Sid_6.7: $10 says people at McDonalds work harder than you.



Having worked both at my current job, as well as at McDonalds, I already know the answer to that.

Difference is, I'm better trained, and more highly paid :)

Ever hear the old saying "work smarter, not harder?"

Who knew the Puritans could be so damn progressive?

Funny that. Of course being progressive when the powers that be are selling get-out-of-hell-free cards isn't that difficult.

Sid_6.7:

More so to attach the value to the fact that you're better because you have more surveillance put on you.

"Look at me! I have less freedom! I'm so much better than you!"



Wow - talk about flawed logic...

First off, I don't see that I have any less freedom just because I have a badge that lets me into doors leading to (theoretically) secured areas.

Second off - it doesn't make me any better than anyone else.

What it does do, however, is make a statement that "I am not a hysterically paranoid tin-foil-hat wearer."

However please, feel free to continue to try to flame me...

jst3p
I am at point A. I don't want to arrive at pont J. Point B could possibly lead to point J so we should not go to point B.

Me:
No, it's not worth letting the egg roll two inches closer to the edge just so attendance can be taken faster.

jst3p
This assumes point B is closer to the edge. What if point B is a horizantal move?

It's my counter and my egg, and I said point B was two inches closer to the edge.

You may be right that the slippery slope argument is faulty. But I also think the argument against it is faulty. A lot of times, to stop something from happening, you have to stop it before it happens. If I don't want my egg to fall off the counter, then my best chance to stop it is before it falls. But the anti-slippery-slope people say I have to wait.

And so... In your kitchen, you'd expend a lot less energy stopping eggs that weren't going to fall. But you'd also have a lot more broken eggs on your floor.

Part of the issue here is that you say that point J may not lead to point B. And you're right that if my egg rolls from a point 8-inches from the edge of the counter to a point 6-inches from the edge of the counter, that doesn't mean it's going to fall off the edge. However, to go from eight-inches from the edge to falling off the edge it WILL have to pass through a point six-inches from the edge. And so if I never let it get six inches from the edge, it will never fall off the edge.

So it's kind of a question of priorities. Is my priority to ABSOLUTELY avoid an Orwellian society? (Though it's already too late to avoid that, if you ask me.) Or is it my priority to not expend energy stopping small erosions of our freedoms that won't necessarily lead to an Orwellian society?

Even if I'm wrong that we're moving towards point B, at least I and others have made it clear that we don't want to reach point B. Whereas if we stayed quiet until lawmakers were on the verge of passing legislation that would bring us to point B, we'd have to make a HUGE stink to overcome the perception of public approval resulting from the total lack of protest to that point.

Have you ever noticed that it's easier to stop a train when it has three miles to stop as opposed to having only ten feet to stop?

But there's also another way to approach this. Forget slippery slope. Let's say I don't like mushrooms. Which I don't. Do I want mushrooms in my burger? No, I do not. What about just one mushroom? Um, excuse me. I don't like mushrooms. Why would I just want one? While I MAY be able to tolerate a single mushroom, why should I? I don't like them. I don't want any. At all.

And that's what some of the parents and students in the article were saying. They weren't all saying "I don't like what this may lead to." There were some were saying "I don't like THIS." So forget where it might lead. No, I don't like where it may lead, but I also don't like IT. Now. This very thing. I don't want 100% of an Orwellian society, but I also don't want 90% or 80% or 70%. Or what we have now.

A single mushroom might not lead to additional mushrooms. But accepting a single mushroom seems like a very strange way to achieve an absence of mushrooms.

Last time i checked "freedom" was the ability to do what you want when you want how you want and as well the ability to do nothing. Last time i checked if everyone is watching you or no one is watching you still have the ability to do those things.

It is only a matter of time before tracking the movements of everyone on a continual basis is standard operating procedure of the corporate world as well as government.

It is just too easy to get someone to give up their freedom for security or convenience. I'm sure it will be presented as some sort of "security" tracker that can show law enforcement authorities your exact location in case you are unable to call for help.

Automobile insurance companies are already offering discounts to customers that let them put tracking devices that measure how much you drive your car as well as how fast you drive it. How long do you think it will be until the insurance industry makes it mandatory to have a tracking device on your car before you can get insurance? Even California is considering something similar to this to charge people for every mile they drive.

