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(Boston Globe)   US needs to upgrade antiterrorism systems, will backup old ones on Circuit City floor model   (boston.com) divider line 130
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7413 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 May 2005 at 3:30 PM (9 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2005-05-08 04:20:06 PM  
I love it when the media points out all the weak spots in a national defense plan. Hey terrorists! Put down that pencil, we did your homework for you already!

It's a good thing I'm Canadian, my cloak of idealism and happy dreams will protect me from harm!
 
2005-05-08 04:20:30 PM  
nemoxnine:

The wars and rebuilding in Iraq and Afghanistan alone have cost you over $1,000 so far.


As any accountant can tell you, it's the recurring expense that gets you. Social Security and Medicare is the problem no matter how you slice it.
 
2005-05-08 04:20:40 PM  
Major Thomb

Why not end corporate entitlements in the forms of subsidies, tax loopholes and levies?
 
2005-05-08 04:21:09 PM  
I'm shocked to discover the Federal Government wasting money.

SHOCKED I SAY!
 
2005-05-08 04:22:10 PM  
The New York Times reported today.

he Times said


Next time they should save themselves some time and just reprint the Times article
 
2005-05-08 04:22:35 PM  
Naarjtie

It's not about the technical proficiency, no-ones suggesting that the French built hill forts out of cream cheese or something, it's about the political error of judgement.
 
2005-05-08 04:24:25 PM  
Major Thomb:

As any accountant can tell you, it's the recurring expense that gets you. Social Security and Medicare is the problem no matter how you slice it.

All I was pointing out was that zolividor said:

I'd happily trade the few hundred dollars of tax cut money in my pocket for an effective anti-terror policy, a lower deficit, and solvent social security.

But, in reality, our adventures in Iraq/Afghanistan have already cost him much more than that, without addressing the deficit problem, without fixing social security, and (arguably) without creating an effective anti-terror policy.
 
2005-05-08 04:24:29 PM  
Major Thomb

Come to think of it, legalizing pot or punishing pot offences with fines, rehab or community service would make a huge difference. But I guess you only care about cutting spending when the spending helps the poor.
 
2005-05-08 04:25:04 PM  
The Larch:

You do know that the United States brings in more money from Social Security and Medicare taxes than it spends on Social Secuirty and Medicare, right?


We have X tax revenue which are tied to GDP and Y expenses. All categories of expenses are decreasing compared to GDP except those two. What a particular tax is called and how it's spent doesn't change the bottom line.
 
2005-05-08 04:25:33 PM  
nemoxnine:

The wars and rebuilding in Iraq and Afghanistan alone have cost you over $1,000 so far.

And, if everything goes as expected, that will pay for itself for all of eternity. Seems like a fair investment.
 
2005-05-08 04:27:00 PM  
jvoight0205: if everything goes as expected

I'm generally not one to jump the gun, but what, so far, has gone as expected?

I suppose a valid answer to that would be "There were no expectations."
 
2005-05-08 04:27:22 PM  
The Maginot Line was unsuccesful because it was built to defend the border of Germany-France, but Germany was planning all along to bypass it and go through Belgium. Bad analogy.

"The World War II German invasion plan of 1940 (Sichelschnitt) was designed to deal with the Line. A decoy force sat opposite the Line while a second Army Group cut through the Low Countries of Belgium and the Netherlands, as well as through the Ardennes Forest which lay north of the main French defences. Thus the Germans were able to avoid assaulting the Maginot Line directly" [wikipedia]
 
2005-05-08 04:31:37 PM  
nemoxnine: so far, has gone as expected?

Two new democratically elected gubments?

If the trend continues, peace in the middle east.
 
2005-05-08 04:33:03 PM  
jvoight0205: Two new democratically elected gubments?

Libya, an unexpected result. Well, maybe somebody expected it to go down like that. I didn't.
 
2005-05-08 04:34:38 PM  
REICHWINGERS ARE SCARED.
 
