I'm not really surprised by these allegations. Is anyone?

FarkmeBlind said:

Ahem, Lao-shi Zang....several of my thread mates and myself have been wondering.

WHY AUGUST 2?

Hey.. I type slow, so sue me :P

See my post just above this one ;)

General Zang
I could be stone-cold wrong.

I hope you are... it's rather obvious I am anything but a supporter of the current administration but I don't see the draft as a foregone conclusion. Your support for an August draft date might have some legs. Especially if another attack occurs here.

Freak: You know what pisses me off the most?

Yup, that's fairly high on my list, too. Must be why I was one of those "asshat protesters who need jobs" AKA "millions of world citizens" who protested this in advance.

Funny, I went with my then-boss.

General Zang: See my post just above this one ;)

Sh|t, I forgot about troop training time delaying ramp-up. *sigh*

Thank you.

General Zang, ok listen close because I'm only gonna say this once.

The password is "Transformers, robots in disguise."

When the time comes, grab a bottle of ketchup and a cellphone and meet me in Times Square. You'll know when that 'time' is. I have horrible things that you must see, things that the world must see.

FarkmeBlind:

Yup, that's fairly high on my list, too. Must be why I was one of those "asshat protesters who need jobs" AKA "millions of world citizens" who protested this in advance.


Heh, remember all the emails going around back in 2002 poking fun at the "hippy pacifists" who were protesting the impending invasion of Iraq? Guess the hippies were right. Oh well, I guess it's justice of a sort that everywhere Bush goes (outside of the U.S.) he's greeted by hordes of protestors.

The cock is in the ass.

I repeat.

The cock is in the ass. Blue light, blue light, go go go!

This isn't any fun unless we get some Bush supporters in here. This is very inflammatory material here, and yet the flames are being smothered by all the agreement going on. Anyone have the number for DIA or Weavers house? Wake them up and tell them to log on.

Still not infinity? The darn "favorite guitar solo" thread got to infinity. Comon' let's see some American on American asshattery!

//it's what the politicians ( conservative, liberal, and moderate) want, so we won't notice them farking us so hard.

linewalker:

I am anything but a supporter of the current administration but I don't see the draft as a foregone conclusion.

Look at the numbers. Seriously, we are close to being overextended now, and recruiters are missing targets. They're talking now about bringing some 40,000 troops back from deployment in Europe/Asia. Why do this while we're "at war?"

Because we'll need that cushion of time to train new recruits by first sending over (somewhat more) seasoned European vets. If they had thought this through, the first batch of new recruits would be going through some shakedown training in Europe/Asia right now.

Freak: remember all the emails going around back in 2002 poking fun at the "hippy pacifists"

Yes, too bad our "We Were Right, You Douchebags" headline will NEVER be greenlit.

/not conspiracy theory, just truth
//we'll have to wait for the cover of Time
///will chuckle madly when it happens

no doubt Weaver and DIA have their lips wrapped tightly around their radios, waiting for another installment of the Rush Bat-Sh|t Crazy Propaganda Hour.

/do I get points for proper spelling of propaganda?
//can do Gandhi, too

zolividor: Still not infinity? The darn "favorite guitar solo" thread got to infinity.

Well, lets do music. Ever heard of MC Immortal Technique? (mp3 music file).

bbcrackmonkey [TotalFark]

General Zang, ok listen close because I'm only gonna say this once.

The password is "Transformers, robots in disguise."

When the time comes, grab a bottle of ketchup and a cellphone and meet me in Times Square. You'll know when that 'time' is. I have horrible things that you must see, things that the world must see.

I do not ask for whom the bell trolls, it trolls for me....

;)

But, seriously, here's a little thought experiment for you:

Zang's HappyFun Thought Experiment

1) Suppose you could travel back in time.

2) Suppose you were to travel back in time to the year 1995.

3) Suppose that once you were happily wandering around in 1995, that you logged on the new intarweb thingie, and told people that the United States would have a cabinet-level position called "Department of Homeland Security", and then tried to convince people that the United States would be launching "preemptive wars" against the active and vocal opposition of every 1995 member of NATO except for Britain, but that the new Eastern European NATO members pitched in to help in a preemptive invasion.

4) Suppose that when the intarweb people were done laughing and ridiculing your obvious paranoia and silliness, that you then went on to describe American citizens held without charges or trials for years, as well as foreign nationals grabbed off the streets in dozens of nations and sent to Guantanamo.

