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(ABC News)   Poll shows 70% of Americans broadly and strongly disapprove of federal intervention in the Terri Schiavo case, with sizable majorities saying Congress is overstepping its bounds for political gain   ( abcnews.go.com) divider line
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15019 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Mar 2005 at 3:52 PM (12 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2005-03-21 07:16:18 PM  
faethe
It IS exceedingly wierd for someone to go from full on agressive treatments, even experimental shiat, to 'well she wanted to die the whole time so now I am honoring her wishes'.

It's not unusual at all. Aggressive treatments were done when the husband was under the belief that she might recover. Eventually, the mounting evidence let him move past his denial, and simply accept the reality that his wife cannot get better. Once he accepted that everything that made her who she was is now dead, it's only logical to stop treatment.

And even people who want to be allowed to die will usually want treatments *if there is hope* of recovery. So it's quite possible for someone to aggressively treat when they think there is hope, then stop treatment when they realize there is none.
 
2005-03-21 07:16:44 PM  
HEY LOOK OVER THERE!(what the media just pulled on america)

Forget about the war, forget about ANWAR, forget about everything else. Some brain dead woman whose been dying for 15 yrs is dead! holy crap, national controversy!

We should be outraged over so much more.....

Forget about the genocide , a woman died in florida
 
2005-03-21 07:20:27 PM  
I'm so ready to drive over to Pinellas Park and smother her myself just to get this crap off the news.
 
2005-03-21 07:21:08 PM  
Those evil bastards, stopping a brain damaged woman from being starved to death... and just for political gain!

NEFARIOUS!
 
2005-03-21 07:22:13 PM  
"it is wise to always err on the side of life"
-- George W. Bush


And that's why as Governor of Texas, he commuted the sentence of every person on Death Row!

No wait, he only commuted one sentence during his six years as governor. And that was for serial killing scumbag Henry Lee Lucas, who may have killed HUNDREDS of innocent people during his reign of terror.

The rest of them have Bush's signature on their death warrants.

"Err on the side of life," INDEED.

/sickened
 
2005-03-21 07:22:36 PM  
I'm amazed there's even a discussion - Congress should KNOW this isn't their job. There is simply no way you can look at this case and come to the conclusion that government intervention is needed. And the legal precedents it sets! AUGH!
 
2005-03-21 07:23:26 PM  
Your search - let terri die shirt - did not match any documents.

/damn
 
2005-03-21 07:23:32 PM  
wrffr

Actually, no MRI or PET scans have ever been done on her


She's had a CT scan. CT is superior to MRI for this kind of imaging, although a lot depends on the models of machines the hospital has at its disposal. For this kind of large-scale tissue damage, CT, MRI, or PET are all sufficient to image it. High end CT is better for this task than high end MRI or PET but it all depends on what the hospital has.
 
2005-03-21 07:23:33 PM  
Is all of this partisan asshattery is making people sick?

Why does this suprise/enrage anybody? America voted this administration in. Did you expect something different?

-HC

(Don't blame me, I voted for Lurch.)
 
2005-03-21 07:24:29 PM  
(Don't blame me, I voted for Lurch.)

I blame the Dems' for not putting up a real canidate.
 
2005-03-21 07:26:00 PM  
Weaver95:

2005-03-21 07:24:29 PM Weaver95 [TotalFark]

(Don't blame me, I voted for Lurch.)

I blame the Dems' for not putting up a real canidate.


Don't blame me, I voted for Sharpton.
 
2005-03-21 07:26:48 PM  
Don't blame me, I voted for Sharpton.

It would have served 'em right if he'd gotten the nomination.
 
2005-03-21 07:28:21 PM  
BlindMan writes: Those evil bastards, stopping a brain damaged woman from being starved to death...

Well, that's not really what they've done.

They've turned the idea of a nation of laws on its head. They've decided that the independence of the judciary is outmoded and that legislatures should continue to intervene in judicial matters until the courts decide the way the lawmakers want them to decide.

They have advocated a system of ad hoc law. And, there is no justice with ad hoc law.

Name one fact that would justify congressional intervention in this case -- aside from the fact that you (or the Congress) didn't like the outcome of the state court adjudication.
 
