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(Some Guy)   Orson Scott Card nails it   (ornery.org) divider line 1068
    More: Hero  
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63958 clicks; posted to Main » on 27 May 2005 at 8:58 PM (9 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2005-05-28 12:12:40 AM
VideoVader

Question of opinion, we see ourself a centrist. Aljazeera has similar problem getting a broadcast license and was on double probation. I'm not ever sure they got a cable company to carry them.
 
2005-05-28 12:14:02 AM
When the Hero tag is used in such an inflamatory way, Fark.com just becomes a shill of the ever-polarizing political flamewar going on in our society.

Mods are just as guilty for greenlighting this sort of thing as each of us are for submitting them
 
2005-05-28 12:14:08 AM
 
2005-05-28 12:14:32 AM
"Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said log entries from Guantanamo had included incidents such as a Koran falling to the floor by accident."

bbcrackmonkey

What is the letter at the end of the word incident above? Is that an 's?'
 
2005-05-28 12:15:01 AM
ilyag

I hear crickets in your corner of the room.
 
2005-05-28 12:15:11 AM
2005-05-28 12:12:21 AM bbcrackmonkey


HowlingFrog, I was under the impression that everyone who had citizenship was an American, but apparently some Americans are more American than other Americans.


Four Legs Good! Two Legs Better!
 
2005-05-28 12:15:31 AM
 
2005-05-28 12:15:55 AM
Aias:

Well, keep comin' back! Next...
 
2005-05-28 12:15:59 AM
2wolves, you keep quoting the article like it actually proves me wrong. I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at, but I've got to tell you, speaking as somebody who grabbed a Book of Mormon from his shelf and stuck it in his ass-crack for the last debating round we had about Newsweek, I could give a shiat about somebody's fancy holy books.

And you can actually sit down ok with a Book of Mormon in your ass crack if you position it right. You've got to kind of grab the binder in your crack then open it up about half-way and let the pages flare out across your ass-cheeks.

I wonder what Orson Scott Carde thinks about that.
 
2005-05-28 12:16:07 AM
...BRILLIANT, Osceola...just the point I was trying to make...
 
2005-05-28 12:16:26 AM
bbcrackmonkey

"apparently some Americans are more American than other Americans."

Bush's Town Hall meetings described in a nutshell.
 
2005-05-28 12:16:38 AM
kiteflyer
I have never ever been tolerant. Since when is Fark a tolerant place??
How exacly am I supposed to like someone telling me he hates my guts?


Dude, there's a difference between tolerance and acceptance. I've had plenty of people on this site say they hate me for my views, but though I find it terribly annoying and tell them they're being idiots, I tolerate their right to express that view, so long as they don't actually try to incite harm against anyone. Here, I'll let Mr. Garrison explain:

Look, just because you have to tolerate something doesn't mean you have to approve of it! ..."Tolerate" means you're just putting up with it! You tolerate a crying child sitting next to you on the airplane or, or you tolerate a bad cold. It can still piss you off!

 
2005-05-28 12:17:34 AM
I am also amused that Card disregarded the results of the investigation stating that indeed the Koran was desecrated a number of times durring interrogations which, to a certain degree, validates Newsweek's story.

Yes, their wasn't flushing, but then again the section of Newsweek the story was posted in is known for being soft on details and hammed up for impact a la editorials.
 
2005-05-28 12:18:00 AM
deepbeep:
nice quote. i need to keep that one around.
strikethroughs was good to.
keep it up.
 
2005-05-28 12:18:32 AM
"I wonder what Orson Scott Carde thinks about that."

I'm guessing he wouldn't feel it as deeply as you have.
 
2005-05-28 12:20:46 AM
Before everyone gets TOO het up about the 1949 Geneva Convention, I'd recommend reading the bugger. It's quite legalistically formal, but worth the time, and you'll be able to impress your friends, I'm sure. I am not a lawyer, so I of course could be wildly wrong in my interpretation.

I don't believe that the Taliban, or the insurgents/freedom fighters/what-have-you in Afghanistan or Iraq are nationals of signatories to the Geneva Conventions (I may be wrong, though). If they want the protections of the Geneva Conventions, they need to operate in accordance with the Conventions, which is specified in Article 2. You can count off quickly the violations of Article 3 that these folks have committed, and as such I don't think the Geneva Conventions really apply - if we were dealing with nationals/combatants from a signatory nation, things would be a bit different, even if they were exercising the same antisocial behavior.

In a nutshell, they're not obeying said Conventions, so we don't have to treat them accordingly. On the other hand, I do think we should follow Article 5, even though the people in question may not be nationals of a signatory nation, on the principle of humanity and of standing by our professed moral ethos (but of course, that gap between our professed ideals and our actual behavior can be pretty wide... I greatly admire the soldiers on the ground who can keep their humanity in the midst of the crap they're putting up with on a daily basis).

As it is, it's more the UCMJ that keeps the unpleasant elements in the US military in check - we don't allow many goings-on that in general would be perfectly legal in the light of the Geneva Conventions (I'm glossing over the various human rights treaties to which the US is a signatory), and it's like as not fear of punishment that keeps them from doing Bad Things. Of course, that bad element is in the vast minority - most of the folks over there do want to make some sort of positive contribution, and then get the hell home.
 
