Myst was a great game.

west99,
Don't you think it's more likely that the game playing kids that are unruly and lazy ended up that way because their parents let them do whatever they pleased?
On the other end of the spectrum, it seems more likely to me that kids who are active and well mannered and fit ended up that way because their parents were actively involved in their development and encouraged them to pursue those goals.

Obsessive gaming in kids is a symptom of a serious problem, not a cause. In a different demographic, that first group of kids would have joined a gang.

While we're at it, let's make auto manufacturers liable for for any speeding tickets since, of course, they built cars that would go faster than the speed limit.

Stupid.

K, now repeat after me: Will...Not.....Stand....Up....To...A...Legal....Challenge.
A waste of legislative time. If they wont let gun makers be sued, then this is just asinine. Im not saying that gun makers should be sued, but logically, they'd have more liability in a sense than something like a video game. But like i said, this will never stand up to scrutiny. The burden of proof is way to much. Many studies have been done, and while there have been some vague links made between people who commit violent acts and video games, actual causality has never come close to being established. I know its kind of a cliche idea, but if video games are so responsible for violent crime then why arent more kids who play these video games out murdering and raping people? Honestly, why not? Saying because some violent people play video games, that means that video games caused the violent behavior is ridiculous. Violent tendencies are almost always the product of many factors. Shifting all the blame onto any one reason is unintelligent, lazy, and likely dangerous as it chokes any real progress in understanding why people become violent, and therefore helping people with violence and anger problems before they blow up and attack or kill someone.

Heh. Darwin has a point. No one is going to be accepted into Law School for getting 100% on GTA 3.

/Neither will a person who spends his nights on fark.
//Back to the homework...

DarwinEffect:

Yeah, it's a free country, but do we really need to be selling simulations of violent crimes?

Don't get yourself all worked into a lather here and forget the issue. The issue is not about any "need to be selling", it is about making such porducts illegal. You must begin the argument with yourself by erring to the side of Freedom, otherwise you are un-American. We don't "need to be selling" alot of the crap that is sold in this country - is that now to be the standard - Need?

Yes, we have the right to sell it and the right to buy it, and I don't ever want to see that right infringed upon, BUT we do we need to encourage this kind of behavior?

Ok, I see you have negated your first paragraph, and almost your entire argument. But still, you are asking the wrong question. It's not a question whether or not we "need to encourage" this kind of behavior. Not if you are an American. Not if you believe in Freedom. We err to the side of Freedom and ask instead, "do we need to outlaw such encouragement?"



What happened to pong? It used to be good, but it just ain't enough anymore, now is it?

Right. I am so extreme in my need for electronic excitement that I sit on Fark every night, masturbating trolls.

DarwinEffect
...these kids could be investing that time and energy into something that will actually pay off later in life...
Again with your desire to dictate to people what they need.

Gaming is a hobby, and it's more of a social one than many others. If someone is obsessed with gaming enough to cause suffering to himself or others, why is that different from someone who never leaves his house because he's too busy sorting his stamp collection? Is the hobby itself the problem, or something deeper?

I wonder what videogame inspired the Spanish Inquisition?

DarwinEffect

The classic liberal stance is "Do what you like, I just think that you shouldn't use this to raise your kids?"

So long as there are no laws passed restricting freedoms, welcome to the club.

You are entitled to your opinions, and you are entitled to state your opinions.

Excellent. This logic will help pave the way for makers of alcoholic beverages to be held liable for damages caused by alcohol-related injuries, drunk driving accidents, and health problems cause by their product.

Bring it on.

majindan:

Darwin, you are wasting all of our time with your rediculous contradictions. You did say you support communism in a previous post whether you were joking or not.

Yes, I said I supported communism. Democratic socialism to be exact, it's how they run Sweden, Sweden's a nice place to live. Unfortunately, it's hard to get citizenship as an american with no College Degree.

You support communism too, as I'm sure at least one thing you own was made in China.

Also, I'm not some dumb kid as you would like to think and spend plenty of time in the "real world" as you like to put it. Just because I didn't take college philosphy spoonfed b.s. as seriously as you doesn't mean I lack experience with the "world"
I never took a college philosophy class, you are making assumptions again.

Yes, people like you do want to make me resort to violence and it has NOTHING to do with videogames.
Your own feelings of inadequacy make you resort to violence. I am nothing but a cleverly strung together sequence of ones and zeroes from your perspective.

