I never give money to beggars.

For one, it's very hard to determine which ones are actually homeless and which ones are trying to drum up a little extra cash. Second, the addiction / mental health situation is totally accurate. At least around here there's tons of services for the unfortunate, from soup kitchens to shelters to free medical clinics to welfare offices. Any person in good mental health would be living in a shelter at minimum.

If you give money to a homeless person, it will quite likely go to feed an addiction or to some other worthless cause. After all, these homeless people don't need money for shelter, food, clothes, or medicine. All that is available to them for free.

Don't forget - you already support the homeless whether you want to or not. Your taxes pay for those soup kitchens, free clinics, shelters, and the like. And supporting them that way, by providing neccessities, is a far better way to help than handing out cash which is almost certain to be misused, possibly by feeding an addiction which is keeping them on the street.

AMEN!

Guy In Guy Incognito:

This is farked up, and I'm not trying to criticize her, this is just to ease my own paranoia: can one back injury really put you out of work? I mean, couldn't she take some localized painkillers and continue a deskjob? I'm sure her situation had other circumstances, but are the odds really that bad for everyone?

Speaking as someone who was bedridden for 8 months with a severely herniated disc, I can assure you that a back injury can fark up your entire WORLD. Sure, many people with bad back injuries are capable of working - IF a job exists that allows them to sit, stand, or lay down whenever they need to, or call off work completely whenever they're having a "can't get out of bed, much less go to work" day. Unfortunately, the job market doesn't work that way. Most employees don't have the option of laying down on the job, or calling in whenever they feel like they can't work that day. Many people without college degrees don't even have the option of *sitting* at work when they need to. Can you imagine a grocery store bagger or a construction worker doing their job while sitting down?

Social Security isn't even a guaranteed income in these circumstances. To get SS Disability, you must prove that your disability is permanent. With many types of back injury, there's no way to prove that the pain will be permanent. Sometimes it heals, sometimes it doesn't. That can mean years of "wait and see", years with zero income whatsoever.

In all honesty, even now I am still out of work. I haven't been able to consistently stay on my feet (or even sit upright) for more than 10-15 minutes at a time in almost two years. My left leg is numb to surface sensations from my hip to my ankle, but those damaged nerves are still quite capable of transmitting the indescribably horrible sciatic nerve pain that strikes at random times throughout the day. Unless you've experienced severe sciatica, it's hard to convey just how agonizing it is. When I'm having a sciatica episode, it honestly feels like someone stabbing me mercilessly with a white-hot ice pick from my hip to my knee, every 5 seconds or so. It comes and goes on its own, and narcotic pain medication is the only thing that makes a dent in the pain (and even narcs don't kill it completely). However, most physicians are VERY reluctant to prescribe narcotics for longer than a week or two, especially for back pain (because it's so easy to "fake"). Two weeks worth of pain medicine don't do much for two years worth of pain, let me tell you. I've taken so much ibuprofen in the past two years, my stomach was literally bleeding from it.

Yes, back injuries can truly be THAT devastating. We spend millions every year to teach young people to care for their hearts and lungs (anti-smoking campaigns, eating less saturated fat, cutting salt, etc.) But a back injury can be as devastating to your livelihood as a heart attack. Funny how there aren't many programs out there to teach young people to care for their spines and back muscles. And the ones that *do* exist (ergonomic regulations, repetitive motion pamphlets, etc.) are constantly scorned and belittled as "junk science" by the certain corporately-owned politicians and health insurance companies. Back injury is often looked at with extreme skepticism, much like carpal tunnel syndrome, tendonitis, or TMJ.

2005-05-16 09:28:27 AM Helldonkey

Yes, because with a name like Jarell Maurice, he is very likely to fit the republican demographic.

Trolling can actually be thought provoking sometimes. Yours was not one of those times. Hurry back to the grill, your patties are probably burning.

circletimessquare

it's easy to fall down

it's hard to build a life

as for the farkers that beat her to death, after they get out of jail and have difficulty finding a job, and have to spend a few nights on the street, i hope the the ghost of a sad homeless woman who had a hard life pays them a visit


Actually I hope she stomps their heads in. SCUMBAGS.

