If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(LA Times)   Report says school has turned kids into high-tech guinea pigs   (latimes.com) divider line 456
    More: Interesting  
•       •       •

17928 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Feb 2005 at 1:48 PM (9 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



456 Comments   (+0 »)
   

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | » | Last | Show all
 
2005-02-22 03:23:24 PM
It's ironic that a nation which prides itself on freedom and liberty (and often confuses the two) and individualism is the one where one, if one wants to lead a even a semi-normal life, has to subject oneself to massive scrutiny by financial institutions, workplaces, housing establishments, and now schools? Hey, how about that mandatory GPS in the car for "road tax", yeah right. No "creeping purpose" there, uh, uh.

Ironically, this monitoring and control system is what makes identity fraud so easy (and rampant).
 
2005-02-22 03:24:19 PM
I agree with thurilok. We should outlaw telephone numbers.
 
2005-02-22 03:24:35 PM
2005-02-22 03:13:02 PM Egoy

ctenidae Proving an argument false through philosophical means in not semantics, it's logic.

Granted, but latching onto what may or may not be the definition of a particular phrase rather than the point behind it is semantics.

Simply put, I'm all for things which are optional. I'm strongly against most things which are mandatory.
Requiring kids to wear radio tags in school could make them more accepting of other mandatory tracking devices.
Kids could grow up to be adults.
IF those two conditions are met, THEN the resulting adults could be more accepting of mandatory tracking devices.
I am against mandatory tracking devices, therefore I see the possibility of the above as something to avoid, either by not requiring kids to wear tags, preventing said kids from becoming adults, or by changing the minds of the resulting adults. I think it's easiest to stay with the first option.

Is that a sufficently neatly packaged logical framework for you?
 
2005-02-22 03:24:47 PM
drunkenmidnight: I can see where this system has merit, like in a kidnapped kid situation

RFID chips have jack shiat for range. Maybe 5 ft. at most. They're passive radio units, not active.
 
2005-02-22 03:25:00 PM
EvilTimmy:

I think most of you have overinflated egos. The government really doesn't care. While it's entirely possible they could push for something like this, they won't. The plain and simple reason behind it is that you're not important enough. Convicted felons? People who are kidnap risks? Important government figures? Sure, why not. But to roll out something for 300 million people who, by and large, are farking boring, doesn't accomplish anything. RFID in schools isn't another step towards government barcodes tattooed on your head, it's simply a step forward from the teacher calling roll every class period.

So we should all agree because the government doesn't really care about where we are? I care, and plenty of other people do. It doesn't matter how interesting or important I am, or what the government thinks. It's about the fundamental right to privacy, which is being contantly eroded. Why can't the teachers take an extra minute to take roll? Is it really that burdensome? RFID is like television, in that it replaces actual, human supervision and interaction for automation. Inquisitive children can ask their teacher the whats and whys about taking attendance, but they can't ask the RFID scanner. Just like if you're given a traffic citation, you can go to court and make your accuser prove your violation, but traffic cameras are unquestionable, and always assumed to be correct (even if they aren't).
 
2005-02-22 03:25:04 PM
RFID tags are a bad idea because it only requires another student to go to class with it to count you as absent.

If we really want to go high-tech with tracking students, then set up a thumbprint scanner right by the door of the classroom and the entrance to school.
 
2005-02-22 03:25:16 PM
How many people know whats these devices actually are and know that they cannot be used to track anything? raise your hands.
*raises hand*
 
2005-02-22 03:26:12 PM
why wouldnt the kids just carry their friends cards in their backpacks? seems like there is lots of ways to use this to your advantage..

/rtfa
//didnt read all the posts
 
2005-02-22 03:26:14 PM
jst3p

Very clear. You seem to approve of 2 options:
1. Go completely off the grid
2. Full-time government tracking of all citizens


Not at all, I beleive a happy medium can exist.

Do you really think this is inoccuous?

This particular application? Yes.

Do you really think the "benefits" substantially outweigh the potential for abuse?

