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(ABC)   Reporter goes undercover for story on sex with minors; has sex with minor to avoid blowing his cover   (abclocal.go.com) divider line 422
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65323 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 Mar 2005 at 11:10 AM (9 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2005-03-09 02:54:57 PM  
Notice how saying that someone has beautiful eyes, something women routinely say about men they fancy, is considered charming and beautiful and nonsexual. If a man comments on breasts or a buttocks in the same way it's considered inappropriate and more importantly SHALLOW.

Eyes- a feature.

Breasts/buttocks- Often used for sexual "play"

You really don't see the difference? Perv.
 
2005-03-09 02:55:01 PM  
OnTheFence
and yellow, though everyone is calm, and there's not too much flaming going on here...i still find it completely irrational. totally my opinion, of course.

I wish you would tell me how it is irrational.


I'm wondering about a few of you who have spent several hours in here fighting for the right to sleep with underage girls. It seems to be a topic close to some of your hearts.


As I tried to make clear above, I am not advocating the activity - merely pointing out that our societal laws on this issue are pretty arbitrary and seriously fly in the face of nature (as do most laws relating to sex aside from rape).

I also wonder how many full blown, mature adults are in here. Do any of you grown men have teenage daughters? If so, are you okay with a 35 year old man sleeping with your 13 year old? Even if she did make bad decisions and sleep with several men, would you be okay with people calling her a slut?

I don't have daughters. I would consider myself full grown at nearly 30. However, having an emotive attachment to one's daughter does not make one more reasonable - I would argue that it makes one less so.

It surprised, and really irks me, how many of you are blaming the girl (who, i know, we don't know how old she is)! Sometimes I really think that I am the wrong kind of person to be a farker...because sometimes you people really piss me off!

If you read the other article posted upthread (not going to link it here - it's up there) it is pretty clear (at least according to the article) that this girl was out looking for older men to sleep with. I would say that this puts her at least partly responsible for the subsiquent sex acts.

Are there any men out there who aren't completely obsessed with sex? Serious question. If not, then this is one hottie that is going to have to consider lesbianism. (oh great, just'll turn on the pervs)

There are no animals who are not, to some degree, obsessed with sex. It is our second most powerful biological drive.

I think the answer to your post as a whole can be summed up by one of my favorite quotes:

"Reason is the whore of the will."

-Martin Luther
 
2005-03-09 02:56:25 PM  
People who get caught breaking the law are much more likely to be punished.

You're completely discounting fame and a good attorney. It's come to my attention that there is a strong likelyhood that you are a child in an adult's body, and you believe everything you see on Television. I envy your fairy-tale life that has sheltered you from the harsh realities that others are forced to deal with on a daily basis.
 
2005-03-09 02:56:40 PM  
http://www.perverted-justice.com/
 
2005-03-09 02:57:02 PM  
jst3p

Never, above, did I offer a "test for maturity." I said that there should be a test to determine if someone is capable of giving consent (which is what the legal issue is about).
 
2005-03-09 02:57:19 PM  
If a man comments on breasts or a buttocks in the same way it's considered inappropriate and more importantly SHALLOW.


Forgot to add-

If you took your eyes off her boobs, you might notice that she has nice eyes.
 
2005-03-09 02:58:21 PM  
...not that MY life is so hard. I'm just sayin'
 
2005-03-09 02:58:38 PM  
OnTheFence you need to relax a bit. Are you new to fark? This type of discussion sans the flaming is rare and cherished, nobody is defending the men we are more talking about age of consent laws here. FYI do not claim to be a hottie people will AFlame you or B)ask repeatedly to see your "ta tas"

Everyone What about if the girl looks older and you meet her in a bar? wouldn't many people assume she was 21? I don't goto many bars here since I'm engaged and my girlfriend lives in another country right now it's just a tease and your beer sucks (sorry it does) i mean most bars i have been in, if you get in the door the people inside assume you are an adult. Would a guy get life for that?
 
2005-03-09 02:59:06 PM  
Never, above, did I offer a "test for maturity." I said that there should be a test to determine if someone is capable of giving consent (which is what the legal issue is about).