They ought to be tried for M1 and executed. In fact, it is cases like these where they should just shoot the little farker and save us all a lot of money.

Kareeshus
I once saw a homeless mother and teen son on a corner holding their "we need food" signs. I offered to buy them a meal and before I could even finish telling them I would, I was slathered with a story of how they needed money instead.

But I refused to give it to them.

They continued. I pointed out that their sign read "food" and not "money."

"Look, if you really need food, I'm offering," I said. They walked away.

Huh. Somehow I doubt they were actually "homeless."

On the other end of the spectrum, there was this homeless man who would hang around at the AM/PM near my former job where I did maintentance.

I would see him often and buy him a little something whenever I went for coffee. He appreciated the small token. At least from me.

Then there was the time a well-dressed woman tried to give him something. He refused and told them to "fark off," and had a few other choice words for her.

Weird.

stoj

mental illness? Like the in the article?

kasarul

The VAST MAJORITY of homeless assistance in this country is run by churches for no profit. If you want to arbitrarily hate religion for some reason, at least attempt to be rational about it.

BESURETODRINKYOUROVALTINE

On the way to work each day in Philly I see three types of homeless people: 1) Screaming lunatics 2) murmuring lunatics and 3) white kids with dogs. I only see the third type in the summertime. In fact, that's proof that most homeless are crazy -- sane people would move to Cali or Florida in the winter.

I don't give money to any of them. Come to think of it, the ones with real mental problems don't seem to be able to get it together to even beg. (I also see a lot of scam artists -- healthy, mentally aware people that come up with interesting stories as a way of getting your pocket change. Today someone asked me if I would give five dollars to pay his copay. Of course, the same guy last week tried to get five dollars from me to take a bus trip. )

It's the doctors fault! Back surgery is often unnecessary. Most regular MD doctors don't know jack shiat about back problems.

Find a good chiropractor. Yes there are quacks but there are also some very good ones. I find sports chiropractors (especially if they have their MD) usually pretty good.

She never would have had all those back problems if she didn't have back surgery. I mean, all she did was strain her back while moving something, that's a minor injury compared to what some people get in accidents. Body builders injure their back all the time doing the same thing and it's rarely debilitating.

Well that and she sounds like she has some major mental issues considering she refused help from her family. Let see, live on the street or live in "cold" Chicago... pffft. Sounds like she wanted to be homeless.

rritterson - it's nice that a memorial was erected on Telegraph, but that wasn't where she was killed. Telegraph is a busy pedestrian thoroughfare pretty much 24/7, non-Berkeleyan farkers, where passers-by would likely have been armed. But she was killed a mile and a half from there, four blocks south of where I live, on a block of *California St.* that doesn't see much foot traffic even during the day. There's the thrift store (with free parking) where she slept / was killed, a Finnish / Korean church (behind a big parking lot) around the corner, a drive-in video store, a teensy (park in rear) shoe repair, a Thai (park and shop) supermarket, and a stealth brothel a block and a half away. And all of those places close at 9pm.

No one was around to see what these cowards did, at one in the morning on a quiet city (side) street. It's all the more tragic for that, and for the fact that people were doing everything they could to help this woman who helped others.

We're not at the top of the gun-ownership demographics here, but neither are we apathetic. Most of us are only too happy to get our hands dirty. Hell, I'd have broken a nail.

I only read the first few comments, but to that guy that praised a cold blooded, pointless murder and praised god in the same sentence. I hope you rot.

Sad story all 'round, for the old lady of course, but how bout those two F***ed up boys that will be released into society some day. Damaged goods.

Don't take all the compassionate posts too strong - use your judgement.

What about the gypsies who who purposely disfigure children to evoke more sympathy?

