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(Sky.com)   Rapist suggests marrying victim in an attempt to get a lighter sentence. Judge says, "Yeah, that could work, we'll ask her..."   (sky.com ) divider line
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38888 clicks; posted to Main » on 04 May 2005 at 3:35 PM (11 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



339 Comments     (+0 »)
 
 
2005-05-04 06:24:14 AM  
THIS IS SOME SICK shiat. And it pisses me off
 
2005-05-04 06:46:20 AM  
That is just sick. Really farking sick.
 
2005-05-04 07:36:30 AM  
"He should be hanged so that such an horrendous is not repeated with any other girl."

Works for me.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2005-05-04 11:19:30 AM  
In parts of the American South you can beat a statutory rape charge by marrying the girl and staying married until she turns 16. Road trip to Tennessee, anyone?
 
2005-05-04 11:20:17 AM  
WTF? Thats just wrong!
 
2005-05-04 11:40:57 AM  
Castration, it's the only way to be sure.

/kidding
//sort of
 
2005-05-04 11:44:48 AM  
[image from img.photobucket.com too old to be available]

It worked out for these two...

/why do I know this
//off to commit seppuku
 
2005-05-04 01:29:41 PM  
when i read this, i was imagining if she ad said yes, this would have been posted with a sappy tag.... or not. probably not.
 
2005-05-04 02:10:52 PM  
The hospital porter gouged her right eye and scarred the nurse's face. She has undergone surgery four times since the attack.

*%$*#@!
 
2005-05-04 02:54:49 PM  
fark. This is some sick shiat.
 
2005-05-04 03:34:18 PM  
its hardly close to some of the sickest shiat that goes on in Indian (er South Asian) society
 
2005-05-04 03:37:38 PM  
That's what it says in the Bible.
 
2005-05-04 03:38:54 PM  
The rapist, named Bhura, appeared to suggest his offer of marriage to the 22-year-old victim would be helpful to her.

He told the court in the capital New Delhi he was willing to wed her as "no one would be ready to due to the stigma".


How thoughtful of him. Really makes you forget about how he raped her and then gouged her eye.

And how farked up it is that 1.) the judge actually asked the woman to consider it and 2.) she might have trouble getting married because of the stigma attached to being a rape victim?
 
2005-05-04 03:39:17 PM  
Joe Don Faker

Wow! My thoughts exactly !!!
 
2005-05-04 03:41:07 PM  
Castrate him. Then hang him. This animal is a disgrace to all men.
 
2005-05-04 03:42:03 PM  
The hospital porter gouged her right eye and scarred the nurse's face. She has undergone surgery four times since the attack.


This isn't a "Kobe Bryant" rape, this is a horrible, violent assult. We need to realize that there are diffrent levels of rape, from date-rape to these horrible farkers and punish apropriately.
 
2005-05-04 03:42:48 PM  
This is aggravated rape and felony assault, etc. For the court to consider such a thing makes the entire community look backwards as hell. He should be doing at least 15-20 years hard time.
 
2005-05-04 03:42:54 PM  
Joe Don Faker

Who the fark are those two?

/not in the know
 
2005-05-04 03:43:06 PM  
In northern Pakistan and parts of Yemen, she would have been murdered by her brothers for brining shame onto the family.
 
2005-05-04 03:43:33 PM  
Send him to an American prison so that he can learn all about the "stigma" of being a rape victim. Maybe one of his more aggressive attackers will offer to marry him.
 
2005-05-04 03:43:52 PM  
Actually, back in the day...like 16th century back in the day, this was completely normal in Europe. If a woman was raped, she was considered no good and the only way to save face was to marry the guy who raped her.

/Artmesia Gentileschi
 
2005-05-04 03:43:58 PM  
Joe Don Faker

Huh? Who are they? Wha?
 
2005-05-04 03:44:25 PM  
Ah, the saga of Luke and Laura brought to the real world.
 
2005-05-04 03:44:40 PM  
Isn't this not that uncommon of an idea in that part of the world? I know I remember reading about this same thing in at least one of my classes.

/not that it makes it any better.
 
2005-05-04 03:45:19 PM  
Animatronik: He was sentenced to life.
 
2005-05-04 03:45:26 PM  
Nice civilization they've got going on over there.
 
2005-05-04 03:46:01 PM  
remember talking to an indian muslim guy. was proud grandfather raped his grandmother there by custom he married her and she became a muslim in the process.

//but we must not judge
 
2005-05-04 03:46:05 PM  
perhaps the stigma is an injury that occurred to her eye after it was gauged, turning her face into an eyesore....

/One please, first handbasket class
 
2005-05-04 03:46:10 PM  
I wouldn't marry a chick if I had raped her; she'd be used goods...
 
2005-05-04 03:46:13 PM  
As messed up as the rapist is, he's a criminal and his actions have context. Rapists rape. I'm more disturbed by the judge. What sane legal mind would seriously consider the rapist's marriage offer? That part is incomprehensible.
 
2005-05-04 03:46:24 PM  
Enuratique:

Who the fark are those two?


That is Luke and Laura from General Hospital.
Luke raped her.
Then they got married in a fairy tale wedding that the whole world watched.
Theirs is a love to last throughout the ages.

//off to join seppuku with Joe Don Faker
 
2005-05-04 03:46:35 PM  
this is nothing compared to the true indian underbelly...
 
2005-05-04 03:46:37 PM  
autopr0n

This isn't a "Kobe Bryant" rape, this is a horrible, violent assult.

I think Kobe's accuser would've taken the deal. I would, and I'm a hetero male. Call me, Kobe, we can work something out.
 
2005-05-04 03:47:14 PM  
Geez, you guys sure are killing the romance of this story.
 
2005-05-04 03:47:18 PM  
Isn't this straight out of the bible?
 
2005-05-04 03:47:20 PM  
Dann015: It's not that uncommon an idea in most parts of the world. It's in the Bible, and was not uncommon here even as late as the 1800s. The only culture I know that rejects this particular practice is Islam (though, I'm sure there are others), but of course that doesn't stop backwards hicks from being backwards hicks...
 
2005-05-04 03:47:36 PM  
[image from img240.echo.cx too old to be available]
 
2005-05-04 03:47:45 PM  
He admitted to raping the girl. Furthermore, he injured her eye and face to the extent that surgery was required. The judge deferred to the victim's response and assessment of what should be done with the rapist, and then followed through with her recommendation.

Wish it happened this way more often.
 
2005-05-04 03:48:24 PM  
This shiat is considered norm in some muslim countries. Sometimes the women themselves choose to marry the rapist in order to protect the family honor. Many others refuse to press charges for the same reason and because they don't want to become an outcast.

And it gets even worse (if you can belive that): sometimes the victim is blamed for the rape.
 
2005-05-04 03:48:26 PM  
So if I horribly disfigure a woman without raping her, I don't have to die? But if I just rape her and don't disfigure...I should die?
 
2005-05-04 03:49:48 PM  
Unspeakable. Oh God, No!
 
2005-05-04 03:49:49 PM  
I read the headline, and my first thought was "Must be in Utah." Dunno why.

/would never live in Utah
 
2005-05-04 03:50:45 PM  
Deuteronomy: Chapter 22, Verses 23-24 and 28-29. Because Jesus loves you.
 
2005-05-04 03:51:07 PM  
wow, he's probably considered a pretty good guy in that country too. to local men, she may not be worth anything anymore.
 
2005-05-04 03:51:16 PM  
He just has to pay her father 30 pieces of silver and BAM!, instant marriage. Then she can relive her horror everyday of her life. God bless you magical Bible, with your laws of wisdom.

/trying too hard to begin flamewar
 
2005-05-04 03:51:53 PM  
The bible says a lot of things, okay. Even snake-handlers don't expect everything in the bible to be directly applied to daily life.

"Isn't this in the bible?" I ought to call a few she-bears out to maul you pagans.
 
2005-05-04 03:52:05 PM  
space_cadet_28: Then that guy obviously never read the Quran. Rape is one of the biggest crimes in Islam (possibly greater than murder). The punishment for it is not specified in the Quran, but the historical record of Islam teachings (the equivalent of Catholic church doctrine built up over the centuries), says that the women is absolved of any sin, and that the offender is to be put to death.
 
2005-05-04 03:52:36 PM  
Anyone have the passage in the Bible that says this? Seem to be an awful lot of theologians here...
 
2005-05-04 03:52:47 PM  
Grimdeath just won.
 
2005-05-04 03:52:51 PM  
In their society (or many like it) they would chop off your hand for stealing, sooooooooooooo OFF WITH HIS WEENER!
 
2005-05-04 03:53:34 PM  
rodeofrog: That should immediately set off warning bells about "well, this book is supposed to be inspired by a perfect, all-knowing being, but we're going to ignore most of it and just keep the stuff we like". I don't care whether you believe in Christianity, but at least have the balls to be consistent about it.
 
2005-05-04 03:53:49 PM  
Asian Caucasian beat me to it. For those that can't be bothered to look it up:

"If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her; he may not put her away all his days."

So the rapist and the judge were only doing the Christian thing. Now it's time for the girl to do the Christian thing and forgive him.
 
2005-05-04 03:54:05 PM  
Animatronik

He should be doing at least 15-20 years hard time.

15-20 years on death row before we give him a blindfold and a cigarette? Or just 15-20 years?
 
2005-05-04 03:54:10 PM  
Gobus
/trying too hard to begin flamewar

Agreed. Stay on target. This thread is supposed to be about making ourselves feel superior by pointing out the backward ways of a foreign culture.
 
2005-05-04 03:54:18 PM  
My bad Asian man.

"If a man is discovered having relations with a woman who is married to another, both the man and the woman with whom he has had relations shall die. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst.
23
5 "If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her,
24
you shall bring them both out to the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbor's wife. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst.
25
"If, however, it is in the open fields that a man comes upon such a betrothed maiden, seizes her and has relations with her, the man alone shall die.
26
You shall do nothing to the maiden, since she is not guilty of a capital offense. This case is like that of a man who rises up against his neighbor and murders him:
27
it was in the open fields that he came upon her, and though the betrothed maiden may have cried out for help, there was no one to come to her aid.
28
"If a man comes upon a maiden that is not betrothed, takes her and has relations with her, and their deed is discovered,
29
the man who had relations with her shall pay the girl's father fifty silver shekels and take her as his wife, because he has deflowered her. Moreover, he may not divorce her as long as he lives.
 
2005-05-04 03:54:34 PM  
I read the headline, and my first thought was "Must be in Utah." Dunno why.

/would never live in Utah


For some reason, Atomic Orgy, I don't imagine Utah's losing a lot of sleep over your opinion of it.
 
2005-05-04 03:54:49 PM  
Atomic Orgy

I read the headline, and my first thought was "Must be in Utah." Dunno why.


Hmmm...I read the headline and figured it had to be a Muslim country. And turns out I was right.
 
2005-05-04 03:55:21 PM  
That is Luke and Laura from General Hospital.
Luke raped her.
Then they got married in a fairy tale wedding that the whole world watched.
Theirs is a love to last throughout the ages.

//off to join seppuku with Joe Don Faker


I was a college freshman in 1981 when Luke and Laura got married and living in a coed dorm. I'd come back to the dorm after ECON 101, walk through the lobby on my way to my room and do my level best to avoid the throngs of students (women AND men) crying over the TV set. People actually scheduled their classes around GH. Damn ...

///Joe Don and buntz, can I borrow the short sword when y'all are done with it?
 
2005-05-04 03:56:28 PM  
In fairness to Christians, most rules of the Old Testament were repealed. So, this is apparently all the Jews fault

/just kidding
//I'm nowhere near coherent
 
2005-05-04 03:56:54 PM  
suebhoney: Castration, it's the only way to be sure.

no, but decapitation would be (hint, a penis is not required to commit rape, and rapists are often after power not sexual gratification)
 
2005-05-04 03:57:04 PM  
In a country where this is even a question, it is right for the judge to ask the victim for an answer. If more judges did this maybe they all could get it out of their heads that rape victims have ANY desire to marry their rapists.

BTW, she still might get burned alive in an honor killing for this. What a disgusting horribly dishonored family to have a disfigured raped girl. Who would willingly want to marry or be friends with that?
 
2005-05-04 03:57:13 PM  
Lakedaimonios: Ah, the saga of Luke and Laura brought to the real world.

Man, the first time I read that as "the saga of Luke and Leia." I thought I must've missed the part of the trilogy where Luke raped his sister.

[image from fanwarz.com too old to be available]
 
2005-05-04 03:57:22 PM  
It's not news, it's troll.com

/off to get some popcorn
 
2005-05-04 03:57:29 PM  
rodeofrog
For some reason, Atomic Orgy, I don't imagine Utah's losing a lot of sleep over your opinion of it.

Probably not, but I'm not terribly concerned with Utah's opinion of me either, so it's all good. :)
 
2005-05-04 03:57:44 PM  
FLMountainMan: It's in Deuteronomy, verse 22:

"[28] If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
[29] Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
[30] A man shall not take his father's wife, nor discover his father's skirt."