But you also said you could not quantify what that means.

Here: Come up with a test for Quijibo. I wont define it for you, but come up with a test for it.
 
2005-03-09 03:00:09 PM  
jst3p

Let me try something else on you: why do you think that passing some arbitrary age is a good enough test for either "maturity" as you have put it or "being able to give consent" as I prefer?

Passing a certain age is basically passing a test where the only question is, "are you 18?"

What is so magic about an arbitrary age that lets you determine if someone is mature that can't be tested in some other way?
 
2005-03-09 03:02:38 PM  
Everyone What about if the girl looks older and you meet her in a bar? wouldn't many people assume she was 21? I don't goto many bars here since I'm engaged and my girlfriend lives in another country right now it's just a tease and your beer sucks (sorry it does) i mean most bars i have been in, if you get in the door the people inside assume you are an adult. Would a guy get life for that?

The law usually reads something like "if you know, or should have known that the person was a minor".

So if you meet her in a bar you have a defense. If you pick her up from Jr. High the next day, you better stop.

If she lies to you and tells you she is 18 I have heard it comes down to a) physical attributes- could she be 18? and b)credibility - if she denies it who is lying.

If she looks like she could be 18 and admits to lying to you I think you should get off.
 
2005-03-09 03:02:38 PM  
jst3p

Here: Come up with a test for Quijibo. I wont define it for you, but come up with a test for it.

I am afraid that's a bad analogy.

"Ability to give consent" is not a made up term, but a recogniced, well, call it a "legal fiction" if you want, but it's the one upon which your entire argument rests (assuming you are arguing legal issues, here, which is what I thought you were arguing).
 
2005-03-09 03:02:47 PM  
What is so magic about an arbitrary age...

There was a vote and the motion passed. It's like sweet, sweet music to their ears...
 
2005-03-09 03:02:51 PM  
OnTheFence: I'm wondering about a few of you who have spent several hours in here fighting for the right to sleep with underage girls. It seems to be a topic close to some of your hearts.

Well, I get into some topics merely because I find them utterly fascinating for one reason or another. This one, though, you are right -- "close" in that I once dated a 17yo when I was nearly 27.

Now, before everyone gets all shocked, I never had sex with her. I could have -- after several months she decided that I was the guy to whom she wished to lose her virginity. However, before she and I even got involved (I had known her for some three years prior to our involvement) it was known to her that I was moving out of state on a permanent basis. I declined simply because I was not going to be "that guy" if you know what I mean.

Mind you, we *did* mess around alot, but went no further than she had been going since she was 14 and with "the wrong crowd". And again, for those of you who are about to say "and you were ''the right crowd''" -- yes, I was. And both of her parents and her older brother (my age) firmly believe that I was the best thing that had happened to her, then and even after several years after I departed.

So, yes, I do take it kind of personally when people jump on the knee-jerk black-n-white "OH U R A PERVERT!! LOL!!!" bandwagon.
 
2005-03-09 03:05:43 PM  
jst3p

Again, I am not the one who made up the idea that you have to be "mature" enough or "old enough to give consent." These are legal precedents.

You are the one who said (paraphrasing, here) that "you must be mature enough." So let's turn this on its head:

Please define "mature enough to have sex".
 
2005-03-09 03:06:26 PM  
NCg8r: You're completely discounting fame and a good attorney. It's come to my attention that there is a strong likelyhood that you are a child in an adult's body, and you believe everything you see on Television.

You know, if you understood your own flame, you'd realise that if he was a slave to television he know that fame and a good attorney are factors.

;)

/don't forget race
 
2005-03-09 03:06:54 PM  
"Ability to give consent" is not a made up term, but a recogniced, well, call it a "legal fiction" if you want, but it's the one upon which your entire argument rests (assuming you are arguing legal issues, here, which is what I thought you were arguing).

And since there is no way to test for it, some critiera must define it. In this country we use "age", "relationship" (a prisoner can not consent to sex with a guard regardless of age), or "being of sound mind".

