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(Yahoo) NewsFlash Israel and Palestine officially declare a cease fire. Place your bets on how long this lasts   (story.news.yahoo.com) divider line 353
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8251 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 Feb 2005 at 12:46 PM (9 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»


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B82
2005-02-07 02:14:23 PM
I blame the love child of elchip and Janet Reno!
 
2005-02-07 02:14:25 PM
i hope it doesnt last at all. theres way too many people around...especially in the middle east.
 
2005-02-07 02:14:25 PM
Also it's interesting that the biggest step in peace happens after Arafat croaked. Strange, isn't it.

Don't forget the money vacuum. That's the real reason, I think.

Sadam isn't funding this crap anymore, and Muslim charities have bigger fish to fry - the tsunami, and also the terrorism in Iraq (bombing Jews is so Nineties... bombing Iraqis and US soldiers is the new hawtness). No money for terror = less reason to keep on the same path.

Think about it. They had no reason to change their ways. They got a crapload of money to keep doing the same thing, and if there was peace, the money would go away for both Fatah and Hamas - so why invest in peace?

And Arafat's death means nothing unless Abu Mazen can prove he's less corrupt, and the PA is a viable alternative to Hamas (who pretty much run most of the infrastructure of the occupied territories b/c of Fatah corruption). I have hope for Abu Mazen, but I can only be so idealistic.
 
2005-02-07 02:15:18 PM
Elvis Nixon,

How the heck am I a racist? Why don't you stop vomiting party lines and think for once? I have nothing against jewish people, or middle eastern people. I have huge problems with the State of Israel, and whatever Palestine is. Both use inhumane tactics, and we should support neither.

Now, please, explain to me how I'm a racist.
 
2005-02-07 02:15:46 PM
Jokepro, does the IDF deliberately TARGET innocent civilians?

Sometimes they do. Check out the pictures and articles on B'tselem's site. So, do you consider an apartment building full of innocent civilians a valid military target? Imagine if the US blew up entire buildings just to get at a criminal. Would that be acceptable to you?

Check out the statistics. They clearly show that Israelis are the ones doing most of the killing of innocent civilians.
 
2005-02-07 02:15:54 PM
jokepro: Of course! Will you condemn the crimes against humanity routinely committed by Israel?

Absolutely. Crimes against humanity are wrong. The Israelis are definitely not innocent in this conflict, nor are the Palestinians. I can't really take anyone seriously that blindly support one side over the other.
 
2005-02-07 02:16:27 PM
jokepro:

You obviously don't know what you are talking about. B'tselem is a human rights group run by Israeli Jews. You should do a little fact checking before you start running off at the mouth.


As someone who has been living in Israel for close to 30 years i believe that i know a little bit more about Betselem than you, good sir.

Also, for your information: some of the biggest rabid pro-palestinians happen to be Israeli jews. Take Uri Avneri for example.
 
2005-02-07 02:17:32 PM
Jokepro,

Define "innocent" civilans. If those civilians are supporting an unjust war, then they're not innocent. If they're living in or benefiting from the settlements, then they're not innocent.
 
2005-02-07 02:18:01 PM
Why is it that the ethnicities being wiped out in Bosnia did not get their own state?
 
2005-02-07 02:18:42 PM
JC Superstar
If those civilians are supporting an unjust war, then they're not innocent.

BOMB HOUSTON!

oh hell, nobody would notice anyway.
 
2005-02-07 02:19:31 PM
As someone who has been living in Israel for close to 30 years i believe that i know a little bit more about Betselem than you, good sir.


 
2005-02-07 02:20:40 PM
JC Superstar

It's possible I'm wrong, as I don't know as much as I should on the matter, but isn't the land on which Israel builds settlements territory that was taken during the war between Israel and Jordan, Syria and Egypt?

I always found it odd that these three countries picked a fight, lost, and then demanded their land back...would they have given Israeli land back to the Jews if they won?

But then, I also find it odd how Israel was just plopped right down where it was after WWII.

Maybe someone can correct me/further explain it all.
 
2005-02-07 02:20:46 PM
"So, do you consider an apartment building full of innocent civilians a valid military target? Imagine if the US blew up entire buildings just to get at a criminal. Would that be acceptable to you?"