2005-05-08 04:35:47 PM  
nemoxnine:

the economy and tax receipts created the budget surplus in the late 1990's, not any administration policies. I could've been president then and generated those kind of results. And my scandals wouldn't have been discovered. I'm a much sneakier bastard.
 
2005-05-08 04:37:22 PM  
nemoxnine:

But, in reality, our adventures in Iraq/Afghanistan have already cost him much more than that, without addressing the deficit problem, without fixing social security, and (arguably) without creating an effective anti-terror policy.


My point was you can't account for expenses like that especially in something as big as the government. You have to project total cost over at least a decade, probably two, and divide the total cost by that many years to figure the out of pocket expense per tax payer.
 
2005-05-08 04:38:51 PM  
bokutoe:

The Maginot Line was unsuccesful because it was built to defend the border of Germany-France, but Germany was planning all along to bypass it and go through Belgium. Bad analogy


No, it's perfect. Spending massive amounts of resources on defense alone doesn't work, because it's impossible to cover all the bases. The only thing that really works is to remove the threat.
 
2005-05-08 04:40:16 PM  
jvoight0205: If the trend continues, peace in the middle east.

The middle east has taken it in the ass from the west for a good few hundreds of years.

The progress you see now can be easily reversed by an uprising.

These uprisings brought Saddam and the Iranian mullas into power, both events were triggered by American interventions.

I wouldn't be patting each other on the backs just yet.
 
2005-05-08 04:41:57 PM  
jvoight0205:

Two new democratically elected gubments?

Suppose I stand corrected on that one.

If the trend continues, peace in the middle east.

So how and how soon will this bring us back $300 billion? You can't say it definetly will any more than I can say it definetly won't.

And "It will pay for itself for all of eternity"? I'm only here for another 80 years tops, and within my lifetime the US will be brought to task for its debts if they continue to increase at this pace. So unless the Middle East stops being a hole that we throw money into soon, it doesn't really matter to me.
 
2005-05-08 04:44:12 PM  
Half Man Half Biscuit:

The middle east has taken it in the ass from the west for a good few hundreds of years.

Taken it in the ass? It was a well-deserved ass-raping if you ask me. The whole friggin' region reeks of terrorism and oppression.

That's like saying that the store down the street that charges too much, closes too early, and is rude to its customers is 'taking it in the ass' because people don't shop there.

Behave like a child throwing a temper-tantrum, you should expect to be treated like a child throwing a temper-tantrum.

The people of the region deserve better than the farkwads they have. We're simply pushing the dominos we can reach.
 
2005-05-08 04:44:20 PM  
"Isn't this all getting a little expensive?"

"Why would we care? It's not like it's our money."


No big deal. We can always just whip up a "temporary" tax to help pay for the war effort!
 
2005-05-08 04:44:57 PM  
And, I said this in another tread, but it deserves repeating.

How is it that the personals chick *isn't* getting laid such that she needs a fark personals?
 
2005-05-08 04:45:26 PM  
Major Thomb:

My point was you can't account for expenses like that especially in something as big as the government. You have to project total cost over at least a decade, probably two, and divide the total cost by that many years to figure the out of pocket expense per tax payer.

Ok... this is how I imagine your math.

$300,000,000,000 / 297,000,000 citizens = $1010 / citizen

$1010 / 20 years = $50 per year.

Not too bad really. But let's see how it adds up.

$50 per year * 20 years = $1010 per citizen

And that's assuming we don't spend another penny over there.
 
2005-05-08 04:47:16 PM  
nemoxnine: $300 billion?

I could care less about the money if it keeps those asshats from putting weapons into the hands of terrorists.

I bought a lock for my house. It cost me $45. I am not expecting to see that $45 ever again; however, if it has stopped one person from walking into my house and walking out with my stuff, it has paid for itself.

Oh, and I'm actually doing really well under this administration. Did really well under the previous, too, but whatever.
 