Stoj - Mentally ill people are often unable to stick in one place for long. They may be well educated and even come from a very comfortable background, but they see things that aren't there, believe in conspiracies and generally live in a world of fear and paranoia. I had a girlfriend like this - a former TV/movie actress and from a wealthy background. While we were together she was mostly ok but during our last year she completely broke down (the meds kept changing as they lost effectiveness) and nearly burned down my house in the fear of people stalking her for her ideas. She's very much like this woman who was killed - generous to a fault - but occasionally just goes off the deepend and no matter what, she knows she won't last in any one place for long.

I read till the line about her falling off a monkey bars...

/Remove them all.
//We must prevent this!

I come upwith a lot of spare food because of my hobby: I scavenge empty cigarette packs and turn them in for free prizes (I'm very good at it, glommed $5,000 worth of loot last year).

Whenever I find discarded sandwiches at the Circle K, perfectly edible but past the expiration date, I take them to the nearest street-corner beggar I can find, saying: "Here ya go, feller! Take all you want, and be sure to share with your friends!" Then I hand him about $100 worth of free sandwiches.

Man alive! You wouldn't BELIEVE the responses I get! I've been called everything but a white boy.

The only one I respect is one whose sign says: HOPELESS DRUNK, NEED MONEY FOR BEER.

Sorry if I sound like a heartless wench, but the homeless situation in berkeley is horrible - they've taken over public parks (people's park, esp.) making them unusable to the general public, a hazmat situation and just downright dangerous. Of course, the vocal liberal powers-that-be defend them at every turn; the neighbors and permanent (nonstudent) residents can't stand them.

They're an absolute blight - most appear to be able-bodied young males that don't feel the need to get a real job, as begging, stealing recyclables, and collecting whatever public assistance available to them is just plain easier - coupled w/ an city administration that allows them to do whatever they want, wherever they want to do it, makes the situation abomidable.

Sorry about the lady, but, I'm sure this won't be an isolated incident.

I wish we could send the guys who killed her to Iraq...I have some Devil Dogs who would love to "explain" being a good citizen to them.

Unfortunately, these 2 jackasses won't make it back to America to practice it.....

*sigh* Here is the thing. The 2 who did the crime should be beaten...I don't know punished in some way.
I have fought and struggled for everything I have. I felt Ok at one point. This is a crappy world. Survival of the Fittest and all. And give people $$ of Food? NO i don't do that any more. I give to the shelters and help out at them when I can. Where I live if you buy someone food or such you get labled. They know you are an easy traget. Also remember everyone who asks for a handout may not be an actual homeless person.

//hell with spelling.
///

To summarize:

1. When you give handouts to the homeless, you are enabling them, not helping them.
2. When you give to the shelters, you are helping them to survive, not contributing to their illnesses.
3. Mental illness and addiction are the primary reasons for homelessness.


The media, the advocacy groups, and the government could help the homeless by starting an honest debate about the causes of it, instead they keep spewing out the exact same lies and half truths about the causes. The end result is that nothing is being done.

I find it interesting that so many people have so many different (and contradictory) reasons to belittle the homeless and/or the homeless problem.

RockIsDead
Maybe if she was a bit more focused on herself she could have gotten off the street. Goody-two-shoes as a cover for being a loser.
Or maybe she had no way of fitting into our society, she was clearly mentally ill and had no way of becoming a "winner".

bildo
The safety net works. If people want off the street, then they can be off the street in a matter of days, not weeks.
From lizerd's post "you would be surprised how quickly you forget what it was like to live like a 'normal' person and how quickly you can give up hope." Says it better than I ever could.

easypray
I think she has got to be accountable for her position ... being homeless according to this article seems to be in her case - a bit of a choice.
So this is a choice you have to struggle over? Because, it's not something I struggle over. I am quite certain that in my present physical/mental condition I will avoid going homeless. I can't imagine the changes that would need to come over me for me to change that much. Since I'm guessing you can't either... maybe you should avoid judgement.

stoj
The lady had a few chances to improve her situation. Why she didn't take them is beyond me.
Did you just skip the entire sections talking about her mental illness?

farkoholic

a hazmat situation who appear to be able-bodied young males that don't feel the need to get a real job, as begging, stealing recyclables, and collecting whatever public assistance available to them is just plain easier.
You might look at your own words . You have no idea what goes on in the minds of those people. Why don't you go help at some soup kitchens or shelters, get to know a number of these people, then come back and say the same thing. I think your story would be different. And do you really feel like life is easier for them than it is for you?