The recent trend towards a cashless society is just as disturbing. Paper money will dwindle down to nothing, while credit and debit cards will dominate and leave a paper trail that tells anyone who looks what you buy, when you buy it, and where you buy it.

I could be wrong. Dire predictions have been made before that never came to pass.

Enjoy being able to drive your car somewhere and buy something without anyone else being able to spy on you.

EverCompromised - Would I? No, because I love my job and I work from home about 95% of the time. When I go to a site, I swipe my magnet badge to get in and out of the building. Nothing intrusive about that. But I do have the option of quitting. Also, I have way more faith in the competancy of the company's management than I do in the that of the people working for the school. We take keeping employee personal info private very importantly where I work.

2005-02-22 02:07:10 PM meshman
"Folks talked of George Orwell, Big Brother and the Bible"
I wonder what they all have in common.

My guess is that the Bible reference, in this case, refers to the Mark of the Beast. Y'know... that whole thing about not being able to buy food or get medical care unless you have "the mark".

Some suggest it's already here with the magnetic strip on your credit card or your social security number.

Egoy

how can the device that collects the information be changed to collect different info? all it collects is a number.

Additional data collection points
Replacement with units having a more powerful range

If it collects that number often enough and over a large enough area...

You know what. This point has been made. You and jst3p are not persuaded by the many arguments already stated and you're not going to be.

Clearly, the potential to see small efficiencies in student attendance taking far outway the rights of citizens to not be monitored without reason. Have a nice day, citizen.

OFG!!!!! Peepul are being monitored?!?!?!!

When did this start? Oh, a couple of hundred years ago? Nevermind, carry on. You've been monitored your whole life and yet manage to summon the gumption to protest.


Again, if this was actually even capable of tracking the movement of students, you might have more of a case. As it is, meh, we've replaced the teacher's green book with a supermarket checkout. I think it's a stupid idea, not because Big Brother is trying to Bogart my freedoms, but because it's silly, expensive, unneccessary, and easily subverted. But who here hasn't had a manager get a hard-on for a sales rep and thrust a completely useless system on them?

Oh, and Weaver, damn, that's twice in the last few days I've given you a right on!

EnormousJuan

So how less would you be willing to be paid in order to say, sign in, instead of carrying around the RFID tag?

"kids don't have a right to privacy. That right comes with responsibility."

You're not listening. People need to be taught responsiblity, not submission.

And I don't know what basic human right to privacy you're talking about. Rights are not magically given to people when they reach an arbitrary number of birthdays.

Parents have a responsibility TO CHILDREN. Schools have a responsibility TO CHILDREN. It is not the other way around. Tagging children like cattle is exactly opposite to how to healthy adults are made.

Teach the child responsiblity and they're go to class. Teach them to merely "obey" and they will never learn responsibility, only submission or rebellion.

So, Egoy, you wouldn't mind if everyone were watching you all the time?

Sid_6.7: - My kids were aware of the video cameras at the daycare facility. We even sat down with them and replayed some of the video captures in front of them. (They were all good videos, nothing bad or accusatory.)

modernhamlet
Additional data collection points
Replacement with units having a more powerful range
units with a more powerful range would be useless and make it harder to pinpoint the actual location of the student.

If it collects that number often enough and over a large enough area...
it will have a bunch of numbers of students who passed though a large area.

You know what. This point has been made. You and jst3p are not persuaded by the many arguments already stated and you're not going to be.
I could say the same about you.

Clearly, the potential to see small efficiencies in student attendance taking far outway the rights of citizens to not be monitored without reason.
Clearly you haven't witnessed the point about this not being different from the current system except more efficent.

Have a nice day, citizen.
You too.

ctenidae So, Egoy, you wouldn't mind if everyone were watching you all the time?
no i wouldn't like it. does it affect my freedom? no.

EverCompromised - All things remaining the same, I would use the RFID tag. Because I'd never be close enough to a scanner anyway. But it's a poor comparison...these badges are used for building entry/exit and nowhere else, unless you are important and are granted access to sensitive areas.

