New fuser drum for aging Laserjet 3 ~ $1000
Brand new networked Laserjet ~ $5000
Telling the boss you'll stop laughing when he signs the purchase order for the latter, and then sitting there grinning like a Cheshire Cat for a week? Priceless

JohnBigBootay		2005-06-07 04:47:17 PM

I've got an NEC superscript 870 monochrome laser that's seen daily use in an office for 6 freakin' years! On paydays and other occasions I print hundreds of copies and this happens every couple of weeks. I know that's not exactly the University District kinko's for volume, but it ain't a home office either... 6 freakin' years! I bought another on ebay recently for $150 just in case the thing ever dies, but it shows no signs of doing so.

Tom_Steuber		2005-06-07 04:48:27 PM

The Homer Tax:

Apples to oranges. If you write some code, and then someone else writes a program that acts as a plug-in or add on to your program and sells it, that's fine. Even if you write a similar plug-in.

It would be akin to GM suing Raybestos because Raybestos makes brakes that fit in their car....I don't see why this is fine, and the printer thing isn't just because there's a computer involved in one scenario.

Naw, dude, it's the same. The chip is just code (copyright protected code for that matter). Lexmark says they copied their chip (i.e. copied their code). Anyway, I don't think you are looking at this deeply enough. Companies are required to pony up the cash for thier warranty service in advance (meaning they have to be able to cover their potential outstanding warranty liabilities). Now, if someone uses a reman toner cart, and that farks up the printer, who is out the cash here? Well, it turns out that it's Lexmark. How can Lexmark prove you the end user farked up the printer with a reman cart without a chip?

Secret Agent Cubbie		2005-06-07 04:48:57 PM

Hey cyberlost, Telus has already beat you to the no charger with cellphones idea. They just sell broken ones and pull the replacements off the market so you have to either pay 300$ to get out of your contract and have no phone, buy a new phone, or sign up for 2 more years at a higher rate. Scammers. I bought a lexmark on sale, thing in the biggest piece of crap, bleeds like crazy and it will cost me more than the printer to replace the ink.

TPScoversheet		2005-06-07 04:49:26 PM

Actually, I'm pretty happy with my Canon i1500 (~ $50 from Amazon). The ink cartridges are less than $10 each and last at least as long as the HP cartridges did in my old Office Jet.

Galland		2005-06-07 04:50:36 PM

I guess I'm showing my age, but I think dot matrix pin printers are still the best solution for people who only need to print out text documents. The cartridges are (were?) dirt cheap and last for many more pages than any 'modern' consumer level ink cartridge I'm familiar with.

My first (and last) non-ribbon PC printer was a Canon BJC-2010 I got for free. When the included cartridge dried up after just twenty pages, I chalked it up to a defective or expired cartridge that must've sat too long in the warehouse. I was appalled when I purchased a new cartridge and it crapped out after printing the same number of pages. The 3rd cartridge dried up because I didn't use it for two or three weeks- I got exactly two pages out of that one.

That was the end of my shiny new BJC-2010 and my post-dot matrix printing adventure. Today the Canon sits dormant in a dusty corner of my den. I should probably chuck it in the dumpster to free up space.

DammitCatQuitJumpingOnMe		2005-06-07 04:51:34 PM

Heh, you guys should see the price of mailing machine ink.

SoberPhobic		2005-06-07 04:53:06 PM

$1000 for a Laserjet 3 fuser? If only we can make that kind of cash on a repair! We sell the LJIII fuser for $69 and buy it for $29.

oldebayer		2005-06-07 04:55:25 PM

IronChefRichmond

*Blhack*
"They don't include a USB cable. You have to shell out 30 farking dollars"

You only have to pay that amount if you buy from Circuit City, Best Buy, etc. You can get one for ~$7 at Amazon.

I got a 10 ft. USB cable at Big Lots for $4.99 plus tax. Also picked up S-video, Component and Composite video cables there for similar amounts. They also have printer cartridges and even printers sometimes.

