When you see a beef ad, do you call it propaganda?

Depends. Are they presenting vegetarians in a bad light?

GM is generally okay. Some things should be restricted, but I won't bother with specifics, because they are all debatable.

The real key is to maintain a large, diverse gene pool in all species from which we can select genes (and as I imagine research will soon show us, collections of genes). Monocultures & lack of diversity are dangerous.

I get all my factual data from Penn and Teller.

A hint of sarcasm I suppose? Of course: any time you can't attack the point attack the source.

Okay, maybe I'm being a bit of an ass myself. It's good to be skeptical. And honestly it'd be terrible if someone got their factual data solely from Penn and Teller.

So, educate me: either tell me WHY the source isn't credible or tell me why organic food isn't bullshiat.

How Stuff Works has an interesting read on some of the down sides of organic foods:

http://home.howstuffworks.com/organic-food7.htm

On the other hand it makes some interesting points for organic foods as well:

http://home.howstuffworks.com/organic-food5.htm

I really like the biodiversity argument.

Penn & Teller were right- The fru-fru bastiches who complain about genetically-modified food don't have a single fact to back up their arguments. Most of them are clueless and only reacting to the "creepy concept" factor. But genetically-modified food has saved countless lives in many parts of the world. It had fed people who would otherwise be starving because their land can't support decent crops that are large enough and hardy enough to feed millions of people.

Hey, if you're a rich American and want to eat only "organic" foods, that's your right- But don't begrudge the newest techniques for growing and improving crops just because it creeps you out. There's no health factor involved, there's no lack of nutrients or mutated babies being born. We've been genetically altering food since the dawn of modern farming. We've been splicing together plants since before anyone here was born.

And no- There are no commercially-available vegetables or fruits with animal DNA inserted into them. There are no mouse-tomatoes. No lamb-onions. No firefly-melons. None of that happened. It's bogus rumors spread by lying, clueless activists that don't know enough to do a little research. They use scare tactics to push their political views. The only plants with animal DNA were used for research, and that's all; Mostly just to see if we could do it. No company would ever approve such a thing for sale without generations of testing.

Besides, unless your "organically grown" vegetables were carted to the market by a virgin driving a rickshaw, they've been exposed to a plethora of chemicals from the time they were packaged to the time they hit the shelves. They also get sprayed by your grocer, as well as waxed, treated, and "pimped up" to look good for sale.

What's ridiculous is people who live in the city who buy only "organically grown" foods, and NEVER BOTHER to grow their own foods. If you can't be bothered to do a little gardening yourself, then you deserve to have markets rip you off for foods that are essentially identical to the non-organically-grown varieties. If you don't know what you're doing, then you shouldn't be complaining about the business.

I grew up in farmland, on a multi-acre spread where we grew everything from potatoes to corn to peanuts. We had an orchard, we had a vineyard, and we had all the tame and wild fruit trees and bushes you could dream of. I know gardening- I don't like it or enjoy it, but I know it. I've tilled fields, harvested huge crops, and picked plants until my hands were raw (by the way; you do not want to be a cucumber picker. It sucks.) and I know where my food is coming from. I get pretty insulted when some faux-hippie who has never lived a day outside of a city tries to tell me about the "evils" of the modern farming industry.

Spend half your life on a farm, and THEN tell me the difference between your organically-grown tomatoes, and the ones I grew in my own garden.

The video was very funny, and very cute, but the driving force behind it is one of those groups that I don't particularly care for.

I can't believe no one thought Tofu D2 was funny! That and Chewbrocoli were the best.

Agent Orange: banned
DDT: banned

Do you know what's being put into your food, really? These additives are designed to kill bugs, weeds, and disease. That is all they are for. Do you think they know to stop at humans?

Ok, this site is biased, but most of the links are not.

WebMD

This was interesting:
Wednesday, April 13, 2005 WASHINGTON (AP) -- Anheuser-Busch Cos., the nation's No. 1 buyer of rice as well as its largest brewer, says it won't buy rice from Missouri if genetically-modified medicinal crops are allowed to be grown in the state. The St. Louis-based beer giant is the latest company to express concern over plans by Ventria Biosciences to grow 200 acres of rice engineered to produce human proteins capable of making medicine.

The company says it is concerned about possible contamination.