/spinning back kick to Darwins pathetic musician frame
/Rollback and press to majadin's pathetic MMA midsection, sending him flying across the room with a dislocated knee and broken rib

p.s. don't worry, my evening wont be affected by all of this fun either.

Glad to hear that, I was worried for a second.

Lord_Baull

I get it now...you're another of those "politi-trolls" that just loves to bash Bush at every possible opportunity, even when it's completely off-topic.

I gotta stop feeding the trolls.

It's kind of ironic, isn't it, that "I didn't take college philosphy spoonfed b.s." and "people like you do want to make me resort to violence" are in the same rant from Majindan?

Is ironic the word to use? Perhaps if you had taken a philosophy course in college, you might have a tap into your violent tendencies.

damn good point wadems...why do they make cars that go THAT much faster than the highest posted speed limit? You know, I mean why are they ALLOWED to make them.

Now, I'm not saying video games cause people to become serial killers, but games wherein the torture, rape, or murder of a simulated person is the primary point could easily encourage such anti-social behavior.

Or, you could argue that by providing a safe outlet to release tension, the video games are making borderline cases less likely to offend in reality because their desires are in part sated by the games.

You'd need to do actual studies to be certain of any effect, but one piece of evidence that contradicts the hypothesis is that the correlation between violent behavior and violent media is negative -- violent crime has been declining since the 80s, violent media has been increasing. Of course there are so many confounding variables that's hardly a real piece of evidence for or against.

Nonetheless, there hasn't been any actual evidence to show much of anything. And realistically, ALL television and movies and games are not very good for children, from the most violent to the most benign, because it has a negative impact on attention span.

The average video game player in America today is 25 to 35 years old. Games, much like comics, are not a juveniles-only pasttime anymore...

Zionist_Entity:

DarwinEffect
...these kids could be investing that time and energy into something that will actually pay off later in life...


Isn't that what a stalker does?

The most violent I ever got playing video games when I was a kid was when I kicked a small hole in a wall after finding out my little sister just saved over my Final Fantasy save game on the NES after I spent 4-5 months playing it. I don't think I'd blame the game content on that one, just the fact that I had some anger issues in general as a kid (and possibly Squaresoft for only allowing 1 stupid saved game).

I get it now...you're another of those "politi-trolls" that just loves to bash Bush at every possible opportunity, even when it's completely off-topic.

Hoorah, we have a winner. But to be completely honest, I don't bash Bush off topic, normally. I usually enjoy doing it only when he actually screws up. (and I maintain a happy demeanor quite frequently becuase of it)

/end trolling
//mission accomplished

DarwinEffect

Yeah? well, churchy, I think your religion is a complete farking waste of time and that religion should be banned.

Sounds a bit like you, eh?

fark you and the high horse you rode in on. Who gave you the right to be high and mighty because you know of a few kids with behavioral problems.

Let me tell you, kids with mental problems don't need video games to be violent. That's just a farking excuse so that parent's don't have to take responsibility for parenting.

No parenting is not easy, but it's the parents JOB. If you can't handle it why in the fark did you have kids? Your kid has a rage issue? That sucks, so take them to see a shrink. Don't sure the game developer because you suck as a parent.

/Tired of people not wanting to take responsibility for themselves
//Yes, kids can and do take responsibility if they aren't nuts.
///Yes, some kids need mental health professional to help them understand responsibility, usually because their parents read too much Dr. Spock. Take off your farking belt once and a while...

majorhopper:

We err to the side of Freedom and ask instead, "do we need to outlaw such encouragement?"

And if you look back, you would see that I never said we SHOULD outlaw such encouragement. What I'm arguing is that we, as consumers and adults, should not encourage it, and should definitely not buy it for the kids.

Anything past that is just me
1) Having fun with the knee jerk morons
2) Merely speculation for the sake of discussion

Zionist_Entity: Again with your desire to dictate to people what they need.

Not so much dictate as suggest. There is ample evidence to support my claim that human relationships are more productive than video games.

Is the hobby itself the problem, or something deeper?

Bingo.

The problem is that the hobby is a product that is designed purely to entrap the instincts of a human person.

And Stamp collections retain and often grow in value. Video Games only get less valuable.