The bracketed numbers are line numbers.
 
2005-05-04 03:58:19 PM  
Hmmm...I read the headline and figured it had to be a Muslim country. And turns out I was right.

more of a hindu country actually
 
2005-05-04 03:58:42 PM  
Solia
The judge deferred to the victim's response and assessment of what should be done with the rapist, and then followed through with her recommendation.

No, the victim recommended that he be "hanged so that such an horrendous is not repeated with any other girl". The judge gave him life in prison.

Victim impact reports are a normal and beneficial part of criminal proceedings in many parts of the world, and often have an impact on sentencing - either in severity or leniency - depending on what the victim has to say.

Being summoned to reply to your rapists marriage proposal is a completely different thing.
 
2005-05-04 03:58:54 PM  
Interesting, but not surprising, that the verse seems so male-oriented. It basically tells the guy, "you raped her, now you have to marry her and live with her forever." No consideration that the woman might not find this arrangement all that swell.
 
2005-05-04 03:58:54 PM  
In the bible "rape" refers to sex out of wedlock more than "physically sexually assaulted".

So it's like if a girl has pre-marital sex, she should marry the man because otherwise she's Mary Magadalen....or something like that.
 
2005-05-04 03:58:57 PM  
Contrafabulous Flaptration: India is a Mulsim country? News to the Hindus...
 
2005-05-04 04:00:11 PM  
It also says in the bible not to eat pork, but Christians don't listen to that either.

This thread is making me sick.

//wonder if some of the asshat farkers would make jokes if their mothers/wives/daughters were raped
 
2005-05-04 04:00:25 PM  
Asian Caucasian
I'm pretty sure Deuteronomy is in the Old Testament, which makes it way pre-Jesus. Know at least the most basic facts before you shoot your mouth off and insult a bunch of people's religion next time, mkay?
 
2005-05-04 04:00:32 PM  
Contrabulous Flabtraption
Hmmm...I read the headline and figured it had to be a Muslim country. And turns out I was right.

No you weren't. (pops)

"With the origins of Hinduism and Buddhism in India, religion is considered to be extremely important. Of the two religions, Hinduism is infinitely more popular, with an incredible 82 percent of the population practicing it." (from the link)

/just sayin'
 
2005-05-04 04:00:54 PM  
The hospital porter gouged her right eye and scarred the nurse's face. She has undergone surgery four times since the attack.

I nominate this guy for scum of the year.
 
2005-05-04 04:01:00 PM  
FLMountainMan: Not repealed, but more overridden. Jesus basically said "to the extent that what I say contridicts the Torah, my stuff takes priority".
 
2005-05-04 04:01:15 PM  
I still can't believe such a smooth guy needed to rape someone.
 
2005-05-04 04:01:24 PM  
heliosc: India is a Mulsim country? News to the Hindus...

I believe they have the 3rd largest muslim population of any contry.
 
2005-05-04 04:01:50 PM  
You're right, I was wrong.
 
2005-05-04 04:02:08 PM  
Actual western India has a good number of muslims, as does the eastern part. The west is bleeding over from muslim Pakistan, the east from muslim Bangladesh, Myanmarr, etc.
 
2005-05-04 04:02:13 PM  
Doc Daneeka
said:
I thought I must've missed the part of the trilogy where Luke raped his sister.

Don't worry, you wouldn't know because that happens in episode III.

/already has his handbasket picked out
 
2005-05-04 04:02:47 PM  
Atomic Orgy:

Contrabulous Flabtraption
Hmmm...I read the headline and figured it had to be a Muslim country. And turns out I was right.

No you weren't. (pops)

"With the origins of Hinduism and Buddhism in India, religion is considered to be extremely important. Of the two religions, Hinduism is infinitely more popular, with an incredible 82 percent of the population practicing it." (from the link)

/just sayin'


OWNED!....by facts.
 
2005-05-04 04:02:51 PM  
Programmer Cat:

15-20 years on death row before we give him a blindfold and a cigarette? Or just 15-20 years?

I say turn him into a woman and release him as a marked tramp in Iraq
 
2005-05-04 04:02:53 PM  
Can we poke fun at the appropriate religion now? This Christian and Muslim stuff is so another thread.
 
2005-05-04 04:03:24 PM  
Deuteronomy 22:28

Bible says you gotta do it. I hope he remembers to pay the father too.
 
2005-05-04 04:03:31 PM  
ScreamingDolai: But that's consistent, because Jesus said that his words override the Old Testament, and he explicitly did away with dietary restrictions. Nowhere in the New Testement does he override the punishment for rape. Ergo, it is presumsed that the one given in Deuteronomy stands.

Remember, its not like Jesus said "okay, the Old Testement doesn't count anymore!"
 
2005-05-04 04:03:32 PM  
vyce

In the bible "rape" refers to sex out of wedlock more than "physically sexually assaulted".

is there a glossary of terms in the bible that I missed?
 
2005-05-04 04:04:11 PM  
I bet you the Runaway Bride's fiancee would still take her.
 
2005-05-04 04:04:26 PM  
The bible says a lot of things, okay. Even snake-handlers don't expect everything in the bible to be directly applied to daily life.

"Isn't this in the bible?" I ought to call a few she-bears out to maul you pagans.


The law was passed down by Moses, who was divinely inspired, so technically it come from God. Funny how when someone points how something horrible in the bible, everyone yells that it "was taken out of context" or that it "no longer applies". If God is the same as he is today, yesterday, and forever, then the old laws should be treated with respect by Christians today. Even Jesus said he hasn't come to destroy the laws. "Give unto Caeser..."
 
2005-05-04 04:04:45 PM  
losterato: That makes India a "muslim country" about as much as it makes the United States a "jewish country".
 
2005-05-04 04:05:41 PM  
smeegle


I say turn him into a woman and release him as a marked tramp in Iraq


I got a better idea. Give him to Lyndie England and let her make this rapist her biatch.
 
2005-05-04 04:05:46 PM  
FLMountainMan

Anyone have the passage in the Bible that says this? Seem to be an awful lot of theologians here...

Not really. More like "I saw a bible once so I know what I am talking about" theologians.

I don't think castration is the answer. Something tells me he would accept castration as a punishment, as opposed to his death or life in prison. So in that respect, Firing squad - no blindfold - one shot at a time - you guess where to shoot first. Anyone who saw sin city have any ideas?
 
2005-05-04 04:06:12 PM  
heliosc

I don't care whether you believe in Christianity, but at least have the balls to be consistent about it.

Gasp. I never once thought that the bible may have passages that seem to contradict other passages. I bow to your wisdom, you mighty scholar of consistency. Come to think of it, how could Jesus be a Jew, but break the sabbath? And why did God want the children of Israel to kill so many folk? Circumcision, what's the deal? Now, that I think about it, some days it rains, but other days, it's totally sunny. WTF??!??

You've given me a lot to think about, Captain Nobible. Mythology is confusing.
 
2005-05-04 04:06:26 PM  
heliosc: because he hath humbled her

humbled her? you have got to be kidding me.
 
2005-05-04 04:07:10 PM  
weezeman: Eh, more like had to read the Bible for class in highschool. Yes, they still do that in Virginia. We read it as "a work of literature".

That said, it's still a good idea. It's shocking how poorly educated American "Christians" are about their own religion...
 
2005-05-04 04:08:07 PM  
"Bailiff, whack his pee-pee."
 
2005-05-04 04:08:17 PM  
Programmer Cat:

got a better idea. Give him to Lyndie England and let her make this rapist her biatch


GadNabbit Cat I almost chocked on my lollipop that time. Stop it before I squeek a fart out.
 
2005-05-04 04:09:04 PM  
R... T... F'ing... A...
 
2005-05-04 04:09:04 PM  
That actually would be a strong deterrant to rape. Sort of, "You broke it, you bought it".
 
2005-05-04 04:09:27 PM  
what's the backup on the seppuku sword? My shame in knowing this knows no bounds
 
2005-05-04 04:09:57 PM  
rodeofrog: I'm not saying that the Bible is inconsistent. Following a certain logic, it's remarkably consistent. My beef is with people who claim to believe the Bible (ie: they follow that logic), but don't accept the logical implications of that belief. It's like saying "I accept that idea of addition, and I agree that 2+2=4, but I refuse to believe that 2+3=5!"
 
2005-05-04 04:10:04 PM  

everyone yells that it "was taken out of context" or that it "no longer applies".


apparently the omnipotent God doesn't take the time to put out new editions.


just like the omnipotent God needs his confused followers to do his killing for him/her/it
 
2005-05-04 04:10:12 PM  
smeegle

GadNabbit Cat I almost chocked on my lollipop that time. Stop it before I squeek a fart out.

I just couldn't resist pouncing on that joke.
 
2005-05-04 04:10:40 PM  
See, all he was doing was offering to marry her so he wouldn't have to marry bubba...

/here comes the bride.
 
2005-05-04 04:11:02 PM  
chechcal:

That actually would be a strong deterrant to rape. Sort of, "You broke it, you bought it".
You guys are killing me. Tears are rolling down my face LMAO

If I were forced to marry a guy that had raped me, that dude would wake up with his wanker in his mouth.
 
2005-05-04 04:13:14 PM  
Anyone bringing up Old Testament verses are asshats.

Wrong religion, dipshiats. Doesn't apply here, and it wouldn't even if the two people involved were Christian. Get a life.

/Christian
//Tired of BS like this
 
2005-05-04 04:13:37 PM  
smeegle: That's KJV for you. It's translate differently in some other versions. The NIV translates it as "violated". The NIV's wording makes the situation a lot more clear:

"25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die.
26 Do nothing to the girl; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders his neighbor,
27 for the man found the girl out in the country, and though the betrothed girl screamed, there was no one to rescue her.

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered,
29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. [a] He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. "
 
2005-05-04 04:13:53 PM  
I've got an even better idea: two speeding bullets should be allowed to have sex with the back of his head.

Asshat.
 
2005-05-04 04:15:25 PM  
Artmageddon: /Christian
//Tired of BS like this


Hey how does it feel to have the tables turned and get a load of BS thrown your way?
//
Aw come on lighten up. We are just having a little fun.
Exscuse me I think my broomstick is double parked.
 
2005-05-04 04:15:55 PM  
It's impossible to know this, however:

The courts there might not allow for victim's impact statements, especially from women.

Consequently, this may have been a clever way of the judge to "allow" her to answer, knowing she would say what she did and get it entered into the record as a victim's impact statement.

Just a thought, I am willing to give the judge the benefit of the doubt.
 
2005-05-04 04:16:39 PM  
smeegle

If I were forced to marry a guy that had raped me, that dude would wake up with his wanker in his mouth.

Let's go out!

/laughs nervously
 
2005-05-04 04:17:01 PM  
"If I had mawwied dat bitz, she wood neber 'ad zent me to prizin. Dat bitz. I shoulda punts her in da face."

[image from dailytimes.com.pk too old to be available]
 
2005-05-04 04:17:04 PM  
smeegle: I get BS thrown my way everyday :)

It's all good, I'm just having fun myself.
 
2005-05-04 04:18:04 PM  
Where's the Hindu outrage?
 
2005-05-04 04:18:26 PM  
heliosc: He can never divorce her as long as he lives. "

Hmm and is thusly condemmed to live with a screaming shrew
foreverv and ever amen.

Okay

(humbled her my arse)
 
2005-05-04 04:18:50 PM  
"It was a subtle piece of refinement that God learned Greek when he wanted to become a writer - and that he did not learn it better."

- Nietzsche
 
2005-05-04 04:18:51 PM  
Oh stop whining you farking liberals. You know she wanted it.

/gots the bus all to himself...
 
2005-05-04 04:19:27 PM  
Three Things:
1-Maybe I missed it but in everyones attempt to riducule their court and judicial system everyone seems to have missed the point that he recieved a much harsher scentence than he would have in a modern enlightned country such as our own (over here we would have asked him who he blames for making him rape her and then let him out in a year)
B-What nucklehead dragged the Bible into this when there is a pretty good chance that it was in no way involved?
And Furthermore- Who is the hot chick with Michael Bolton's cousin at the beginning of this thread.
 
2005-05-04 04:19:33 PM  
Isn't this the next logical progression, after Republicans get abortion outlawed?
 
2005-05-04 04:20:17 PM  
Artmageddon: Dude, there is a reason the Old Testament is a part of the Bible. It still applies to Christians! It's partially overridden by the New Testament, but not eliminated by it. Read the first parth of Matthew.
 
2005-05-04 04:20:29 PM  
Contraband Sandwich: Let's go out!

hahaha that farking funny. Don't be nervous, I likes the womens.
 
2005-05-04 04:20:57 PM  
Confoundit
don't forget that this whole thing takes place in india, where, unlike many western cultures, a virginal bride is a BIG issue, like a wedding breaking issue.
and also, if i'm not mistaken,in some indian text, the rapist is supposed to marry the rapee, like is supposed to take on all responsibility of caring for her for the rest of his life and such.
 