IF the person was a major military target, yeah, it'd be acceptable to me. War sucks. People die in them. But refusing to kill your enemy because he's using his neighbors as human shields is a good way to end up dead.
 
2005-02-07 02:21:12 PM
I'm very surprised there's no way to EMP the border areas so any explosives traveling in either direction detonate prematurely.
 
2005-02-07 02:21:14 PM
And as i said before, Betselem is a hardcore pro-palestinian group, their reports should be taken with a grain of salt.

If that's the case, then the US media should be taken with an entire salt lick. Pro-human rights is not the same as pro-Palestinian.

If you actually bothered to look at their site you would clearly see that they also document violence committed by Palestinians. They are opposed to ALL violations of human rights, not just those committed by Israel. Do yourself a favor, just visit their site and take a few minutes to educate yourself.
 
2005-02-07 02:21:21 PM
2 days.. Israel will fire first or move the so-called fence further into Palestine.
 
2005-02-07 02:22:12 PM
I'll take March 31st.

/the comments in this thread only server to validate my thoughts.
 
2005-02-07 02:22:18 PM
Benson nails it:
 
2005-02-07 02:23:03 PM
heliosc - While historically you may be correct, I don't think that it applies entirely to this situation. You didn't address the cause of the land dispute.


Israel being more powerful removed and displaced whole towns and sent them to camps.....*this sounds oddly familiar* because they claimed the land as theirs.

Once in the camps, the people were lied to and told they would go home at some point *Again, sounds familiar*

Then they bulldozed their towns or took their homes and the Palestinians built new homes in the internment camps.

Add some more bulldozing, and lies. Then add ample amounts of religion, mix in some old stories to taste and VOILA!

Powederkeg!

Oppression, lack of education, greed, and religion.

I really have a hard time caring about much now. We get spoon fed our pabulum news anyway, so really, does it matter? We try and fool ourselves that we are advanced and civilized, yet the human race has butchered each other by the MILLIONS in the past century alone....we haven't stopped yet.

/yes I know there is much more to the Israeli and Palestinian equation then that, but no one wants a novel, It's Fark! Home of the ADHD attentio.....HEY LINT!!
 
2005-02-07 02:26:21 PM
IF the person was a major military target, yeah, it'd be acceptable to me. War sucks. People die in them. But refusing to kill your enemy because he's using his neighbors as human shields is a good way to end up dead.

So if a suspected murderer took refuge in your apartment building, you would be willing to sacrifice your life and the life of your family to "execute" someone that hasn't even been convicted yet. I guess you consider due process and outdated concept. Perhaps you would be happier in a country that allows the military to serve as judge, jury, and executioner. You obviously have no respect for this country's judicial process.
 
2005-02-07 02:27:18 PM
Sinister Minister,

Apparently, the war just isn't over yet. When you occupy territories though force, expect long term resistance.
 
2005-02-07 02:27:38 PM
jokepro

And you obviously have no concept of "war".

Due process. Ha haha!!

Good one!
 
2005-02-07 02:27:57 PM
J.G. Longbotham


They also trade our weapons secrets that they are not supposed to sell, such as laser-guided artillery technology, to people like China.


Wrong. Actually, if you recall the Harpy and Falcon affairs (both 100% Israeli developed weapons systems), the US had Israel refrain from selling those weapons systems to China, and Israel complied, even though there was only Israeli technology in those systems.



examples, please


The Harpy and the Falcon. The Nautilus. C-130 chaff & flaring. F-4E improved avionics. F-16 improved avionics.... Go to Janes for more. Much more.



Why is that our job? And if you think that Isreal is anything other than a thinly veiled theocracy, you're wrong.


Well, every administration since Roosevelt said so. You might want to vote for someone who does not hold with that. If you can find that person.

Oh, the US is by far more religious than Israel. I don't think 92% of Israelis believe in Angels (actually, 80% say they don't really believe in God), and 80% don't think their head of state should have a "good relationship with God".

And you can rent pr0n at Blockbusters, and see boobies on TV.


This has a bit of merit--except that it was Iran they bombed, not Iraq. They haven't kept anyone from going nuclear.