I wonder what game the BTK vermin was playing back in the 70's that caused him to kill entire families with lampcords.

So if I buy Microsoft's Flight Simulator, then get the urge to fly so I go out and pay for flying lessons, can I sue MS to reimburse me for my out-of-pocket expense?

Or how about I like a Ferrari in a driving game, can I sue for the cost of that Ferrari?

Rather than investing all that time and energy mastering Halo 2 (which has no actual value outside of the gaming industry itself, and there, only limited, as a new game will be along next week to replace it) these kids could be investing that time and energy into something that will actually pay off later in life, like developing social skills and human relationships.

Darwin, could you please tell me how to enter your wonderful dreamworld?

Didn't think so.

Life is not as simple or good natured as you obviously wish it was. Ever seen 'Requiem for a Dream'? Didn't think so.

Life is like a bowl of shiat, you eat the cherries and end up with something that stinks. Get over yourself, hippy.

DarwinEffect:

The problem is that the hobby is a product that is designed purely to entrap the instincts of a human person.

So is masturbation.

Sum Dum Gai,
The study almost ALWAYS cited by critics of violent entertainment showed a link between those activities and increased aggression in the short term follwing the exposure.
To my knowledge, there has never EVER been a study suggesting that violent entertainment fosters patterns of violent criminal behavior as a long term effect, but that conclusion is always drawn based on "scientific proof".

Anyone else think violence in some shape or form is human nature? As far as inadequate goes Darwin, I've got the biggest black cock you'll ever see a white boy swing.

/Majin powers up and spins videogame and dragonball z dvds splicing Darwin and his ideas into pieces.

Have fun guys, time to hit the gym.

majorhopper: Isn't that what a stalker does?
You win the internet.

TwizeeK:

Yeah? well, churchy, I think your religion is a complete farking waste of time and that religion should be banned.

I don't really have a "religon" per se. I don't go to church. I am a highly spiritual person, though, mainly a blend of Buddhist, Taoist, and Gnostic Christian though.

I never said anything should be banned, though, I've repeated this stance throughout the thread. That is a fabrication.

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo:

The average video game player in America today is 25 to 35 years old. Games, much like comics, are not a juveniles-only pasttime anymore...

Hence my interest in the subject.

Kids are growing up faster,
Adults aren't.

damn DarwinEffect...there aren't many people that read past your initial comment. I guess video games are to blame for some things...like the short attention span of the average Farker.

It is a lot of fun to fark with the knee-jerk reactionists.

People, DarwinEffect is *opposed* to the bannination of violent games. Read his posts.

/is a bit annoyed that the people pissing him off the most are the ones that are on his side...

majorhopper: So is masturbation.


Where do you buy yours?

TwizeeK:

Darwin, could you please tell me how to enter your wonderful dreamworld?

Yes I can. You said it yourself.
Get over yourself.


Life is not as simple or good natured as you obviously wish it was. Ever seen 'Requiem for a Dream'? Didn't think so.

You know nothing of me, or what I've seen, done, been, or had to endure.

Do you really base the validity of your own life experience on the movies you've seen?

Or rather, do you really view movies as valid life experience?

Here's one for you, "The Basketball Diaries".

You may have one iota of an idea of where I'm coming from after seeing that.

But I can tell you, without a shadow of a doubt, that life IS, in fact, far easier than most folks realize.

DarwinEffect
these kids could be investing that time and energy into something that will actually pay off later in life...

I get paid to play videogames. I played them starting at age 8. I even played games with *GASP* swords in them! Of course, I did other things too, things I'm sure you would consider "wholesome", like little league, where coaches (who did not play videogames), would regularly berate the kids who sucked at baseball.

The bottom line is, the better a child can discern right from wrong, and fantasy from reality, the more mature content they can handle. It's the responsibility of the parent to teach these things to their children, and I hope they start immediately, before we end up with any more Scientologist.

DarwinEffect

Actually the physical activity might make them worse. According to the Surgeon General activities like midnight basketball did not help people redirect their behaviors. Actually I know someone who find frustrations in games and he acts it out in others ways too. It is in their personality at that point you might try anger management.

The idea of blaming games is stupid since no one at any time can prove 'x' causes 'y' in psychology. You can say there is a correlation but that is it.

Games like anything in life should not dominate your time, spread it out and do other things but playing games is not bad in itself.

