If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(ABC)   New HIV virus turns to AIDS in just three months. Trojan stock goes through the roof   (abcnews.go.com) divider line 537
    More: Scary  
•       •       •

24192 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Feb 2005 at 11:51 PM   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



537 Comments   (+0 »)
   

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | » | Last | Show all
 
2005-02-12 03:28:16 AM
Please do not fall for the anti-evolution troll.

He uses a common tactic, the "wondering out loud" approach - which isn't really an argument so you can't refute it. It's just a stupid assumption which isn't borne out by the facts.

"Evolution sure is like an ice-cream cone".

"Evolution seems to be much like a unicycle."\

There, have a few extra pointless bon mots. Why not just make up something even stupider?

Truly you are not looking for intelligent discussion. You are hoping to influence people who do not already know the facts, by throwing out a) misleading statements b) lies c) FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt)

You obviously know how evolution works. You just choose to ignore the facts, and believe that you know the truth - that somehow by you believing (Or is it "knowing") different that you can reshape reality.

Well guess what... your mom was just trying to make you feel better about yourself when she told you that you were a handsome young man. People don't wonder at your amazing wit. You aren't disarming people with your intelligence.

<personal insult removed> trying to reshape the world to fit with your personal idealogy, and in the process you are potentially harming others with misinformation and lies.

Get over yourself.

Please, I implore everyone to simply close this thread down and find a truly reputable source if you have questions about any of the issues discussed within. Your government is not lying to you, the centers for disease control is not lying to you, scientists aren't lying to you. This man is lying to you, and should be disregarded.

Thanks,

Aaron
 
2005-02-12 03:28:33 AM
Quick1 [TotalFark]

And in fact, they HAVE answered. AIDS and other single-celled organisms evolve much faster because they REPRODUCE faster.

---

Then clearly we all should have been wiped out long ago.

Right?

---

Why didn't a slow lifetime long form of HIV show up, and
infect everyone, and kill everyone long ago?

Because HIV hasn't even been around that long? Or, maybe it HAS been around that long, but it only spread lately because of easier international travel.

---

There are reports of antibiotics becoming less and less
effective, almost useless.

How is it that with evolution acting so quickly to kill
people off, that our species, well, all species, weren't
wiped out back soon after they started?

---

It doesn't make it "better" at killing, it evolves to be "better" at AVOIDING DEATH, allowing it more time to do it's thing.

---

And as another poster said, that only took 30 years.

How did any species live much more than a century back
when they started?
 
2005-02-12 03:31:47 AM
male-to-female per contact infectivity was estimated to be 0.0009 (95% CI 0.0005-0.001)

Yup, you read that right. A probability of 9/10,000ths, or about 1 in 1,000 and that's if the man is HIV+ FOR SURE.

Am J Epidemiol. 1997 Aug 15;146(4):350-7. Related Articles, Links

Heterosexual transmission of human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) in northern California: results from a ten-year study.

Padian NS, Shiboski SC, Glass SO, Vittinghoff E.


Let the fear-mongering continue.
 
2005-02-12 03:32:08 AM
jpboaty: Then clearly we all should have been wiped out long ago.

Right?


That does not follow. Explain your reasoning.

How is it that with evolution acting so quickly to kill
people off, that our species, well, all species, weren't
wiped out back soon after they started?


You've never heard of natural resistances?
 
2005-02-12 03:33:01 AM
Is that you, Senator Frist?

Ignorance: Catch the wave!
 
2005-02-12 03:33:37 AM
Brockway:

Yup, you read that right. A probability of 9/10,000ths, or about 1 in 1,000 and that's if the man is HIV+ FOR SURE.


Wow, I knew it was pretty low, but couldn't recall how low. Quite the eye-opener statistic.
 
2005-02-12 03:37:09 AM
This is actually a positive development. The longer people live with HIV, the more chance they have to infect other people. If they develop serious symptoms and die sooner, that means this strain can be isolated and easily eliminated through the quick death of the host.
 