Hmm. Prodigious chance of latent frustration-induced sociopathy beyond organic trauma. Dependence-seeking behavior appears to be more of a coping mechanism than an out right survival strategy. Casualty of logocentric norms of society and failure to heed rituals of hierarchy in 'organic' social network formation.

Conclusion: Replacements are abundant.

Helldonkey:

arell Maurice Johnson - Young Republican of the Month. That's how real men clean up the streets in the hippyland of Berkley.



what can I say,, you are either being snide or you're just a cock.

Godamn...what a sad story. I hope they farking fry this punkass!

As a recent college grad (I graduated this past saturday), This is even more depressing.

MediaAreAllHacks:

I find it interesting that so many people have so many different (and contradictory) reasons to belittle the homeless and/or the homeless problem.

Yeah I liken it to the "High Horse" syndrome. It's so easy for people to judge because they "would never get themeselves in that situation". They have no idea what some of these poor people go through and no comprehension of what the impact is from the lack of funding to help the homeless.
It's a Reagan legacy from the 80s, when he slashed funding for mental health for the homeless.
Makes me sick to hear people be so judgemental.

I was pretty far from judgemental - just saying that although I am sad for the way her life ended - I dont think you can paint her as a saint she had opportunity to get help and for whatever chose not to. My beef wasnt with her but rather with the notion that this might just "happen" to anyone moving a desk.

I am pretty sure her situation is a bit more complicated than that.

easypray: was pretty far from judgemental

I think she has got to be accountable for her position ... being homeless according to this article seems to be in her case - a bit of a choice.

easypray: was pretty far from judgemental

Come again??

"kasarul

The VAST MAJORITY of homeless assistance in this country is run by churches for no profit. If you want to arbitrarily hate religion for some reason, at least attempt to be rational about it."

I never stated I hated religion. I only stated that organized religion in America has failed at eliminating the homeless problem. In fact, it has failed at keeping it from increasing.

Perhaps the Vatican can sell off some of it's property to lend a hand?

I'm farking crazy, I wonder if this is how I'll end up...

No, I'll just self-delete before I wind up on the streets. Death is better than many a life.

Yeah, it's sad that so many people here are entirely clueless about mental health issues.

We need more education to bring attention to mental health issues and more funding to help those who are mentally unwell.

Head trauma, brain injury, imbalance of chermicals in the brain, genetic predisposition... all kinds of things can lead to mental illness.

And it's NOT the person's fault. They (at their worst) become totally different people, and otherwise kind, caring, generous and hard working people just freak out. Some hear voices, others are convinced of paranoid conspiracies, as someone mentioned earlier. Some just hallucinate like a permanent acid trip, with few moments of lucidity.

These people need help, caring, compassion and love, not scorn, ridicule and prejudgment by all of you who feel the need to belittle those less fortunate and blame the victim.

I'm not saying all homeless people are mentally ill. I'm sure there are plenty of scam artists out there who realized they could make more money by scamming and begging than they would at a real job (I mean, it goes back as far as the days of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, who wrote a Sherlock Holmes story about an otherwise well-educated man who lives an alternate identity as a beggar because it makes so much filthy lucre). But that's not excuse to condemn all homeless as being lazy degenerates.

There are many who ended up on the streets because of child abuse at home, or because they got kicked out of the house because they got knocked up, who got hooked on drugs and alcohol, who were clinically depressed and just left one day and never went back. Bad things that happen to people can cause mental illness in otherwise totally sane and healthy people. Some homeless people are claustrophobic and can't live in enclosed spaces like a building, because something bad happened to them when they were at home that they simply cannot be inside four walls for too long.