Alveolar_Stop		2005-06-07 04:56:27 PM

Re: Lexmark admin.

I have nothing good or bad to say about Lexmark, having never used one of their printers. However, if I did, why should I be cautious about it because of an employee here? I try not to say anything about a person or a company unless I'd be full willing to say it directly to that person or a representative of the company. Knowing an employee was listening would make more more, rather than less, likely to air my complaints. I'd prefer it be someone in charge, but I takes what I gets.

Delawheredad		2005-06-07 04:58:33 PM

How about Clinton's own words where he claims credit for the
STUPID act.
STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT

Today I am pleased to sign into law H.R. 2281, the "Digital Millennium Copyright Act." This Act implements two landmark treaties that were successfully negotiated by my Administration in 1996 and to which the Senate gave its advice and consent to ratification on October 21, 1998. The Act also limits the liability of online service providers for copyright infringement under certain conditions.

source http://www2.ari.net/home/dfc/issues/graphic/2281/presidn/presidn.html

quickdraw		2005-06-07 05:02:04 PM

I thought computers were going to give us the "paperless office" instead we have the "inkless" office.

Last year I asked for Ink Cartridges for xmas.

neongoats		2005-06-07 05:05:40 PM

Lasers arent that expensive these days, on a good day with dell discounts you can get a color network ready laser for ~$350, i managed to get the Dell 3100CN for $320 shipped a month or 2 ago... awesome printer

...too bad it's a Lexmark.

The Dell 3100CN is made by fuji/xerox. My company reworked about 1500 of those things. (also the 5100cn, and the 3000cn)

Davyngyre		2005-06-07 05:07:31 PM

I have a canin i680 from a few years ago. It is great qaulity, But it has a great ink system. All the electronics and the print head are part of the printer, you just change the ink resevours. It is one of the cheapest cost per page printers there is, and it is a great photo and text printer.

Blhack		2005-06-07 05:11:17 PM

THE reason that i am so mad about the whole 'cable not coming in the box thing' is because i used to work at Best Buy, guess how much a cable cost me......92 cents, yes, thats right, 92 cents. I didn't care then and bought cables all the time, so i now have a stockpile (along with 5 dollar packs of cds and DVD's, i think i bought two packs of verbitam DVDs for like 10-15 bucks each). I just felt like a jackass every time that i sold somebody a printer and then had to convice them that they also needed a 30 dollar 'gold plated!' USB cable!!! GAH!

/don't even get me started on the service plans
//hate's best buy with a passion
///slash whore

st_gulik		2005-06-07 05:11:18 PM

GWShenlong05: Heh. Easy on the Lexmark flaming. One of the admins works for them.

Guess that didn't work out for you, huh?

Free Speech is a nice thing. :)

further		2005-06-07 05:14:35 PM

Lexmark says Static Control is interfering with its relationship with customers.

Lexmark, shirtless and smoking a cigarette outside its trailer, stated, "We got a good relationship and we don't need that motherfarker butting in. I mean, sure, I hit my baby sometimes, but she knows I love her. It's just that, I, I get jealous, is all."

h to the 'ojo		2005-06-07 05:17:34 PM

This is why I shelled out some money to buy a printer from a company that doesn't try to pull this crap. Cannon i850, cartridges are clear plastic. The printer will warn you when it is low and will actually work until there is 100% no ink left. There are 3 colour cartridges and 1 black so I can replace them individually. At the time I got it at least, the ink was one of the best $/page values, really fast, and great quality.

I could have bought a printer/scanner/copier for less but instead I voted with my money against companies that try to stop you from printing when there is ink left in the cartridge, the cartridge has 'expired', the cartridge wasn't made by the printer company.

Nogami		2005-06-07 05:22:13 PM

After my experiences with Lexmark and their "creative cartridge pricing" at work, I will never buy one of their printers as long as I live.

And I actively discourage others from doing so as well. If Lexmark thinks they're going to make a profit by locking people into their supplies, I plan on actively reducing that profit by driving-away as many customers as possible.

N.