Orlphar:

/is a bit annoyed that the people pissing him off the most are the ones that are on his side...

I'm not pissed, dude. I'm entertained.

datafox:

Games like anything in life should not dominate your time, spread it out and do other things but playing games is not bad in itself.


Bingo.

That's all I was saying in my intial post. That people who get too wrapped up in this stuff are pathetic.

Everything is good in moderation, but anything is bad to excess.

Video games in general, that is.

I don't agree with the sale and distribution of violent video games for personal reasons (those being that it's not the kind of thing I like to encourage in myself or the ones I love) but I support the right of people to do whatever they wish.

I also support the right of people to wake the fark up and smell the shiat they're shovelling.

I have to say it. I just have to.

...if we don't hold video game comapnies responsible for shiat they aren't actually responsible for, freedom will die!

Orlphar: People, DarwinEffect is *opposed* to the bannination of violent games. Read his posts.

Then what in the dripping gonorhea is his farking point?

Not so much dictate as suggest. There is ample evidence to support my claim that human relationships are more productive than video games.
This is just silly. How can evidence conclusively establish that the extremely nebulous subject of human relationships is quantitatively more or less "productive" than any other activity? How do you measure productivity? Wealth? knowledge? happiness? children? How do you define relationships? At least show some of this evidence, so I can understand what criteria it uses.


The problem is that the hobby is a product that is designed purely to entrap the instincts of a human person.
Well... yes! So is everything that has been for sale EVER. Go to your local gym and see what they do to entice potential customers. If you have a problem with free markets, don't take it out on a single industry.


And Stamp collections retain and often grow in value. Video Games only get less valuable.
This is even more silly. Search ebay for "vintage" video games, a vintage Asteroids cabinet is at $1000 and climbing. Pong? 300+(I wish I kept my rare 2600 games from when i was a kid). I don't think people collect these for the monetary investment, but that's pretty much proof positive that there is a widespread value attached to these time wasters.

datafox:

The idea of blaming games is stupid since no one at any time can prove 'x' causes 'y' in psychology. You can say there is a correlation but that is it.

The way the brain works, basically, every time you learn something new you create a connection between your neurons. Associatie behavior occurs because these neurons are just connecting one-at-a-time for one particular thing, but as a group, in response to a group of stimulus. So when you study for a test and you're relaxed, you're more likely to score well on the test when relaxed, vs, all tensed up.

My point being that associating rewards (pleasing sounds, images, points) with violent images increases the association between violence and pleasure.

Video games have positive benefits, most definitely, but violent video games should be viewed with caution.

Like you said, we don't really know all the details of how the brain works, so how can we assume that no harm will come?
How many people have you said you wanna kill today?

DarwinEffect

Or, I played video games for years and finally grew out of them, and I think that grown adults that spend more than an hour a week on them should get a life.

I'm 28. Married, no kids. (I really want one but that's another story.) 2 cats. Full time job. Oh, and I play videogames.

I could do something more "good" with my time, like make little booties for orphaned ducks, or help blind old men walk to the porn store, but I choose to play video games. I play about 10 hours a week. Sometimes more. Sometimes less. It depends on what else I'm doing.

Mostly I play video games for the same reason others watch TV, or read books. I like a good story. I cried at the end of Final Fantasy X, when Tidus died. I loved the scene in Jedi: Knights of the Old Republic when you discover your character is actually the teacher of the enemy, Malek. I was creeped out when I discovered that the wife of the hero in Silent Hill 2 - wasn't dead! I laughed and laughed at the antics of the weasel and the rabbit in Whiplash! as they battled the evil Genron and freed all the animals.

I know you will look down on me for enjoying them. But I'm getting some fun - something I don't get much of in long hours of stressful work. And yeah, I'm sure that as a dad, you're plenty busy with the young ones. But I don't have one, despite wanting one very much. Am I to sit around doing nothing waiting for something that may never happen? So what am I supposed to do with my free time between getting off from work at 8 and going to bed at 11? Yes, I sometimes go out with friends or see a movie. But some nights, I just want to chill on the couch with my cats, and enjoy a good story.

And that's why I play video games.

gitsh01

I cried at the end of Final Fantasy X, when Tidus died.

Tidus dies? I haven't finished it yet you bastard!

/throws controller across the room in anger

DarwinEffect

Orlphar:

/is a bit annoyed that the people pissing him off the most are the ones that are on his side...