Do you have a better idea? "Make a test" is not a valid answer because you can not define what should be tested.
 
2005-03-09 03:08:20 PM  
And both of her parents and her older brother (my age) firmly believe that I was the best thing that had happened to her, then and even after several years after I departed.

I had a similar issue... My best friend's little sister had a huge crush on me. She was 16 when I was 19/20... Her parents thought that hooking up with me would have been the absolute best thing that could have happened to her. I had NO interest in her, but her age wasn't a factor. Her parents already had our wedding planned, names for the grandkids, etc etc... It was all a bit too much. I never touched her, never led her on or expressed any interest in her. I think she's rich now... *sigh*
 
2005-03-09 03:08:26 PM  
Please define "mature enough to have sex".

Easy:

18 in some states.
16 in Canada
17 in some states

etc...
 
2005-03-09 03:09:16 PM  
jst3p: As long as he never uses those eyes to look at any tits and ass, I guess that's a valid argument. Puritan.
 
2005-03-09 03:09:37 PM  
ArcadianRefugee

You're thinking of the news, and I have no reason to believe he's been exposed to that.
 
2005-03-09 03:09:53 PM  
about the TnA vs the eyes
Women enjoy auditory turn ons more than men statistically
ie deep voice saying "I love you" or compliments in general. Often women will call a man romantic and charming. Wouldn't be like a Man saying (to another man preferably not at work) that such and such has a nice rack?

Men are statistically visual when it comes to sex so of course they are going to pay attention to the parts of the body that are visible unless wearing a snowsuit.

Men may be "more crude" about it, but thats our way when talking to the group commonly referred to as "the boys".

A lot of men would not openly say "nice rack" unless talking about an actual rack. (spice, steering, clothes drying ect ect ect).

I find it disgusting how ok it is for females to marginalize males with their sexual generalizations and then men have to suck up and take it because if we don't we are wimpy or even worse is this direct quote froma friend of mine (who is about 25ish which makes it even worse.)

"It's payback, men did it for years to women we are just getting payback."

Face it not all men are sexist pigs and not all men are crazy go nuts about sex.
 
2005-03-09 03:11:05 PM  
jst3p: As long as he never uses those eyes to look at any tits and ass, I guess that's a valid argument. Puritan.

The looking part isnt inappropriate.

Commenting on it and expecting it to be taken the same way as "nice eyes", that just stupid.
 
2005-03-09 03:11:36 PM  
jst3p: If you took your eyes off her boobs, you might notice that she has nice eyes.

Can't you do both? Or take in her eye color and then ogle teh boobies? I suppose it depends on what sort of relationship one is looking for or in. If it's my gf, I can get lost in her eyes (and have done so, damn her lesbian heart). If I am just "looking for some action" I don't see eyes as being all that interesting.
 
2005-03-09 03:12:45 PM  
Yellowbeard, damn you and your details! ;)

Correction about the sound mind thing. I didn't mean to imply I thought she was insane or anything, just even more immature than her age, and not thinking straight. She put herself and her family in danger, and has various other serious issues that need to be addressed. She needs help. They need to be punished for taking advantage of that.

:)
 
2005-03-09 03:13:41 PM  
jst3p

Easy:

18 in some states.
16 in Canada
17 in some states

etc...


You are no more giving a definition than I am. You are just making an appeal to authority, as well as begging the question.
 
2005-03-09 03:13:52 PM  
jst3p: You missed my point ENTIRELY. You said you seperate body parts based on their sexual relevance, there are no greater erogenous zone on my body than my eyes and my brain. Those two present me with all the arousal I can take.

If the fact that sometimes people have sex in the anus makes the ass an inherently shallow thing to look at, then the fact that people use their eyes to look at sexual organs should make them filthy too.

Do people like you turn out the lights when you shower or just close your eyes to protect your sensibilities?
 
2005-03-09 03:14:41 PM  
jst3p: Please define "mature enough to have sex".

Easy:

18 in some states.
16 in Canada
17 in some states

etc...


I thought it was 14 in CA?
 