This is absolutely biased, but contains hundreds of news articles from all around the world.


Wow. There is just tons of info on all angles of this subject. I would much rather err on the side of caution, bottom line. My biggest complaint is it's price. But if more of us buy it, obviously the price will go down.

Support your local organic growers!

I do know that about 9/10 of the corn produced in the USA (where your cereal comes from) is hybrid. Why? Natural corn grows one ear per stalk, close to the ground and not enough kernels on it to make popcorn from, much less the amount of cereal we all eat. Hybrid corn produces up to four ears per stalk, big full ears with lots of corn and what does it hurt? Nothing. It's total economics. Feed the need.

"YOGURT?!?! I hate Yogurt!"

/mixing Star Wars spoofs

Check this out. I guess there was no appropriate character to include a loaf of bread, but Monsato's terminator seed was a bad, bad idea to try to sell. I'm glad it failed.

Watch the documentary The Corporation and listen to the opinion of an Indian green who can explain it better than I can.

"Ice-minus" strawberries that resist frost is an acceptable form of tinkering. There are many issues here.

In general, organically-grown food has taste, compared with the absurdly long, bland bananas that I used to buy at the supermarket.

Also, today is World Fair Trade Day, so buy some FT coffee, bananas, chocolate, or whatever else you can find. Those are usually organic, too.

Are the trace amount of pesticides on GE foods actually, significantly, bad for humans?

Regarding the WebMD article:

I've never heard of sustainable farming before, I'll have to look into it more.

Regarding the news articles:

Huh. A lot of those hundreds of news articles seem to be either be opinion polls or about political BS. I really don't care what greenpeace tells Brazil, they have an agenda (do you really think they're fighting for the truth?). Or what most Canadians (or Americans) think or believe about organic food. I want proof not statistics about what the public thinks.

As far as Anheuser-Busch goes they're probably just pulling out of GM food for PR reasons, nothing more. (It makes it seem like they actually care what they give their consumers).

saxofone, oh that was a great movie! I wish everyone could see it.



I remember hearing about a little experiment at some zoo. They gave the monkeys their choice of organic or non organic bananas. Not only did they choose the organic ones, they ate them whole, peel and all.

w00tw00t, we put these unnatural chemicals/pesticides/additives/hormones on/in our food. They permeate the water, air, soil, the animals, etc, and your body.

This is ok with you?

Why are those unnatural chemicals/pesticides/additives/hormones actually bad for me? Proove it.

Again I ask, are those marginal amounts of pesticides bad for me?

Additives are great, they preserve food and/or make it taste better.

Are hormones in food really bad? What proof is there? What, is it because little boys and girls are maturing faster these days? Hmmm, maybe things like social changes and better nutrition have something to do with that?

And what, by the way, classifies as unnatural? Something that's made by humans? Well than any farm organic or not is unnatural.

In the Penn & Teller series BULLshiat, they covered genetically engineered foods. Episode is called "Eat This!", and shows how rediculous the push for an organic movement is, and how beneficial a genetically modified food supply would be. I'd suggest looking for a torrent of the episode if you can, or better yet, pick up the DVD set.. deffinately worth owning!

saxofone is right about two things:

1. GM (and cross-bred) plants lose much of their taste and smell.

2. I haven't seen that movie, but from what the message seems to be, I wholeheartedly agree: the corporation must be stripped of many of its unintended powers. But that's for another day and another thread.

ZeroCorpse: What's ridiculous is people who live in the city who buy only "organically grown" foods, and NEVER BOTHER to grow their own foods.

Agreed. Just as ridiculous as people who live way outside the city who have a telephone and NEVER BOTHER to walk to their nearest neighbor to speak with them.

I get pretty insulted when some faux-hippie who has never lived a day outside of a city tries to tell me about the "evils" of the modern farming industry.

Man, you're preaching to the converted, Rev! I, too, get pretty insulted when some hillbilly who avoids the city because he is deathly afraid of catching AIDS from incidental contact with a fag tries to tell me that I deserve to be ripped-off by markets for foods that are essentially identical to the non-organically-grown varieties.