5) Suppose you topped it off by claiming that the religious right would turn out in droves to support a President in whose whitehouse a male prostitute had been allowed press passes under a psuedonym for two years, and that pictures of American soldiers torturing naked pyramids of people would be all over the internet.

You'd be ignored from them on as a whacko lunatic, because everybody in 1995 would KNOW that that was simply impossible, and completely ludicrous.

******Now, my friend, what wonders do you think 2015 holds for us?*****

/not a time traveler.
/um.. except forward. I do travel forward ;)

General Zang

Well, that makes sense.. assuming they want to retain control of congress and actually invade Iran enough to nuke downtown Seattle.. or wherever.

I actually wouldn't really be surprised I guess, but I farking hope there aren't that many sociopaths running things.

ugh.

Oh yeah, and bbcrackmonkey.. you suck at Fark.

FarkmeBlind

You know, you bring up a good point.

I, also, notice how the total far-right guys just sort of vanish when uber-horrible news that makes Bush look like shiat hits the web.... and the they all reappear once Fox News has let them know the correct spin.

Heh, the problem with their strategy is that the news is getting worse and worse by the day, and Fox is too busy giving us 8 hours of coverage and commentary on fingers in chili and updates on the Petersen case, and vegetables in comas in Florida, to actually give their followers the correct spin.

Heck, at some point, the far-right Farkers will be completely devoid of direction, as the everyday news from abroad becomes too bad for Fox to even want to report it... with spin or not.

Pity the poor rear guard like bbcrackmonkey, left to harass behind enemy lines in a futile holding effort ;)

General Zang:

You'd be ignored from them on as a whacko lunatic, because everybody in 1995 would KNOW that that was simply impossible, and completely ludicrous.

No, I would have made sure that theo other two explosive devices at the Federal Building in OKC actually went off, so there wouldn't be any crazy, whacko questions about how an ANFO bomb in a Ryder truck parked in front of the building managed to drop the whole facade, while doing nothing but breaking glass right across the street.
But that was 1995.
Times are different now. They're tougher, they're harder, and we've gotten even more stupid and inattentive.

/oh, look! 56 channels of American Gladiators!

dazinith:

2005-05-09 01:43:37 AM dazinith [TotalFark]

and a personal favorite:
"The Guardian - This war on terrorism is bogus"(Sorry, not l337 enough for poppy goodness, your gonna have to scroll up)


Everybody, read this. Well, that is if you have a doubt about what us "lefties" are saying. Excellent article, props to dazinith for making reference to it.

HowlingFrog: Well, lets do music. Ever heard of MC Immortal Technique? (mp3 music file).

Awesome artist.


Here's the actual song it's from (or vice versa?) The Cause Of Death.

bbcrackmonkey:

The cock is in the ass.

I repeat.

The cock is in the ass. Blue light, blue light, go go go!

Funny.

dazinith: The Guardian - This war on terrorism is bogus

That deserves another mention. Citations and all... pretty scary stuff.

ShutUpHippies
While the short-term payoff of having Saddam out of power is nice, the long term effect is a complete and absolute change of the dynamics in the middle-east. It'll take decades, but I foresee Iraq as a powerful democracy in a sea of dictatorships.

Yes, there is the possibility it MIGHT work out well. The problem is, the Middle East is an ethnic powder keg and Iraq might be the spark that plunges them all into war.

Iraq is basically home to three ethnic groups -- a minority that wants to be its own nation (and if it did, it would spark a civil war in Turkey for sure), a minority group that brutally repressed the other two, and a majority group that is relatively strongly fundamentalist and that has been long repressed.

The major obstacle in Iraq is that the people don't have any kind of national identity, their whole culture is based around dividing into these groups. The group identity is far stronger than a national identity.

If Iraq does fall into civil war, it could plunge the whole Middle East into war.

Is there potential for positive results? Sure, but there is also the potential to spark a horrible war. The whole stability of the new government depends on three ethnic groups who mutually hate each other and have spent decades trying to kill or brutally repress each other succeeding in cooperating.

I am not optimistic about Iraq's future because there is nothing to really bring the groups together. Their goals are often mutually conflicting, there is history and bad blood pulling them apart, there are daily terrorist attacks, and there is precious little common ground that they share.

For what it's worth to the folks talking about 9/11, I just read City in the Sky by James Glanz, which talks about the rise and fall of the WTC towers.