Considering I don't see potential abuse of this system as it requires the sensor to be 5 feet away from the card, I do feel the benefits otweigh the risk.


Do you really think it's a good idea to train children that government surveillance of their activities is completely acceptable?


How is this any different from the "government surveillance" of our teachers manually taking our attendance when we were in school?
 
2005-02-22 03:27:01 PM
It's amazing nobody has pointed this out from the kids' point-of-view... The teachers aren't taking attendance anymore.

THE TEACHERS AREN'T TAKING ATTENDANCE ANYMORE!

All you have to do is fool a computer sensor.

/Hey Bobby, can you take my badge with you to math class? I want to go behind the bleachers, take some ecstasy, fark the principal's daughter, steal a car, kill some dude, and still have an alibi.
 
2005-02-22 03:27:56 PM
How many people know whats these devices actually are and know that they cannot be used to track anything? raise your hands.
*raises hand*


Funny, I thought that was exactly their use in warehousing.
 
2005-02-22 03:28:32 PM
Egoy:

How many people know whats these devices actually are and know that they cannot be used to track anything? raise your hands.
*raises hand*


They can be used to track things, but only if you have sensors absolutely everywhere. As for those concerned with the cost, that's one thing that isn't an issue. They're dirt cheap. Less than 10 cents each, and as soon as they get production costs down to around a penny each, they'll most likely replace bar codes.
 
2005-02-22 03:28:40 PM
Is that a sufficently neatly packaged logical framework for you?

could != true

You assume that people will never reach a point that will force them to say no?

You dont give human beings much credit.
 
2005-02-22 03:28:46 PM

EnormousJuan --
And the worst case result of a system compromise appears to be knowledge of when students moved in/out of seventh- and eighth-grade classrooms, or of the more bizarre risk of somebody littering the town with powered readers and performing research on distributed sensor networks. Is the presence or absence in a classroom somehow sensitive information? Unless the other students, staff and faculty are regularly sworn to secrecy about attendance records, or these classrooms are magic and protect one from anybody who's monitoring the system in real time (or Johnny's a likely kidnap victim but insists on visting the restroom at the same time each day so an ambush can be set *eyeroll*) this doesn't seem that sensitive. Hell, for their intended results -- tracking attendance -- they don't even need detailed timestamps, just presence or absence during a given period (or day?).


Hell, they probably only need it for tracking attendance per day/period so the state doesn't penalize them for having "phantom" students to increase their funding. You don't need real-time data aggregation or detailed time stamps for that.

 
2005-02-22 03:28:47 PM
jst3p
This assumes point B is closer to the edge. What if point B is a horizantal move?

This is exactly what I asked you. Do you believe the universal acceptance of government monitoring of citizens is a "horizontal" move?

I don't. I believe it is on the floor.

7footJesus
No problem. He's got a book available online that goes into greater detail. Fascinating stuff.
 
2005-02-22 03:29:03 PM
Egoy


How many people know whats these devices actually are and know that they cannot be used to track anything? raise your hands.
*raises hand*


I totally agree

*Raises hand*

What the....
 
2005-02-22 03:29:50 PM
I also don't get how these tags are meant to increase attendance. If Johnny isn't going to show up for class with the teacher taking role, why would he be any more worried about showing up when RFID-O-TRON 2000 is doing it? Oh, the principal will know if Johnny walks out the front door? Whoopie.
 
2005-02-22 03:30:11 PM
Not at all, I beleive a happy medium can exist.

Have you ever known the government (US or otherwise) to be satisfied with a happy medium?
 
2005-02-22 03:30:32 PM
Anyone care to dispute that fact the children are already monitored in school by the act of taking attendance? Anyone?
 
Ant
2005-02-22 03:32:40 PM
When students walked into class, an RFID scanner mounted above the door recorded it, pumped out the roll on a teacher's wireless Palm Pilot and stored the attendance figures on a central computer.

I just had a vision of a single student entering a classroom with his 24 absent classmates' badges affixed to his shirt
 
2005-02-22 03:32:46 PM
How many people know whats these devices actually are and know that they cannot be used to track anything? raise your hands.