Now I know you are completely ignorant. Israel bombed the Osirak reactor in Iraq, 1981.
 
2005-02-07 02:28:18 PM
I sure do wish they would make it last this time.
 
2005-02-07 02:28:26 PM
Jokepro, "due process" doesn't apply in a WAR, asshat. Shouldn't you be off guarding a deathcamp somewhere?


http://www.likud.nl/human%20shield.jpg
http://www.krysstal.com/images/iraq_05.jpg

NSFW
 
2005-02-07 02:28:44 PM
Hey, that was a strawman wasn't it??

I'm so observant. heh
 
2005-02-07 02:30:30 PM
Jokepro,

You're comparing apples to oranges. Justice within an organized society is one thing. War is another entirely. The Isralis and Palestinians are at war. Both have committed repeated acts of war. The rules change.
 
2005-02-07 02:30:57 PM
Wow. Jed Bartlet pulled it off, didn't he?
 
2005-02-07 02:32:03 PM
Well, let's see. I looked out the back door of the office and from what I can tell, there were no four horsemen riding around.

No swarms of locusts, either.

Put me down for a week on this one.
 
2005-02-07 02:32:47 PM
Put me down until the next suicide bombing. I really hope that doesn't happen, though. It seems like the two leaders are coming to their senses- the trick will be if the citizens do as well.
 
2005-02-07 02:33:21 PM
I'd give it a fortnight.
 
2005-02-07 02:33:58 PM
jokepro:

If you actually bothered to look at their site you would clearly see that they also document violence committed by Palestinians. They are opposed to ALL violations of human rights, not just those committed by Israel. Do yourself a favor, just visit their site and take a few minutes to educate yourself.

I bothered to look at their site many times. I'm not saying that they are like the countless palestinian propaganda sites, some of their reports are very accurate. However, they have a biased view on the conflict. For example they report about houses being demolished or shootings etc but they forget to mention why that happened (houses used for smuggling weapons,terrorism, palestinians shooting from a large crowd to use them as a human shield).

Also they receive information from the palestinians, which can be described as the opposite of truth. For example a day or so a go a palestinian girl was shot and killed, the one who did it was some idiot palestinian who shot in the air as a sign of celebration (it's a common habit over there). The palestinians, of course, blamed the israelis. Actually there was one brave palestinian who admitted it was a shooting by mistake from the idiot i mentioned, i believe he was never heard from again.
 
2005-02-07 02:34:01 PM
Jokepro, "due process" doesn't apply in a WAR, asshat. Shouldn't you be off guarding a deathcamp somewhere?

The Geneva Conventions apply in war. Perhaps you should read them sometime.

Also, what's with the deathcamp comment. Just because I value human rights, somehow you think I would condone a deathcamp. That's absurd. The only people I hear condoning the use of concentration and death camps are dumb rednecks taking about rounding up and killing all the Arabs and Muslims.
 
2005-02-07 02:34:26 PM
JC Superstar
I disagree, we should just let them be. If we stop aiding Israel, they'll have to start treating palestinains as humans.
Not sure what youre disagreeing with. You disagree that the US should press hard to help them find peace now? I think we are obligated considering our historical part in creating todays situation and our character as leaders in freedom.

I do agree that the power and stability imbalance must be addressed. If Israel receives less financial and military hardware support from the US, their tune will have to change. But that will destabilize Israel. Can two destabilized nations find peace? Dont you really need to build stability and power into Palestine before it can sustain governance? Once Palestine is a stable peer of Israel, peace is a possibility.
 
2005-02-07 02:34:26 PM
The Palestinians need your help, Jokepro. Apparently, Rachael Corrie's skull wasn't QUITE thick enough to disable that Israeli bulldozer tread as it rolled over her. I hear they're looking for volunteers for the next wave. If you're not against violence, I'm sure they'd gladly provide you with a suicide bomb belt and a nice Israeli target to attack....

/gotta keep the Gene Pool as clean as possible...
 