Basically, the book argues that, when the WTC was built, it was built to withstand the impact of a large commercial jet. Basically, what would happen is that the steel structure beams would create an arch of sorts which would, presumably, prevent the building from collapsing, and post 9/11 analysis shows that this did indeed happen. What didn't happen was dealing with the fire that was created by the jets. The towers falling because something hit them wasn't a problem, nor would the tops shear off. The fireproofing was inadequate, and the two main theories of collapse presented are that the floor joists on the directly hit floors buckled due to the heat from the fires (they were a new design as well), or the support columns in the core of the building collapsed, the core went down and the sides followed seconds later. Either way, it was found that the fireproofing was inadequate, and any time there was a fire in the WTC towers, it was difficult to put it out. In the case of the 9/11 attacks, the fire spread internally too quickly, and the stairwells were not built to stand on their own quite as well as they should have been. They presume that the sprinkler systems failed because the pipes were snapped.

If you're interested in the collapse of the WTC towers, I'd highly recommend this book. It does not politicize anything, it just gives the facts surrounding the building's collapse and decisions made during the planning phase which look pretty damning knowing what we know now.

General Zang, they're onto us, they've seen the thread! They know we know! We can't let them geu j0w-p4=018 8904[2t4eio ougbkcm c ?c;kjdrp=au4t

Everything is fine. I am going to go lay down for a few hours now. There is no such thing as Gay Military Porn. All supposed Gay Military Porn pictures in this thread are photoshops that I have made because I am a liar.

Without justification of the act, what classification is the act of the invasion of Iraq and the subsequent mass destruction, killing and torture? Its seems like pretty much a huge terrorist act to me.

If this is true, Bush and his entire administration ( and a whole score of generals, admirals and 'intelligence' chiefs ) will be all facing execution for High Treason, War Crimes and Terrorism on death row, there is no doubt of that.

Talk about the trial of the millenium.. though the Nuremburg trials covered atrocities that are larger in scope, the Bush terrorism is extraordinary in that it was committed in full view of the entire world and yet he nearly got away with it!

All the signs are there people, the cover-ups and the blustering when confronted with incontrovertable fact by the UN, the ignoring of Sec Council authority, folks being abducted off the streets and tortured to death by US forces with the full cognizance of the administration, suspected massacres and genocides in places like Faluja.. between Iraq and Afghanistan, Bush must have killed nearly a quarter million civilians by now.

How long does he deserve the benefit of the doubt for? Do you wait until hes killed a cool million and blown up a few more nations before starting to suspect that he isnt quite the hero of freedom, democracy and peace he likes to say he is?

MisterE: Dick Cheney would make a fine president

I'm pretty sure anything Bush would be implicated in would also involved ol' Dick, as well as most other cabinet members. Seems like this administration is thick as thieves.

/didn't RTFA

ryant123

Interesting link.

Of course, even if one were to grant that everything he shows is 100% accurate, then we're still left with many questions.

1) How was the plane able to even reach the pentagon, when airforce procedures that had been in place for over a decade pretty much dictated that any planes deviating from their courses be met by fighter jets.

...and then hundreds of other questions about ignored intelligence, specific FBI warnings about specific hijackers being ignored, and the FBI ebeing *denied* permission to get a search warant for musarrori's house and computer, after saying they suspected a plot to crash airplanes, ect.

Basically, a whole heck of a lot of established procedures were deliberately ignored or forgotten on 9/11... procedures which had always in the past been obeyed to the letter during 66 previouys incidents of airplanes straying from flight paths.

Combine that, with people deliberately ignoring specific intelligence, and actively preventing the FBI from investigating credible leads prior to 9/11, and with the public statements contained in the PNAC documents from YEARS before 9/11, and it's a little too much to swallow.

Either osama Bin Laden and his people were the luckiest darn bastards on earth, just HAPPENING to pick a day to attack when every single person in the command structure of the airforce on the Eastern Seaboard was incapable of following or enforcing S.O.P.'s dating back at least a decade.... or the fix was in.

And... even if we assume that it was all pure coincidence and just plain dumb luck for the Al Queda guys, it STILL doesn't answer all the questions about how the Bush administration could have TOLD several foreign governments as early as July that they were going into Afghanistan in October... how in the world could Bush and his folks have justified that, WITHOUT 9/11 to point to?

It all seems like just too much of a lucky break for Al Queda, and a lucky break for the PNAC folks who NEEDED that attack for any of their decade-old plans to actually be possible.

And... I suspect that another such "lucky" break is in the offing. We'll see.