2005-05-08 04:48:24 PM  
jvoight0205:

How is it that the personals chick *isn't* getting laid such that she needs a fark personals?

She's looking for all those Fark Millioniares who will see her and say "Oooh! I must have it. Nothing else will appease my yellow fever."
 
2005-05-08 04:48:56 PM  
jvoight0205: The whole friggin' region reeks of terrorism and oppression.

Sigh.....

300 years ago we called you terrorists, 70 odd years ago we called Ghandi a terrorist, 55 years ago we called Israel terrorists.

And you wouldn't want me to mention how much support the IRA had from Americans, would you?

Your bravado can all too easily be shrugged off by the middle east. And any gains we made will be lost in the waves of hatred that will be left.
 
2005-05-08 04:48:59 PM  
nemoxnine:

So unless the Middle East stops being a hole that we throw money into soon, it doesn't really matter to me.

You can throw money into the hole now, or you can leave it as a legacy that your successors can throw money into.

Seems rather short-sighted to delay.
 
2005-05-08 04:49:07 PM  
Naarjtie:

Although it has become notorious as a universal metaphor for bungling, the Line in fact was not the blunder it has been made out to be. In many ways it was a model of clever engineering and technological accomplishment.

That's France in a nutshell, really. They put a lot of effort and money into making something grand and elaborate, only to get screwed when someone less elegant spends 10 seconds coming up with a practical solution.
 
2005-05-08 04:50:39 PM  
nemoxnine:

Not too bad really. But let's see how it adds up.

$50 per year * 20 years = $1010 per citizen

And that's assuming we don't spend another penny over there.



You can't disconnect money with time like that. Your income is based on time so you have to do the same with expenses. Otherwise, I couldn't afford my house as it costs more than what I have in my savings account.
 
2005-05-08 04:52:54 PM  
jvoight0205: Oh, and I'm actually doing really well under this administration.

I'm glad you're doing really well under this administration, but keep in mind there are many who aren't.

Women who want their right to choose
Civilian casualities in Iraq
The lower classes who got proportionately less of the tax cuts

I don't want to get off topic, I just thought that statement you made was a little rude to those who aren't doing as well.
 
2005-05-08 04:55:44 PM  
Major Thomb:

You can't disconnect money with time like that. Your income is based on time so you have to do the same with expenses. Otherwise, I couldn't afford my house as it costs more than what I have in my savings account.

You're right in saying that it's not a significant amount of your yearly income.

But when you buy your house, whether you buy it all at once or through a mortgage, you're still paying the full price of it.

In fact, if you use the mortgage you're paying more, which is exactly what we will be doing because of interest on debt.
 
2005-05-08 04:56:21 PM  
Half Man Half Biscuit: lost in the waves of hatred that will be left.

They hate us because we stand their governments in corners like a child throwing a temper tantrum. They hate us becuase their governments oppress them and blame it on us. They hate us because, apparently, our economy is in the crapper, yet we haven't seemed to have noticed and continue to buy everything we can touch.

They will continue to hate us until they become like us. and, yes, I said it. They'll either become like us (not the U.S., us, the bigger version) or we will become like them, and I don't really see us changing to fundamentalists of any flavor. We have coups built-in to our election process. Every 4 years, it is guaranteed that the government will be democratically 'overthrown.' The only way they can do it is through violence *or* become like us. Seems like it's eventual either way. Might as well accelerate it and get the hating over with.
 
2005-05-08 04:57:10 PM  
Hey all...I was just kidding...I voted for Kerry...your responses directed personally to me are outstanding. Thanks for the laughs.

/Can't stand greedy bastards that voted for Bush, but don't have the balls to admit it
 
2005-05-08 05:00:11 PM  
jvoight0205

read the link one more time and figure out why it didn't work. it's fark's censor. you have to change "farked" to... well, you know.

i thought i posted the explaination, but i guess it didn't go through. maybe it will work as a link...

does not pop
 
2005-05-08 05:00:23 PM  
jvoight0205:

You can throw money into the hole now, or you can leave it as a legacy that your successors can throw money into.