When the gov't says it wants to impinge my privacy to provide a better service to me, I'll take the poor service.

In this case, the gov't wants to use RFIDs to keep kids safe and reduce rote attendance taking by teachers. This is how they will improve their service. This claim of better service through technology is not worth the price they ask.

And I really doubt that these RFID tags will improve the learning experience one bit.

Sid_6.7 Don't go out in public then! people watch you in public!

Andulamb

Just because you said it is moving in the direction of the counter does not make it true. If you can prove it is closer to the counter, you have a point, but it is relying on your personal preception, which can be incorrect.

I agree that it is easy to tell if something is moving closer to the counter than it is to tell if this is a step twords a 1984 society, your example was overly simplified, although you do still make a good point. Your point is only valid if this is a step tword a 1984 society, I contend it is not.

You also make valid points in regard to stopping a moving train and the rest and conservatives have been trying to stop progress in many forms throughout history, or at least slow it down. I feel this is a good thing as it makes us critically evaluate the changes that are made, but in the end technology always wins.

And that's what some of the parents and students in the article were saying. They weren't all saying "I don't like what this may lead to." There were some were saying "I don't like THIS."

They either don't like it because:

a) they dont understand it

or

b) they are afraid of what it would lead to

You said lets throw out b, so now we abhore any technology we simply don't understand?

Or put it this way:

Aside from the 1984 arguements, can you see any reason this is a "bad" idea?

I monitor Netcams at daycare centers so I can learn the times the parents pick up their kids. While the parents are out, I rob their houses. High tech is great and there are no down sides.

It's clear from 90% of the comments in here that people do not understand this system i think it's quite possible the parents of the school also did not understand the system.

Ergoy- it does impact your freedom. Rather, it could impact your freedom. You like beer? Sure, every red blooded American likes beer. Suppose you have a couple. You kind of want another one, but you know you probably shouldn't. You decide to have one more. Everyone watching you sees you have one more, when you know you shouldn't have (assume you're at home, not driving, and not in any danger of needing all your faculties). Everyone gets on to you for having one beer to many. Next time you ahve a couple of beers adn want another, you decide not too, because everyone got onto you last time. Your freedom has been impaired.
If everyone sees what you do, they have the ability to say something about it. Saying something about it modifies your behavior. That reduces your freedoms.

Clearly you haven't witnessed the point about this not being different from the current system except more efficent.

First, why must efficiency be the goal in every single system? Are there no other factors allowed to come into play? How much money and freedom is too high a price to pay for 5% more efficiency? For 1% more?

2. I stated on several separate occasions why RFID is fundamentally different from teacher given attendence...

It is bad because it does something ADDITIONAL, beyond taking attendance. That is, it acclimates students (in a seemingly innocuous manner) to the idea that wearing a badge so that the government can monitor you is ok.

There is a quantitative difference between human monitoring and electronic monitoring. It allows the government to be more efficient at doing X, X in this case being "monitoring people". Efficiency is a form of power.

/leaving before I godwin the efficiency=good argument
//ovens are the same as brownshirt mobs. just more efficient. no qualitative difference whatsoever.
///oops

I imagine it's pretty futile to enter into this fight as anyone who sees this as 'paranoid' is not likely to be swayed in their opinion, but for what it's worth there is a historical reference for this fear. Anyone who writes it off as paranoia is ignoring the fact that this did happen and, more importantly, that it is possible (regardless of how likely - just possible) that it could happen again. Anyone who thinks horrific human failings couldn't happen again or couldn't happen here or there or anywhere sure places a lot of blind faith in people (not even your diety of choice - but people).

The removal of freedom - including roundups, enslavement, detainment and execution of people for all sorts of reasons - has happened repeatedly throughout history over and over again. The Holocaust (and the Japanese detainment for that matter) are just two of the major recent examples. The only thing that protects anyone from out and out tyranny are the systems (goverments/laws/etc) we create and the work we do to maintain those systems. To quote the right, "you have to fight for freedom." But no government nor any governmental system is perfect. Corruption is always possible. We don't get a "get out of tyranny free" card just because our flag is the mighty red, white and blue. We have to fight for freedom here, too.