I don't really think that about you, ZeroCorpse. Just some sarcasm to make a point. It's almost two completely different worlds (farm life vs. city life). It seems that a lot of people don't understand this. You seem to be about as arrogant & proud of your farm upbringing as I am about my big city life. Many people who live in the city don't have a plot of land that they can grow a garden in. A damn large portion of them rent apartments or own condos, and so don't have any land at all. Many don't have the free time to. (IOW, being a farmer makes it easy to take the time to grow your own little garden, just as being a telecom guy makes it easy for me to take the time to repair my own phone line, fix my video & audio equipment, etc. I don't know a single auto mechanic that would even think about taking their personal vehicle to another mechanic to fix.)

There are a lot of things that I pay extra for that you would find ridiculous. Yes, I pay a little extra for organic foods. I also pay a little extra for hi-speed internet service (vs. dial-up), cab & bus fare (even though I own a car), and parking garages & lots. Hell, I even pay $120 a year just for the privilege to park my car on the street.

Different worlds...

I think some people are mixing up cross-breeding and genetic modification in this thread. Surely cross-breeding can, and has, been happening naturally for thousands of years. A form of natural selection that passes on desireable characteristics for each species, we simply cross-breed the characteristics we need from the organism.

I understand GM to be taking desireable genes out of one organism and implanting them into the genetic code of another.

I'd rather know what I'm eating, but there just isn't enough detail on labels.

Thats no space station, its a melo, a death melon !.

pretty funny.

I like the shopping cart/star destroyer in the beginning. Very good film!

Now THAT'S entertainment!

I can't believe this has degenerated into a debate about organics versus genetically-modified foods.

I felt a great disturbance in the Force...as if millions of
morans suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.

although, admittedly, a thread about a short film starring produce didn't have far to fall....

I stopped watching it when it compared foods "with massive amounts of pesticides" to irradiated food.

Irradiated food is completly safe unless you are a microorganism planning on doing harm.

This lil' film is just propaganda.

Regardless of the "propaganda" nature of that, I found it to be absolutely hilarious.

Chewbroccoli was the best.

that was great...

"Cuke I am your father."

"That's really not possible."

/cute
//liked tofu D2
///They call em tater

Normally I would say organic food is BS but after an elderly neighbor gave me some tomatoes from his garden as a way of thanking me for shoveling his driveway over the winter, I began to rethink the whole thing. The tomatoes looked ugly as can be and were misshapen, not anything I would buy in a store, but they tasted amazing! It was almost like a whole different species from the round red things I had known as tomatoes before that. It made me wonder what other fruits (and veggies) are out there that taste different than the tastes I am used to.

scratchnsmiff
I understand GM to be taking desireable genes out of one organism and implanting them into the genetic code of another.

Which is basically the same thing as cross-breeding, just done more efficiently. You don't have to rely on chance to dictate which genes will be taken on by the new hybrid. Either way, you're altering the genetic code.

Organic just tastes better. After drinking organic milk, regular milk tastes like chemical pisswater.

"...artificially low prices...?"

Uh, my head asplode cycle is ramping up on this one.

gayboynj:

Normally I would say organic food is BS but after an elderly neighbor gave me some tomatoes from his garden as a way of thanking me for shoveling his driveway over the winter, I began to rethink the whole thing. The tomatoes looked ugly as can be and were misshapen, not anything I would buy in a store, but they tasted amazing! It was almost like a whole different species from the round red things I had known as tomatoes before that. It made me wonder what other fruits (and veggies) are out there that taste different than the tastes I am used to.

The problem with most store bought tomatoes is they are picked when still very green, so they are not rotten by the time they get to market. It wasn't the genetics that made them better, but the vine ripening and lack of travel time.

fatlilbug, It's at, simply, http://www.themeatrix.com

What amazes me is that there are people who are OPPOSED to organic. Why? It's healthier, often tastes better (because the farmers aren't growing whatever will have the longest shelf life), is very productive, better for the farmland, etc.

I think it's people simply being reactionary. They've eaten "Florida Bullets" their whole lives and when someone comes along telling them "that isn't a tomato" they get uppity.

The problem, 07734, is that many organic farmers want to use the force of government to prevent other farmers from doing what they feel is best for their business. They engage in fear tactics, scaring consumers into voting for restrictions on GM, irradiation, and anything chemical knowing that most consumers are too uninformed to make an intelligent decision.

Like all such people who engage in political action, they believe that since they are sincere in their cause that means they can be insincere in their tactics.

lohphat

The real problem with GM foods are the patents.