2005-02-12 03:37:53 AM

Essentially impossible to get it orally


AIDS. 2002 Jun 14;16(9):1296-7. Related Articles, Links


Evaluating the risk of HIV transmission through unprotected orogenital sex.

del Romero J, Marincovich B, Castilla J, Garcia S, Campo J, Hernando V, Rodriguez C.

Centro Sanitario Sandoval, Servicio Regional de Salud, Madrid, Spain.

We analysed a cohort of heterosexual HIV- serodiscordant couples with the aim of evaluating the risk of transmission ascribed to unprotected orogenital intercourse. A total of 135 seronegative individuals (110 women and 25 men), whose only risk exposure to HIV was unprotected orogenital sex with their infected partner, registered 210 person-years of follow-up. After an estimated total of over 19,000 unprotected orogenital exposures with the infected partner not a single HIV seroconversion occurred.
 
2005-02-12 03:38:48 AM
Guys! Jpboaty actually *is* thirteen years old, leave him alone already, I'm sure he will grow out of it.
 
2005-02-12 03:38:57 AM
Quick1 [TotalFark]

jpboaty: Then clearly we all should have been wiped out long ago.

Right?

That does not follow. Explain your reasoning.

---

The reports are that within 30 years, AIDS showed up,
and changed from years to make itself known, to now just
30 days for full blown AIDS. The general trend with
antibiotics is that they become less and less effective,
what they're fighting is getting stronger, again, this
is only in the last what, 50 years?

The trend is massive overpowering, yet our bodies don't
change at the same rate.

That rate indifference looks like our species should have
quickly been wiped out as they got stronger and we didn't
compensate over all those eons.

---

You've never heard of natural resistances?

---

What is the limit of the strength of AIDS?

How fast at killing will it get?

How strong?

Why did it wait until now to get all the stronger?

Why didn't it do it back eons ago when we were a new
species?
 
2005-02-12 03:40:39 AM
jpboaty: Why didn't it do it back eons ago when we were a new
species?



Because God wanted to keep us around for a little while longer.
 
2005-02-12 03:43:48 AM
Wow. I just transmutated into a troll. Sherman, fix the wayback. I'm at a loss.

/deep apologies.
 
2005-02-12 03:46:36 AM
I'm going to bed.

jpboaty

We haven't been around for eons. An Eon is a period of 10,000 years. Estimates place the rise of humans as a species as roughly 11,000 or so years ago. You mean all those millenia ago.

As to the rest of your arguments, you are clearly too stupid to grasp the simple concept of evolution. I and numerous others have explained to you, in simple terms, why your line of reasoning is outrageously flawed. If this was a scientific convention, not a Fark thread, you would have been laughed out hours ago for your complete lack of knowledge of elementary biology. People like you are what is wrong with the human gene pool.
 
2005-02-12 03:49:38 AM
jpboaty

Jesus Christ

Have you ever given a good scholarly look at AIDS, rather than browsing whatever websites support your worldview?

AIDS has only been around in human populations for about 30 years. It would take many generations and an almost global exposure to AIDS as a selecting agent, meaning it prevents reproduction, across large populations.

Just so you know. Feline HIV is extremely commomn among lions in Africa, having circulated amoung them for a very long time.

I wonder why they don't all die of AIDS?
 
2005-02-12 03:50:36 AM
It's not Jesus. It's Jesii.
 
2005-02-12 03:53:53 AM
jpboaty

it didn't "wait until now".

It is not guided by some ghostly intelligence and told to speed up, slow down, or play dead. It changes randomnly. Thats how evolution works.
 
2005-02-12 03:54:03 AM
Why do humans just now get killed by atomic bombs?

Why didn't atomic bombs kill us all eons ago when we were a new species?

Can humans evolve to avoid atomic bombs?

HIV is thought to have crossed from a different species to humans at the time that it became an epidemic. Do you disbelieve in SARS also? How about bird flu? Do you think that it is impossible for this to happen?

Your questions are so stupid.

Instead of asking a question (which it is quite obvious that you are attempting to use these questions to lead to assumptions which are not borne out by facts) why not just come out and state what you believe?

Are you simply trolling because you think that God wants you to, or do you believe that you can force the "theory" of evolution out classrooms by asking questions?