2005-03-21 07:28:23 PM  
Weaver95:

2005-03-21 07:24:29 PM Weaver95 [TotalFark]

(Don't blame me, I voted for Lurch.)

I blame the Dems' for not putting up a real canidate.
------
Still can't bring yourself to blame the Republicans? Haha!
Damn! You're Awesome! Nothing short of Awesome!

-HC
 
2005-03-21 07:28:50 PM  
I'm not in the least bit surprised that BushCo. decided to blow its "Political Capital" on the equivalent of lottery tickets and smokes.
 
2005-03-21 07:28:56 PM  
I blame Bill Clinton.

/Man! I can't believe I got in first with that!
 
2005-03-21 07:29:53 PM  
Weaver95 [TotalFark]
(Don't blame me, I voted for Lurch.)

I blame the Dems' for not putting up a real canidate.


You've just gotta stop posting about this issue. You are BLOWING MY FARKING MIND! Did you fall and bump your head? Are you OK? Whatever it is, I hope it's permanent.
 
2005-03-21 07:30:20 PM  
Well this settles it: I'm definitely not voting for Bush again.
 
2005-03-21 07:31:17 PM  
Just stopping by to gaze at this train wreck.

Proceed.
 
2005-03-21 07:33:07 PM  
goldensmog:
"Terri stop:" good one Theaetetus. Where are you in law school?

/Assuming more likely a law student prowling fark than lawyer.


None of the above. Engineer (audio, computers, electronics, and broadcast), with a hobby and amateur interest in Constitutional Law.

/all this, and I'm single, ladies!
//not really
 
2005-03-21 07:33:10 PM  
Congress passed a law giving the federal courts jurisdiction to determine whether a constitutional right of Terri Schiavo is implicated in her case. Congress has the constitutional power to determine the jurisdiction of the federal courts. There is certainly nothing about this that exceeds Congress' authority.

One of the major complaints of the "pro-Terri" folks is that only one judge, perceived by them to be biased, has controlled the factual record. The appellate courts don't generate new facts, they rely on the record created below.

What Congress has done is likely to have no long-term impact on either this case or other cases. I don't see a constitutional issue here. The 14th amendment is the most likely suspect, but it won't help them. It seems pretty clear that due process has been satisfied, even if one disagrees with the ruling(s).

It is my opinion that Congress should not have intervened in this manner. I generally sympathize with the position of Terri Schiavo's parents, and am always inclined to be "pro-life." It is a sad situation for everyone involved.
 
2005-03-21 07:33:27 PM  
This debate is becoming as brain dead as Terri...

/and about as likely that someone will pull the plug already
 
2005-03-21 07:38:34 PM  
daz,

I doubt you'll take the time to read this (pops), but you're terribly misinformed.

First, Michael lived with the Schindlers for over two years following Terri's hospitalization. He waited a total of eight years (five after receiving the settlement) before initiating proceedings to have the tube removed. The issue of misappropriation of the funds has been looked into numerous times by the courts and in every case they've found no evidence of wrongdoing. Furthermore, as I'm sure you're aware, he has turned down at least one offer of one million to walk away. If was really after money, he'd be long gone by now.

Second, there hasn't been a single medical professional outside of those supplied by the Schindler family that has said that she a) has any concious thought or b) is capable of regaining concious thought in the future. The videos provided by the family are highly selected compilations of fifteen years worth of footage.

Third, I don't know how modern they are, but there are numerous scans available showing Terri's brain with huge holes where there should be grey matter (including the cerebral cortex, which is responsible for concious thought). That material doesn't grow back, so even if they are old, it hasn't gotten any better. As for therapy, Michael spent the first several years actively trying to rehabilitate her. It wasn't until he became convinced that such a feat was impossible that he moved to remove the feeding tube.

Finally, and this is the most important part, it has been decided in a court of law that this is what Terri herself would have wanted. This was based on testimony not only from Michael, but also from some of Terri's friends.

Would you really want to be kept alive in this condition?
 
2005-03-21 07:39:06 PM  
2005-03-21 07:24:29 PM Weaver95
(Don't blame me, I voted for Lurch.)
I blame the Dems' for not putting up a real canidate.

Now I'd ask this in TF, but as a nonTFer I couldn't see it...