2005-05-04 04:21:22 PM  
[image from max.blog.az too old to be available]

"I'll tell everyone you were untouchable!"
 
2005-05-04 04:22:14 PM  
Artmageddon: Dude, there is a reason the Old Testament is a part of the Bible. It still applies to Christians! It's partially overridden by the New Testament, but not eliminated by it. Read the first parth of Matthew.

He is correct. You can't just focus on one part of the bible because it makes you feel good. You have to look at the whole thing, and as a christian, you must accept the WHOLE bible, not just the happy parts.
 
2005-05-04 04:23:10 PM  
Trying to remain culturally sensitive after reading an article like this is difficult, yes.
 
2005-05-04 04:24:00 PM  
heliosc: Read the first parth of Matthew.

1. parth
smart, cool, and great person.
very god damn sexy too.
although this person can tend to be a bit conceited and arrogant at times, but its only cuz they have something to be conceited about.
that person is so sexy, and cool, almost a parth, but no one can ever be that good, but there pretty damn close.


Matthew was such a sexy cool guy.


Bit conceited though...
 
2005-05-04 04:24:31 PM  
When it comes to something liek that, I could care less abotu cultural sensitivity. That is just plane sick.
 
2005-05-04 04:25:11 PM  
We need an "India" tag.

/no offense to Indians, but sometimes they need to get lumped with Floridians.
 
2005-05-04 04:26:20 PM  
Few countries are really of one religion. Most have a variety of religions in them, though needless to say, some are more popular than others. So calling any country Buddhist, Islamic, or Christain doesn't really mean a whole lot.

Remember, ladies, when you're out late at night, be sure to pack your vagina with razor blades to make you less attractive to rapists.
 
2005-05-04 04:26:25 PM  
Man On Fire: I vote for a "Backwards Hick" tag, so we can lump all this news under one place.
 
2005-05-04 04:29:20 PM  
Gobus:

you must accept the WHOLE bible, not just the happy parts.

Uhh okay, but the whole tome taken literally is a tad whacked.
 
2005-05-04 04:29:48 PM  
Hecticthe13th, if that is correct then it is remarkably similar to the commandment in Deut (see above). Being made to marry the girl you raped and take care of her the rest of your life (if she agrees) seems like a pretty good punishment, if properly enforced.
 
2005-05-04 04:29:50 PM  
megalynn44: That is just plane sick.

[image from img51.echo.cx too old to be available]
 
2005-05-04 04:30:00 PM  
The dude got:

[image from kalieb.net too old to be available]
 
2005-05-04 04:30:16 PM  
heliosc
I vote for a "Backwards Hick" tag, so we can lump all this news under one place.

Great idea! Every country, region and religion has got 'em, so we might as well be fair about it.
 
2005-05-04 04:30:24 PM  
Uhh okay, but the whole tome taken literally is a tad whacked.

My point exactly.
 
2005-05-04 04:30:34 PM  
heliosc: Eh, more like had to read the Bible for class in highschool. Yes, they still do that in Virginia. We read it as "a work of literature".

Am I correct in guessing that it was southern Virginia?

I went to school in Fairfax county and never read the bible in public school.
 
2005-05-04 04:30:46 PM  


Wrong religion, dipshiats. Doesn't apply here, and it wouldn't even if the two people involved were Christian. Get a life.

/Christian
//Tired of BS like this



oh, so tired. Weary really.

everyone is a dipshiat for saying such things about Christians. boo hoo


If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. (Deuteronomy 22:23-29)


this passage has been the law of the land vis a vis rape in christian nations for thousands of years.
 
2005-05-04 04:31:42 PM  
heliosc
Artmageddon: Dude, there is a reason the Old Testament is a part of the Bible. It still applies to Christians! It's partially overridden by the New Testament, but not eliminated by it. Read the first parth of Matthew.

I'll admit that for starters, I'm not a perfect Christian, nor am I "holier than thou" enlightened when it comes to the Bible. I'm trying to find out more and more about it everyday. Basically, I'm not going to be a dick like some people might think :)

Getting to your point, I think it applies to an extent, at least from what I see in today's world. One thing that I've heard is that you have to accept the Bible as the "whole truth", meaning you either believe in everything that was written by God in it, or you don't believe in the whole thing. Many people look at Leviticus when they give gay people crap about their sexuality, yet hardly anyone pays attention to the stuff about pork, or say, uncleanliness. I mean, why is it okay to reject gay people, yet it can be implied in the same book, that if I were to give my girlfriend a hug during "that time of the month", I'd be "unclean"? (probably a poor example of comparison, but...) My point is, there seems to be a lack of consistency. Shouldn't we hear about this sort of thing more often from religious types?

I'm not trying to imply that the OT is deprecated, or useless or anything...but rather MAYBE secondary to the NT(OT is the time before Christ, a "history of the world", the NT is how Christ came, and what we must do to be in His kingdom).

Again, not looking to get flamed for trying to "impose my beliefs" upon others or something.
 
2005-05-04 04:32:01 PM  
[image from histar.com too old to be available]/wait, we can do that?
 
2005-05-04 04:32:02 PM  
[image from histar.com too old to be available]
/wait, we can do that?
 
2005-05-04 04:32:21 PM  
educated: Trying to remain culturally sensitive after reading an article like this is difficult, yes.

You must be American.... Because that's the exact same thing the rest of the world says when they hear about 'Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire', celebrity sex tapes and Bush's re-election....
 
2005-05-04 04:33:11 PM  
And you know, another good thing about India is all the outsourcing jobs we supply for those sick bastards.
 
2005-05-04 04:33:29 PM  
smeegle: What's the logical alternative? Saying "these are the laws of God, and my punishment for breaking them is eternal damnation, but I don't like all of them, so I'll pretend they don't exist". People have this idea that Christianity is this happy religion where "being a good person and saying you believe in Jesus" is all you need to do. That's a pop-culture myth. Christianity is a harsh religion, and it hasn't gotten any less harsh in hundreds of years. People have just gotten lax about following it. Make no mistake, if the Bible is actually what it claims it is, the majority of Christians alive are going to hell.
 
2005-05-04 04:33:54 PM  
Solia
thank you, that was probably what i was thinking of. it's amazing how uneducated i am in the intricacies of the majority religion of my countries.
 
2005-05-04 04:34:01 PM  
Gobus: My point exactly.

It was written by so many people though, it would be silly consider it wholly.
Oh wait did I say silly? I meant pious.
 
2005-05-04 04:34:42 PM  
Smeegle

...hmmm, a chick who is into ladies and mutilating dudes?

/strangely arousing...

//kidding

That crack about wakeing up with his weener in his mouth is pretty good, consider that stolen.

///just might top "I'll ram your shoulder up your ass," but then again, the logistics of ramming someone's shoulder up one's ass is pretty intriguing (sp?)...
 
2005-05-04 04:35:43 PM  
dammit, delete one of those ugly faces mods
 
2005-05-04 04:36:48 PM  
heliosc:

Christianity is a harsh religion, and it hasn't gotten any less harsh in hundreds of years. People have just gotten lax about following it. Make no mistake, if the Bible is actually what it claims it is, the majority of Christians alive are going to hell.

Not disagreeing, I would be executed for being gay.
The harshness in the religion was created by crusty old half crazed buttholes.
 
2005-05-04 04:37:07 PM  
He needs to be Ass Raped, Repeatedly, with a Pine Apple.
No Lube.
 
2005-05-04 04:37:22 PM  
heliosc, I see you are rather ignorant about Islamic practices concerning rape.

To prove a rape under Shariah Law, you must have at least 4 reliable male witnesses. If you do not have 4 male eyewitnesses, then the sex is considered consensual and the woman is stoned to death for adultery.
 
2005-05-04 04:38:01 PM  
Contraband Sandwich:

the logistics of ramming someone's shoulder up one's ass is pretty intriguing (sp?)...

Contraband, I believe you are admirably twisted.
 
2005-05-04 04:38:31 PM  
You must be American

Aye. Proudly.

Because that's the exact same thing the rest of the world says when they hear about 'Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire', celebrity sex tapes and Bush's re-election....

You are talking about a certain percentage of Americans there - then generalizing to all of us. You should not do things like that, it makes you look like a dolt. Thanks for the troll though - it made me feel special.
 
2005-05-04 04:39:21 PM  
dbaggins:

If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. (Deuteronomy 22:23-29)

this passage has been the law of the land vis a vis rape in christian nations for thousands of years.


Given what would have happened in leiu of this law 2000 years ago, where the rape victim would have been ostracized from society, the family would have disowned her, and she would have ended up destitute, was it not a better alternative to force the man to support the woman for the remainder of her life?

Was Deuteronomy not a book of rules written to maintain order in a nomadic tribe thousands of years ago? Why are it and Leviticus constantly quoted by bible-thumpers on the issue of gay marriage, and atheists on the issue of human rights violations? Me not understand...
 
2005-05-04 04:39:32 PM  
The law was passed down by Moses, who was divinely inspired, so technically it come from God. Funny how when someone points how something horrible in the bible, everyone yells that it "was taken out of context" or that it "no longer applies". If God is the same as he is today, yesterday, and forever, then the old laws should be treated with respect by Christians today. Even Jesus said he hasn't come to destroy the laws. "Give unto Caeser..."

But the laws in the old testament weren't issued to "Christians", they were issued to Moses and his people. God revealed laws through His prophets at different phases of time, and to different people who lived (and live) in different times. Just as God makes some people tall and some people short, He can be the same, but His relationship to us can seem different as a result of our differences.

I don't see anything wrong with saying that the law you folks are referencing is not consistent with more recent revelation given from God.
 
2005-05-04 04:39:35 PM  
losterato: I believe they have the 3rd largest muslim population of any contry.

They also have the 2nd largest population of any country.
 
2005-05-04 04:40:14 PM  
dolemite30: He needs to be Ass Raped, Repeatedly, with a Pine Apple.

Speaking of admirably twisted , have you met Contraband sandwich??
You guys are cracking me up and it's not even friday.
 
2005-05-04 04:40:20 PM  
dolemite30

He needs to be Ass Raped, Repeatedly, with a Pine Apple.
No Lube.


Should we pull the pin first?

[image from derdienst.com too old to be available]
 
2005-05-04 04:40:34 PM  
So in effect, the vast majority of rapes in the Islamic world are never reported because the woman doesn't have those handy 4 male eyewitnesses, forensic evidence be damned. She will keep her mouth shut and either get a hymen restoration surgery so that she will be marryable or she will grow old as a spinster.

Then there's always the practice of honor killings that a rape victim has to contend with, as well as people participating in consensual sex. Family honor means everything to an Arab. It is one of the foundations of their society. If you dishonor your family by doing something like having consensual sex or being raped, your family might kill you. Hundreds of these happen in Jordan alone every year and usually the murderer is either set free or given 1-2 years in jail.
 
2005-05-04 04:41:05 PM  
Wow... so many Christians bashing the Old Testament... I guess then that homosexuality and every other "bad thing" in the OT is now just peachy, no?
 
2005-05-04 04:41:13 PM  
The guy's got balls. Though, it would be proper to remedy that with all haste.
 
2005-05-04 04:42:18 PM  
Programmer Cat: Should we pull the pin first?

Falling out of my chair,,,
 
2005-05-04 04:42:22 PM  
That would be so completely gross!! That is a travisty to everyone involved! and EWWW!
 
2005-05-04 04:42:28 PM  
Very christian of him!
 
2005-05-04 04:42:49 PM  
Villain:

I guess then that homosexuality and every other "bad thing" in the OT is now just peachy, no?

Well it would have been, had you not made unfortunate use of the word "peachy."
 
2005-05-04 04:42:51 PM  
Villain:
I'm not bashing it-but how many Christians do you know follow it to the letter? I mean everything; no trimming of the beard or the sides of the hair, no touching a woman during her period of uncleanliness...

Again, not bashing(not me anyway). Trying to find the truth.
 
2005-05-04 04:43:13 PM  
Getting to your point, I think it applies to an extent, at least from what I see in today's world.

That's the thing with these "book based" religions --- what matters is what the book, says, not the way the world is. If 99% of people are violating a Biblical law, that makes them sinners, it doesn't make the law invalid. Divine laws make no logical sense taken any other way.

meaning you either believe in everything that was written by God in it, or you don't believe in the whole thing.

It's more subtle than that. You don't have to accept that the Bible is written by God, because it's not. It is acknowledged to be the work of humans (unlike what the Quran claims to be --- the word of God himself). That gives you a little leeway in interpreting the Bible, but that doesn't mean you can just ignore parts of the Bible wholesale. While the Bible wasn't written by God, it is presumed to be an accurate recollection of the teachings of Jesus (whose word is God's word). There are ideas that Jesus repeats consistently (eg: evangelism), and if you don't follow those, you are by all reasonable interpertations violating the laws of God.

yet hardly anyone pays attention to the stuff about pork, or say, uncleanliness

Those items specifically are ones that Jesus overrode in the New Testament.
 