"Can't" is a VERY strong word.

As a passive transmitter, it is essentially powered by the RF signal it first receives. Send a more powerful signal, get a more powerful response. There may be software limitations introduced, but by necessity this will have to be configurable to allow for use in different environments where a stronger response may be required do to RF interference. There will be vulnerabilities, and there will be exploits.
 
2005-02-22 03:32:51 PM
Meh... not really that big of a deal.
 
2005-02-22 03:33:04 PM
2005-02-22 03:28:40 PM jst3p

You are, of course, correct- could = could. As in, it is a possibility. People could reach a point where they say no. I can't say with any certainty that they will say no in the future, any more than I can say with any certainty that RFID tags will lead to massive government surveillance. But it is possible that it will, and it is possible that people won't. Why push that chance, when we could say no now?
 
2005-02-22 03:34:45 PM
The attendance sheets can be stolen from the teachers desk or the office...those are know exploits that any moron can carry out and i bet more people could mange to walk away witha sheet of paper than set up and RFID scanner or "hack" a "secure" computer.
 
2005-02-22 03:35:35 PM
2005-02-22 03:19:37 PM Sid_6.7 [TotalFark]

But I'm also more willing to put them in a school that caters to what they are gifted in. Even in my public highschool, past a certain point you moved into a more music based, art based, science/math based, or trade based concentration.

Also, I believe that any kid can do good in the public education system if his/her parents take the time to sit down with them and learn with them. I plan on giving my kids extra work to do. I want them reading, writing, artistically expressing themselves, learning advanced math and science outside of what the school has to teach them. I would rather push them harder in earlier life, with appropriate rewards, then to have them sitting around doing nothing. My girlfriends younger sister is home schooled and does a lot of this type of stuff.

I believe that half the reason kids can't meet the relatively low expectations of the public school system is that their parents think that their responsibilities begin and end with dropping the kid off at school.
 
2005-02-22 03:35:40 PM
2005-02-22 03:30:32 PM Egoy

I won't dispute that, because it's immaterial to the current argument. Attendance taking in the school does not, in itself, increasse the acceptance of monitoring outside the school. Wearing an RFID tag may, becasue it's something different that may have applications outside the schoolhouse.
 
2005-02-22 03:36:04 PM
One is more enlightened when they read this article from the perspective that we live in a participatory democracy, rather than from the perspective that one's rights to privacy might be trampled. Particularly in small towns where there are things like town meetings, I've seen this a lot. Some genius selectperson or school commitee member gets some idea stuck in their head, they have their weekly meeting, it gets proposed, no one is there to object, and thus it only gets noticed after the shiat has already hit the fan.

Look people - if you don't like what's going on in the world today, whether your world be a small town in California or the country as a whole, educate yourself and be proactive. We live in a participatory democracy where the people have as much control over the direction of government as they wish to use. The people in this town didn't seem to care too much until something very specific caught their attention. It's very indicative of the general apathetic mindset of the country lately.

// flame on
 
2005-02-22 03:36:15 PM
I am a parent, and I, for one, don't have a problem with this technology idea. (Obviously, I'm in the minority in this thread.) I disagree with the particular application of RFID tags not because of the tracking potential; I just think it would be better to have key cards to gain entry to the building, although younger children would be prone to forgetting them at home. (Older children might "purposely" forget them, but that's a different discussion.) I don't really believe the "we're using this to speed up attendance taking" argument, but I do think it has a practical purpose.

My children are being sent to a public school, and I have to place my trust in the teachers and principals to keep my child safe. (Home schooling is not a reasonable option in my situation, plus I prefer to give my children social interaction with other kids.) Sadly, we live in a time where sexual predators will case schools and abduct children, and drug dealers will hang around schoolyards. It would be one less thing to worry about if I knew that the only people inside the school were people who were supposed to be in there. Also, areas where children shouldn't be going - unauthorized areas, unsafe areas, etc. - can be monitored. To say that tracking children outside of school is a logical progession is... well... illogical.