I'm not pissed, dude. I'm entertained.

I meant myself, they are pissing me off. It's a case of them arguing in a way that doesn't help the cause, but doing something that basically invalidates their points because they are presented badly.

Guys, calling someone "churchy" or something like that doesn't win people over. All it does is get some of the people that support you to pat you on the back, and solidify "churchy"'s position, as well as those that support him.

Games like anything in life should not dominate your time

Unless you're a game developer or a journalist for a gaming magazine or website.

I don't see the same thing for R rated movies and Eminem CD's, i'm suprised these dipshiats haven't gone after those yet.

And Law and Order did something on this, and it sided with the prosecution against the video game killer

mr flibble, sorry about that. :)

Actually, "died" is too simple a term for it.

The ending is well worth playing for. Very well animated (typical SQUARE effects, superbly done) - ties up the story line very nicely.

Almost as heartbreaking as the romance scene they had during the space ship mission in Final Fantasy IIX.

ather than investing all that time and energy mastering Halo 2 these kids could be investing that time and energy into something that will actually pay off later in life

Like posting in online flamewars and downloading midget porn?

And what i don't understand also is that out of the hundreds of millions of violent video games sold maybe 4 people that bought them killed someone and blamed it on the video game, which is like .0000001 percent or something, so they want to hold game-makers accountable for this shiat? It's going to abused, and when a law holding game making companies responsible for murder is abused, we're going to see a spectacular crime hike in the US.

ather than investing all that time and energy mastering Halo 2 these kids could be investing that time and energy into something that will actually pay off later in life

AndyTHPS got so good at the Tony Hawk Pro Skater games that Neversoft, the company that makes the THPS games, offered him a job. So videogames can pay off later in life.

This is going to be a great violent game:
Area51

Just don't go murder any aliens after you play it, or the developer could be sued in Washington.

Guys, calling someone "churchy" or something like that doesn't win people over.



"Take it outside, God boy." ;)

majorhopper: Then what in the dripping gonorhea is his farking point?


That video games can, in fact, be damaging to the psyche.

Zionist_Entity:

Not so much dictate as suggest. There is ample evidence to support my claim that human relationships are more productive than video games.
This is just silly. How can evidence conclusively establish that the extremely nebulous subject of human relationships is quantitatively more or less "productive" than any other activity? How do you measure productivity? Wealth? knowledge? happiness? children? How do you define relationships? At least show some of this evidence, so I can understand what criteria it uses.

Well, I don't exactly have all my references handy, professor...

May I suggest Maslow's hierarchy of needs as a starting point? If you don't accept the validity of that model, then there is nothing I can offer as support.

Love, I.e. human relationships are listed as 3rd, just after food and safety.

Esteem, i.e. mastery of a task, like a video game, is listed as 4th, just before self-actualization.

Hence, there is a strong body of widely accepted evidence suggesting that human relationships are more important to the development of a healthy human than mastery of a video game.

The problem is that the hobby is a product that is designed purely to entrap the instincts of a human person.
Well... yes! So is everything that has been for sale EVER. Go to your local gym and see what they do to entice potential customers. If you have a problem with free markets, don't take it out on a single industry.

Fine then, let's legalize heroin. The free market should take care of itself.

I have tons of problems with our consumer driven society. Economics were invented to serve civilization, but it seems now that civilizaiton exists to serve economics.

I think we need to get back to more human roots.

And Stamp collections retain and often grow in value. Video Games only get less valuable.
This is even more silly. Search ebay for "vintage" video games, a vintage Asteroids cabinet is at $1000 and climbing. Pong? 300+(I wish I kept my rare 2600 games from when i was a kid). I don't think people collect these for the monetary investment, but that's pretty much proof positive that there is a widespread value attached to these time wasters.

You had a vintage Asteroids cabinet?

Let's see, that would have cost $3000 brand new, so adjusted for inflation that would be about $10,000. Looks to me like you're loosing 9 grand. (rough estimate)

People will trade anything. Video games by and large have a negative 75% ROI. Stamps are far more valuable as collectors items. This is fact.

Point being that you're still just wasting time with either, but stamp collecting seems to be a bit more lucrative.

You're the one that brought it up, anyhow.

I see no value in them, personally, and you won't change my mind about it. I will never see much value in them for myself.