2005-05-04 04:43:15 PM  
smeegle

Falling out of my chair,,,

No fart?
 
2005-05-04 04:43:59 PM  
Programmer Cat: No fart?

I filled my pants, if that counts for anything.
 
2005-05-04 04:44:50 PM  
Programmer Cat: No fart?

Shhh girls don't...
Oh wait ah thats better. Hope no one come into my cubicle just yet.
 
2005-05-04 04:45:40 PM  
demoralizer: So I take it we should use West Virginians as representations for Americans in general?

My point is that its kind of ridiculous to take your image, largely the result of hearing the worst news out of a country (usually from the most backwards parts of the country), and use it to judge the whole country. The engineers working in programming aren't from India's equivalent of Bumpkinville Alabama.
 
2005-05-04 04:46:24 PM  
Hmmm...I read the headline and figured it had to be a Muslim country. And turns out I was right


Hindu country, but don't let pesky facts stop you from being an intolerant racists....

after all, they are all brown skinned pagans, right?
 
2005-05-04 04:48:45 PM  
bbcrackmonkey: That's to prove adultry you retard. To prove rape all you need is the women's complaint and reasonable physical evidence.
 
2005-05-04 04:48:59 PM  
......and people say that chivalry is dead!


hmpphhhhh!!
 
2005-05-04 04:49:00 PM  
whoa. tried to take a break from work.
i think ill go back at it.
 
2005-05-04 04:50:12 PM  
I don't claim to have the answers, but the smell of hypocrisy stands out from time to time. All I want to know is why some people think that the Biblical teachings concerning homosexuality are holy and divinely-inspired (based on the laws in Leviticus), yet somehow think that Deuteronomy (another book of the Pentateuch) are outright wrong. It seems like pick-and-choose dogma, which to me seems to be on the straight path to damnation.

And to answer your question, Artmageddon, I don't know any. Those who even try to do so are often seen as peculiar.
 
2005-05-04 04:50:42 PM  
The first christians were jews. An early debate in the church (as covered in Acts somewhere) was a question about whether gentiles who became christians first had to become jews. Both Peter and Paul (at separate points) make it clear that gentiles do not have to become jews, and therefore are not under judaic law. Jews who accept Christ still are under judaic law however.

Jesus never overturned dietary restrictions, it was Peter and Paul. Jesus said that he didnt come to uphold the law, but to fulfil it.
 
2005-05-04 04:51:43 PM  
heliosc:
I'm outta work, and on my way home. Thanks for being cool about your discourse on this :)
 
2005-05-04 04:51:50 PM  
She should be allowed to stone his sorry ass to death. But then again, maybe he'll be the rapee when he goes to jail.
 
2005-05-04 04:53:07 PM  
Good god bbcrackmonkey, you're on a role. Again, the 4 witnesses is for adultry, not rape (ie: if you and a girl are accused of sex outside marriage, 4 other people had to see the coitus). The hymen restoration surgery stories are from women who had consensual sex outside of marriage, and don't want their future husbands to find out.

The 'honor killings' have nothing to do with Islam. Sharia law absolves women of any sin resulting from a rape. The practice is a holdover from Arabic nomadic practices --- what they did prior to the advent of Islam.
 
2005-05-04 04:53:11 PM  
apparently the omnipotent God doesn't take the time to put out new editions.

Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants . . .

Jesus commanded one man that he should not bury his father. Jesus commanded one man that he should bathe in a certain river. I've never seen that river, and believe I can follow Jesus's teachings without ever seeing that river. I also believe that people should not leave it to the dead to bury the dead.

Jesus also taught that a comforter would be sent, the holy Ghost. The comforter would teach all things. Without confirmation from the Holy Ghost, the letter of the law does not apply to the followers of Jesus.
 
2005-05-04 04:53:46 PM  
Programmer Cat: "Should we pull the pin first?


Awesome!
 
2005-05-04 04:54:27 PM  
Did someone say Pineapple?

[image from kinoweb.de too old to be available]
 
2005-05-04 04:54:40 PM  
dolemite30, I just couldn't resist.
 
2005-05-04 04:54:58 PM  
Villain,

The laws in Leviticus and Deuteronomy are both holy and divinely-inspired and also dont apply to gentiles.

In previou post replace "uphold" with "overturn", I think. I should probably look it up. Better to get it right.
 
2005-05-04 04:56:45 PM  
It seems like pick-and-choose dogma, which to me seems to be on the straight path to damnation.

That's exactly the sort of thinking that sent Jesus to be tortured and crucified. The leaders of the Jews couldn't understand why the rules didn't always apply, even when the spirit of the rule was not present.
 
2005-05-04 04:57:01 PM  
ScreamingDolai:

//wonder if some of the asshat farkers would make jokes if their mothers/wives/daughters were raped


Of course not - I'd marry her.
 
2005-05-04 04:58:08 PM  
Tjos Weel: I believe Paul couched his argument in terms of what Jesus had said about certain Jewish laws.
 
2005-05-04 04:58:10 PM  
Except I'm fairly certain that, at the very least, the Torah wasn't meant to be taken literally (At least, not the early parts. F*ck, dude, creation has two contradicting accounts .). Hell, even parts of the New Testament aren't meant to be taken literally... I'm fairly certain that two of the Gospel's stories about Jesus's Birth have Joseph going in different directions . One leaves the Wise Men out alltogether! But that's because the purpose of that story wasn't necessarily to be *factual*, but to explain how Jesus was a 'special person', and such (The trip into Egypt, back out is reminiscint of the story of Moses.. which I think it's supposed to be). The whole thing revolves around symbolism, something we seem to have a good deal of trouble with in this day and age.

Personally, I also see it as more of a guide book, than a rule book.. it was written by men, and transcribed by men. While it can be helpful, ultimately, one should also seek God for themselves, and not be content to sit idle of some segment disquiets you. If some portion of your faith feels wrong, dig it out and bring it into the light, and try to find why. Argue with yourself. Argue with other people. Seek God, the Good, or whatever it is you seek, in your own way. True, you may never reach it in this lifetime, but I think that you would be a better person because of it.

(Why, yes, I am a fan of the socratic Method...)
 
2005-05-04 04:58:41 PM  
ScreamingDolai

//wonder if some of the asshat farkers would make jokes if their mothers/wives/daughters were raped

Yes, I'd make the jokes I've been making in this thread -- after I kill the rapist and convince the jury that it was justi-frkking-fiable homicide.
 
2005-05-04 04:59:12 PM  
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

- Matthew 5:19

/Destroy was the word I was looking for. At least according to one translation.
 
2005-05-04 05:01:08 PM  
"I don't see anything wrong with saying that the law you folks are referencing is not consistent with more recent revelation given from God."

this is what I will never understand. God is farking God! Why would he change laws each time he supposidly talked to someone? how does God change with the times? was he a hippie in the 60's? none of that makes any farking sense.

Someone please help me understand how the Old Testament god is not the same as the new testament god...
 
2005-05-04 05:03:00 PM  

Someone please help me understand how the Old Testament god is not the same as the new testament god...


Same God, New Covenant.
 
2005-05-04 05:03:09 PM  
Felgraf: You can only go so far by saying "the Bible was written by men, and might be inconsistent". Yes, that means the letter of the law doesn't apply. But the Bible is presumed to have been written by men of good faith. If it spends a large part of a verse discussion the punishments for various types of intercourse, it can safely be assumed the law the authors are trying to put forth. This is particularly true for stuff like homosexuality, on which the Bible is *very clear*. You can't just say, "oh, I don't believe in that part --- the Bible was written by men, after all", because an error of that magnitude is active deception, not a transcription error.
 
2005-05-04 05:03:48 PM  
Pucca

Someone please help me understand how the Old Testament god is not the same as the new testament god...

The Old Testament God got some Hebrew pussy, mellowed out, and became the New Testament God. It's simple. All God needed was a good woman. Too bad she was somebody else's wife.
 
2005-05-04 05:04:55 PM  
Tjos Weel:

2005-05-04 04:50:42 PM Tjos Weel

The first christians were jews. An early debate in the church (as covered in Acts somewhere) was a question about whether gentiles who became christians first had to become jews. Both Peter and Paul (at separate points) make it clear that gentiles do not have to become jews, and therefore are not under judaic law. Jews who accept Christ still are under judaic law however.

Jesus never overturned dietary restrictions, it was Peter and Paul. Jesus said that he didnt come to uphold the law, but to fulfil it.


In this sort of discussion you should be careful to separate "ceremonial" law and "moral" law. I put them in quotes cuz I can't remember the fancy names for them.

Jesus, or Paul, never changed any "moral" law. They both changed certain "ceremonial" laws.
 
2005-05-04 05:04:58 PM  
<i>
Yes, I'd make the jokes I've been making in this thread -- after I kill the rapist and convince the jury that it was justi-frkking-fiable homicide.</i>

You would be better off going for temporary insanity. According to Law and Order "He raped my wife" is not an elgible affirmative defense for murder.

But "I don't know what happened your honor, I just say red and the next thing I know there was blood everywhere!" seems to work.
 
2005-05-04 05:05:25 PM  
Felgraf:

Personally, I also see it as more of a guide book, than a rule book.. it was written by men, and transcribed by men. While it can be helpful, ultimately, one should also seek God for themselves, and not be content to sit idle of some segment disquiets you. If some portion of your faith feels wrong, dig it out and bring it into the light, and try to find why. Argue with yourself. Argue with other people. Seek God, the Good, or whatever it is you seek, in your own way. True, you may never reach it in this lifetime, but I think that you would be a better person because of it.

[image from billangell.com too old to be available]
 
2005-05-04 05:06:18 PM  
Pucca,

I just did a quick and dirty google search on dispensationalism - skip down to point 7.

http://answers.org/theology/dispensationalism.html
 
2005-05-04 05:06:57 PM  
rodeofrog

gotcha !

I knew my crack about "new editions" would bring out a true believer comment.

Book of Mormon is a great example! just hook up my SeerStone Goggles(tm) and let's see what God wanted man to believe. Book of Moroni indeed !
 
2005-05-04 05:07:16 PM  
Tjos Weel:

"[14] And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:
[15] There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
[16] If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
[17] And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.
[18] And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
[19] Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
[20] And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
[21] For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
[22] Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
[23] All these evil things come from within, and defile the man."

Jesus declaring dietary laws obsoleted. I think this is the sort of thing Paul based his abolishment of those laws on.
 
2005-05-04 05:07:35 PM  
Programmer Cat:

The Old Testament God got some Hebrew pussy, mellowed out, and became the New Testament God. It's simple. All God needed was a good woman. Too bad she was somebody else's wife.

It's all right, Joseph was a cool with it. They had an open relationship.
 
2005-05-04 05:08:27 PM  
2005-05-04 04:54:58 PM Tjos Weel


OT doesn't apply to gentiles? Well, you could have fooled me. If that's the case, then Christians should have no problems whatsoever with evolution since Genesis carries no weight.

Oh, and for your amusement (and no, I don't use HTML): http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/index.html#introduction_to_th​e_law
 
2005-05-04 05:08:37 PM  
Doc Daneeka: It's all right, Joseph was a cool with it. They had an open relationship.

Get your facts straight, they weren't even married yet. :P
 
2005-05-04 05:09:53 PM  

OT doesn't apply to gentiles? Well, you could have fooled me. If that's the case, then Christians should have no problems whatsoever with evolution since Genesis carries no weight.


To be more accurate Mosaic law, the laws of the Jews do not apply to Gentiles. The Old Testement is still relevant to Christians for other reasons.
 
2005-05-04 05:10:06 PM  
bbcrackmonkey, where are you? I wanna hear more about this "4 witnesses thing"...

Dipshiat.
 
2005-05-04 05:10:23 PM  
BillCosby,

Fair enough. In fact, Jesus made that point quite clear. He stopped the stoning of the adulteress (the ceremonial law) but told her to go and sin no more (it was still a violation of the moral law). Actually, not the best example since there is question of the authenticity of that passage.

Possible better example: Jesus healing on the sabbath.
 
2005-05-04 05:12:18 PM  
diskop: That's what it says in the Bible.

As long as someone points that out.
 
2005-05-04 05:13:18 PM  
Fair enough. In fact, Jesus made that point quite clear. He stopped the stoning of the adulteress (the ceremonial law) but told her to go and sin no more (it was still a violation of the moral law). Actually, not the best example since there is question of the authenticity of that passage.

Possible better example: Jesus healing on the sabbath.


Bingo! 5 gold stars.
 
2005-05-04 05:13:34 PM  
jst3p:

To be more accurate Mosaic law, the laws of the Jews do not apply to Gentiles. The Old Testement is still relevant to Christians for other reasons.

Bullshiat. Jesus specifically said that not one penstroke from the old law was to be removed until heaven and Earth are destroyed.
 