BarryJV		2005-06-07 05:41:12 PM

Tom_Steuber
Finally, where are all the farkin' libertarians here defending the rights of the capitalists?

Sorry, mate, Libertarians aren't going to support a government enforced monopoly.

hexboy		2005-06-07 05:49:32 PM

I noticed Lexmark's first attempt was a DMCA violation... Has anyone, anywhere seen a valid use of this law yet?

/just askin'

M-G		2005-06-07 06:02:37 PM

SoberPhobic:

$1000 for a Laserjet 3 fuser? If only we can make that kind of cash on a repair! We sell the LJIII fuser for $69 and buy it for $29

My thoughts exactly. I'll start selling him his printer parts.

But it points out that the absolute best bet for printing is to use an older LJ. Nearly indestructible, usually cheap to find with low page counts, and parts are easy to get, so you can keep them running forever. And the cost per page is great.

EverCompromised		2005-06-07 06:04:20 PM

I bought a Brother multifunction b/w laser printer. So far, it's been pretty great. If I need color, I'll go to Kinkos.

I won't get an inkjet because I hate, beyond the money, the hassle of replacing the damn cartridges. If they made one that held, say four gallons of ink, then I might think about it.

tofoomeister		2005-06-07 06:04:51 PM

jonnyh So, if you don't want to be anally assaulted when it comes to ink and toner... buy OLD.

I think you and Ouroborus, while smart for trying to save money, are missing the point.

Eventually, there will be no more "old" reliable printers, like the HP Laserjet 6 series, or the Apple LaserWriter 230 (HP printer in Apple skin from 1992 that we still use). Buying old is a workaround, not a solution to the problem that Lexmark (and, admittedly, others) are causing by monopolizing the ink replacement business.

I personally don't mind Lexmark trying to give away printers and screw people on ink. There are some people out there who just don't print all that often. The depleted ink cartridge that comes with the free printers might last years for some people, making it a good bargain. If you're at all serious about printing, you shouldn't be suckered into buying a POS inkjet anyway.

While it's impractical for most consumers, indenture has the right idea: a lease with a consumables included clause. The respectable printer companies (Xerox, Ricoh, etc.) are moving towards that business model, one that makes sense for both the seller and the consumer.

mama's_tasty_foods		2005-06-07 06:05:56 PM

I'll tell you what deserves the "amusing" tag, or "dumbass" if you prefer:

Lexmark's appeal to the Supreme Court was filed late and rejected, a spokeswoman for the Lexington, Ky., company said

Sometimes even sophisticated business entities, represented by some of America's best lawyers, lose cases because they miss the farking deadline.

I wonder how long that law firm will keep the Lexmark account?

Jeff		2005-06-07 06:16:04 PM

Yeah, I work at Lexmark. I don't own a printer either.
I think it sucks that Lexmark and all the other printer companies sell hardware at a loss and sucker people into buying lots of ink at high profit, but that's how business works.

I also agree that some of our printers suck. But you can say that for some of the printers from the other companies too. What the hell do you expect for a $39 printer?

AlgaeRancher		2005-06-07 06:28:18 PM

I used to just think inkjet Printers hated me

/then I realized inkjet Printers hate everybody

get a laser, you wont be sorry

DammitCatQuitJumpingOnMe		2005-06-07 06:28:29 PM

The big Lexmark printers aren't that bad, I have serviced a few of them in my time.

kaikara		2005-06-07 06:30:11 PM

maybe you shouldn't buy your USB cables and other crap from Best Buy and you might not get ripped off. Same as the people that pay for Monster cables when you can get cables at 1/10th the cost that are just as good. And informed consumer is a happy consumer and is not getting royally screwed.

Diacetylmorphine		2005-06-07 06:47:27 PM

Blhack
They don't include a USB cable. You have to shell out 30 farking dollars

This cool computer reuse/recycling place a few blocks away just gave me a USB cable the other day. Greenies are very cool if you get past the no shaving thing. Maybe that is why, they never had to deal with the "give the razor/sell the blades" deal.
Also, volunteer there for 30 hours, they give you a computer, printer, monitor, speakers, the whole shebang. Great for us VERY poor folks.