Shouldn't you be complaining to the FCC about something you saw on TV tonight?
 
2005-02-12 03:59:20 AM
i bent my wookie
Just so you know. Feline HIV is extremely commomn among lions in Africa, having circulated amoung them for a very long time.

I wonder why they don't all die of AIDS?

---

Exactly, with evolution making AIDS so strong and so quickly,
it only seems to attack human homosexuals first while
rapidly getting stronger and more resistant to treatment.

Meanwhile, cats don't get bothered.

Huh...
 
2005-02-12 04:01:49 AM
jpboaty

i'm trying to be patient here

HIV has been circulating through cat populations for thousands, possibly millions of years. Now it is little more than a nuisance.

We, as a species, have only had a few decades to deal with it. You see where i'm going with this?
 
2005-02-12 04:04:54 AM
jpboaty

And it attacks homosexuals more often because the colon wall has a higher rate of blood absorbtion than the vaginal wall, and it is more prevalent in semen than in vaginal secretions.

It has nothing to due with a supposedly merciful God that just recently decided to come down on a practice that has been around for a very long time
 
2005-02-12 04:05:54 AM
I believe that jpboaty is weaving an intricate web, which is Intelligently Designed, to lead, those caught up in it, to the Truth.
 
2005-02-12 04:18:53 AM
The guy was a homo and a drug user. Two very bad things to be if you are worried about contracting AIDS. Not judging, just saying.

/Not feeling sorry for him.

1. Gay
2. Multiple partners
3. Drug abuser
4. Praying for death?

/All I got...flame on.
 
2005-02-12 04:24:13 AM
i bent my wookie

And it attacks homosexuals more often because the colon wall has a higher rate of blood absorbtion than the vaginal wall, and it is more prevalent in semen than in vaginal secretions.

---

What little I read, said either vaginal fluids, semen,
or blood. So by all considerations, seems like heterosexuals
should have instantly picked it up and died off rapidly.

---

It has nothing to due with a supposedly merciful God that just recently decided to come down on a practice that has been around for a very long time.

---

I'd like to know why cats have it and there's no epidemic
over it. Then all the sudden, homosexuals 30 years ago
get it, then it in 30 years, grows to some super strenght
version that kills people rather quickly.

Why didn't cats have such a thing going on millions of
years ago? Why do we have it going on worldwide now and
not back when the species started?

Evolution seems to be anything you want it to be, any time
you want it. It makes AIDS stronger in men very rapidly
and not weaker or stay the same like in cats. Evolution
doesn't make men fend off AIDS, yet it is said to have
made men, and AIDS... while only making AIDS stronger only
in men, not cats.

Huh... evolution seems to be too smart, too picky.
 
2005-02-12 04:31:07 AM
jpboaty

There probably was a mass epidemic among cat populations in the distant past.

Also, you seem to be working off of the assumption that evolution would work to make a virus more deadly, which decreases the chance of the virus spreading to a knew host. Evolution, rather than the mutation we are seeing here, is a process that favors the most successful reproducer, not the most deadly. Highly pathological viruses like eboli don't
become epidemics because they kill too quickly.

We have to remember also that this is a relatively isolated case involving one man, and is highly unlikely to spread beyond him. Bonus points if you can guess why.

Why do you think the human digstive track is full of bacteria and viruses that are very much alive and kicking?
 
2005-02-12 04:31:47 AM
HIV-like viruses are present in many species. We can find fragments of retroviral DNA inserted into the genomes all over the place, pigs, monkeys, etc. Humans who are resistant to HIV lack specfic cellular recepetors. HIV grabs hold of an adjacent pair of these and swings in towards the cell, ramming an injection tube through the wall of the cell, then injecting its genetic material through the tube. Human's who are resistant lack one of the two places where HIV grabs hold, thus cannot be infected.
 
2005-02-12 04:34:23 AM
Jpboaty

Hint. we've been dealing with them for a very long time. Hope that points you in the right direction

Once a virus has evolved in a population to the point where it doesn't kill and rarely even causes symptoms it has free reign to spread. A virus that kills quickly is shooting itself in the foot.
 