2005-05-04 05:14:41 PM  
heliosc,

Thanks. I was afraid I was going to have to look that up. My point, which I made badly, was that it applies to more than just the dietary restrictions. The argument in Acts was over circumcision, but that was symbolic of all the judaic "ceremonial" laws.

Have occassionally wondered if by being circumcised I am subject to the "ceremonial" laws. :)
 
2005-05-04 05:14:42 PM  

Bullshiat. Jesus specifically said that not one penstroke from the old law was to be removed until heaven and Earth are destroyed.


He also appeared to violate the old law. There must me more too it than what you see at first glance.
 
2005-05-04 05:17:02 PM  
the deuteronomy 22:28 quote is being mistranslated.

the word translated "rape" should be translated "lies with".

therefore, (and remember the cultural context of this) all it's saying is that if a man lies with a woman who is unbetrothed, the have to get married. its refering mostly to cases of consentual sex, but does cover the odd case of rape. remember, most women/girls would have been betrothed anyway.

/too late in the discussion for my knowlege of Hebrew to matter at all.
//you retards need to learn Hebrew to talk about the old testament.
 
2005-05-04 05:18:20 PM  
Nobody seems to consider her actually marrying the scumbag.

And make friends with him.

And give him everything he needs.

Until his ego is stroked enough to make him believe he did the right thing and he's the man.

Then you feed him two doses of Rohypnol in whatever it is that passes for dinner in that country.
And when he's totally, absolutely and completely wasted: you undress him and go boil a large kettle of water, which you then proceed to pour over him, carefully aiming for his dick and nutsack. Repeat as desired.
If he lives he's not going to be so farking amused anymore.
 
2005-05-04 05:18:47 PM  
heliosc:

Jesus declaring dietary laws obsoleted. I think this is the sort of thing Paul based his abolishment of those laws on.

Jesus did not declare "dietary laws" obsolete. Jesus broke no OT law. He violated part of the Pharasaic oral law, or code of interpretation, not the actual law. Jesus' reply is a typical response which points out that the Pharasees are guilty of a greater offense, which is a violation of the clear law (to honor one's parents) for the sake of a lesser (code of interpretation).
 
2005-05-04 05:19:19 PM  

Have occassionally wondered if by being circumcised I am subject to the "ceremonial" laws. :)


No. There is a passage in Acts that talks about this. Being circumcised does not make you a Jew and does not subject you to Mosaic law. It is irrelevant.
 
2005-05-04 05:20:54 PM  
How did the Bible, the Torah, et al get in this thread?? I doubt that anyone in India even knows what the hell those books are. They, by and large, worship a whole different set of invisible giants. I like the elephant guy myself, although all the pink stuff is a little faggy.
 
2005-05-04 05:22:48 PM  
Damn, I have a very good friend that is very Christian, and at first she told me the old testament did not apply to me as I was not Jewish (you know, I don't have to sacrifice a bird because I have my period), but when I brought up the death penalty, she referred to the old testament, the whole eye for an eye thing. But in the new testament I am told to love my enemies, and judgement is not mine (somewhere in Corinthians). The Bible is filled with contradictions. For everything you find in the Bible there is an opposite. And the reason she is a very good friend of mine, I can point this out to her and we can have conversation about it without blowing each other up.
 
2005-05-04 05:23:08 PM  
Bullshiat. Jesus specifically said that not one penstroke from the old law was to be removed until heaven and Earth are destroyed.

He also appeared to violate the old law. There must me more too it than what you see at first glance.


Jesus also picked food with his disciples on the sabbath. When questioned about it, he said basically that the sabbath is for the people, the people are not FOR the sabbath.

Supposedly his sacrifice ended the sacrifices relied up on in the old testament, so those factors, lumped in with many other things he said (See: you have been told and eye for an eye, but I say turn the other cheek) pretty much solidify Jesus as a reformer. The new testament doesn't chunk the OT in the trash, but it does dramatically reform it.

Either way, this story is about people in India, where it is often believed a woman would be better dead than raped, so I'm not overly suprised the judge gave her the option, as moronic and sick as it is by western standards.
 
2005-05-04 05:24:02 PM  
slesfo: If you actually read the thing in context, it's clear it is not consensual. The consensual case is described a couple of lines before that.
 
2005-05-04 05:24:13 PM  
jst3p:

He also appeared to violate the old law. There must me more too it than what you see at first glance.

Simple, he wasn't the son of god and the Jews were right.

Or better yet, he's just a farking man and neither of the regilions mean anything.
 
2005-05-04 05:24:16 PM  
How did the Bible, the Torah, et al get in this thread??

Because on FARK, if the Bible or Christianity can in any remote way be brought up it will be. Then it will be mocked. I think it is mandatory or something.
 
2005-05-04 05:25:36 PM  
ok.

chew on these. and then i'm out.

"i have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it."

jesus never broke any of the laws. not even sabbath. people accused him of it, and he changed some ideas about what it meant to break sabbath, but he never broke it.
 
2005-05-04 05:26:03 PM  
Simple, he wasn't the son of god and the Jews were right.

Or better yet, he's just a farking man and neither of the regilions mean anything.


That would be one possible explanation. I have another idea but to each his own.

I find it interesting how hard believers try to tear down my faith thought. If you really don't believe then isn't my belief harmless to you?

I am not speaking for those trying to legislate thier beliefs, I am only speaking about me individually.
 
2005-05-04 05:27:44 PM  
jst3p: Um, maybe because people brought up the "if you rape her you have to marry her" thing, and people pointed out that particular law came not from India, but from the Bible?
 
2005-05-04 05:27:52 PM  
No that was Jesus,, really
in the sixties and always, hippies are gooood.
 
2005-05-04 05:31:27 PM  
jst3p: Um, maybe because people brought up the "if you rape her you have to marry her" thing, and people pointed out that particular law came not from India, but from the Bible?

Are these people Christian? Then what the old testament says is not really relevant to the thread is it? But here it is..
 
2005-05-04 05:31:37 PM  
Um, maybe because people brought up the "if you rape her you have to marry her" thing, and people pointed out that particular law came not from India, but from the Bible?

Whether or not this originally came from the bible, this is a concept that is upheld culturally all over the east. When i was living in New Zealand there were a lot of immigrants from different eastern countries and I was amazed with the way they spoke of rape victims...as if they were already dead.

Like slavery, where it comes from isn't as important as who is keeping it alive and well.
 
2005-05-04 05:31:43 PM  
jst3p If you really don't believe then isn't my belief harmless to you? I am not speaking for those trying to legislate thier beliefs, I am only speaking about me individually.


I agree. Individually it's your personal belief. Doesn't matter to me. Only those who crave power in the name of their Lord should be smited!
 
2005-05-04 05:31:43 PM  
I am so sorry to any Jewish people I may have offended in my previous post. I know you do not sacrifice a bird when you have your period. It was just an (very poor) example of the differences (sp=drinking) in Judaisism (sp, damn it goes downhill with vodka) between the Jewish and Christian community. Kind of like Christians are better because we accepted Jesus, even though the Jewish abide by much stricter laws. And are Gods chosen people. Damn, I drink to early.
 
2005-05-04 05:33:14 PM  
wow, just about anything can become a religious flamewar

/religion suck-diddly-ucks
 
2005-05-04 05:34:02 PM  
xarlos

"Bailiff, whack his pee-pee."

Okay, I think we need to be a bit more specific...

/inserts the word "off"
 
2005-05-04 05:35:16 PM  
He also appeared to violate the old law. There must me more too it than what you see at first glance.

As I understand it, he didn't violate the law. He reinterpreted it. In some cases, making things less strict, in others, more strict. In every case that I know of, it was in response to attempts to trap and/or discredit him.

In every case I know of, what he said pissed off the people who had exploited the current law to their own benefit... who happened to be the same ones trying to trap him in his words... which really only resulted in making them try harder to trap him. I don't think they ever did.

At least this is how I understand it... I wasn't there, I could be wrong.
 
2005-05-04 05:35:25 PM  

I agree. Individually it's your personal belief. Doesn't matter to me. Only those who crave power in the name of their Lord should be smited!


I know this will be hard for you to believe, but I agree with you.

Considering Jesus claimed the blessed included the meek, the humble, and the poor I wonder how so many Christians can justify being so puffed up and power hungry.

It really boggles my mind...
 
2005-05-04 05:35:43 PM  
i've seen videos in turkish news showing rapists in afghanistan getting machine gunned by relatives of the victim, or rapists in saudi arabia getting stoned to death. these facts can lead us to 2 conclusions, 1; muslim society is usually appropiately brutal towards rapists and 2; turkish news is hardcore.

as a final observation let me say that stoning is one of the worst ways to die(the worst i've heard is shaka zulu putting a woman in a tent with a hungry hyena and sealing her in, 3 days to die screaming all the way), seeing it even on television is a very unsettling experience, it gets imprinted in your brain.
 
2005-05-04 05:37:54 PM  
bbcrackmonkey, where are you? I wanna hear more about this "4 witnesses thing"...

He also referred to Sharia law, claiming "So in effect, the vast majority of rapes in the Islamic world are never reported..."

I never knew that the 800,000,000+ muslims living in non-arab states practiced Sharia. Does Hu Jintao know his government has been replaced?
 
2005-05-04 05:39:09 PM  
"You were so romantic when we first met"
"I raped you!"
"well, at first..."

-Yellowbeard
 
2005-05-04 05:39:29 PM  
You know what really sucks? Female genital mutilation. If you really want to puke about something, that is it.
 
2005-05-04 05:40:19 PM  
I think in Brazil.. or maybe Portugal.. one of those countries... rapists can get off if they agree to marry the victim. My aunt tried to adopt a baby that was the result of a rape like that.

The victim was the daughter of a rich business owner guy, and the guy who raped her basically told her flat out that he was going to marry her and take over her dad's company. She turned down the offer for marriage, but he still got off because he was willing to marry her. Win/win for the rapist, lose/lose for the girl in this case.

I'm glad the US is a country that punishes rape for rape. Big, hairy prison rape. Hopefully without lube.
 
2005-05-04 05:41:03 PM  
gunslinger19
I saw a show about that, just about puked, but I changed the channel instead. FGM is not cool, it's even less cool then rape, and in my opinion a lot more violating for a woman.
 
2005-05-04 05:42:17 PM  
loki see loki do:

"You were so romantic when we first met"
"I raped you!"
"well, at first..."

-Yellowbeard


I love that movie, got to see if it's out on DVD. That and Eric the Viking.
 
2005-05-04 05:43:17 PM  
jst3p:

Considering Jesus claimed the blessed included the meek, the humble, and the poor I wonder how so many Christians can justify being so puffed up and power hungry.

It really boggles my mind...


Confirmation Bias. People read the bible not wanting to know what they should do but to confirm what they've already decided.
 
2005-05-04 05:43:53 PM  
I know its off topic, kind of. Still a form of sexual abuse, that does not get the attention it deserves.
 
2005-05-04 05:45:20 PM  

Confirmation Bias. People read the bible not wanting to know what they should do but to confirm what they've already decided.


Many do. But if you care to look hard enough (not saying you should) you will find that there are some who read it and say "Man, thats tough. I don't like all of it but I will try and do it."
 
2005-05-04 05:45:51 PM  
Damn, I really like to stick to thread at hand, I do, but one thing leads to another.....
Just one person check out female genital mutilation, please.
 
2005-05-04 05:47:01 PM  
Regardless, this dude is a sick fark.
 
2005-05-04 05:48:27 PM  
Damn, I really like to stick to thread at hand, I do, but one thing leads to another.....
Just one person check out female genital mutilation, please.


Yeah, thats some messed up stuff. Glad that one isn't in the Bible as we would never live that one down :P


I saw on some TV special that some tribes in Africa still do it with a sharp rock.

*shudder*
 
2005-05-04 05:49:53 PM  
jst3p

If you really don't believe then isn't my belief harmless to you?

I am not speaking for those trying to legislate thier beliefs, I am only speaking about me individually.


Indeed, why argue over anything then? Pfft...

Why should you try to convert anyone to *your* faith? Because you actually give a little bit of a shiat about people, and you think your way of life is better and they will be better off for it. Or you want them to at least critically consider the option and think about it. Many atheists are just as serious and want to talk about it for the same reason. We can just come off as gruff because it's like banging our heads against a wall, usually, and we get frustrated.

What do you do in real life if you are not interested in people? You stop listening to them. So STFU and quit responding to them. "Why do people keep arguing with me?" It takes two to argue, my friend. Oh, I know why, you actually care about this, and want to defend your faith as a witness to others? You think the way we talk is slanderous, foul, and non-sensical? Sounds a lot like what the atheists are doing above.

Or it could just be that Farkers are a bunch of sanctimonious, egotistical, blasphemous, smarter-than-thou assholes.

/why do I get the feeling most people assume the latter and go on
//some of use really do care about it
 
2005-05-04 05:50:06 PM  
moerty
the worst i've heard is shaka zulu putting a woman in a tent with a hungry hyena

What the hell are you talking about? Shaka Zulu was the Zulu warlord that took over most of South Africa in the first part of the twentieth century. I've never heard of this tent/hyena thing and it sounds made up.