2005-03-09 03:15:56 PM  
men did it for years to women we are just getting payback

That's what my wife says! Other than this one topic, she's a pretty enlightened person. I complain about the image of men vs. women on commercials and in general on TV. Always with the fat idiot and his hot-yet-understanding girl. . .

It's not OK any more than it was OK when Men were strong and dominant while Women were weak and subservient. Payback isn't teh right thing to do! I try to draw a parallel between that and racism (i.e. it's not progress for Minorities to discriminate against Majorities), but she refuses to play along. She says it's not the same thing and then I have to decide if it's worth pursuing the topic (it's not... you learn that as you get older).
 
2005-03-09 03:17:23 PM  
freda neato

Oh - sorry. I didn't mean that I thought you meant that she was crazy - I meant what you are saying above.

I am not convinced that she did anything, well, let's say "wrong." Did she do something unwise by inviting strange men back to her house? Well, yes, but it is no more unwise than any other woman (or man) who invites someone else back to their place for the purpose of sex. It's a calculated risk always - I am not convinced that she was a bad calculator.

In fact, evidence seems to indicate that she did her calculations well (at least, the first four times) in that nothing but what she expected (a gentleman caller who would give her physical pleasure) occurred.

I might even argue that this could indicate that she was more mature than most girls her age.

Again - she could be all the things you say, but I am not sure I agree that it is obvious from the evidence we have.
 
2005-03-09 03:17:58 PM  
Egoy: "It's payback, men did it for years to women we are just getting payback."

See, I just don't get that. Back before I turned into a complete farking pig, I was in decent shape but not what I might consider "sexy" ... easily far from ugly, mind you. One day a woman walked past and loudly whispered "Nice ass..." and I think I was more confused than embarassed or annoyed.

"I can take all the sexual harassment you can dish out, lady."
--said to a friend during a mock interview
 
2005-03-09 03:18:30 PM  
You are no more giving a definition than I am. You are just making an appeal to authority, as well as begging the question.

I am saying no perfect defintion exists. So we get as close as we can.

You said you seperate body parts based on their sexual relevance, there are no greater erogenous zone on my body than my eyes and my brain. Those two present me with all the arousal I can take

Your eyes, alone, are not sexual. Nor does the sight of them arouse others sexually. And while they+your brain may provide stimulation but ony by observing another persons body parts. Furthermore you will not climax unless someone or some thing touches your willy.

The eyes are not "sexual" and if you think saying "nice eyes" to someone and "nice ass" are the same thing, you deserve every slap across the face you get.
 
2005-03-09 03:19:43 PM  
She probably caught you peeking and said

"Nice.... ASS!"

that's usually how I get MY compliments!
 
2005-03-09 03:21:15 PM  
Your eyes, alone, are not sexual. Nor does the sight of them arouse others sexually.

You assume too much. There are probably a dozen fetish sites devoted to 1 aspect of the eyeball... I'll let you check.

Furthermore you will not climax unless someone or some thing touches your willy.

Tell that to my bed sheets when I was 13...

/ok, I was 23
 
2005-03-09 03:24:41 PM  
jst3p If you think age and maturity were directly linked you are sorely mistaken. In fact if you had said as much to me befor I was legal age i would probably have beaten you bloody. I was mature for my age and wanted the privleges granted to adults but unfortunatly i was never given them. Oh well the law applies to everyone too bad right. Thats the law but it is very wrong morally. I was 16 witha single mother and an older brother going to university we had no money and i was working of course, along with rebuilding engines and fixing cars for money and so i could get to and from work. (rural area so no car=no transportation=no job) and i couldn't even get a bank account to save my money in without a cosigner. My mother, the greatest woman on earth, worked really hard to make sure ends would meet for both of us but it wasn't easy.

Three days after school ended for the summer my transmission on my car died (rather spectacularly i might add) So there I was low on cahs becaue i had missed some work for finals and with no credit card and my mother having a full balance from trying to hel my brother out, with no car to get to work, no money to buy the necessary parts, and therefore no job. If I was mature enough to put money away on my own hold a job while in school take care of the house when my mother was working ect ect ect why wasn't i mature enough to have a credit card? let me tell you something and this part is a joke i wish that an older woman with mucho dollars had come and "statutory raped" me back then so i could fix my car and save some money for university.
 