2005-02-07 02:34:48 PM
Everyone's always trying to come up with an analogy to describe the Middle East situation, here's mine:

Suppose Massachusetts, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, New Hampshire, and Pennsylvania, funded by Texas, Virginia and California, all declared war on Rhode Island. Then suppose further that Rhode Island kicked all their asses. For the next 20 years these states continue to occasionally invade Rhode Island and get their butts kicked for their trouble. Then they come up with an idea. A group of ex-pat New Yorkers who vacation in Newport suddenly declares that they're the true founders of Rhode Island and are entitled to all the land surrounding Naragansett Bay, with half of Providence as their capital.

I'd feel a lot better about that analogy were it not for the fact that 100% of the non-Americans and 85% of the Americans will have no idea of the geography I've just described.
 
2005-02-07 02:35:06 PM
I think a week or two is pretty optimistic.

I give it to the weekend at most.
 
2005-02-07 02:35:50 PM
JC Superstar

Sure, but it's not like they just walked into random territory and started building on it. It's land that they seized during a war in which they were not the aggressor. They retained the land to act as a buffer, seeing how they are surrounded by countries that are (or at least until very recently) actively, or supporting those who are actively working towards their destruction. To say they should just give it back and not build on it would put them in a similar state of affairs they were in just before the war.

Like I said, my facts may be off, as I don't know the situation extremely well, but this is how it all seems to me.
 
2005-02-07 02:36:06 PM


/Sorry, but its true
 
2005-02-07 02:36:15 PM
jokepro:

Check out the statistics. They clearly show that Israelis are the ones doing most of the killing of innocent civilians.

Proportionally, though, the Palestinians kill many more innocent civilians than military personnel.

Doesn't make either side right, but I'm just sayin'.
 
2005-02-07 02:36:17 PM
jokepro

Um. Take your own advice and read the Geneva Conventions. See who it exactly applies to during war.
 
2005-02-07 02:37:38 PM
"The Geneva Conventions apply in war. Perhaps you should read them sometime."

Same deal for you. Most importantly, read the bit about who qualifies as a POW and who doesn't. What's the suicide bomber's insignia recognizable at a distance? What about the prohibition on using civilians as human shields?

You want to talk about violations of the Geneva Convention? Look at how the war has been conducted by the Palestinians...please tell us which segment of the Geneva Conventions permit the targeting of civilian targets with no military value by suicide bombers? Thanks.
 
2005-02-07 02:37:39 PM
11 days
 
2005-02-07 02:37:57 PM

jokepro --
There really isn't a working judicial system within the scope of the Palestinian Authority. There's plenty of 'street justice', 'tho -- directed against anybody accused of collaborating, and without the niceties of a trial.


You don't have to go back very far to find incidents of PA 'policemen' being complicit in attacks against Israel, such as letting armed militants through their halves of checkpoints in order to attack the Israelis, whereas it's practically unheard of for them to take any significant action against the militants which essentially control Palestinian foreign policy through their actions.

 
2005-02-07 02:39:09 PM
Peace?
BAH!
Who profits from peace?
 
2005-02-07 02:40:07 PM
BTW, I'm not terribly fond of Israel. I just really don't like Palestinian terrorists, or the causes that utilize them.
 
2005-02-07 02:40:31 PM
clambam

I'd feel a lot better about that analogy were it not for the fact that 100% of the non-Americans and 85% of the Americans will have no idea of the geography I've just described.

I understand what you're talking about. I'm an ex-pat New Yorker.
 
2005-02-07 02:40:44 PM
Zoultan,

Our "character as leaders in freedom" is a non-existant quality made up for national pride. We've supported the shah in Iran, Saddam Hussein in Iraq, Augusto Pinochet in Chile, Anastasio Somoza Debayle in Nicaragua. etc.

I love the US, but we've supported more than our fair share of unjust dictatorships.

I think that we should stop playing daddy. Obviously, neigher Israel or Palestine wants peace bad enough, so why should we fund their wars?

It's not our job to stabilize Israel. They've had decades to become stable, if our breast feeding is still necessary, then that's their problem.
 
2005-02-07 02:42:19 PM

/amazed to be the Weeners this
 
2005-02-07 02:42:42 PM
2005-02-07 02:39:09 PM RockIsDead
Peace?
BAH!
Who profits from peace?


Ferengi Rules of Acquisition

34. War is good for business.
35. Peace is good for business.
 
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