/calling shenanigans
 
2005-05-04 05:51:18 PM  
Good grief everyone has it wrong.

The NT does not trump the OT, nor does not following the OT rules send you on the highway to hell.

Jesus came, explained in further detail what the purpose was behind Mosaic law and put the religious leaders of the time in there place because they had essentially subverted and twisted the law to their own ends.

See back then if you wanted to get to heaven (or glory with god at the time) you had to be pure at your time of death. This usually ment regular temple runs and burnt offerings whereby you would sacrifice a pure animal. The idea being that you were repenting of your sins and placing the punishment on the animal.

Then this Jesus guy came along and rocked the boat. Now instead of having to make temple and sacrifices. Just beleive in him.. he is the messiah.

So in short.. yes Mosaic law sorta still applies to christians but does not mean they are going to hell for breaking it.

I mean hell, I went to school for this crap but any of you could have taken 15 minutes to google the information before sticking your foot promptly in your mouth.
 
2005-05-04 05:51:32 PM  
...The hospital porter gouged her right eye and scarred the nurse's face...

Hey Hadji, leave the skull farking to the professionals.

/hands the one-way ticket to the conductor
 
2005-05-04 05:51:51 PM  
jst3p: Did you feel that tremor? We both ageed with each other on something.
I can handle it:)
 
2005-05-04 05:53:03 PM  
So, has Will Munny gone by to pick up Ned Logan yet?
 
2005-05-04 05:57:35 PM  
Why should you try to convert anyone to *your* faith? Because you actually give a little bit of a shiat about people, and you think your way of life is better and they will be better off for it. Or you want them to at least critically consider the option and think about it. Many atheists are just as serious and want to talk about it for the same reason. We can just come off as gruff because it's like banging our heads against a wall, usually, and we get frustrated.

What do you do in real life if you are not interested in people? You stop listening to them. So STFU and quit responding to them. "Why do people keep arguing with me?" It takes two to argue, my friend. Oh, I know why, you actually care about this, and want to defend your faith as a witness to others?


I guess I see the difference being this: If you aren't told about salvation and don't accept Christ as your savior from my point of view you don't enjoy eternal bliss.

If you don't believe me how does my life become better by converting to your point of view? Can't I just be just as happy as you believing something that will not affect me? Is there any positive change at all?

That being said I don't evangalize much because most people have already heard and rejected the Good News. And preaching to those people just pisses them off. It has no likelyhood of bearing fruit. I only say this so that you know I am not one of "those".


You think the way we talk is slanderous, foul, and non-sensical? Sounds a lot like what the atheists are doing above.


I don't think it is any of those things. I just don't understand the agenda to unconvert the Christians. I was previously an athiest. I thought the whole thing was full of crap. That last thing I would waste my time doing during that period of my life would have been arguing with Christians.

Or it could just be that Farkers are a bunch of sanctimonious, egotistical, blasphemous, smarter-than-thou assholes.

Some, not all. I don't even think most.
 
2005-05-04 05:58:20 PM  
gunslinger19

You know what really sucks? Female genital mutilation. If you really want to puke about something, that is it.

Indeed. And it's such an outrage that this outdated, repressive procedure is performed thousands of times a day in hospitals right here in our own country.

Oh wait, you said female genital mutilation.

Never mind.
 
2005-05-04 05:58:40 PM  
He told the court in the capital New Delhi he was willing to wed her as "no one would be ready to due to the stigma".

Oh that's nice.. "I farked her up so can I keep her?"
Bring on the pineapple
 
2005-05-04 05:58:52 PM  
jst3p: Did you feel that tremor? We both ageed with each other on something.
I can handle it:)


Since we are both "always right" type people it was bound to happen eventuallt ;)
 
2005-05-04 06:02:30 PM  
jst3p:I guess I see the difference being this: If you aren't told about salvation and don't accept Christ as your savior from my point of view you don't enjoy eternal bliss.
If you don't believe me how does my life become better by converting to your point of view? Can't I just be just as happy as you believing something that will not affect me? Is there any positive change at all?

It is simply your point of view though right ? Doesn't make it factual.
and as long as you are happy.selah!
 
2005-05-04 06:04:08 PM  
jst3p:Since we are both "always right" type people it was bound to happen eventuallt ;)


You got it!
 
2005-05-04 06:04:27 PM  
Forty-Three
Female mutilation is the removing of the clitoris, which means no orgasm. Which is different than being able to reproduce.
 
2005-05-04 06:06:55 PM  
It is simply your point of view though right ? Doesn't make it factual.

If it were "fact" it wouldn't be faith. (That one makes my head spin sometimes). I will share my faith with someone if it is appropriate but to claim it is fact without tangible evidence is just silly.
 
2005-05-04 06:08:52 PM  
Cubicle Jockey:

bbcrackmonkey, where are you? I wanna hear more about this "4 witnesses thing"...

He also referred to Sharia law, claiming "So in effect, the vast majority of rapes in the Islamic world are never reported..."


from a BBC article

"What was particularly outrageous in the law was that a woman who reports she has been raped will be charged for slanderous accusation and flogged 80 lashes if she is unable to prove the rape," she says.

"Under the huddud law you have to produce four pious male Muslim eyewitnesses in order to prove illicit sex has taken place and it's impossible."

Perversely, if there were four witnesses to a rape, they would have been accessories to the crime.


But it's easy to prove that some woman had sex outside marriage


She was sentenced to death in March 2002 by a Sharia court in northern Nigeria. Her crime was getting pregnant out of wedlock. The man has not been charged. But she is now appealing against being buried up to her neck and stoned to death.


The laws are completely farked up.
 
2005-05-04 06:09:32 PM  
If by "marry" you mean, house, feed, cloth, pay for all expenses for the rest of her life and stay the fark out of her way, then I say

Marry him!

Otherwise, it could still be a nice bit of revenge. Leave him gussing for the rest of his life what day he'll wake up with his cock chopped off or his tea poisoned.
 
2005-05-04 06:10:03 PM  
Forty-Three

How is circumcision repressive?

And it may be outdated, but I have it on good authority that some ladies like the "classic" outdated look.
 
2005-05-04 06:10:22 PM  
jst3p
On that note, I don't think any religion can be proven as fact. What intersts me are the simmilarities in religions.
 
2005-05-04 06:12:35 PM  
On that note, I don't think any religion can be proven as fact. What intersts me are the simmilarities in religions.

If it were not "blashpemous" I might wonder if it is the same God revealing Himself in slightly different ways to different groups of His children.

But Christians aren't allowed to wonder such things ;)
 
2005-05-04 06:12:36 PM  
I am sorry Forty-Three, if it took you response wrong. I thought you meant a vasectomey. Circumcision still allows for orgasm.
 
2005-05-04 06:12:43 PM  
jst3p

Why should you try to convert anyone to *your* faith? Because you actually give a little bit of a shiat about people, and you think your way of life is better and they will be better off for it.

I guess I see the difference being this: If you aren't told about salvation and don't accept Christ as your savior from my point of view you don't enjoy eternal bliss.


That is a big difference. But then again, since the athiest believes that this life is all there is, we should make the most of it, and we see religion as holding back the possibilities of *this* life. I guess I am just trying to say that they are acting from most of the same impulses and reasons you are.

I believe that the misattribution of hate and malice to others are the cornerstones of human misery.

/I should write that down...
 
2005-05-04 06:13:23 PM  
Helosiac
Did you read the rest of my post? I understand it's very Heritical.. I don't necessarily consider myself a Christian (though Christ was a very, very impressive person.)

Playerslight
If by that, you mean I'm going to hell...
*Shrugs*.

If God is the type that would send someone to an eternity of torment, for making a wrong choice out of billions within a finite life span.

F*CK HIM. With a Spoon .

There, I've said if. If God is some petty being of Hate, Spite, and Vanity, to the point where he'd damn Ghandi because he had the wrong beliefs?

F*ck him. I believe that we should do what's right because it is right, not because of some supposed reward or punishment, and I will not let fear sway me to follow a path of hatred and divisiveness.

I'll freely admit that I don't *know* any of the answers. I have beliefe, however vauge it might be, butI know diddly-squat when it comes to higher beings. Never met one. Never seen any evidence. I could very well be wrong! Doesn't really bother me, though, as I'm more curious than afraid.

(Spiritual and Theological curiosity seem to scare hard-line athiests and hard-line religious people alike, don't they?)
 
2005-05-04 06:14:56 PM  
And for the grammar nazis, my little aphorism should be "is" and not "are" (preview be damned!)

/was a grammar nazi
 
2005-05-04 06:17:17 PM  
(Spiritual and Theological curiosity seem to scare hard-line athiests and hard-line religious people alike, don't they?)

I like it. Well said Gungaden!
 
2005-05-04 06:18:04 PM  
If prison in India is like it is in Egypt, then I'd be in favor of a prison sentence over the death penalty.

In Egyptian prisons (according to a friend who is Egyptian) they feed you rotten food, work you very hard and beat you often. I don't think the prisoners are expected to live more than a few years. A ten-year prison sentence is basically a slow, horrible death sentence.
 
2005-05-04 06:18:35 PM  
She should have married him and then cut his wang off.
 
2005-05-04 06:19:27 PM  
If it were not "blashpemous" I might wonder if it is the same God revealing Himself in slightly different ways to different groups of His children.
But Christians aren't allowed to wonder such things ;)


Me thinks it would be more blasphemous to not give God enough credit for such creative thinking.
 
2005-05-04 06:19:38 PM  

That is a big difference. But then again, since the athiest believes that this life is all there is, we should make the most of it, and we see religion as holding back the possibilities of *this* life. I guess I am just trying to say that they are acting from most of the same impulses and reasons you are.


I suppose. I stil don't think it would make it worth my time to try and talk someone out of Christianity.
 
2005-05-04 06:20:48 PM  
Because Islamic law is so humae to rape victims:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=5676

"Traditional Islamic law, which is still very much in force in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran, Sudan, most (if not all) of post-Taliban Afghanistan, and elsewhere, completely disregards the testimony of women in cases of a sexual nature. Aside from physical evidence, the only way to establish rape is by the testimony of four male witnesses (who, by the way, must be Muslims in good standing) who actually saw the act itself. Without these witnesses and a confession from the accused rapist, the victim will stand condemned by her very accusation: she wasnt raped, so she must be guilty of zina."

http://www.suntimes.co.za/2003/01/05/politics/pol04.asp

"A businesswoman who accused three men of gang rape has been arrested in Dubai and faces trial on a charge of adultery.

Touria Tiouli, 39, from Limoges, in France, has had her passport confiscated and cannot leave Dubai after being charged under the United Arab Emirates's sharia law. This declares any sexual relationship outside marriage to be illegal.

Tiouli was on a business trip in October when, she alleges, she was raped by three men who offered her a lift home from a bar .

She reported the attack immediately to the Dubai police, who, after investigating her claim, arrested her rather than those she accused.

One of the men admitted to having "consensual sex" with Tiouli, which made her, in the eyes of Dubai prosecutors , guilty of both adultery and making a false rape accusation. She could face up to 18 months in prison. None of the men has been charged. "


I love all of you Farkers who are pointing out a verse of Deuteronomy, which is in force in no Christian or Jewish nation anywhere, and saying that "Christianity supports this". Yet you turn around and say that sharia protects womens rights based on one verse of the Quran, and saying "Islam supports victims of rape": but in fact in every Islamic country a woman who claims to be raped and cannot PROVE she was raped is PUNISHED for adultery--but that doesn't count because there is one verse in the Quran that you think protects women.

I don't understand what the hell is wrong with you.
 
2005-05-04 06:20:58 PM  
I wonder as I wonder, out under the stars....

Gotta go not!
 
2005-05-04 06:21:28 PM  
Smeegle and Jst3p,
If you knew someone really well and 99 times out of 99 they told you the truth, would you have "faith" next time that they were telling the truth again the hundreth time? Even if you hadn't seen it for yourself yet? Wouldn't it depend on your past experience with that person, and your knowledge of their personality and character? To me it seems that is why Jesus said, this means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you(getting to know), the only true God, and the one you sent forth, Jesus Christ.
 
2005-05-04 06:23:58 PM  
Solia

You are preaching to the choir here. I am a person of faith.

Then again I maintain the athiests are persons of great faith as well.
 
2005-05-04 06:25:18 PM  
Solia
I take it on faith that the creator has presented him/her self to many people in many forms. That is all I need.
I am happy with that. The Cosmos is wonderful and mysterious. Life is an adventure and I am not afraid to venture forth with appreciation and curiosity.
I believe in the validity of many forms of spirituality.
 
2005-05-04 06:25:40 PM  
Felgraf - Christ was a very, very impressive person.

Don't like to toot my own horn, but I was the first person who managed to resurrect himself. Its nice to get some props for my achievements.
 