2005-02-12 04:35:53 AM
C'mon, admit it. You really don't want to know this. You want this statement to be good enough to stand as proof of your beliefs, without actually needing you to use FACTS.

If I took the time to answer your question, you would just answer with a question or a throw-away statement.

What do you believe? What is your agenda? Just own up to it - it must be killing you to pretend that there is nothing behind this constant dismissive tone.

Hint: Once upon a time, Europeans brought germs to America which killed off a significant number of the indiginous people. Today, indiginous people no longer die by the thousands from the common cold. Natural selection favored the native Americans who by random chance (let's call it evolution) were resistent to illness, and those people had children and grandchildren who are the people that are alive today and are Native American.

Oh, but you don't have a snappy off the cuff question to throw at this. Just admit that you aren't trying to really argue anything about HIV - admit that you just want to cast doubt on Evolution. Hey, be brave - if you really think that God hates Gay Men, say it. Don't just try to allude to it.

Do gay people make you uncomfortable? Does science? What is it that bothers you about this subject?
 
2005-02-12 04:53:01 AM
guruzim:

What do you believe? What is your agenda? Just own up to it - it must be killing you to pretend that there is nothing behind this constant dismissive tone.

Fark It already exposed him.
 
2005-02-12 05:01:55 AM
Suppose you see a door with a sign on it that says 'If you walk through this door, there is a 20% (or 10% or .1%) chance the lions on the other side will kill you'. Most rational people would think 'Maybe I should stay on this side of the door -- where there is a 0% (0.00000000000001%) chance lions will kill me.'

'Safe Sex' is sex with your lifetime partner -- as God intended. If everyone married a virgin and remained faithful, AIDS would not exist. If you marry a virgin and remain faithful, you will not get AIDS.
 
2005-02-12 05:05:27 AM
The Straight Dope on condoms vs. HIV:
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a940506.html

/You dopes!
 
2005-02-12 05:16:50 AM
Huzzah! Bevets has (finally) arrived!

......and he isn't quoting. What's up with that?
 
2005-02-12 05:36:05 AM
Yay for Bevets!

I would give my first-born to see a debate between jpboaty and bevets.

/Gets popcorn
 
2005-02-12 05:37:59 AM
I do however agree with Bevet's last comment.
 
2005-02-12 05:48:14 AM
The Straight Dope on the odds of HIV transmission:

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_373.html
 
2005-02-12 05:54:26 AM
For jpboaty:

I don't use condoms to protect me from AIDS. I use condoms to prevent pregnancy in my partners, 'cos I don't want to have to shell out 400GBP for a FARKING ABORTION.
 
2005-02-12 05:54:38 AM
It seem that jpboaty wants everyone to stop having sex. There is no way to know if someone has HIV without a test.

So you can not kiss or even touch someone that hasnt been tested, and then only if they tell you the truth about the test.

new pick up line "Are you HIV positive?"
 
2005-02-12 05:58:02 AM
jpboaty:

But but but.... men are made of billions of cells, some
are imperfect, some could be potential killers of the HIV
virus... why didn't any show up to do the deed?

Don't men evolve?

Don't the cells in men evolve?

If not, why not?

Evolution seems to be anything you want it to be.


Okay, this has probably been answered already. I'm way to lazy to go scrolling back through 400+ posts. But I just couldn't resist, so here goes:

(1) "But but but.... men are made of billions of cells, some
are imperfect, some could be potential killers of the HIV
virus... why didn't any show up to do the deed?"

Each virus is a separate, functional entity unto itself. Someone infected by HIV--or any other pathogen, really--is under attack by one ginormous army of invaders that gets bigger with every passing hour.

(2)"Don't men evolve?"

Sure. That's why we have groups of people who share common physical traits.

(3) "Don't the cells in men evolve?"

Sure. But only germ-line mutations get passed on. Non germ-line mutations are changes in "adult" body cells, and unlike germ-line changes, they don't get passed on to offspring.

Each cell of your body is part of a single organism--that organism being "you"--and can't survive or function on its own. The immune cells are pretty much the only ones that actively destroy invaders, you've only got six types, and they're not even the most numerous cells in your body, and they can't reproduce anywhere as fast as a virus can replicate. In spite of this, they work fairly well against a wide variety of pathogens...but not so much against HIV, both because it mutates like a bastard and because it parasitizes the same cells that are sent to kill it.