I hated both major candidates this last presidential election. I'd like to know what would be everyones ideal candidate or ticket for the '08 presidential election?
 
2005-03-21 07:40:53 PM  
Henry Lee Lucas was spared because he wasn't anywhere near texas when the murders he was imprisoned for where commited. I hate the president as much as the next guy, but he had to commit this guys sentence.
 
2005-03-21 07:40:54 PM  
There must be 50 ways to leave your vegetable....

Just pull out the plug, Doug...
Take out the tube, Rube.....
Poison the IV, Steve.....
Listen to me.

Shoot her in the head, Ted....
Pillow on the face, Ace.....
Just drop all the feed, Lee...
And set the girl free......
 
2005-03-21 07:41:20 PM  
If only Jellyhead could reach the 'off' button!
 
2005-03-21 07:41:57 PM  
To reiterate:

She's not brain dead.
She's not on life support.
She reacts to her family coming into the room and talking to her.
She feels pain.


You're wrong. Her brain isn't just dead, it's gone. She's not capable of any of those things. There's just enough of a stump at the top of her spinal cord to keep the corpse breathing and slowly twitching as long as you keep feeding it.

Sit in a room with a slowly twitching corpse. Talk to it and show it childhood memorabilia for a few hours, video taping all the while. Eventually, you'll get video tape of the corpse seeming to twitch in response to something you said. That's the evidence Terri's parents are using to convince themselves -- and a number of gullible people like yourself -- that she's still alive.

All her family is asking for is an open trial so everyone can see that their daughter is still alive. It'd take a few days. Why the hurry to murder her? Why do liberals seem to be supporting this helpless woman's murder?

They've had one trial after another. All the trials have come to the same conclusion: she's dead, she wouldn't have wanted her body kept alive this way, her husband is the proper person to make that decision.

Are you saying there are judges that know her better than her own family?

Yes, without question. Her family is delusional.
 
2005-03-21 07:44:22 PM  
I don't consider the actions of her parents loving at all, but selfish and self-serving. Truly angers me that anyone would allow someone that they profess to love to continue that way. They are not thinking of her, they are keeping her husk around to make it easier on themselves.

On an aside note, anyone know where the term "vegetable" in this context originated? It's apt, but curious? Are vegetables any less mobile than say, fruit?
 
2005-03-21 07:45:49 PM  
HappyDaddy writes: Congress passed a law giving the federal courts jurisdiction to determine whether a constitutional right of Terri Schiavo is implicated in her case.

The federal courts already had jurisdiction to determine whether a constitutional right of Terri Schiavo had been violated. The principle is called federal question jurisdiction. What the federal courts will not do is retry the case. If an issue has been adjudicated to its utmost in the State court system, only the Supreme Court of the United States can reverse on any of the issues determined by the State court.

Why? There is an important principle that ordinary federal courts are not to sit in appeal of State court judgments. To do so would make the State courts inferior in a realm in which they should be judicially sovereign. The federal judiciary is not superior to the state judiciary.

The appellate courts don't generate new facts, they rely on the record created below.

And, that process has served the interests of justice for hundreds of years. Why is it important in this particular case for the arguments to be heard de novo? If the trial judge had erred, the appellate courts were capable of reversing his judgment or ordering a new trial. The parents of Terri Schiavo had their day in court. They lost.

Again, is there ANY reasonable argument for the congressional action other than disagreement with the final disposition of the case as determined by the State court?
 
2005-03-21 07:46:22 PM  
daz
MSNBCCNNABCCBSNBC

How could we forget?

[image from logo.cafepress.com too old to be available]
 
2005-03-21 07:47:26 PM  
capilot:
"Are you saying there are judges that know her better than her own family?"

Yes, without question. Her family is delusional.


And I'll add to that, her family has said that if they could, they would keep her alive under any and all circumstances - including cutting off all her limbs if she got diabetes and they became gangrenous, and performing open heart surgery on her if she had a heart attack.
Her family has also said that they would be fighting to keep her alive, even if Terri had left a living will stating that she did not want to be kept alive in this condition. They have stated that they would defy her wishes and keep her alive, no matter what.

I pass no judgement on their abilities to act as her guardians, but leave it up to y'all.

/yeah, right. 'course I pass judgement.
 