Before, you bought seed, planted crops, harvested food, replanted with new seed.

With GM food, you have to *license* each year's seeds -- if any are found off-property or reused at another time, you're in violation of the terms of use and can be fined.

This is the insanity of GM food.
Thats true, but its not universal to GM crops either. Only some companies are using those tactics (particularly Monsanto)

As for the whole organic debate...unfortnuately, all the 'support' for it is anecodotal and subjective at best. Case in point (anecdotal): my grandparents have their own farm, about 70 acres, which they used to feed their 12 children (no joke). However, I'd have canned green beans, peas, etc, over most of the ones grandma grows anyday. (BTW: this farm is relatively close to the methods used to grow 'organic' foods: manure fertilizer and all. Not intentional, but mostly to save soem money_

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but, doesn't the term 'organic' mean 'contains carbon' in chemistry? And isn't all food we eat necessarily chemically organic anyway?
The major problem: There's little oversight; no hurdles they have to meet or inspections they have to endure to slap an 'organic' sticker on food.

To clarify, I'm not opposed to 'organic' food, but I find the stated reasons and cost of it extremely silly.

lohphat:

With GM food, you have to *license* each year's seeds -- if any are found off-property or reused at another time, you're in violation of the terms of use and can be fined.

Nah, farmers have been using hybrid seeds since the 50's. Buying seeds every year isn't really new.

mc_madness

Organic just tastes better. After drinking organic milk, regular milk tastes like chemical pisswater.

Personally, I've always found 'organic' milk to be a bit salty to the taste, so I usually go with store-bought. Then again, I'm not very fond of milk, either. (Usually I just keep some around for cooking purposes....and cookies.)

I thought it was pretty funny... but I didn't like the PSA they snuck in at the end. I think we got the message throughout the entire thing.

Loved the voice-overs.

I can't understand what your saying!!

w00tw00t

let's put aside any debate about org vs GMO for now.

You're assertion that producing more food will "feed the world" is a bit idealistic, no? We already have the capability to feed the world. Is it happening?

Now if you put two and two together, you may realize that a lot of the food production in poorer countries is being undercut by large argibusiness. Hence, farmers (the #1 industry) in poorer countries are losing work, making less money...to "buy" the food these companies are supposedly producing. It's a catch 22.

the argument is more economics, not food science...unfortunately, the org assoc focused more on the wrong argument...

Now as for GMO,

i'll recall a few examples where this is bad:

1. companies suing farmers because their patented "seed" mated with the neighbors fields (through the air), and viola, farmer got GMO super plants, and company claimed infringement.

2. GM'ing plants to be _more_ resistant to pesticides...i.e. so they can use more of it on fields w/o killing plant.

3. GM'ing plants so they don't reproduce...so the farmer _has_ to buy the special seeds from the company each year.

Remember folks, Corporations exist to make money, not feed the world. Like any technology, it can be used for good and bad.

From http://www.straightdope.com/columns/021213.html:
DDT is demonstrably effective at controlling the mosquitoes and other insects that transmit malaria and typhus. Thanks principally to DDT, in the years after World War II malaria was eradicated in the U.S. and sharply curtailed in many tropical countries. Venezuela recorded eight million cases of malaria in 1943; by 1958 that number was down to eight hundred. The World Health Organization estimates that DDT saved 50 to 100 million lives during this period, and that's just counting malaria prevention. In recent years, however, the disease has staged a comeback. Globally it quadrupled during the 1990s, and it's even reappeared sporadically in the United States. The resurgence of malaria is due to a variety of factors, including changes in land use and possibly climate, and some experts say the phasing out of DDT is one of them.

Fear and ignorance of science is no excuse for well-meaning hippies to wreak havoc halfway around the world.

I know lots of boho bozos who won't have a microwave oven in their apartment because of some vague notion they have that the "radiation" from the oven remains in their food and, I don't know, makes food tumors in their burritos. Science illiteracy is a big problem in this country.

Of course, African leaders who insist their citizens not use birth control because they are convinced imported condoms are laced with AIDS and other diseases are a whole other issue.

Unfortunately, science is complicated and most people are simple. Oh, well...

Corny.

That was a great parody.

Chewbroccolli ruled.