And people dehumanize the homeless, avoid them, treat them like social pariahs, act like they don't exist, don't look them in the eye, won't stop to chat - all these things will only exacerbate their illness, not make them better.

If you really want to help the homeless, go and chat with them a while. Listen to their stories, see what they have to say. See how the other half live.

Sure, some homeless people are scary, whether because they are mentally ill or because they've just become bitter, twisted people because of the harsh treatment they've received from society at large. But I'm not talking about the guy who, when you honestly tell him you have no change on you, starts insulting you and swearing at you and making threatening gestures because he thinks you're lying because you don't want to give him money. I'm not talking about the scam artists who are just scamming to buy booze or drugs.

I'm talking about the genuinely nice and friendly people who, for whatever reason, ended up on the streets and are having difficulty getting out.

Otherwise, you're no better than Patrick Bateman (of American Psycho), who jokes that the homeless guy ended up on the streets due to "insider trading". And then he kills him after taunting him with the hope of receiving money.

People say: that's just a book by Bret Easton Ellis, that doesn't really happen.

Except, as you can see from this article: it does, and more often than you think.

NightWulf:

Where's the outrage? If it was two white guys that stomped the head in of a homeless black woman, i'm sure their heads would be on pikes by now.

Actually, a black guy was just caught on tape punching a lady in D.C. about 2 weeks ago. A very big deal was made of it and the guy was caught very quickly.

I bet, though, the response was likely because the video showed a rather brutal beating.

Interestingly, a policeman was hit in Georgetown 2 or 3 days ago. It is a very busy intersection. I heard that traffic was stopped for 4 hours to do studies. It was on the news alot the next few days. The guy wasn't even killed. I don't know, but I remarked to others that if it had been a black, african immigrant, or homeless, that traffic would not have been stopped as long, even if the person had been killed. I really really hope I am wrong on that but I have a hunch I'm not.

MediaAreAllHacks:

From lizerd's post "you would be surprised how quickly you forget what it was like to live like a 'normal' person and how quickly you can give up hope." Says it better than I ever could.

The reasons for their mental illness are irrelevant (i don't buy the "they're mentally ill because they are homeless" line). If they are mentally incapable of taking care of themselves, then that is the problem. Instead of talking about compassion and giving them a few bucks to get high with, press lawmakers to create permanent places for them to get treatment and GET THEM OFF THE STREET, forcibly if necessary.

smeegle:

It's a Reagan legacy from the 80s, when he slashed funding for mental health for the homeless.

1. It's a state and local issue, not a Federal one. Reagan handled it poorly, but the US government is the LAST entity that needs to be in the homeless business.

2. The closing of state mental institutions in the 80's was a "progressive" idea, not a Conservative one.

Makes me sick to hear people be so judgemental.

Meanwhile you will judge everyone on this board that doesn't agree with you 100%. (There are very few people that have been negatively judgemental on this thread)

Meanwhile, we are talking about mental illness and how best to address the real causes of homelessness.

Cardinal:

And the vaunted "safety net" only works for you if you don't need it. Like on fark.

That's not true. Even those who don't want the help get fed, and clothed, and have a place to sleep if they want it.
The current safety net works. The problem is that most of the homeless don't want it. They just want the handout so they can get high.

Bildo
(i don't buy the "they're mentally ill because they are homeless" line)
Why don't you buy it? What experience do you have that makes you qualified to make such a judgement (over someone who experienced it and gave his/her opinion).

for what it's worth, I don't believe that being homeless makes a person mentally ill, I believe we're all mentally ill to start with, being homeless just exacerbates whatever tendencies we already have.


I'm very unsure of this idea we have of institutionalizing everyone who can't take care of themselves. What the gov't is for is to basically provide basic services and to ensure that people's lives are the best we can manage. I'm not talking about people who are a danger to others or an imminent danger to themselves, but just the average mentally ill homeless person. Perhaps said person goes absolutely bonkers whenever they have walls around them and feel a cloying claustrophobia. Are we making their lives better by locking them up? Are we making the regular population's lives better? Or are we just doing this because we don't like looking at them, because it reminds us of our failings as a society?