2005-03-21 07:51:32 PM  
I dont know what the right answer is to this whole mess but, i do know one thing. Congress should NOT be involved in this debate.Not your job fella's. Shouldnt you be questioning juiced up baseball players er sumthin?
 
2005-03-21 07:51:34 PM  
Wytchocolate

2005-03-21 06:14:55 PM Snoogit

Glad to see you judge with a group mentallity versus judging each person as an individual.


You know, of course, that plenty of right wing Farkers who do this too (see Weaver95 referring to "The Left" in this thread). I am not saying it's right either way, just that I will expect you to point this out next time you see Weaver, or gospel_of_thomas etc etc, do the same exact thing. I am sure your distaste for this type of lumping people into groups transcends political boundries for you.
 
2005-03-21 07:52:20 PM  
OK I know nobody gives a flying f*ck, but here's what I think.

If Terri's already essentially dead, then the husband should probably accept that she's already gone, and just walk away and let the family take care of the breathing mass of flesh that is her remains.
 
2005-03-21 07:53:54 PM  
Walosi:

I'd like to know what would be everyones ideal candidate or ticket for the '08 presidential election?


Eliot Spitzer

[image from ablenews.com too old to be available]


He's a pimp. He's like Teddy Roosevelt reincarnated.
 
2005-03-21 07:54:14 PM  
Weaver95

I blame the Dems' for not putting up a real canidate.

Ok, I'll bite. What exactly is your definition of a real candidate (other than anyone with an (R) next to their name)?
 
2005-03-21 07:54:42 PM  
lindseyp

If Terri's already essentially dead, then the husband family should probably accept that she's already gone, and just walk away and let the family husband take care of the breathing mass of flesh that is her remains, {as per her wishes in the first place.}

There, I fixed it for you......
 
2005-03-21 07:54:52 PM  
If Terri's already essentially dead, then the husband should probably accept that she's already gone, and just walk away and let the family take care of the breathing mass of flesh that is her remains.

For the Nth time...

Her husband is DETERMINED to honor her wishes. He is a good man!
 
2005-03-21 07:56:08 PM  
This story seems to have touched fuses with everyone different ways. If it does nothing else, I hope it convinces everyone for the need of a will and a living will...no matter your age. The wife and I both have living wills, and we will now go and review them since this opened up a whole new realm of possiblities.

/didn't read the whole string since it was soooo long
//did stop and read the Dr. McCoy post
///really, get a will and living will done
 
2005-03-21 07:56:12 PM  
lindseyp:

2005-03-21 07:52:20 PM lindseyp [TotalFark]

OK I know nobody gives a flying f*ck, but here's what I think.

If Terri's already essentially dead, then the husband should probably accept that she's already gone, and just walk away and let the family take care of the breathing mass of flesh that is her remains.


That is what I would call "sick".

(1) He is her family.
(2) "I'm done with her bones, do whatever." is crazy sick.
 
2005-03-21 07:56:42 PM  
Sum Dum Gai:

It's not unusual at all. Aggressive treatments were done when the husband was under the belief that she might recover.

I don't think anyone, including her parents, thought she would have a miraculous recovery. Its right here you see the husbands argument start to waver. Terri is severely, irrevocably brain damaged. That is not going to change. He starts therapy to improve what is left of her then stops it. Either you are going to allow her to pass naturally, immediately, or you are going to attempt rehabilitation. Getting discouraged by a lack of results does not mean you get to change your opinion. If that were the case, why bother with cases like hers at all?

Eventually, the mounting evidence let him move past his denial, and simply accept the reality that his wife cannot get better. Once he accepted that everything that made her who she was is now dead, it's only logical to stop treatment.

I don't think it was denial. I think it was him not understanding that he wasn't going to recover a completely functional human being, and that was discouraging. If Terri's wish was NOT to survive in her current state, that is not something that CHANGED. Hence I think it was not so much an awakening that he experienced - more like he became disgusted with his own inability to being her back to a standard HE appreciated. This is why I think her parents flipped out, because he reversed his position. I don't think anyone EVER told him to expect a miracle, and he went down the road of rehab anyway. The issue is what SHE would have wanted, not what he wanted.