If it happens a second time, AGAIN just in time to help the PNAC folks with the next phase of their publically-stated goals, are you gonna still buy the whole coincidence and dumb luck theories?

ryant123:

Explain just 2 things to me:

1. What *really* happened to flight 77 and its 64 passengers?

and

2. Who flew the remaining 3 planes if the pentagon was hit by a remote controlled military plane, or a missile, or a bunch of explosives

1.) No idea. Maybe in 200 feet of water in the Atlantic. I'm still trying to figure out how a B757 disappeared.

2.) Look into Dov Zakheim, and look into projects that he was involved with (beside the Project for a New American Century). The planes were flown remotely, and if there were 19 Arabs on board, they were as surprised as anyone when the things plunged into large buildings.
But there is no evidence that any Arabs were on board, the "rental car" that Atta left (in spite of the fact that he'd driven to Maine the night before, and flew back to Boston in the morning) and "hijacker passport" found unscathed on a sidewalk beneath the WTC notwithstanding.

HowlingFrog:

and if there were 19 Arabs on board, they were as surprised as anyone when the things plunged into large buildings.

What about the plane where the passengers made calls to their loved ones telling them the plane was hijacked?

Sum Dum Gai said:

Iraq is basically home to three ethnic groups -- a minority that wants to be its own nation (and if it did, it would spark a civil war in Turkey for sure), a minority group that brutally repressed the other two, and a majority group that is relatively strongly fundamentalist and that has been long repressed.

The major obstacle in Iraq is that the people don't have any kind of national identity, their whole culture is based around dividing into these groups. The group identity is far stronger than a national identity.

That's by design.

"Iraq", as a nation, is a fictional construct formed from several seperate pieces from the remnants of the Ottoman Empire.

The British deliberately formed Iraq's current boundaries to include rival local groups, so that the local rivalry could be exploited by the British Empire which controlled the place.

The easiest way, and simplest way to get a "stable Iraq" is to devide it into three seperate countries, each with it's own ethnic group.

Kurdistan for the Kurds, Iraq for the Sunnis, and "Basra-stan" for the Shiites. You'd instantly have three ethnically-stable, and internally rational states..... which is why it won't happen.

Niether the British nor the U.S. desire a "stable Iraq". They desire an obediant Iraq, which is not the same thing at all.

ryant123:

It's not a fancy movie with scary music by marylin manson, but it does have pictures of pieces from a Boeing 757 at the Pentagon.

Oh, they were probably placed there right? And then the unidentified guys who did it escaped through a wormhole on flight 77.

Actually, a brown van.
But you believe what you want.

nemoxnine said:

What about the plane where the passengers made calls to their loved ones telling them the plane was hijacked?

Sorta funny how the ONE plane that we KNOW had passengers on board, is the ONE plane that didn't reach its intended target.

Why weren't there any phone calls from the plane that hit the pentagon?

nemoxnine:

What about the plane where the passengers made calls to their loved ones telling them the plane was hijacked?

Voice morphing. Technology's been around awhile.

Please detail those calls.

"This is your son, Mark Bingham."
"Don't you believe me?"

How many of you have made or recieved sustained cellphone calls at 30,000 feet?
Not on a sat phone.

General Zang:

Sorta funny how the ONE plane that we KNOW had passengers on board, is the ONE plane that didn't reach its intended target.

But all the people on that plane still reportedly died, is that right? I honestly can't remember.

HowlingFrog:

How many of you have made or recieved sustained cellphone calls at 30,000 feet?
Not on a sat phone.

Good point.

------------------------

Not agreeing or disagreeing, guys, just playing devil's advocate, sorta.

General Zang:

The easiest way, and simplest way to get a "stable Iraq" is to devide it into three seperate countries, each with it's own ethnic group.


That's not that simple because of oil. You can't give one group all the oil fields while the other get desert.

Here is the map of oil fields in Iraq (in french, sorry, the brown stains are oil fields):



And here is the map of populations/religion:


As you can see, Kurds want the largest oil fields (in brown on the first map), Chiites would get some smaller fields, and sunnites would get nothing but desert...

nemoxnine:

But all the people on that plane still reportedly died, is that right? I honestly can't remember.

I honestly don't know.
There was an article posted to cincinatti.com on sept 11 of 01, claiming that United Airlines flight 93 had landed at Cleveland Hopkins. I wrote to Liz Foreman, the editor, asking wtf was up with that. A half hour after I sent my email to Liz, the story was pulled.
I mirrored it on our server.
The Flight 93 story is truly weird.
Google some photos of the crash site. Tiny, smoking crater; no debris. Debris was reportedly found in and around Indian Lake, several miles distant.
I don't know what happened there.