Well if you have to spend moeny, you should spend it in the most effective way possible.

There are many here that would argue that we have not waged this war in a militarialy(sp) or monetarialy(sp) effective way.

Could it have been done better? I don't know, and neither do you. But we could have at least had an exit strategy.

I think we're too off topic at this point... just re-read the title of the thread :P

Feel free to make closing remarks
 
2005-05-08 05:00:30 PM  
jvoight0205: democratically 'overthrown.'

Off topic:
Diebold has done a pretty good job of making sure that doesn't happen
 
2005-05-08 05:00:55 PM  
nemoxnine:

Women who want their right to choose
Civilian casualities in Iraq
The lower classes who got proportionately less of the tax cuts



Women *do* have the right to choose.

Collateral damage in Iraq are minimized when the locals get fed up with roadside bombings and start tattling. Which, they are.

I lived the 'lower' class. I was enlisted. Been there, done that. G.I. Bill + fat college loan, I'm not doing so poorly anymore. Made some decisions that made a difference.

It breaks my heart to see poor kids in poor families. It does not break my heart to see poor adults perpetuating their own poor choices.

This *is* the land of opportunity. It is what you do with it.
 
2005-05-08 05:01:45 PM  
jvoight0205: They will continue to hate us until they become like us. and, yes, I said it.

Hmmm, sounds familiar.....



You havn't answered about the US being at the root cause of two of the dictatorships in the region. What's up BushBot, doesn't this fit your blinkered world view?
 
2005-05-08 05:04:01 PM  
bluenovaman: Diebold has done a pretty good job of making sure that doesn't happen

hahahahahah. your tinfoil hat needs maintenance.

I'm actually pretty suprised that the lottery people aren't involved with elections. I very seldom hear about abuses. Maybe they just do a better job of keeping it hushed.
 
2005-05-08 05:06:30 PM  
Half Man Half Biscuit:

You havn't answered about the US being at the root cause of two of the dictatorships in the region.

You mean the part where the UK divided portions of the region to guarantee civil wars?

Or the part where the UN fed Saddam money under the table in corrupt oil-for-food deals?

Oh, and I could care less if we kill their leaders. I'm not fond of them. But even better would be if the people had a choice to elect them out.

Convert them to Christianity? Heck, no, man. I'm athiest. But, to each his own.
 
2005-05-08 05:08:51 PM  
jvoight0205:

Women *do* have the right to choose.

This is true, but I would argue that when the leaders of the government are actively working to reverse that right you are not "doing really well".

Collateral damage in Iraq are minimized when the locals get fed up with roadside bombings and start tattling. Which, they are.

Collateral Damage is the name of a Schwarteznegger(sp) film. Civilian casualities are innocent people who have been killed in Iraq during the war. We may be trying to minimize it, but those who have died are not going to come back.

It breaks my heart to see poor kids in poor families. It does not break my heart to see poor adults perpetuating their own poor choices.

I'm not talking about people's ability to pull themselves out of the gutter, I'm talking about the rate at which people are taxed. That's great that you are an American success story, but I bet your parents would have loved to have some tax breaks when they were working to put food on the table.
 
2005-05-08 05:13:34 PM  
jvoight0205:

You mean the part where the UK divided portions of the region to guarantee civil wars?

Or the part where the UN fed Saddam money under the table in corrupt oil-for-food deals?




Both are irrelevant to the original question.
 
2005-05-08 05:13:45 PM  
jvoight0205:

You mean the part where the UK divided portions of the region to guarantee civil wars?

Zing!

Get it yet? Is the concept that farking aroung with the politics of a region like some druken salor has a tendancy to come around and bite you in the ass starting to sink in?

Hey, lets focus on who put Saddam into power, or who's support of the Shar of Iran was the catylst for the Iranian revolution (and don't mention Olly North, and the Iran-Contra scandal).