Hogwasher		2005-06-07 06:50:08 PM

SoberPhobic:

$1000 for a Laserjet 3 fuser? If only we can make that kind of cash on a repair! We sell the LJIII fuser for $69 and buy it for $29

That was a couple of years ago, hence I can sit at my new desk and write about it, and the numbers are not exact. You can get a $200 quote to repair a printer you want to keep, and you can get a $1000 quote to repair a printer you would love to see the back of ;-)

It was also before The Office came out, so that old printer is probably still sitting at the back of some cupboard.

Rurik		2005-06-07 06:51:08 PM

Picked up a Samsung b/w laser printer for $150. $60 toner has lasted me near two years ago with regular usage. Screw ink cartridges... never again. I want my old Epson LQ-500 from my first computer back :(

null		2005-06-07 06:55:00 PM

Cost for two Apple LaserWriter 16/600s, additional RAM (4 16MB 30-pin SIMMS), two AUI to 10BaseT transceivers, 1 "new" Staples toner cartridge, and 2 500 page additional cassettes: approx $150

That's the printers, RAM, transceivers, and additional cassettes from a "computer junk" store that picked them up from Bowling Green State University.

The printer that's been used here started with ~156,800 pages on the clock, and is now at 162,126. Haven't replaced or refilled the toner yet. The other printer has clocked 214,347. Stickers say manufactured July and August 1994.

I found the Apple Service Manual for these babies, took 'em apart, scrubbed the plastic bits in the bathtub, blew the dust and toner out of the framework with an airgun, cleaned and lubed all the pickups, gears, and rollers, put 'em back together, and they've done fine since. They feature LocalTalk, parallel, and AUI Ethernet to talk to them on, and they speak LPR or AppleTalk and know PostScript Level 2. As an added bonus, they have SCSI interfaces, so on a whim I attached a 1GB external SCSI drive and stuck some fonts on there. (After sacrificing a goat to the SCSI chain, of course.)

I just want to find the envelope feeder attachment, and for completeness' sake the optional internal drive and the FAX card.

I'm so happy to have a printer that doesn't run out of paper (750 sheets total) or ink (toner's been good for 6k pages so far). Meanwhle, when I have to print color stuff, the inkjets flash the "WE DEMAND INK! WE DEMAND PAPER!" lights at me all the time.

pelzo63		2005-06-07 07:02:22 PM

about 3 months ago i was considering just buying a new $50 HP printer instead of getting ink for my 3 year old HP photosmart printer at $50, then i looked at the amount of ink in the cheap HP, it came with less than 1/3rd of the ink that i get in the new cartridges. so new cartridges it was.

legton2323		2005-06-07 07:07:46 PM

ah duh, why do u think you can buy a color/scanner/printer/fax machine for 70 bucks? yeah lets have the government get involved reducing the cost of ink and then they will just raise the cost of the printers

lawboy87		2005-06-07 07:08:33 PM

This is a case of a company trying to apply a law which isn't really applicable. Copyrights were never intended to protect "useful inventions" that is the job of patent laws. I don't really see how the DMCA is applicable to protect a "product" in this way and certainly not to one that can be reversed engineered legally under all other applicable laws.

BTW, as everyone has noted, its often cheaper to buy a new printer than to actually buy the replacement toners. Guess what, I do! Maybe that will teach the gready bastards to employ a new marketing strategy where they don't try and grease you constantly for replacement parts. One other thing that po's me is why on color printers, do they not make an option which allows solely for black ink to be used on printing documents and the like? Even if you are printing black only, a little of your color ink is being used up each and every print cycle.

legton2323		2005-06-07 07:10:02 PM

remember also that the ink you get with a new printer is less than half the amount you get when you buy new ones

Alveolar_Stop		2005-06-07 07:19:43 PM

Diacetylmorphine

That looks like a fun place to volunteer. Are they only in Eugene?

clambam		2005-06-07 08:05:44 PM

That's why I buy knock-off ink cartridges on line. Myinks.com is a good one. Cartridges cost me about $8 each and in the 8 years I've been doing it I've had maybe two bad cartridges. The next time I buy a printer (which unfortunately will be soon, my old Epson 880 is getting ready to crap out) I'll go to the web site first, check out which ink catridges are available for what printers, and then buy one of those printers.