******Now, my friend, what wonders do you think 2015 holds for us?*****

That one is easy. Russia Nukes all the major cities in the United States, the US is engaged in a civil war, which will start *soon*. I could go on with that, but most people know this future already.

General Zang

Going to Afghanistan was easy to justify, the Taliban was in charge and no one was about to stand up for them. Plus people knew it was a training ground for rather unsavory types.

As for the fighters on 9/11? They could only be scrambled once a plane was off course and it was established it was not so for an emergency such as engine failure. And then you have to get the planes up, find the airliner and then get permission to fire. That all takes more than a few minutes. Just figuring out a plane in a messy air traffic pattern is off course when there's pandomonium can take a while. Nevermind figuring out what the deal is.

As for WTC 7, there's an old engineering concept, just because it hasn't happened before doesn't mean it can't happen. Buildings are only engineered to survive what engineers can envision and asess as reasonable. And it is not reasonable to assume several tons of debris falling with a lot of momentum upon a skyscraper. It is not reasonable to assume said skyscraper will be exposed to two larged scale close proximity seismic events in a place seismic events of large magnitude don't happen.

When WTC 1 and 2 went down it shook the ground more than a little. There were engineers worried if building foundations in the area would still be stable. Thousands upon thousands of tons of steel and concrete tumbling down could easily cause the ground to shake bad enough to loosen a building from the foundation or crack the foundation. And a small enclosed steadily fed fire can drive air temperatures high enough to soften steel, that is once it causes it to expand and put stress on local concrete. And concrete is not good with sheer or tensile stress, add in torque? Not pretty.

It may sound impossible for a fire in a small space to bring down a skyscraper, but if the skyscraper has a weekend frame already, it's hardly implaussible. Grain elevator explosions can wipe out not just the grain elevator but attached silos. The explosions are due to grain dust in the air being ignited. How much grain dust? You could easily carry it in a bag one handed. It's just a few pounds. Once it goes off any grain dust the initial fire flash comes into contact with will also go up. A total of 50 lbs of grain dust can do a large amount of damage. Bring that up to 200 lbs? And it's cataclysmic. Structures that look like they could survive all sorts of things get turned to rubble.

I'm reminded of a case of a building collapse in Florida. The building collapsed on account of rebar on one floor slab being set an inch too low. Put too much sheer stress on the concrete and it gave out. Also another case of a building collapsing because out of hundreds of bolts a handful were the wrong size. How many is a handful? Six to eight. While they are impressive, concrete and steel structures, like any load bearing structures, don't need much to cause them to fail. And there's plenty of occurances of failures due to the most odd of causes.

Oldiron_79:

Psst, little message to the Lefties out there, you are making ass hats out of yourselves with 9/11 conspiracies like alot of us on the right were doing when Clinton was in office with the OKC conspiracies...

Pssst, little messages to the myopic dumbasses living in lala land "everything is black and white" utopia out there. Some of us aren't lefties.
The Clinton administration covered up the truth about OKC.
And the Bush administration is covering up the truth about 9/11.

When are you knuckleheads gonna finally flush your brains, and realize that it ain't a partisan thing? It's an American thing.
Christ.

HowlingFrog

As soon as every conspiracy theorist shows up with a PE in structural engineering, a master's in history and a few other things? Then maybe we'll talk.

cargrrl82:

As for WTC 7, there's an old engineering concept, just because it hasn't happened before doesn't mean it can't happen. Buildings are only engineered to survive what engineers can envision and asess as reasonable. And it is not reasonable to assume several tons of debris falling with a lot of momentum upon a skyscraper.

And what are you claiming fell on the Soloman Building? The Tower(s)? Do look at where the buildings stood in relation to one another, and calculate distances. View the collapse of the Trade Center Towers, and note distances of expelled material. Put it together, and what do we have?

Nothing "fell on" WTC7. Fires were visible on two floors, and that wasn't until afternoon. What started those fires?
They hadn't been burning long, when the building collapsed. Roared down neatly into it's own footprint.
Please explain that. Without the "sesmic activity that didn't cause any other buildings or pedestrians to hit the pavement", or "wrong nuts and bolts in a building that just fell down because it was built by idiots" malarkey.

Come on, you're the engineer. Give us science.

About damn time - I love John Conyers

and this posting should take us to a symbol on the main page....