2005-05-04 06:29:30 PM  

Don't like to toot my own horn, but I was the first person who managed to resurrect himself. Its nice to get some props for my achievements.


I hear you still owe the 13th apostle 20 bucks...
 
2005-05-04 06:31:46 PM  
gunslinger19

Female mutilation is the removing of the clitoris

Yeah, I know what it is, and I'm not saying it isn't wrong. I'm just saying that both procedures are comparable, so if you're angry about one gender's mutilation, you should be angry about the other gender's.

which means no orgasm.

I have it on good authority that that particular part of the female anatomy is responsible for the majority, but not all of the fun since it is the most sensitive bit. I see this as analagous to male genital mutilation in that parts are removed to reduce pleasure in an attempt to make the act more utilitarian than fun.

Which is different than being able to reproduce.

I'm not sure exactly what you wer getting at here. Could you please clarify?
 
2005-05-04 06:32:31 PM  
The deal with the passage about rape (and most of the laws in Leviticus) is that they are cultural as well as spiritual. The reason its written that way is because in that culture the victim would no longer be a virgin and therefore was undesirable to marry. Women at the time had no rights, the only support system they had was in their husbands. Therefore the law was the man who took advantage had to marry the woman to ensure she was supported.

Its very difficult to understand (even for me) the mentality and I'm glad that women have a support system now where such things are no longer nessicary.
 
2005-05-04 06:33:05 PM  
Jesus_

You did not resurrect yourself. God resurrected you (you know, the Father). The one that Jesus himself prayed to?
(I suspect you are not really Jesus.)
 
2005-05-04 06:35:31 PM  
Jesus__
Well, I was talking more about the Ghandi-esque type views, but the self-ressurection was pretty true. That's a contigency spell, isn't it? Did you lose a level, or was it True Ressurection?
 
2005-05-04 06:35:56 PM  
Yeah, I know what it is, and I'm not saying it isn't wrong. I'm just saying that both procedures are comparable, so if you're angry about one gender's mutilation, you should be angry about the other gender's.

If you dont see the difference between removing a foreskin and removing a clitoris you must not understand one, the other or both very well.


How many cut men feel mutilated? Maybe there are a few but I doubt it is a significant number.

Ask women who have had the procedure done to them and I bet you will get an overwhelming percentage.

Then again if you ask the women in societies where they are repressed your answer might not be accurate.
 
2005-05-04 06:38:50 PM  
wtf chistianity being separate from the OT? Who the hell has been putting up all those giant ten commandments in courthouses then? Jammies?
 
2005-05-04 06:40:45 PM  
Who the hell has been putting up all those giant ten commandments in courthouses then? Jammies?

Christians who don't read the Bible much apparently.
 
2005-05-04 06:41:11 PM  
jst3p

How is circumcision repressive?

There's no medical reason to do it. It's just a remnant of a time when certain religious organizations used sex to keep women and men in line.

And it may be outdated, but I have it on good authority that some ladies like the "classic" outdated look.

I'm sure that in areas of the world where female genital mutilation is common, that some men like the "classic 'outdated' look" in their women. What's your point?
 
2005-05-04 06:43:19 PM  
All cultures are equally worthy of respect! Also, Western materialism is TEH EVIL!!!!!!
 
2005-05-04 06:47:16 PM  
How is circumcision repressive?

There's no medical reason to do it. It's just a remnant of a time when certain religious organizations used sex to keep women and men in line.


Are you cut? Do you feel repressed because of it? I don't in the least and I don't know any guy who does.

Female mutilation removes the ability for most women to enjoy sex. Because they aren't allowed to. That is repressive.

Circumcision is a cosmetic difference. We still enjoy it to completion every time.


I'm sure that in areas of the world where female genital mutilation is common, that some men like the "classic 'outdated' look" in their women. What's your point?


My point is circumcision is a cosmetic difference that may actually carry some health and hygine benefits.

A clitorectomy leaves the woman in most cases unable to reach orgasm.

If you can't see the difference you are blind or willfuly blind. Take your pick.
 
2005-05-04 06:47:19 PM  
I don't know about you guys, but I sure don't like rapists! No sir, I don't.
 
2005-05-04 06:48:40 PM  
Dear Lord what a suggestion to make to the poor woman!!!!! Like this jack*** deserves any break whatsoever, other then maybe a few broken bones. At least I doubt any crap like this would be suggested here in America, but you never know. Seems like there's more stupid shiat here every day!
 
2005-05-04 06:52:39 PM  
At least I doubt any crap like this would be suggested here in America, but you never know. Seems like there's more stupid shiat here every day!

Not this but women are still being pretty much forced to marry as teenagers if they get pregnant in rural deeply religious areas.

Sad really. As much as I love the Lord I would never force my daughter to marry anyone. She made one mistake that she will have to live with for the rest of her life, granted. Why force her into another one.
 
2005-05-04 06:53:02 PM  
jst3p
How many cut men feel mutilated? Maybe there are a few but I doubt it is a significant number.

Ask women who have had the procedure done to them and I bet you will get an overwhelming percentage.

Then again if you ask the women in societies where they are repressed your answer might not be accurate.


In societies that perpetrate female circumcision/mutilation, it is most often the women who want to perpetuate the practice. They believe the nonsense about it being good for them and better for their health and it's most often the men who object, as they notice the difference between the circumcised and the uncircumcised.

In societies that perpetrate male circumcision....
 
2005-05-04 06:55:41 PM  
gunslinger19

I am sorry Forty-Three, if it took you response wrong. I thought you meant a vasectomey.

No worries.

Circumcision still allows for orgasm.

So does the female procedure, technically. But it greatly reduces the chances of one happening and greatly reduces the overall fun of the act. Fundamentally, the female procedure is no different than the male procedure as they are both outdated religious/cultural practices that have no purpose other than to reduce the pleasure of copulation. Any more-detailed comparison between the male and female procedures is invalid because the male and female organs and sexual responses are both very different - it's apples to oranges.
 
2005-05-04 06:56:33 PM  
You are talking about a certain percentage of Americans there - then generalizing to all of us.

Kind of like how you and several others did, and do, every time a non-Christian country is mentioned.....
 
2005-05-04 06:57:11 PM  
y'know, i kinda hoped he was just joking...

that's just sick.
 
2005-05-04 06:58:34 PM  
In societies that perpetrate male circumcision....

I have actually researched circumcision pretty extensively and the medicial community is split right down the middle on several factors. No one seems to be saying with authority that one side has more benefits or drawbacks than the other.

If you have evidence I have not seen by all means share, but as far as I can tell it is a "take it or leave it" issue.

Being cut has some pros and some cons.
Not being cut has some pros and some cons.

They pretty much even out.


Female circumcision has zero benefits and quite a few cons.
You can debate the merit of male circumcision all you want but to make a direct comparison to female circ. is just ignorant.
 
2005-05-04 07:01:15 PM  
Fundamentally, the female procedure is no different than the male procedure as they are both outdated religious/cultural practices that have no purpose other than to reduce the pleasure of copulation.

As far as I can tell there is no concrete evidence that male circimcision reduces the pleasure of copulation.

If it does, then thank God I am cut. Not to be graphic but if my "staying power" is improved because of that I would hate to see what it would be without.
 
2005-05-04 07:01:39 PM  
This sounds like a damn good idea for a TV show. They could call it "Kate and the rapist" or something like that. Each week there could be wacky hijynx about the rapist saying something that could be taken the wrong way, you know, like three's company only without Susan Summers. Fox are you listening?
/sarcastic and yet I can see something that lame happening
 
2005-05-04 07:08:44 PM  
jst3p:

"Not this but women are still being pretty much forced to marry as teenagers if they get pregnant in rural deeply religious areas."

Now that is true, but at least that's the parents perpetrating that BS on their own children - mostly to save face themselves, I'm sure. Not that it makes it any easier on those particular children, of course, but at least it isn't the LAW sitting up there offering that "suggestion". Still awfully screwed up though. Having been married once, I wouldn't wish for ANYONE to have to get married for any reason other than true love. Anything else is destined to fail...
 
2005-05-04 07:12:16 PM  
Since when is India a muslim country?
 
2005-05-04 07:17:28 PM  
jst3p

Are you cut? Do you feel repressed because of it? I don't in the least and I don't know any guy who does.

Female mutilation removes the ability for most women to enjoy sex. Because they aren't allowed to. That is repressive.


The societies in which the female procedure is practiced still have a social structure set up that represses females and the female procedure is only part of why "they aren't allowed to" in those societies. In our society, the social structures that repressed men and women have mostly fallen by the wayside and circumcision is a remnant of that era.

My point is circumcision is a cosmetic difference that may actually carry some health and hygine benefits.

I don't buy the health/hygiene arguments. Certainly people who undergo the procedure have less medical problems (infections or whatever) but that's because they're missing that body part. This is analogous to saying that having your feet amputated has health benefits because it reduces your chances of getting gout.

A clitorectomy leaves the woman in most cases unable to reach orgasm.

The male has to have one because otherwise reproduction would not be possible. Even though he still can have one, his enjoyment of the act has been reduced as with the female. It's moot to say which procedure reduces pleasure more because the male/female organs are so different as to make comparison impossible.

If you can't see the difference you are blind or willfuly blind. Take your pick.

The difference is a result of the biological differences between the genders and the differences between the societies we are talking about. The cultural/religious reasons that drive the practice are the same.
 
2005-05-04 07:28:27 PM  
i say he should be hanged by his wang till it is slowly cut off by the thin dental floss, his balls removed, and forced into un lubed anal sex with a water buffalo, but that's just my woman's perspective.
 
2005-05-04 07:35:45 PM  
impressed everyone assumes it was a muslim guy.

//sterotypes reaffirmed
 
2005-05-04 07:36:33 PM  
India, my India. Why are you now a part of my personal Axis of Evil?
 
2005-05-04 07:38:49 PM  
jst3p

As far as I can tell there is no concrete evidence that male circimcision reduces the pleasure of copulation.

As far as I can tell, there's no conclusive evidence either way regarding circumcision, because there has been no definitive research done and nobody really wants to make a big stink about it. The major medical associations officially offer no recommendation on the procedure. To me, this says that the medical community wants to stay away from what is essentially a religious issue. There is no other medical procedure as widespread as circumcision that is not endorsed by the medical community. So why do so many parents have a medical procedure performed on their kids that is not recommended by doctors?
 
2005-05-04 07:44:23 PM  
That judge needs to be fired. In the end the rapist got a life
term.
 
2005-05-04 07:47:51 PM  
Chinese Press Agency, Xinhua the Shanghai Star carried the headline: "Pakistani mother vows to defend raped daughter", and reported that Shiraka Bibi's daughter Zafran was languishing on death row with her young baby, born after the result of being repeatedly raped by her brother-in-law. According to the report, Zafran was married to Naimat Khan (jailed for life for murder in 1992) in an arranged marriage 13 years ago. Zafran then became the victim of repeated sexual abuse by her brother-in-law. But the law offered her no protection, as she was unable to prove rape by producing the required four male witnesses, and was instead found guilty of adultery."

HELIOSC, go fark yourself you stupid farking idiot. Do I need to cite more sources of Islamic law? Islam requires 4 witnesses for a female to prove rape, otherwise it is considered consensual sex and she is to be stoned for adultery.

What's that sound I hear? I believe it is your argument sinking into the Marianna trench, biatch.
 
2005-05-04 07:58:50 PM  
heliosc:

bbcrackmonkey, where are you? I wanna hear more about this "4 witnesses thing"...

Dipshiat.


Dipshiat? Did you just call, mwah... a dipshiat?

"The failure to draw a distinction between rape and zina in the hudud law of many Muslim countries have led to rape victims being charged for zina and qazaf because they are not able to produce the four male witnesses required to prove that they are not consenting parties to zina."
http://www.sistersinislam.org.my/letterstoeditors/090502.htm

[image from foxhome.com too old to be available]

Now who's the dipshiat?
 
2005-05-04 08:00:02 PM  
KILL HIM WITH FIRE.
 
2005-05-04 08:01:41 PM  
jst3p

So an omnicient being gives you a book that contains laws to follow that will save you from being tortured.

But you find out there are thousands of often exactly contradictory interpretations by people smarter than you, and all just as sincere in their desire for the truth.

How do you pick which one is correct and what would be the point of giving you the book in this case?

Is this confusion not proof that god, the bible, and christ are a pack of lies?
 
2005-05-04 08:06:16 PM  
"Women hesitate to report rape because how and where would they find the non existent and if present four reluctant witnesses to their rape. Under the Hudood Ordinance, a man must confess to rape or four Muslim males of good moral character need to bear witness against the rapist in order to prove the womans claim."

http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00004983&channel=civic%20cen​ter&thre shold=1&layout=0&order=0&start=230&end=239&page=1

[image from dimmona.shackspace.com too old to be available]
 
2005-05-04 08:13:43 PM  
Can we get this thread back to Luke and Laura? sheesh.
 