And the only thing that "evolution" is is genetic change. That's it. No more, no less. And sure, the cells of an adult animal's body (which are more sometimes change their genetics for one reason or another. Unfortunately, in adult cells, the changes are usually to the systems that regulate how they reproduce, and when to die of old age. Someone else here called it right when they called that "cancer." Or, if the cell is damaged enough, it simply dies, as in radiation sickness.

The cells of your immune system aren't going to evolve into faster, stronger cells by themselves any more than your car's engine is going to evolve to feed on hay and then run off to live in the woods, because they don't pass traits onto offspring or live independently. Like the car's parts, they're made by specialized systems--tissues, in this case--elsewhere. You don't change the part without changing the plans the factory uses...and then by building a brand new factory that can use the new plans. So until we find a cure, vaccine or treatment that works and start using it, the virus dies out, or enough people are born with random, slight genetic differences that make them less susceptible to HIV, we're up shiat creek.

(4)"Evolution seems to be anything you want it to be."

Sure, if by that you mean it seems to be the best answer that we can find for why organisms work like they do, look like they do and act like they do, based on what we know about the way the natural world operates. You know, that whole "science" thing. It a theory flexible enough to incorporate the new information that comes in every single day and gets modified as we find out more, unlike the "Talking Snake" theory that never seems to get updated with any new data ;-)
 
2005-02-12 06:04:53 AM
Suppose you see a door with a sign on it that says 'If you walk through this door, there is a 20% (or 10% or .1%) chance the lions on the other side will kill you'. Most rational people would think 'Maybe I should stay on this side of the door -- where there is a 0% (0.00000000000001%) chance lions will kill me.'

No, rational people would think, "Hmm, maybe I'd better see if there's any evidence to corroborate this sign." Only a moran would take it on faith that the sign is true.
 
2005-02-12 06:18:06 AM
Xaignar

The Straight Dope on condoms vs. HIV:
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a940506.html

/You dopes!

---

Good link. Condoms are not 100% effective. Two sources,
one government showed transmission through whatever effect
when condoms are used.

"real-world research shows condoms don't offer 100 percent protection against AIDS."

My own opinion though is, there's some unreported transmission
through kissing and oral sex. Both those allow the possibility
of transmission, and neither tend to involve condoms.
Bleeding gums is common, especially in drug addicts.

Basically, you're TOAST if you do such.
 
2005-02-12 06:19:43 AM
You are forgetting what's on the other side of that door.

Now, most people won't walk through a random lion door they happen to find. In fact, most people will simply take the sign's word for it. There are lots of doors out there, and you can always find one without a lion sign (of course, unmarked doors can have lions behind them too).

But this particular door leads to naked women, who just happen to be attended by moody lions. This door also comes with a very large "XXX Hot Girls Waiting For U!" sign. The lions sign is much less eye-catching. Actually, I think it's written in crayon.

Now, this door isn't hidden in an old castle, either. It's right on Main Street. It's a tourist attraction, really. Free brochures tell you how to get there. There's even arrows painted on the sidewalk. Lots of people talk about how cool that door is, and how everyone who never walked through it is a loser.

Now, I don't think it's odd to see people going through that door.

Is it really a bad idea to have a guy standing near the door, passing our whips and Lion-Taming Chairs (tm) to everyone who wants to go see what's inside?
 
2005-02-12 06:25:44 AM
morbid1

It seem that jpboaty wants everyone to stop having sex. There is no way to know if someone has HIV without a test.
---

I never said that.

It's very common for people to marry, have sex, have kids,
start a life together, etc... what's wrong with that?

I assume that's how you showed up, most people arrive
through that general avenue.

---

So you can not kiss or even touch someone that hasnt been tested, and then only if they tell you the truth about the test.

---

If you asked me, yep. If you're telling me, yep.

---

new pick up line "Are you HIV positive?"

---

You might want to be there when the test results come in
rather than just take someone's word for it.