How does one really stop history from repeating itself? Isn't it at all possible that it takes hard work and vigilance to do so? Might it take a keen eye for warning signs and a desire to steer clear of them? Maybe the ones you call "paranoid" aren't paranoid at all. Maybe they are just the only ones smart enough to have an eye open and vigilant enough to fight for what our forefathers did.

Plus, if the first five minutes of class are spent in the bogus attendence ritual, the slackers like me who were always coming in a few minutes late weren't missing valuable class time, or disrupting it for others. And it gave us time to quickly catch up, flit with the ladies, and plan out the night/weekend.

Far more valuable than five more minutes on the role of the Corn Cob in the Settlement of the West, if you ask me.

I think it's clear from the posts here that most people understand the system, but that 2 of the people can't imagine the possibilities.

And with that, I'm going home. With my work-issued RFID tag in my pocket, my cell phone (turned off, as usual) in my briefcase, and my tin foil hat screwed on tight.

/leaving before I godwin the efficiency=good argument
//ovens are the same as brownshirt mobs. just more efficient. no qualitative difference whatsoever.


That is so wrong and you know it.

The key here is not at "being more efficient" it is "being more efficient at something that we already accept is a good idea"

Keeping track of our kids is a "good" thing, we accept that. Therefore more efficiency is better.

Killing jews is a "bad" thing. Being more efficent is worse.

You sir, are a nazi! :P

caffeinated

What freedoms are being taken away here? Privacy? Kids are already required by law to go to school. Their presence, or lack thereof, is already monitored. This is only enforcing the current laws.

That's like the 3rd time in 2 weeks I've agreed with something Weaver95 said.

/waits for the 4th horseman

If you can't see that the implications of this spread beyond children there is definately no reason to argue.

ctenidae So your argument is that things that allow others to infinge on my freedom should be banned? like the seeing allowing others to comment and the comments would make me change my mind and thats a loss of freedom.

I don't care what people think about me and if i did i'm exercising my freedom to do what others think is right

or if you will guns allow others to infringe upon my freedom. muscles, female anatomy, fences, ditches and locks on dorrs all do these things too. should they be banned because they might be used to infringe upon my freedom?

So, if efficiency and safety are so overwhelmingly important - why do you suppose the teachers and administrators are exempt from this monitoring system?

Come on Weaver, you can do better than that.

It's pretty obvious when a teacher or administrator does not show up and the school does not recieve funding based on teacher and administrator headcount.

Do you think the school would care at all about attendance if it were not directly tied to funding?

caffeinated

The implications of using digital cameras, videocameras, audio recording devices, credit cards, etc. to monitor where people are and what they do have been explored. RFIDs are just another technology to be used or abused.

/and there is always reason to argue. This is fark.

Sid_6.7

I have a fake job and I wear an RFID tag. It's so I can find myself in the morning. I like not having freedom. I want people to tell me where to be and what to wear. It makes my life easier when I don't have to think.

2005-02-22 04:17:06 PM EverCompromised

What should you do? Stop being a god-damned idiot, and think about the consequences of big brother. Read a bit about it, start with "The Man Who Knew Too Much by G.K. Chesterton". I am no luddite. I do see uses for RFID, like retail theft prevention. But tagging our kids WILL backfire on us. First, it is relativly easy to beat, either through social engineering, or through technical means. Second, once it starts getting beat on a regular basis, fools like yourself will say, ok then, optical retinal scan. We invaded and took over this great nation for freedom. The freedom to practice our idiotic religions, and the freedom from what we perceived as a "heavy handed" government. Don't you see the cycle repeting itself? Only through education can we outgrow it, and using RFIDs teaches nothing, except that we don't trust our own children.

Keeping track of our kids is a "good" thing, we accept that. Therefore more efficiency is better.

Break out the required GPS/video/audio recorder for every kid then.

and using RFIDs teaches nothing, except that we don't trust our own children.

Obviously not a parent. Did you ever skip class? If your kid did would you want to know?

I bet some of these people on here biatching about personal freedom (even though it's not being compromised) go home and watch entertainmy tonight to se whos banging who, where they did it, and who cheated on who.