Certainly I believe that the option should be available, and I suppose I believe family should have the right to seek treatment for a person (someone has to try to make that decision as to what is best for the person), but to arbitrarily lock them up?

I think it's a dangerous path.

I cant believe there are people arrogant enough to be judgement asshats while accusing others of being judgemental.

I made a serious point that perhaps some of this womans situation is self induced - and gave strong examples of that from the article (refusing help from family and loved ones etc) and thats judgemental?

Sorry smeegle you've convinced me this woman ENTIRE story is simply that she hurt her back, got homeless and then was murdered ....nothing more complex here - smeegle says so.

havent I been told.

I guess the whole sum of someone's life is just out of their control entirely - no room for any self responsibility its all regans fault and mental illness.

Question: if you have a mental illness that can be treated - and while you are treated you make a concious decision to not take your meds - any self responsibility in that?

There are lots of things and people to feel sorry for, but suggesting that maybe a part of her tale has something to do with her own choices is a pretty logical statement not one of judgement.

My point was simply there are far worse tales of people on the streets who didnt have any chance to get out - she did and chose not to take it - she didnt deserve to die for making that choice, but please - she has to take SOME responisbility for how she lives - is that such a crazy notion?

/whats next smeegle you're going to tell me the Nazi's once thought as i did ...

farkaholic
They're an absolute blight - most appear to be able-bodied young males that don't feel the need to get a real job, as begging, stealing recyclables, and collecting whatever public assistance available to them is just plain easier

read that again. do you really believe that? it's easier?
wow.

MediaAreAllHacks:

"Why don't you buy it? What experience do you have that makes you qualified to make such a judgement (over someone who experienced it and gave his/her opinion)."

I'm saying that if you're incapable of caring for yourself then you are already mentally ill. Trying to claim that homelessness causes mental illness, instead of the other way around, just isn't a very realistic assessment.

"for what it's worth, I don't believe that being homeless makes a person mentally ill, I believe we're all mentally ill to start with, being homeless just exacerbates whatever tendencies we already have."

There is a huge difference having "issues" and being mentally ill. You're trying to defend the status quo, that things other than addiction and mental illness cause homelessness. The facts don't support you.

"I'm very unsure of this idea we have of institutionalizing everyone who can't take care of themselves. What the gov't is for is to basically provide basic services and to ensure that people's lives are the best we can manage. I'm not talking about people who are a danger to others or an imminent danger to themselves, but just the average mentally ill homeless person."

So you're saying that we should just keep feeding their addictions and let them keep living on the streets, defecating on the sidewalks, dying in the cold, and panhandling? Not exactly kind and compassionate are you?

There are several reasons why we have an obligation to get them off the streets:

1. If a person is mentally incapable of taking care of themselves, they are a danger to themselves, if not others.

2. The homeless are a drain on society. They cost money without adding anything to the system.

3. In areas where there are a large number of homeless, they tend to restrain economic redevelopment and growth.

4. Homeless on homeless crime and violence take police resources away from areas where it is needed.

5. There is so much charity and government dollars that already goes into helping the homeless stay homeless, why not use that money to actually do something for them? They sure as hell won't get better living on the street.

There should be something for every political orientation up there.

"Perhaps said person goes absolutely bonkers whenever they have walls around them and feel a cloying claustrophobia. Are we making their lives better by locking them up?"

Hell yes!!! Are you daft? Do you really think that living on the streets is better than claustrophobia?

"Are we making the regular population's lives better? Or are we just doing this because we don't like looking at them, because it reminds us of our failings as a society?"

We are failing as a society by leaving them on the street. You seem to want to leave them there to perpetuate a perceived guilt trip.

"Certainly I believe that the option should be available, and I suppose I believe family should have the right to seek treatment for a person (someone has to try to make that decision as to what is best for the person), but to arbitrarily lock them up?"

Arbitrarily? No. Doctors could diagnose their condition, but lets face it, living on the street should not ever be perceived as ok. If someone is unable to care for themselves, they should be placed in an institution where they can receive treatment.