2005-03-09 03:25:09 PM  

You assume too much. There are probably a dozen fetish sites devoted to 1 aspect of the eyeball... I'll let you check.


A dozen internet sites does not legitimize something. Ok, maybe there are .001% of the world population who consider an eyeball arousing. Are you in this group? If not then it is not "sexual".

Tell that to my bed sheets when I was 13...

You mean the sheets/underwear/bed that were touching your willy?

SOMETHING was touching it. In all but the rarest cases physical touch of some form is required for emission.
 
2005-03-09 03:25:26 PM  
jst3p: I've known PLENTY of women for whom the eyes were extremely sensual/sexual, in fact my eyes and eyebrows are about the only features I'm ever complemented on.

There are other things like the voice, or the personality, the intellect, whatever. These things turn women on, at least many women. Ever heard the phrase "the brain is the sexiest organ"? It's true to a lot of people.

The problem is a lot of women were raised to be scared of their genitalia and their sexual urges, or at least to abhor their use for anything other than making little babies and finding a wonderful husband to have long fully-dressed conversations with. It's just a hook to use to get them to sit down and be really interesting.

In reality you want sex, you like sex, you want sex from men and the traits that attract you to men are traits you find sexually attractive. I repeat: if a trait is something that makes you sexually attracted to someone then you are being "turned on" by any definition of the term.

Just face it, you all love teh cock. Well, teh sex, at least.
 
2005-03-09 03:26:03 PM  
"Whether the teenager let these 4 guys do her willingly or not shouldn't matter. People who are considered responsible and autonomous adults should not be having sex with people who are NOT considered responsible and autonomous adults."


Hey, peppy. Here's a newsflash:

There's plenty of freakin' retards that are not RESPONSIBLE AND AUTONOMOUS adults that are over the age of consent. That, and I've really got to wonder how many people automagically become 'responsible and autonomous' adults between the age of 16 and 17. My guess is that it's a-hooverin' around 0%.

Oh, and for the record, with an email address like baconmama@ev1net and no picture, the odds of said person being a self-proclaimed hottie?

Pardon me, I have to go change my underwear. I just pissed myself laughing.
 
2005-03-09 03:27:16 PM  
 
2005-03-09 03:28:16 PM  
NCg8tr (it's not... you learn that as you get older).
I propose that the rate at wich you learn that is proportional to how many years you have lived with a woman. Oh wait there i got being a pig again. sorry women.
 
2005-03-09 03:29:50 PM  
jst3p If you think age and maturity were directly linked you are sorely mistaken. In fact if you had said as much to me befor I was legal age i would probably have beaten you bloody.

That shows maturity ;)

I never said they are directly linked. There is a general link and it is the best thing we have to go on right now.

Thats the law but it is very wrong morally. I was 16 witha single mother and an older brother going to university we had no money and i was working of course, along with rebuilding engines and fixing cars for money and so i could get to and from work. (rural area so no car=no transportation=no job) and i couldn't even get a bank account to save my money in without a cosigner. My mother, the greatest woman on earth, worked really hard to make sure ends would meet for both of us but it wasn't easy.

It isn't the law that is immoral, where was your father? If he passed away, you have my condolences. I know this wont help but as a Christian this is where the church should step in and help out, widows and all.

It sounds like you were blessed with a wonderful mom and you were a great son tho.

Three days after school ended for the summer my transmission on my car died (rather spectacularly i might add) So there I was low on cahs becaue i had missed some work for finals and with no credit card and my mother having a full balance from trying to hel my brother out, with no car to get to work, no money to buy the necessary parts, and therefore no job. If I was mature enough to put money away on my own hold a job while in school take care of the house when my mother was working ect ect ect why wasn't i mature enough to have a credit card?

You were indeed the exception to the rule. If you could describe a way to legally incorporate a system that recognized this I would be all for it.
 