Whether or not most of you like this technological progression, I'm willing to be that most of you own a cell phone, and many of you (like me) have abandoned the land phone all together. Most states are implenting or have already cell phone tracking for 911 response. If they can do that, there's no reason to believe that they can't determine your position for non-emergency purposes. And, with many kids already owning cell phones, they've already become accustomed to the technology. Big Brother has already made his mark, and crying over RFID tags is pointless... unless you're all ready to don aluminum foil hats and throw your cell phones away.
 
2005-02-22 03:38:13 PM
The school was going to reward the high-tech guinea pigs that were their students for cleaning their rooms/cages but they didn't have the Hartz for it.
 
2005-02-22 03:38:38 PM
ctenidae Oh so one type of government monitoring is ok because i doesn't teach kids to accept being monitored but this other type does? Are you a physcologist? Have you done research with large sample population to verify this claim? Have you published the results of this research?
 
2005-02-22 03:38:42 PM
DrZombie:

I believe that half the reason kids can't meet the relatively low expectations of the public school system is that their parents think that their responsibilities begin and end with dropping the kid off at school.

More involvement of the kind you describe is definitely better than most alternatives, but at the same time, you're still catering to your opinion of what they should be learning, which is based in part on what the school's think they should be learning. But neither is necessarily what is best for the child.
 
2005-02-22 03:40:19 PM
Why don't they use the "Kronos" biometric punch-in system before each class? Then they'll be more used to it when they get a crappy job.
 
2005-02-22 03:40:33 PM
brap:

The school was going to reward the high-tech guinea pigs that were their students for cleaning their rooms/cages but they didn't have the Hartz for it.

Boooooo *hiss* bad pun! Funny, but still bad!
 
2005-02-22 03:40:46 PM
I think it would have been more fun if the entire student body would have popped that little RFID device in the microwave for about 10 seconds. It's amazing what microwave radiation can do to a little electronic device like that.
 
2005-02-22 03:42:36 PM
Egoy I have no desire to argue that point. Privacy invasion is bad, and anything that makes it easier or more likely is just as bad.
 
2005-02-22 03:43:23 PM
I am the technology director for the next school district up from sutter. Our attendance is already computerized but without the RFID tags. We record when the kids log on to the network, what searches they perform in any search engine, I can go back a month and tell you every single web page an individual student has visited. We have computerized survelliance systems which allow us to pull up an video we need for a two week period in any place in the school. RFID if it actually works would be great, but I am at a loss as to what school attendance program would integrate the use of RFID tags, none of the major ones do. We get paid for our daily attendance and the only things the tags would do would be to show that an ID tag was on campus. They would have to have a reciever that would only pick up tags in one classroom and not adjacent ones and have integrate directly to the attendance software. Anyways Sutter is tiny they dont even have enough students to justify this. I do believe if they ever made a truly integrated system which would include their free lunch information and the ability to check out library books as well as attendance it would be great.
 
2005-02-22 03:43:24 PM
by the way:

God love the poster that reminded me I needed to install the AdBlock extension

God save us all:
"Cuddling in bed naked with a wonderful lover watching movies and eating potato chips and dip."
 
2005-02-22 03:44:10 PM

astrnomr --
I think the kids would ditch the badges before entering into any particular place they shouldn't be, so this wouldn't help there.


Unless, of course, the school were covered with readers AND real-time tracking was being performed AND algorithms could flag certain suspicious behavior, such as tags co-located for too long (somebody holding somebody else's RFID tag as well?) or being stationary for a certain time period (placed in a locker, say). That would have far more technical and moral complications... and it could still be beaten by sufficiently clever students, I'd think.

 
2005-02-22 03:45:29 PM
Korovyov - You think the system will be set up like that? Even if the RFID-attached system only has 15-digit ID and classroom entry/exit info...that's not very useful unless you cross-ref with more student data. Since the teacher no longer has an attendance chart, how does she check on a student's previous attendance in her classroom? Does she memorize the 15-digit number for each child instead of a name? Or...on her desktop...is an app that makes the connection...likely matching that 15 digit ID not only to a student's name but also home phone and address...because teachers often call problem students' parents.
 