I agree, I'd rather pay $400 for a printer and have cheap catridges than vice versa.

wasteddave		2005-06-07 08:52:00 PM

In case it hasn't been said already (although i doubt it this late).

Supply and demand motherfarkers. If you guys buy it you pay for it, Do research before you buy you have no farking rights to complain later.

/owns a lexmark
//wants to complain
///knows it's my problem and no one elses

Day_Old_Dutchie		2005-06-07 09:35:02 PM

Awwwww. Stop yer gripin'

http://www.islandinkjet.com/

They sell refill kits.

These places are in just about every two-bit shopping mall.

Shadowspawn		2005-06-07 09:48:53 PM

this is actually one of those cases that would affect taking apart something you own to make it work the way you want it to illegal.

dsmo		2005-06-07 09:57:17 PM

The ink in the new printers are really just samplers, filled only like 30%.

dantheman195		2005-06-07 10:09:54 PM

wombatoftruth
Hey Blhack, you'll love this: I used to work at Staples, and a 6ft USB cable we sold for $19.98 cost us less than $5. Having access to a price gun that listed the cost of each item was pretty enlightening.

I have ordered 6 ft USB Cables in bulk for 65 cents each. We use them like water at my work. People always "borrow" them but never return them. So I found a wholesale catalog and have been ordering 50 at a time for 65 cents each. Beats paying Staples 19.95 or Best Buy 29.95.

TheGreatGazoo		2005-06-07 10:15:58 PM

Actually, the ink for inkjets has stayed about the same price, but the printers have really come down.

I worked at an office where they had a HP Deskjet +, with the Epson FX-80 emulation cartridge, connected to an Apple 2GS system. IIRC it might have had an extra font cartridge.

The printer was about $800, and the ink cartridges were about $25. But don't dare touch the paper after it came out for about 5 minutes (especially with the least wet hands) or it would smear.

Personally, I have a small HP laserjet. I came close to getting the HP color laserjet at Costco for $350 (after instant rebate), but I didn't have room for it on my desk.

dantheman195		2005-06-07 10:17:22 PM

null

Cost for two Apple LaserWriter 16/600s, additional RAM (4 16MB 30-pin SIMMS), two AUI to 10BaseT transceivers, 1 "new" Staples toner cartridge, and 2 500 page additional cassettes: approx $150

That printer is actually a HP LaserJet 4 laser printer, good printer and the Cartridge is easy to get. Just look for a HP LaserJet 4 cartridge. It is a very nice Mono Laser printer and has a good yeild on the toner. I have a few of those still around and a bunch of Laserjet 4 and 5s. Management wanted to buy new Inkjet printers cause the laser printers were getting old, after I told them that we would have to buy 40 ink cartridges a week a 30 bucks a pop, they decided to keep the lasers. Management=stupid

spartan5k		2005-06-08 12:03:20 AM

www.cartridgesavers.com

/my dads company

yookaloco		2005-06-08 12:50:24 AM

posicat wins the thread.

fatality.

flawless victory.

Ghastly		2005-06-08 01:37:11 AM

As far as I know Canon are the only manufacturer still making inkjets you can refil yourself without the need to hack or chip the printer. This is because California law prohibits any government institution from buying printers that are non-refillable thus Canon is the only manufacturer who can sell to government offices in California.

I bought a Canon inkjet to replace my 10 year old Canon inkjet. Refils very easily. Cheap printer, cheap ink, nice print quality.

That's why I'd never buy a Lexmark, Epson, or HP printer. They're all chipped now to not work with third party supplies.

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