Democracy is fine, but it needs to come from within, not be imposed from outside. It didn't work well when we did it, it will not work when you do it. And it takes a decade or two to see the effects.
 
2005-05-08 05:15:20 PM  
jvoight0205: I'm actually pretty suprised that the lottery people aren't involved with elections. I very seldom hear about abuses. Maybe they just do a better job of keeping it hushed.

Maybe you're even more ill-informed than anyone thought. Here in Minnesota, two lottery directors have killed themselves, Vincint Foster style.
 
2005-05-08 05:18:27 PM  
Just imagine if all that money were used to wean us from Middle Eastern fossil fuels. We actually develop economical fuels other than those peddled to us by Texaco, Exxon, BP and Shell. While we suffer paying upwards of $3.00 or more a gallon for gas, these guys sit back and enjoy record quarterly earnings over and over and overalternative fuels would not only free us from the Middle East and render it almost irrelevant, the fat cats running the oil companies along with their political lackeys, who have enjoyed the succor of petrol dollars for years, would also be made much less relevant. With the west no longer needing Middle Eastern oil, we could easily extract ourselves from that part of the globe, just as most of them wish we would do now, and the terrorism exported from there would soon diminish to next to nothing. Of course it is the people sitting in the boardrooms of big oil, the automotive industry and their political minions that fear this scenario, and will never let it come to pass. The entire western issue boils down to oil and shareholder profit, nothing more nothing less. And by the way, I am a shareholder...nothing beats capitalism when it comes to making money.
 
2005-05-08 05:19:28 PM  
nemoxnine: actively working to reverse that right

Actively working to do what they feel is right is what we pay them to do. We also have a number of checks and balances to ensure that they can't act unilaterally. That's the republic in which we live.

but those who have died are not going to come back.
The Kurds like your argument.

parents would have loved to have some tax breaks

Sure, I'll bet they would have loved tax breaks. Maybe not at the expense of the services provided by the government. I'll bet they would have loved free puppies, too. But, not if they were gonna fark up the yard. I can heat your house for free for all time with some uranium under your bed. Maybe you'd find that the cost (free) isn't worth it after all.

As cliche as it sounds, freedom isn't free. You MP3 thieves seem to think the world is your purse. It isn't.
 
2005-05-08 05:20:36 PM  
The Larch: Vincint Foster style.

that the 'hey man nice shot' guy?

So, they keep it quieter than they should. Know why they did it? implicated in something?
 
2005-05-08 05:23:20 PM  
Half Man Half Biscuit
You havn't answered about the US being at the root cause of two of the dictatorships in the region. What's up BushBot, doesn't this fit your blinkered world view?


I am glad there are people like you online who understand foreign policy and international relations so well that you are able to make the assessment that what the US is doing and how it is wrong based on what you have seen in the media.

I think if the world allowed people like you, and not those who have had to undergo years of training and accumulate decades of experience to determine in what cases it is in the best interest of the country to ally itself with a nation, which there are fundamental differences country would be a safer and better place. I am sure there are no strategic factors involved and you know all the factors involved and are right in your condemnation of the administration, as surely you are on the frontlines of affairs and not going on hearsay that you pick up here and there.

I beg of you please move to Washington DC I think with you well informed worldview and great insight into problems you have a wonderful career ahead of you in the foreign service.
 
2005-05-08 05:24:37 PM  
Half Man Half Biscuit:

Democracy is fine, but it needs to come from within, not be imposed from outside. It didn't work well when we did it, it will not work when you do it. And it takes a decade or two to see the effects.

I agree 100%. The people of the region need to do something about their governments. Do *not* expect us to do business with leaders we don't like. Except when we refuse to do business with them, we're accused of starving their people. How long should we watch NK starve theirs? Hrmmm. Maybe we can watch them until the people overthrow their government for being nitwits. Or, maybe we can watch them until their dipstick leader does something to get himself vaporized. Is your solution to open trade?
 
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