You are handing over your life to them, it might be worth
a few extra minutes of fussing around.
 
2005-02-12 06:40:08 AM
Didn't read the talkback, I don't have that kind of time:

"While this remains a single case, it is prudent to closely watch for any additional possible cases while continuing to emphasize the importance of reducing HIV risk behavior," Ho said.


Sometimes the jokes just write themselves
 
2005-02-12 06:40:34 AM
Is it really a bad idea to have a guy standing near the door, passing our whips and Lion-Taming Chairs (tm) to everyone who wants to go see what's inside?

Who are you addressing, Dragon, me or Bevets?
 
2005-02-12 06:41:21 AM
guruzim
Oh, but you don't have a snappy off the cuff question to throw at this. Just admit that you aren't trying to really argue anything about HIV - admit that you just want to cast doubt on Evolution. Hey, be brave - if you really think that God hates Gay Men, say it. Don't just try to allude to it.

---

Wasn't the idea that evolution hates gay men??

Evolution seems to be working up a sweat going after gay
men, what with AIDS moving to a new super speed 30 day
full blown AIDS program, you'd think evolution is having
some major agenda going on.

You tell me, what do you think's causing it?
 
2005-02-12 06:45:51 AM
jpboaty:
The more precise answer is, they got AIDS in that their:
*Seamen
* Vaginal fluids
* Blood
* and possibly saliva mixed with one of the above
came in contact with their partner's:
*Seamen
* Vaginal fluids
* Blood
* and possibly saliva mixed with one of the above


While known for their sexual proclivities, I think it's a little heavyhanded to single out sailors as being so responsible for the spread of HIV.

//dontcha mean "baby batter"?
 
2005-02-12 06:46:19 AM
Bevets,

If everyone married a virgin and remained faithful, AIDS would not exist.

Maybe true, maybe not. Sex is only one vector. There are others.

If you marry a virgin and remain faithful, you will not get AIDS.

Not true. You can be as faithful as you want, but if your spouse decides to sleep around, they can bring home the critters and pass them to you.
 
2005-02-12 06:49:15 AM
Wow, if there were ever a good example of how awful sex education is the US, this thread is it. Thank god some people have the sense to actually look up the facts instead of repeating the same stupid misinformation about this issue.
 
2005-02-12 06:52:43 AM
i bent my wookie

Once a virus has evolved in a population to the point where it doesn't kill and rarely even causes symptoms it has free reign to spread. A virus that kills quickly is shooting itself in the foot.

---

Why?

Why doesn't the virus go full bore and wipe out the entire
population?

What's stopping it?

What makes evolution insist on having stuff live on?

We've seen AIDS go forwards to super strength, "all on it's
own", through evolution, what's stopping it from becoming
the all time killer of humanity? What does AIDS care about
itself dying at the same time as it's host?

I submit to you, AIDS doesn't care at all whether or not
it lives on, it's a simple virus, it does the virus
activity, and dies whenever.

The point is, evolution doesn't know anything, and neither
does AIDS, yet AIDS goes after gay men with super strength
and never did up until recently... eons passing... yet in
30 years, it's gone from "never heard of it", to a major
killer... to a super killer... in just 30 years.

In just what, 50 years, antibiotics are becoming ineffective,
why?

Doesn't that say anything to you?

It says to me that any species under that level of attack
over 50 years, they should have been long since wiped out.

What made them stronger, enough to kill, yet we don't all
die off over eons?

There seems to be some overriding "life will continue"
effect going on, that evolution is following while boosting
the strength of AIDS at only a select recent time, and very
rapidly at that.

Evolution seems way too picky.
 
2005-02-12 06:54:07 AM
What world do you live in jp?

I agree it would be a good idea to get tested, but when do you decide to do it?

meet a famale/male and go have the test before you even kiss?

It might work in a perfect world, but starting a relationship doubting what the other person tells you from the begginig is not the best way to go.
 
2005-02-12 06:54:18 AM
BTW, "John P.Boatwright" comes up as a registered Sex Offender in the Scarmento CA database.
 
Displayed 50 of 537 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | » | Last | Show all



This thread is closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »





Report