2005-05-28 12:21:01 AM
A portion of my review of the article:

"... was not better than Cats..."

Was that guy for real?
 
2005-05-28 12:21:38 AM
bbcrackmonkey:

HowlingFrog, I was under the impression that everyone who had citizenship was an American, but apparently some Americans are more American than other Americans.

My dear crackmonkey, I cede you that point. Well done.
However, I'd also point out that Ben Franklin, when asked what type of government had been decided upon, said: "A Republic. If you can keep it."

Many people were baptised as children. That makes them a Christian, although they may be impartial to, or even wholly reject, the teachings of Jesus.
So I'll stand by my guns, imperfect though they may be.
 
2005-05-28 12:21:54 AM
kevsonic: I'm guessing he wouldn't feel it as deeply as you have.

ZING!

He is a Mormon, though, isn't he?
 
2005-05-28 12:22:19 AM
Mediaho
What country do you live in?

The USA, dude. You have a right to burn the flag in protest. Just don't dessicrate the Quoran.
 
2005-05-28 12:22:48 AM
HowlingFrog: So I'll stand by my guns, imperfect though they may be.

Guns are dangerous. I hope you have permits for them.
 
2005-05-28 12:24:14 AM
kiteflyer
Question of opinion, we see ourself a centrist.


Anybody can say he views himself as centrist: he's the center, and everyone is judged with respect to him. What's your point? It doesn't change the fact that, as far to the left as many in Canada are, that populace is still able to distinguish between the political left and right in America.

Aljazeera has similar problem getting a broadcast license and was on double probation. I'm not ever sure they got a cable company to carry them.

I can't find info on the current status, but if so, it wouldn't be from cable companies not trying in the past.
 
2005-05-28 12:24:42 AM
pshaw:

"Have we learned anything from this?"


We learned that 17 people are dead because Newsweek could not (or would not) hold its partisanship in check.
 
2005-05-28 12:25:47 AM
What's really insane is that, 30 years ago, Chevy Chase correctly predicted that we'd have a President who seemed retarded and fell down a lot. How we laughed!
 
2005-05-28 12:26:28 AM
sdtangler
You could poop on a copy of the Koran right now, and burn it on your barbecue(where you cook pork chops), then flush the ashes down the toilet.

If it was your own copy, this is all still legal in the US.

Try it, you might enjoy it.
 
2005-05-28 12:27:27 AM
Thank you Mr. Card, you have earned the hero tag. I will be sending this to all my left-wing 'friends'.
 
2005-05-28 12:27:31 AM
snow scorpion

We can't confirm those reports. For all we know, those people never existed. Newsweeks mistake caused nothing.
 
2005-05-28 12:28:02 AM
"You have a right to burn the flag in protest. Just don't dessicrate the Quoran"

Not to be a spelling Nazi, but please:
Koran
or
Qur'an

Quoran just reminds me of this: http://www.quorn.com/ Which, while tasty is not a religious book.
 
2005-05-28 12:29:30 AM
Bonzo_1116: Not on national TV you couldn't. Heaven forbid on the evening news.
 
2005-05-28 12:29:36 AM
Warranty

by the defition of VideoVader we have all been very tolerant of Orson Scott Card. Not once did I see someone say that he has not right to say what he said and should be imprisoned and tortured.

We tolerate that he can say it and we can say he is being a whole lot of "dislikable things" for what he said and still be tolerant.

I feel more Canadian already
 
2005-05-28 12:29:46 AM
Aias, Quoran? A Quoran Call is what senators use in the Senate to buy more time to muster up votes. It's like a role-call, but Senatorially.
 
2005-05-28 12:29:50 AM
Me thinks this Card dude has been out in the Utah desert sun a bit too long.

Of course, if I make any comment not agreeing with his point of view, I'm ANTI-MORMON and must be ignore.

/Mormons and Scientologists: They just misunderstood.
 
2005-05-28 12:30:48 AM
I wish all the photoshop threads got this many posts.
/Loves 'shop threads
 
2005-05-28 12:30:57 AM
And as the Iranians and North Koreans have learned, it's very very hard to get rid of a dictatorship with a puritan ideology.

I... think I smell Stockholm Syndrome, irony, and projection...
 
2005-05-28 12:31:02 AM
Bonzo_1116:

You could poop on a copy of the Koran right now, and burn it on your barbecue(where you cook pork chops), then flush the ashes down the toilet.

I don't think I'd want to burn anything covered with poop in my barbecue. That's where I cook pork chops.
 
2005-05-28 12:32:11 AM
Gotta get to sleep. 'night all.

/Vader out
 
2005-05-28 12:32:12 AM
Newsweek = Hitler

pshaw

Thanks for the pics click.
 
2005-05-28 12:32:47 AM
Clavis:

Wow, for three paragraphs I thought it was satire.

Then I read the rest of it and thought he was serious.

Now I realize it's just a particularly inept application of Straussian manipulation.