I have always been amazed that some people (you) think you should perpetuate a problem just to prove how bad we are as a society.

easypray, sometimes those meds just stop working (probably because the body develops tolerance to it.

It's true that if you voluntarily choose to stop taking the meds, you're making that conscious decision. But if the meds stop working on their own, then they quickly spiral back down into the depths of whatever psychiatric hell they were in before.

And in that state, although they may appear alert, conscious, responsive and relatively coherent, they see everything through a filter of fear, paranoia, anxiety, etc. (depending on whether it be schizophrenia, multiple personality disorder, clinical depression, etc.).

Borderline Personality Disorder is pretty tough - not because it's necessarily that much harder to treat, but it's much harder to diagnose and there's no cure as yet. And you have to take a huge regimen of a varied cocktail of drugs every day, and it gets expensive and each drug has sideeffects.

It's not surprising if people are so fatigued that they forget to take their meds the night before, wake up the next day and they're already mentally unwell.

But they think they're not, and insist they're not, and so refuse to take their meds.

But that doesn't mean that they necessarily realize what they're actually doing, because although for the most part even mentally ill people, as long as it's not too severe, are pretty logical. They understand concepts like cause and effect, logic and reasoning, etc.

But they're like robots in the sense that for all that they may be logical, if their first premise is wrong, then no matter how logical all their following thought is, the conclusions they come to turn out to be totally unrelated to reality.

If you're mentally ill, you'll believe you aren't, and thus would feel no need to take meds. If you have paranoid episodes, you may even feel that the people telling you to take your meds are actually poisoning you or tricking you somehow, and you'll just become more paranoid, anxious and suspicious, and push everyone you love away.

It's those times with those people where they need family love and understand, caring and compassion the most...

... and unfortunately, for the most part, what these people receive instead are scorn and derision, being written off and ignored, forgotten and blamed for their own condition.

And in some extreme cases, like this one... they get the shiat kicked out of them, and they die.

Cold.

Alone.

On the streets.

Hungry.

No shelter.

Tired.

Depressed.

No friends.

No family.

No significant other.

No job.

No prospects.

No money.

No life.

No hope.

Bildo
I'm saying that if you're incapable of caring for yourself then you are already mentally ill. Trying to claim that homelessness causes mental illness, instead of the other way around, just isn't a very realistic assessment.
What sources do you have to be claiming it's not realistic? Or what expertise do you have?

There is a huge difference having "issues" and being mentally ill. You're trying to defend the status quo, that things other than addiction and mental illness cause homelessness. The facts don't support you.
I believe that you are incorrect, I believe having issues is just a little earlier along the spectrum than the line we call mental illness. You haven't proved in the least that facts support you. What we know (based on your facts) are that 70% of the people on the street are mentally ill. We don't know whether they were before they got there or if they developed it after.

So you're saying that we should just keep feeding their addictions and let them keep living on the streets, defecating on the sidewalks, dying in the cold, and panhandling? Not exactly kind and compassionate are you?
No, I probably didn't explain well enough that I think that if we chose that route, we should be doing our best to help them while they live on the street. I also said "I'm very unsure," in other words, I haven't made up my mind because I'm not convinced what is best for them.

There are several reasons why we have an obligation to get them off the streets:
Of those reasons, 4 are all about money, and 1 is about their perceived safety.

Do you really think that living on the streets is better than claustrophobia
I have a very mild case of fear of crowds. Being surrounded by a large group people causes me a lot of anxiety (i.e. shopping at Christmas time is almost beyond me). Frankly, if you gave me the choice between living where I was constantly in a large crowd (or even had to suffer it for most hours of the day) or living on the street, I might just choose the street. And that's a mild case.

We are failing as a society by leaving them on the street. You seem to want to leave them there to perpetuate a perceived guilt trip.
I absolutely want to try to help them. Even if I did decide that leaving them on the street was the best solution, that doesn't mean we can't help them out in other ways and try to get them to a point where their mental illness recedes to an acceptable level.