So it is at this point, I think he disqualified himself as a guardian of her wishes, because its obvious he is operating from his personal agenda. His specific job as guardian, according to our law, is to determine what is best for Terri. Her initial wishes were discarded, and she was allowed to improve over the course of several years. He wins a lawsuit, gets disgusted with the whole thing, and decides he has had enough of it.

What needs be done is his ass needs to be removed from the whole goddamn thing, and another, impartial guardian appointed. That guardian needs to make an assessment based on modern technology, up to date brain scans and MRI's. There have been no new tests done on her in 13 years.

After that, if there is a concrete determination between conservative and liberal opinions that Terri has met HER OWN criteria for not wishing to live, then there you have it.

And even people who want to be allowed to die will usually want treatments *if there is hope* of recovery. So it's quite possible for someone to aggressively treat when they think there is hope, then stop treatment when they realize there is none.
 
2005-03-21 07:57:23 PM  
sonnyboy11

Ok, I'll bite. What exactly is your definition of a real candidate (other than anyone with an (R) next to their name)?

Seeing all the flack Weav has been catching I'll play the token kickball here...um, one that's willing to explain what his plans are??? C'mon George wasn't that hard to beat, could of gotten my vote if you had given me something to actually vote for instead of merely trying to get me to vote against...ABB ring a bell?

And if this doesn't give the Dems ammo to use, nothing will.
 
2005-03-21 07:57:30 PM  
Farkin_Hostile, you are a god among men.
 
2005-03-21 07:57:33 PM  
Oh and I love Weaver :) Every single inch of his commie pinko self I do :)
 
2005-03-21 07:57:59 PM  
On an aside note, anyone know where the term "vegetable" in this context originated? It's apt, but curious? Are vegetables any less mobile than say, fruit?

fruits contain seeds (brain) vegetables don't.
 
2005-03-21 07:58:34 PM  
lindseyp: OK I know nobody gives a flying f*ck, but here's what I think.

If Terri's already essentially dead, then the husband should probably accept that she's already gone, and just walk away and let the family take care of the breathing mass of flesh that is her remains.


Aw, that's not true. I care enough to shoot your argument full of holes. ;)

The husband has already said repeatedly that he wants to carry out Terri's wishes, and he knows that abandoning her to her family means that they would keep her alive, as the breathing mass of flesh she is. He doesn't want that to happen because he loves his wife and wants her to have some semblance of dignity.

Also, what would happen if he were to do that? Her parents are in their 60s, pushing 70s now, right? So, in 10 years or so, when they kick off, what happens to her? Her only remaining next of kin would be the husband again, but he's walked away from it. Do the doctors just let her go then? Or does someone else step up to keep her alive? This only delays the inevitable, and further demeans the memory of the woman that was Terri Shiavo.

/and then I go screw it up by mispelling her last name. Blame it on the smokey martini
//Smokey martini: 2 parts vodka, 1 part scotch, shake well.
 
2005-03-21 08:00:15 PM  
UncleBuck4U
Her husband is DETERMINED to honor her wishes. He is a good man!

I agree.

Hard as it is for anyone to believe when they can judge him on three seconds of video on the news. "What, my preconceived impressions of a person are wrong? Surely not!"
 
2005-03-21 08:00:43 PM  
Walosi:

I hated both major candidates this last presidential election. I'd like to know what would be everyones ideal candidate or ticket for the '08 presidential election?


I too think Abe Vigoda is the best man for the job.

/and as of right now - he is alive!!!!!!
 
2005-03-21 08:02:28 PM  
For those who are William Gibson fans and keeping track of all of the futuristic ideas in Neuromancer that have come to pass you can now put a tick next to "meat puppet", as in someone who is consciously disconnected from her body so that body can be used by others for their own pleasure.

Terri is her parents' meat puppet. Not sexually (thank GOD) but certainly she is literally the object of their affection. They very selfishly want her kept alive for their happiness, not hers. She is physically unable to derive any benefit from their affection for her. If her parents really loved her, they would have let her go a long time ago.

By the way, Judge James Whittemore is taking his sweeeeeet, sweeeet time ruling on this. He's not going to share his ruling today. I'll bet dollars to donuts he's hoping Terri will pass while he hems and haws before bringing down his verdict.
 
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