2005-02-22 03:46:27 PM
It wouldn't take too much technology to create a sensitive RFID detector that would track all the students on the school grounds. The principal or security person would know where students are at school at all times. Students that congregate in non-classroom places can be monitored and action can taken.
Students could even be 'flagged' for being troublemakers. Letters for parents could be automatically printed when the student had been 'caught' or miss classes. Parents could even log into a secure server from the Internet and monitor their children at school.
 
2005-02-22 03:47:26 PM
I can see a use for this radio badge, single ads that you can check in your cell phone. I wonder if the babe next me likes hockey...
 
2005-02-22 03:47:44 PM
Korovyov: or being stationary for a certain time period (placed in a locker, say)

Like, when you're sitting in class, or standing around talking? Wouldn't work.
 
2005-02-22 03:48:11 PM


Unavailable for Comment
 
2005-02-22 03:49:56 PM
thurilok -
God save us all:
"Cuddling in bed naked with a wonderful lover watching movies and eating potato chips and dip."


The burning question is: what is the physical location of said dip?

/ick
 
2005-02-22 03:50:32 PM
jst3p
How is this any different from the "government surveillance" of our teachers manually taking our attendance when we were in school?


Take intent completely out of the picture and just look at the technology. There is a quantitative difference between human monitoring and electronic monitoring. It allows the government to be more efficient at doing X, X in this case being "monitoring people". Efficiency is a form of power.

I am of the belief that the government does not need to improve its efficiency at "monitoring people". It does need to improve its efficiency in other areas. Just not keeping track of its citizens.

Now, add the possibility (probability) of malicious intent. Welcome to 1984.
 
2005-02-22 03:52:03 PM
You know, the funny thing is, if the school marketed these badges as a security thing to, say, get on the bus or to get in the door, parents wouldn't have said two words about it. Like, for example, I need a card pass to get in the door at work. If kids needed a card pass to get in the school, I don't think anyone would have hiccuped.

And, the even funnier thing is, the passcards could accomplish the same thing. Know when they get on the bus, know when they walk in the door, know when they walk out the door, and no one would have been any the wiser.

Unfortunately, the idiots marketed them as "RFID badges" which makes people think they're being tracked.

Marketing, people... marketing. Why do you think EZ-Pass works so well? It's marketed as a time-saver since you don't have to get cash out at the toll booth... never mind the extra bonus of the state knowing when you got on the Road, how long you traveled, where you were going, when you came back, and how fast you got there for ticket mailing goodness. If it was marketed as a tracking device, no one would get one.
 
2005-02-22 03:52:44 PM
It's disgusting the number of people in here who are saying this is ok. Do you realize that once RFID tracking of children by the government becomes accepted, it is only a matter of time before it happens to adults too?

And shut your dumb farking faces about security, convienience, or any other idiotic excuse. Nothing can justify this bullshiat. It's obviously the Big Brother issue, and no amount of "it makes me feel safer" and "it's so convienient" will change that.

Go fark yourselves you 1984 loving sheeple.
 
2005-02-22 03:53:59 PM
Take intent completely out of the picture and just look at the technology. There is a quantitative difference between human monitoring and electronic monitoring. It allows the government to be more efficient at doing X, X in this case being "monitoring people". Efficiency is a form of power.

So it is bad because it is efficient at something we are already trying to do?

By your logic the city should hire only idiots to take attendance at school, because they are more likely to screw up.

Attendance records are already computerized, how could someone with malicious intent do more damage with this system than the one we currently have in place.


As a parent I think the goal of "monitoring childrens attendance at school" is an important one and would rather it be 100% efficient.
 
2005-02-22 03:54:31 PM
OMG what if the sensors pick up smoke... kids in highschool must smoke in the bathroom. our culture is doomed
 
2005-02-22 03:55:46 PM
I was going to respond to Wake 'n Bake but then I realized he could not possibly be serious.
 
Displayed 50 of 456 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | » | Last | Show all



This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report