If someone is unable to care for themselves, they should be placed in an institution where they can receive treatment.
What criteria do you use for judging can they take care of themselves? The lady in question did fine until she was unable to pay the rent with her own money. Would it be cheaper as a society to make sure low-cost housing was available? (That by the way is where I put my energies through volunteer work for Habitat for Humanity).

I have always been amazed that some people (you) think you should perpetuate a problem just to prove how bad we are as a society.
You're putting words in my mouth. I want to do what is best for the people. You're so focused on your own solutions and your absolute correctness that you are convinced everyone else must have other reasons for what they are saying.

easypray
My point was simply there are far worse tales of people on the streets who didnt have any chance to get out - she did and chose not to take it - she didnt deserve to die for making that choice, but please - she has to take SOME responisbility for how she lives - is that such a crazy notion?
Don't you think that she chose not to take those outs, is in itself a sign of just how mentally ill she was because any sane person would have taken those outs? And then is it really fair to say it was a 'choice'?

I am all for personal responsibility, but I don't believe that becoming mentally ill is a choice.

MediaAreAllHacks:

I believe that you are incorrect, I believe having issues is just a little earlier along the spectrum than the line we call mental illness. You haven't proved in the least that facts support you.

You claim that we are ALL mentally ill. I think that my theories are a little more sound than yours.

What we know (based on your facts) are that 70% of the people on the street are mentally ill. We don't know whether they were before they got there or if they developed it after.

We also know that 90% are drug/alcohol addicts, are you assuming that they were straight as an arrow before they became homeless and just happened to start smoking crack after the fact?

No, I probably didn't explain well enough that I think that if we chose that route, we should be doing our best to help them while they live on the street. I also said "I'm very unsure," in other words, I haven't made up my mind because I'm not convinced what is best for them.

Leaving them on the street is not helping them at all. Any solution that involves letting them continue to sleep in gutters is not a solution; it is enablement or worse.

Of those reasons, 4 are all about money, and 1 is about their perceived safety.

Actually #s 1 & 5 are about the well being of the homeless, # 4 is about the safety and well being of society in general, and 2 & 3 are about money.

I have a very mild case of fear of crowds. Being surrounded by a large group people causes me a lot of anxiety (i.e. shopping at Christmas time is almost beyond me). Frankly, if you gave me the choice between living where I was constantly in a large crowd (or even had to suffer it for most hours of the day) or living on the street, I might just choose the street. And that's a mild case.

You should seriously seek help. If you would even consider choosing the street, you should seek help.

I absolutely want to try to help them. Even if I did decide that leaving them on the street was the best solution, that doesn't mean we can't help them out in other ways and try to get them to a point where their mental illness recedes to an acceptable level.

Again, if they are living on the street, then their mental illness is way past acceptable levels. They should be placed in an institution where they can get treatment for that illness.

What criteria do you use for judging can they take care of themselves? The lady in question did fine until she was unable to pay the rent with her own money.

Living in a gutter is a pretty sound line in the sand. If someone is homeless and is not trying to become non-homeless, then their problems are much more than economic.

Would it be cheaper as a society to make sure low-cost housing was available? (That by the way is where I put my energies through volunteer work for Habitat for Humanity).

Habitat for Humanity is a great organization, but it doesn't solve the problem. In the article, the woman was offered a place to stay and she declined. She was obviously a danger to herself.

How cruel could a person possibly be to advocate leaving mentally ill people to live in the streets?

You're putting words in my mouth. I want to do what is best for the people. You're so focused on your own solutions and your absolute correctness that you are convinced everyone else must have other reasons for what they are saying.

You are advocating leaving mentally ill people in the streets and you think for one second that ANYONE believes that you are looking out for the best interests of the homeless? You are not trying to help them in any way, you are just arguing to keep throwing money at them, yet leave them in their current condition. What other conclusion could anyone come to?

You want to leave it up to them to decide if they want to come in, but the mental illness that put them there is always going to keep them from making good choices. If society wants to help the homeless, we have to start looking at ideas that will get them off the streets.