Nobody could believe that bullshiat. But he's deliberately ringing all the bells that the red-staters will salivate to. I mean, like clockwork. So clumsy that it doesn't quite sound sincere. But it's not sincere; it's marketing copy. It's intended to sell an ideology.

Amazing. It reads like background research material for Starship Troopers.


To paraphrase the esteemed Mr. Windu...

"If what you say is true, then he has regained my trust."

I dunno, it seems all a little too realistic for me... either Mr. Card is a greater writer than I ever imagined, or he's just one of the thousands of the pseudo-patriotic Americans that are making reality a little too close to a certain brand of fiction...
 
2005-05-28 12:32:53 AM
He made a hell of a lot of extremely good points.

Too bad he made a few points that were just assinine.

/Makes it a very difficult job, to agree with anything he says, since too many people see things in Black and White, "He's right." and "He's a jackass!"
//Card's mostly right, and he's mostly a jackass.
 
2005-05-28 12:33:57 AM
This was one of the most low-brow "if only everyone was repulican the world would be a paradise with lolipops and rainbows for all" articles I have ever read.

And guys, you cant disprove news paper stories with other newspaper stories, most of the papers get run through the pentagon now before being published, many of them have had articles pushed on them for propaganda purposes, just like when the neo-conservative lobby was in power during the 80's and early 90's when they were trying to convince the masses to believe that every terrorist organisation (including the IRA) was somehow linked to the soviet union...thus creating the Reagan doctrine and convincing him and the CIA to go to war in Afghanistan.

The same people are back in power, and they're pusing the same "good vs. evil" fantasy they did back then. You cant believe everything you read in these times.
 
2005-05-28 12:34:16 AM
to think that i once respected this guy.

not only has his writing gone to shiat, but he seems to want to put laws in place that would effectively destroy the American media's chances of checking the government.

i will not be sending him my money anymore. not that i wanted to read the 87th installment of ender's game anyway.
 
2005-05-28 12:34:26 AM
bbcrackmonkey: Guns are dangerous. I hope you have permits for them.

Guns are fun. The fascination of accurately hitting a mark from afar. I like taking my old .308 Mauser (iron sights) out onto the high desert outside my door and blowing up milk jugs.
Dangerous? So are cars. There are probably more asshat motorists than asshat gun owners.
 
2005-05-28 12:34:36 AM
Well duh! Isn't it obvious that the people of Smartland should be in charge? You want the people in charge to be smart, right?

Well, we're smart! It says so right in our name!

/got nuthin'
 
2005-05-28 12:35:36 AM
2005-05-28 12:29:30 AM Jayguy


Bonzo_1116: Not on national TV you couldn't. Heaven forbid on the evening news.



The pooping might violate FCC codes, so just make it a cable-pay-per-view event!
 
2005-05-28 12:37:19 AM
HowlingFrog, I know, I was just playin. I went to a firing range for the first time in my life like 2 months ago. My gay friend Matt took me (He's in the NRA) and we fired off a hundred rounds of .38 revolver ammo into cardboard zombie heads and pictures of Bin Laden. It was sweet. Thank God nobody's invented a gun that shoots a car. That would be the ultimate danger.
 
2005-05-28 12:38:34 AM
VideoVader

let me rephase it. From the Left and Right view that Canadians have, American are more to the right and we view ourself as Centrist.

as for Aljazeera, my understanding is that the conditions put on it by the CRTC had discouraged a lot of cable companies from taking it

http://www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/NEWS/RELEASES/2004/r040715.htm
 
2005-05-28 12:41:24 AM
I don't see how some of you can't see at least some truth in what he says.

Those of you who think it's the gospel are just as wrong as the ones who think he is a poopyhead because you suspect he likes bush.

rush limbaugh = al franken = sean hannity = michael moore

It seems to me that for some of you 'lefties' or 'righties' there is no possible freaking way you may considar that much of what you think and hear could be wrong.

My god people think for yourself!
 
2005-05-28 12:42:04 AM
I'm not about to accept moral advice from a member of a Cult.

The greatest asset that Osama and his tribe have going for them is not the tantrumlike behavior of their supporters. It's the fact that the West is deeply divided, as a new religious movement -- politically correct puritanism -- is perilously close to seizing control of the governments of most of the major nations of the West.

Wrong, the fact is that they receive funding and recruits because of our continuing actions to forward our economic policy across the world. We're not exporting Democracy, we're exporting Consumerism.

Look at the targets they attacked on 9/11. They attacked our Military and our Economic "headquarters." Wouldn't they have attacked the Smithstonian, Congress, the White House, The Statue of Liberty, Hollywood, or other icons of our "culture," if that was what they were waging war against?
 
2005-05-28 12:44:04 AM
whatshisname:

What about the FBI, Harpers, the Pentagon and all the other groups that published similar stories, or made similar allegations BEFORE Newsweek?

Wackos don't read those I guess. They do apparently read Newsweek. Newsweek got caught with its' pants down. They deserve the heat they're taking simply because they published without being able to back it up.
 
2005-05-28 12:44:04 AM
Antioch:

nice quote. i need to keep that one around.
strikethroughs was good to.
keep it up.


Thanks. I'm glad someone commented on it, I was really proud of myself :)
 
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