2005-03-09 03:31:10 PM  
Air? Lint???

Arguing with technicalities does not help your case... But I will admit I'm playing the Devil's Advocate here. I can't tell you the exact age, nor what I was wearing at the time. I can tell you, however, that I reached an out-of-court settlement with the sheets and the underwear, but the mattress held out for more money and lost in a long and bitter legal battle.
 
2005-03-09 03:33:42 PM  
Did the mattress give you any Jesus Juice? That stuff rocks, I used to go to second base for it all the time.
 
2005-03-09 03:34:35 PM  
Frax Oh I'd say the odds of her being a self proclaimed hottie are at 100% because she is a self proclaimed hottie....

see the odds of her being a hottie might be low in your eyes but you read her proclaiming to be a hottie therefor she is a self proclaimed hottie.

/last post i just like to end the day wasa bit of semantics naziism
 
2005-03-09 03:34:59 PM  
jst3p: I've known PLENTY of women for whom the eyes were extremely sensual/sexual, in fact my eyes and eyebrows are about the only features I'm ever complemented on.

It is also true that women find the eyes the "safest" thing to compliment on as they are not sexual. Then again, and this will sound rude but, it was the only feature they could compliment you on?


Ever heard the phrase "the brain is the sexiest organ"? It's true to a lot of people.

Not visually.


The problem is a lot of women were raised to be scared of their genitalia and their sexual urges, or at least to abhor their use for anything other than making little babies and finding a wonderful husband to have long fully-dressed conversations with. It's just a hook to use to get them to sit down and be really interesting.

In reality you want sex, you like sex, you want sex from men and the traits that attract you to men are traits you find sexually attractive. I repeat: if a trait is something that makes you sexually attracted to someone then you are being "turned on" by any definition of the term.

Just face it, you all love teh cock. Well, teh sex, at least.


Is it just me, or does he not realize I am a guy....
 
2005-03-09 03:36:03 PM  
jst3p: Furthermore you will not climax unless someone or some thing touches your willy.

As yet. They did make this thing that can be implanted in a woman's spine that can cause spontaneous orgasm (I'm waiting for them to be remote-controllable, though.) I can only assume they may eventually develop something like that for men.
 
2005-03-09 03:36:39 PM  
jst3p

I am not trying to attack you personally, but many of your arguments are fallacious (though they are so in the way that many people's arguments often are).

You seem to think that there is some criteria for being able to make a "good" decision about when it is ok to have sex. I might agree with that. So, let's not pretend that there is nothing to measure - we both think that there is some point (point X) before which someone is deemed basically incapable of making a rational decision, and after which they are not.

All your evidence (states and countries disagreeing as to when this point occurs) indicates that the is no common standard.

There are a couple of problems with that.

1. If there is no common standard, then what, exactly, is it that we are legislating here.

2. If it is agreed that there is a possible common standard, then we should be able to agree on what that standard is.

If we can agree on 2, then that necessitates some sort of test.

In the current situation, the test is "Is person X older than the arbitrary age limit." This is a bad test. Further, we don't even know what it is we're really testing.

Now, it was you (as well as the government) who posited that there should be some determinant other than the biological one. If you think there is some other type of determinant (which is obviously not really just age) then you should figure out what that is. Once you have figured that out (but not before) I (or a panel of experts) would be able to come up with a test for it. It's not a standard if you can't test it.
 
2005-03-09 03:37:03 PM  
Air? Lint???

Arguing with technicalities does not help your case...


It does. Pressure is required for ejaculation. Wet Dreams are usually the result of "bed humping".
 
2005-03-09 03:40:57 PM  
Anyway, I gotta get SOME work done today, and leaving when the thread is still mostly civil is something I have never done before. Thanks all for being mature, rgardless of your position on the subject.
 
2005-03-09 03:41:23 PM  
Yellowbeard

The point is there is no single standard that will apply to every person. It does not exist. In absence of that we have to use a broad brush and write a law that every one can follow.

I agree it is arbitrary nor is it able to stand up to a test of logic. It is the best we have and unless you can come up with something better what else can we do?
 
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