2005-05-04 08:27:46 PM  
This woman is lucky her case actually got to court. The Indian court system is so bad and rape has such a stigma attached to it that RARELY do rapists face a judge. I can't believe he had the audacity to ask to marry her. Then again, this is India--I guess I CAN believe it.

/Story reminded me of Luke and Laura too. Jonathan Jackson, where ARE you??????
 
2005-05-04 08:38:11 PM  
rodeofrog: For some reason, Atomic Orgy, I don't imagine Utah's losing a lot of sleep over your opinion of it.

For some reason, rodeofrog, I don't think political or geographic regions like Utah are able to sleep.
 
2005-05-04 08:41:38 PM  
Contrabulous Flabtraption: Hmmm...I read the headline and figured it had to be a Muslim country. And turns out I was right.

There are two things wrong with this. First, as many others have pointed out, the Muslim Quran specifically forbids this behavior, and the Christian Bible specifically allows it.

Second, India isn't a Muslim country.

But thanks for playing the "bigot" game.
 
2005-05-04 08:44:26 PM  
bbcrackmonkey
I think helosiac's argument was that the law doesn't stem from Islam: It stems from the cultures and traditions of many of the Arab nomads who wound up adopting Islam, and, thus, settled the areas in the middle east, and that these laws are not caused by Islam, and could easily exist if Islam had never existed.

I.E., it's not really 'Islamic Law', in the fact that it's not really based on the Koran.

At least, that's what I think he was arguing. Not that this doesn't happen (it does. Which is FARKED UP.). But that Islam is not necessarily the cause.
 
2005-05-04 08:48:48 PM  
I don't know if this has been said or not, but here goes. At first, I thought this was in Arizona. You see, the legislature recently defeated a bill that would have elevated spousal rape to the same status as any other rape. You actually get more time in Arizona for organizing a dog fight than for raping your wife. Go, Republican legislators, go!

/had to fuel the flamewar that I'm too lazy to read
 
2005-05-04 08:55:05 PM  
mechagooch: Who is the hot chick with Michael Bolton's cousin at the beginning of this thread.

That's Genie Francis, playing the Lolita-esque character of Laura. Jeez, there aren't enough good Lolitas on soaps anymore.
 
2005-05-04 09:01:04 PM  
Felgraf:

2005-05-04 08:44:26 PM Felgraf

bbcrackmonkey
I think helosiac's argument was that the law doesn't stem from Islam: It stems from the cultures and traditions of many of the Arab nomads who wound up adopting Islam, and, thus, settled the areas in the middle east, and that these laws are not caused by Islam, and could easily exist if Islam had never existed.

I.E., it's not really 'Islamic Law', in the fact that it's not really based on the Koran.

At least, that's what I think he was arguing. Not that this doesn't happen (it does. Which is FARKED UP.). But that Islam is not necessarily the cause.


I think that's what he was arguing too.
 
2005-05-04 09:06:21 PM  
If, as the radical feminists, say, that "All sex is rape", then isn't raping a woman as innocent as having consentual sex with her? And if you weren't raping here, wouldn't she be at home, raping the Birkenstocks off of her latest research assistant?

/not true, just sayin'
 
2005-05-04 09:21:45 PM  
Actually this solution is in the Bible as well. If I remember right the rapist has to pay 50 pieces of silver to the family and marry the victim.

Sorry, can't remember where it is exactly.
 
2005-05-04 10:16:43 PM  
Regarding the claims of mistranslation in the Deuteronomy passage, they have no grounds to stand on.

Link

At that link, click on the C icon for the Hewbew lexicon.

As seen at the above link, in Hewbew the passage describes a woman being seized, captured, etc. by a man who then has sex with her. "Rape" is clearly an accurate translation.


Playerslight:Given what would have happened in leiu of this law 2000 years ago, where the rape victim would have been ostracized from society, the family would have disowned her, and she would have ended up destitute, was it not a better alternative to force the man to support the woman for the remainder of her life?

Talk about grasping. Are you satisfied with that rationalization? Wouldn't a better alternative be for Yahweh to forbid such things rather than command rape victims be sold to their attackers? And that's assuming events as you describe would actually occur, which I know of no reason to believe but that could stem from a lack of interest in Hebrew culture on my part.

You know, several years ago after some years as a layman in ministry I read the bible from cover to cover as a pretext to entering into training to become ordained. I found many things that were simply incompatible with any sense of morality I could view as goood and decent -- such as the Deuteronomy passage -- and a deity which was not the one I "knew." Rather than be satisfied by lame attempts at rationalization like the one you posted I reconsidered my religion, leaving it after 6-12 months.
 
2005-05-04 10:18:58 PM  
Okay, I have no idea how I misspelled 'Hebrew' twice and missed it on the proofread only to see it immediately when the comment had been posted.
 
2005-05-04 10:38:51 PM  
Leave the Koran, Bible and the Torah out of this - save it for a time when it happens where they are the most popular (Afghanistan or Utah)... and Hinduism and Buddhism forbid hurting any other being - no one has any right to judge another in Hindu thought - what u do is between you and God (or Natural Law).... u fark up, u suffer. Simple.

This ain't no religion... it's just one asshat raping a nurse, and another #%@%!!# asshat thinking that it could be made up.

/Hindu
//Indian
 
2005-05-04 10:45:46 PM  
Good point kmramki, good point.

/Buddhist
//Mutt (Bohemian, German, Swiss, Irish)
 
2005-05-04 10:58:32 PM  
Those of you defending Islam by saying that the Quran doesn't require four male witnesses to prove rape, and therefore Islam is not to blame for that provision in those countries that practice sharia, don't know what you are talking about.

Because the vast majority of of the population of those countries are observant Muslims, and presumably they know what their religion requires of them better than you do.

Oh, but you guys talking out your ass on Fark know better than 1500 years of Islamic scholarship.

So why don't you guys go to Pakistan and Nigeria and Dubai and explain to the locals that they are practicing their religion wrong by punishing a woman for adultery if she can't provide four male witnesses to say it was rape.

At least you're consistent, since you are alos telling Christians and Jews they practice their religion wrongly too.

Regardless of what you asshats think the Quran says, that a woman who cannot prove she was raped is guilty of adultery is what sharia law entails. And sharia is peculiar to Islam.

So I think you have to be a moron to say it has nothing to do with Islam.
 
2005-05-04 11:06:58 PM  
Listen, can we leave all the Christian/Muslim trolling out of this thread, we Hindus are feeling a little neglected. We like our bigotry unadulterated, if you don't mind.

Pricks
 
2005-05-05 02:52:27 AM  
Good Lord, WTF happened to this thread?

Shrikeangel, your post in particular is flooded with logical fallacies. The quality of your argument has been downgraded to junk-status. I'm not buying it and I can't recommend anyone else buying it either.

Regardless of what you asshats think the Quran says, that a woman who cannot prove she was raped is guilty of adultery is what sharia law entails. And sharia is peculiar to Islam.

Holy shiat. That's a piece of work.
 
2005-05-05 07:24:46 AM  
"Marry you? Why, sure I will! You can douse me in cooking oil and burn me later."

/fark me rigid
 
2005-05-05 09:22:17 AM  
I'm far too late to this thread, but I just want to set Forty-Three right on one thing. Circumcision and clitorectomy are not comparable on a physiological level. The clit and penis are /not that different/. A cliterectomy is the equivalent of getting your penis /chopped off/, or at least the entire head of it. If female circumcision meant getting a bit of the hood chopped off, then it would be the same. It's not.
 
2005-05-05 09:51:49 AM  
How did the bible get into....

To everyone in this thread that posted that line, I have anti-biotic cream and a band-aid for that nasty hook in your mouth.

/FARK has the best trolls
//where's Bevets when you need him?
 
2005-05-05 02:32:43 PM  
Mayhem_King, if it's so loaded with logical fallacies why don't you say what they are?

Your logical fallacy, of course, is saying that I'm "full of logical fallacies" without bothering to specify them, but let that go for a bit.

How about this. Why don't you find for me a non-Muslim country that has adopted sharia?

Sharia is peculiar to Islam. Sorry, buddy. And maybe the Quran may say something that you take to mean it doesn't support some of the tenets of sharia. But the Muslims who live in those countries do believe that sharia is an integral part of Islam, and they have 1500 years of scholarship and interpretation justifying that view. You may say they're wrong, but so what?

What you think the Quran means has nothing to do with what Muslims think it means. Of course not all Muslims are going to believe that, any more than all Christians believe that Jesus Christ really rose from the dead or that Mary was really a virgin--but that is not the point. Believeing that Christ rose from the dead and was born of a virgin is still a Christian belief, whether or not the Bible or history justifies it, and likewise with the Quranic basis of sharia.

Because many, if not most, Muslims believe they ought to be ruled by sharia law and a significant fraction actually do live under sharia law in their native countries.

I am not an Islamic scholar, and I personally do not think that the Quran justifies sharia. But I'm not stupid enough to think that every Muslim who believes otherwise is practicing their religion wrongly.

But you go right on to Iran, Qatar, Jordan, Nigeria, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia and explain to them that they have got their own religion wrong.

You might also bear in mind that asserting that someone is making a logical fallacy is not the same as demonstrating it.
 
2005-05-05 03:30:06 PM  
Female genital mutilation is an atrocity and is completely incomparable to male circumcision. The sensation a woman would feel during sex that has been robbed of her clitoris is equivalent to the lack of sensation a man would feel if his ENTIRE SHAFT AND HEAD of his penis were chopped off. Except for the pain. The excessive pain experienced due to the constant urinary tract infections, and the ripping of tissue during sex due to the vagina's attempt to heal itself. Usually, the vagina is sewed shut and is only cut open for childbirth. The women cannot control their bodily functions to the point that they pee on themselves constantly and cannot help it. Not to mention the horrid situation of menstruation each month. All the women who have been sewed up, and this is most of them, suffer serious, life threatening infections monthly. Little girls die from the procedure all the time. For anyone that has set forward the argument that women perpetuate this process themselves, this is due to it being one of the few positions of authority given to a woman amongst these village societies. Men do not perform the surgery, which is usually done using rusty, dirty blades. It is a sociological phenomenon that the women engage in this, as it gives some women a tiny bit of power in a misogynistic culture, and gives them more social currency, helping them marry later in life as a woman that has absolutely no interest in sex is considered more pure. Anyone that compares this living hell to male circumcision is a fool.
 
2005-05-05 10:45:09 PM  
Mayhem_King, if it's so loaded with logical fallacies why don't you say what they are?

You mean besides the ad hominems and the bad syllogism I italicized? If you knew what a logical fallacy was, you wouldn't have written an entire paragraph using them. Do you really want me to spend 20 min. diagraming your post for you?

Good try. Get your validation and attention elsewhere.

http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html

http://www.duniho.com/fergus/sillysyllogisms.html
 
2005-05-06 02:26:15 AM  
Mayhem_King, if you can't list the fallacies and explicitly decribe what they are, then you are just name-calling to try to discredit my argument without actually engaging it, which when done on the Internet is what we call trolling.

What you outlined was not a syllogism, but a declarative statement--in other words a proposition from which one could begin an argument, but not an argument in itself. Which, by the way, you have cited no information to refute. I asked you to name a non-Muslim country that has sharia as its legal code. You failed to do so. You instead chose to impugn my logic without using any yourself. You lose.

Sharia is peculiar to Islam--meaning that it is not a system that people of other religions have any reason to adopt--and it does require that a woman produce four male Muslim witnesses to prove rape, else risk being punished for adultery. This statment is what David Hume called "a matter of fact", as opposed to what he called "a realtion of ideas". Since it is a statement of what purports to be fact, it cannot logically be refuted anymore than the statement "it is raining now" can be logically refuted. It can only be empirically refuted. I have cited examples supporting that this statement is true, refer above to my post on the French woman raped in Dubai, and the link I posted referring to the women punished in Nigeria and Pakistan and Iran for being victims of rape.

You have cited nothing with which to challenge my statement of fact, rather you make noises about my "logic" and point to a statement of fact and call it a "syllogism". If you are capable of diagramming my post then please do. I have seen symbolic logic before and I can follow it.

In other words, put your money where your mouth is or shut up, because you are behaving like a pedantic and tiresome troll.
 
2005-05-06 02:48:49 AM  
I would say this is my argument, minus the abuse:

I) To understand a religion, it is not enough merely to know the text of any scriptures it may have, one must also consider the traditions and practices of the religion's adherents.

(Premise 1, defining "to understand a religion")


II) Among the traditions and practices of the adherents of Islam is sharia law; one of the provisions of which is that a woman who accuses a man of rape muct produce four male Muslim witnesses or risk being punished for adultery.

(Premise 2, an empirical statement about a particular religion)


III) Some people on Fark are saying that this provision of sharia is not truly part of Islam because it is not found in the Quran.

(Premise 3, an empirical statement about the some of the people posting in this thread.)


IV) Because these Farkers only cite the sacred text of Islam, without reference to the traditions and practices of the adherents of Islam, they do not understand Islam.

(Conclusion)

Suit you better?
 
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